Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: This is Subspace Radio and I am Rob.

Kevin: Hailing frequencies open, Rob.

It's Kev here.

Rob: Good to see you.

We're here to talk about the latest
episode of Star Trek that is out there in

the ether, and it is season three, episode
four of Lower Decks: "Room for Growth".

Kevin: That title already
sounds dirty to me.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Our listeners will have
probably glanced at their episode

list and seen that the topic
of today is sex in Star Trek.

So welcome.

Welcome to whatever this is going to be.

Rob: It is a red letter day.

It is a red banner day.

It is…

Kevin: It's a red something.

Rob: It's red tube.

It's all tied into one.

Yes, finally.

I got a positive affirmation
from Kevin Yank in our notes.

He just put, "Okay, fine."

Kevin: They did it.

Last week, I said, "Lower Decks, you know
what you have to do," and they did it.

Rob: And they brought it so
hardcore in this episode.

Finally, I have been so patiently
waiting for this, and I assume

you have been as well, listeners.

I'm sure, Kevin, you have spent long,
long hours, long evenings lying…

Kevin: You can't imagine how long.

Rob: Oh, I can have a vague idea.

But before we move on to this
hot and spicy topic, let's

have a look at Room for Growth.

An episode involving an
A and B plot, as always.

And so Ruthford was sent off with
the entire engineering crew after

yet another disastrous possession.

Those old things.

Yes, the captain has been
possessed by an ancient mask

Kevin: An ancient mask situation.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Have you seen that episode
of Star Trek: The Next Generation

that that was referencing?

Rob: I had not.

Kevin: It is not the
most memorable one, that.

We're talking season
seven, episode 17, "Masks".

I don't mind it.

For the, the very trail end of TNG,
where they were scraping the bottom

of the barrel for ideas before they
hit the high points of All Good

Things, they went through a couple
of weaker episodes like Masks.

Rob: There's certain cliched episodes
you need to have within a sci-fi show.

So there's always the body swap episode.

There's always the sexy episode.

There's always an episode where
a mask is involved in some

sort of way shape or form.

Kevin: This episode almost made
my list of mixing it up episodes.

When we talked to a little while
back of cases where characters became

possessed or played another character.

In Masks, Commander Data puts
on a mask and becomes this God

who is uh, rebuilding the ship.

And Picard manages to, at the last minute,
find another mask in the library computer

and put it on and talk Data down by role
playing another God in their mythos.

Rob: So much theater.

Kevin: Data was the God of the sun, so
Picard came in as the God of the moon

and said, it's time to go to sleep sun.

It's as dramatic as it sounds.

Rob: I dunno what you're talking about.

That sounds like 45 minutes
of pure Star Trek gold.

Kevin: I don't hate it, but uh, not,
not everyone's favorite episode.

Room for Growth, I'm seeing
framed as a show about nothing.

I've seen a few people compare it
to an episode of Seinfeld, where

nothing big or monumental happens.

This is a character sitcom episode.

Rob: Yeah, leaning into the sitcom-ey
type of comedy elements of it.

And all those big, sweeping science
fiction elements are put on hold.

And it is pretty much just
a social relationship thing.

The antagonization between the
Delta and the Beta teams, there.

That's a very sitcom-ey type thing to do.

And we're here to relax and we
can't relax because we're engineers!

And having the – I'm jumping ahead to
the ending – and to have an ending where

our heroes don't win is very much out of…

Kevin: That's very Seinfeld.

Rob: Where you've got a good sitcom
where you let your characters fail.

Kevin: They reveal all their fatal
flaws, and they all fail because of it.

But at least they're stuck
in it together at the…

Rob: And the twist where they
think they've learned a lesson,

but then they're actually betrayed.

Kevin: I'm wondering if we ever see
Delta Shift again, because at the moment

where they were making nice in the swamp
below Hydroponics, waiting for the door

to open, and they were becoming friends.

I was like, oh, this is a nice
way to end the Delta Shift epic.

And then Delta shift
says "Snooze, you lose!"

and runs through the door.

And I'm like, oh, does
that mean it's back on?

Or is that just a button on the end
of the story, and we've actually done

everything there is to do with Delta…?

Rob: Yeah, I mean, the Delta Shift trio
were quite unremarkable in the way of…

Kevin: They are literally
palette-swapped versions of our

main characters, that's the gag.

Rob: Yeah.

And, but not even in a heightened
way or type of exaggerated way.

But yeah, and they have like odd
tropes that would only appear

in like a sitcom or a comedy.

Things like they start, tripping balls.

Kevin: I'm in an egg.

I don't want to hatch.

Rob: That was a beautiful moment.

And I fell a little bit
in love with Mariner then.

Kevin: Oh, she's brought
you completely around!

Rob: Just the moment how vulnerable she
was when Tendi goes, look, I'm sorry, I

got the out of your egg and then Mariner's
there going, it was so warm in there.

And I went, oh, that's

beautiful.

Kevin: chin thing That is amazing
that they brought that out

uh, in this kind of animation.

Rob: I'm.

Pretty much on the Mariner Starship
now it was a beautiful moment.

Kevin: I also noticed, that the
references have started to shift

from references to Star Trek canon
into references to Lower Decks canon.

Rob: Yes.

And that, yeah, that's always a good shift
when you are, you've created your own…

Kevin: Yeah.

Your own bubble.

Rob: …own bubble.

Kevin: I don't think they'll ever
get away from that entirely, but

when they come into the swamp in
hydroponics, did you see the little

skeleton stuck beneath the branches?

That was a dead Doopler from the
episode An Embarrassment of Dooplers

in season two, episode five, when
the ship got overtaken by all of

those replicating life forms, that
was one of them stuck under there.

I had to look it up.

I can't take credit for knowing that
at a glance, but yeah, the site gags

the references, like last episode,
someone said shenanigans, and then

there was immediately a pile of
references to previous episodes.

And I, I love that this show is
standing on its own two feet.

Now I, I don't need this to
be the show of references.

Rob: So yeah, we've talked about
it, but we haven't said whether,

did you enjoy this episode?

Kevin: Oh!

Yeah, I loved this!

I love this episode for the fact, if
we had not already talked about what

a stereotypical Lower Decks episode
is, I might this week be making the

argument for this being one of it.

Earlier in the season we said the
stereotypical thing that stood out to

us about Grounded was that something
big and momentous happened off screen

while our characters were here in
the background and we stayed in the

background with them while that went on.

This episode did something I
would argue might be even more

stereotypically Lower Decks.

It told a story in the quiet
moments, the mundane moments, the

most of the time in which nothing
exciting happens on a starship.

Rob: And it's very much the case
of the Cali class ship is the

lower deck of the Federation.

So we've been dealing with the lower decks
on a ship, like with Boimler and Mariner,

but this was an episode where not even
the Cali class are at that higher level.

So even the captain's dealing
with mundane stuff like her

engineers just won't take a break.

So it was very much the
ultimate sitcom sci-fi.

So it's what I love about Red Dwarf is
like just, you know, scumbags in space.

You know, they're the lower echelon
of humanity, let alone, sci-fi tropes,

which for me is always endearing.

I always, the American style of sitcom is
always about who's the quickest wit who's

the smartest, who's the most attractive.

Where comedy for me, I much prefer
that more relatable sense of

struggling and how, sometimes you
don't get everything your way.

Kevin: The story of the engineers being
told to relax is on the one hand, I

think it's perhaps the weaker part of
this episode, just in pure entertainment

value, but it does tell, I would say
an insightful story about burnout.

Like the way to treat burnout is not to
take away the thing that gives someone

a purpose for showing up to work.

Rob: And it did supply two
of my favorite gags as well.

So when the captain screams at one
of the engineers, "Shut up Meredith!"

And also later when Ruthford finally
comes in with all the engineering crew

and goes, stop right now what you're
doing and the dog, the puppy looks at it.

And he goes, "Oh no, not you little puppy.

Keep on puppin!"

So…

Kevin: Let's talk sex.

Rob: Look, not only do we have the subtle
attempt, but it's still a little bit of

objectification of two of our female crew…

Kevin: Yeah, not sex.

Just maybe sexualization,
but not actual sex.

I think there is, there's
interesting stuff to say

about actual sex in Star Trek.

Rob: Yeah.

There was, of course the
reveal of Ransom's kink.

Kevin: Kink or survival
technique for what sounds like

a very traumatic episode in the

Rob: Wow.

You're very beautiful.

Kevin.

I like how you, look, no kink
shaming here, okay, let's—

Kevin: No, I am not judging him for…

Rob: No, no.

And that's what I— I say it's a kink, you
say it's a way of dealing with trauma.

And I really enjoy that, that we've
created this safe environment.

Kevin: Horses for courses.

Rob: But yes— Is it Trilvia?

Kevin: Churro-livia.

Rob: Churro-livia.

Yeah.

Hilarious.

But the big thing is we had the
entire holodeck fantasy of our

doctor and our chief of security.

Kevin: T'Ana and Shaxs, they have been
the, in the margins, will-they-won't-they

recurring story for a while now.

We've overheard them professing
their love for each other.

Rob: In their little scene of
The Naked Now homage, she was

just attached to his naked body.

Kevin: Yeah.

And this one pays it off and
it's fun because our characters

are both repulsed, but also are,
they're like, oh, good for them.

I'm glad they got there.

They're happy for them.

Rob: And there's a beautiful line
where he says I died and we didn't

even, we haven't even talked about it.

Kevin: Uh, there, there
is a whole bunch of stuff.

Rob: Put those away Diane.

Put those away.

Kevin: Oh god, Diane
is her kinky sex name?

It's in 15 seconds that this
show really runs away with it.

And it's like back to back lines.

"You love crime play."

I love the idea that crime is such
a foreign concept in the Star Trek

world that they do it as a kink.

They play it on the holodeck as a kink.

Rob: And that's what I really love
at that moment where they walk

in and they can't even pronounce
bank, which I, I, I find A bahnk.

Kevin: Here in the bahnk.

But yeah, I would dare say we're about
to talk about sex in Star Trek as a

whole, but right here in Lower Decks, the
comedy cartoon, I would argue is the most

healthy, sex positive, grown up look at
two adults having sex that we have ever

seen in the entire franchise history.

Rob: Look, especially within recent
years, especially within a lot of

the new iterations of Star Trek, they
haven't really been able to identify

the healthiest way to present it.

It's been forced in or pressured in,
or made more of a statement as opposed

to just blending it into the story.

Um, whereas with this, it was very
much a case of they went all in.

It's called crime play.

It is all this, but it is healthy.

There's they're stopping
what they're doing.

They're talking it through, led
by the male wanting to initiate

the conversation, which is,
mixing up the gender stereotypes.

Kevin: She's going, "We'll do the nasty on
the counter and make the hostages watch."

Rob: Exactly.

But no, there was no frustration
in her or anything like that.

It was just a case of all right,
this is what we need to work through.

And it was done in this
really healthy, positive way.

And it was effectively
getting them back on track to…

Kevin: They worked through it.

And then Delta shift told us
later they were making something.

Rob: They were makin somethin!

So yeah, I have a very particular view of
it, but what's your, Kevin, what's your

view of sex within the Star Trek universe?

Kevin: I like to pick moments.

And I'll take us to a first moment.

And I am quite confident it is the
earliest moment that we will touch

on today, because it is way back
in Star Trek, the original series.

Rob: Yeah, okay.

Kevin: Captain Kirk obviously
had a reputation with the ladies.

We often see him seducing
people or being seduced.

And it's all great, but it is
usually little more than a suave

seduction ending in a kiss.

This episode I'm thinking of though
is the first time that, although only

implied, it was made very clear to anyone
paying attention that the deed was done.

Rob: Is that what the episode's called?

Kevin: It should have been.

This is season three, episode 13 of Star
Trek, the original series, Wink of an Eye.

Rob: So this is right near
the end of its original run.

Kevin: Yeah, a famously weak season.

And even, I would say this is a
stronger episode in season three.

It is worth watching.

It has an interesting sci-fi idea in it,
and our characters are mostly themselves.

Uh, in this episode, the ship
gets taken over by aliens who

have accelerated to such a speed
that they move imperceptively.

Like, our characters can't
see them, they move that fast.

And anyone who drinks the water
on this planet gets accelerated

to their speed as well.

The aliens want to take over the
ship, putting it into deep freeze

and use the crew of the Enterprise
as breeding stock, because their

race is sterile, a side effect of
their transition to high speed life.

And so Kirk, obviously, is targeted
first as the most attractive,

eligible bachelor on the ship.

Rob: Of course.

Kevin: The female leader of the
species accelerate him to their

speed and immediately starts
macking on him, and going "What?

Forget about your ship!

They'll be fine without you.

Come to my bedroom!"

On the one hand, like it's a little
rapey in, in our modern standards.

But on the other hand, it's also very
empowering to this female leader where

she has a member of her crew that is
obviously in love with her, but they

can't propagate the species together.

And so when he says, "Why do you
have to fall so head-over-heels

for this Captain Kirk?"

She said, "Allow me the dignity
of liking the person that I have

to choose in order to do my duty."

And it is really great to see like,
way back in the sixties, this female

leader own her sexuality, even in
this kind of twisted sci-fi story.

Now, the moment that makes this
episode especially worth talking

about though, is that at a certain
point Kirk pretends to give in and

come around to her way of thinking.

And he starts making out with her in
his quarters and it gets pretty hot and

heavy, and then it fades to commercial.

And when they return from commercial,
he's sitting on the edge of

his bed, putting on his boots.

And this is how they slipped
implied sex past the censors.

Apparently like this is a famous thing
that if the censors had been paying

attention, they would've struck that.

They would've said not even
implied in our primetime television

here, but they got it past.

And I would say, when I first saw
this episode, I was young enough

for that to go right over my head.

But this is the clearest time and
earliest time that our captain

got it on with an alien female.

And it was right there for
anyone paying attention.

Rob: There you go.

And there's some positive things in there
as well, especially from a quite loaded,

and that's my understatement of the year,
loaded era of, perceptions of women and

minorities and all that type of stuff.

So to have a strong
female positive approach—

Kevin: The character and the
act, neither of them are shamed.

If anything, they are
celebrated and empowered in this

story, which is really cool.

Rob: And especially like considering if
you rewatch The Cage, the rejected pilot,

there's a fantasy moment where Pike is
with the Orion, green-skinned dancer,

and it implies that he's like in the
frontier, trading off exotic slave girls.

And you're going ah, right.

Okay.

This is very unhealthy.

So to have, within that same decade,
an episode of the actual series,

once it's got up showing that type
of positivity is a really good thing.

Kevin: But this still nevertheless falls
prey to the pattern that I see for most of

Star Trek history, where Star Trek needed
to be a PG show that kids could watch in

the family room, and therefore sex had to
be abstracted or implied or worked around…

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: …a way that the kiddies
would be oblivious to it.

Rob: Yes, but it doesn't, but it also,
it's still leaned into quite a lot.

Kevin: It was still there,
and it was a plot point.

Rob: This is a good
place for me to come in.

I've always looked upon sex
within Star Trek as weird.

That like Star Trek doesn't
know what to do with sex.

It's a family show, but we also
want to explore deeper themes, and

cross many concepts and theories of
science and all that type of stuff.

But when it comes down to,
just, getting it on, they're

not sure what to do with it.

So it's either like The Naked Now or
The Naked Time or stuff like that, where

it's this disease and it's this threat.

And if you're exploring your sexuality
or your inhibitions are being

lost, this is something dangerous.

And so like a zipping down of the
uniform is a sign of the whole society

of the Federation is falling apart.

And if you do it, you die.

Sorta like the tropes of a horror
movie: you have sex, you die.

If you stay a virgin, you live to the end.

Or you go into the mirror universe,
where they're all in tight leather,

and they're sexually liberated
and they're in the evil universe.

So like in Deep Space Nine, Kira
Nerys in the parallel universe is

like the ruler of the ship, and she
has multiple lovers and it's implied

that she's a little bit bi as well.

Kevin: It's a bit like smoking.

You know, for a while there, if
a character was smoking, you knew

immediately they were the villain of
the movie and it's the vice of it…

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: …thing that they fixated on.

Rob: Yes.

So, it always was implied that it's, yeah.

It's either a plot point or it's an
awkward gag at the end, where Paris and

Janeway have evolved into futuristic slugs
and they possibly had sex, but they're

not aware of it, but they kind of are.

And so it's that weird type of
dynamic and I'm there going, is there

anything healthy within the Star
Trek universe when it comes to sex?

Cuz then when we talked about Deep Space
Nine, it's all caught up in nineties

politics, which is, if you look at
it, sexual politics in the nineties

were still incredibly conservative
when it came to representation.

And so ooh the big controversial moment
where we have a same sex kiss between

Dax and her former lover or something,
they put in so much sci-fi babble

about going well in that particular
version the incarnation was a male

and all this type of stuff and all the
type of layers upon layers instead of

just letting it be a healthy thing.

It's let's not talk about sex, but when
we do it it's something nasty or evil.

Kevin: You mentioned The Naked Now,
and I do wanna touch on that, because

I think that is probably the most
memorable character beat based around sex.

Data losing his virginity to Tasha Yar.

And it is played so many different
ways, every time they come back to it.

The actual event in The Naked Now
is so cringy, because yes, they

are both or at least Tasha is
incapacitated with this drunken…

Rob: She slicked her hair back.

Kevin: Oh, she's licked her hair back.

She showed her under boobs and… and she,
she welcomes Data into her den, checking

if he is fully functional along the way.

But the, the most awkward part of
it is the speech of vulnerability

she gives first, saying, I had to
stay just ahead of the rape gangs as

I was growing up as a little girl.

And now what I want in my partner is
tenderness, is safety and in a way, like

I can almost see what they were going for.

It is sweet that this woman who has sexual
trauma in her past would need the safety

of, effectively, a sex toy that would do
her no harm and would give her exactly

what she asked for with no judgment.

Data would be the safest
partner for someone who had

sexual trauma in their lives.

It's almost there, but they play the
sexual trauma for titillation, I feel.

There is no more charitable an audience
for Star Trek than me, so I want it to

be okay, but rewatching that yesterday
I was like, nah, it is not okay.

She comes in in a state of undress,
in a state of sexualization, and

immediately talks about her rapers.

When they remastered this show,
I wish they could have done a

couple of rewrites in the process.

Rob: There's two words that you
don't really want to have combined

in any conversation, let alone
Star Trek, you don't want the words

rape and gang mentioned in any way.

Kevin: No.

Not in a scene that ends
the way that scene ended.

Certainly.

Rob: Yeah, that's done at the
start of a scene into tenderness.

Like even within this modern incarnation
of Star Trek starting with Discovery,

there's been implications of one of
the characters who was a Klingon and

has gone through horrible surgery
to become human and implications

there about sexual dynamic there
and manipulation and harassment.

So yeah, getting to Lower Decks
the relationship within a holodeck

program in black and white has finally
shown us a healthy approach to all

different types of relationships
that don't just have to be monogamous

within our view of a man and a woman.

Kevin: I don't necessarily need
to see a couple having healthy sex

in order to believe that they do.

I don't need it to be shown.

Rob: No.

Kevin: But when they use sex
as a plot point, you're right.

Their batting average is a little
low in terms of when does it seem

healthy and realistic versus when
is it just a little off kilter?

When are the writers just a
little afraid to go there or

just a little weird about it?

Rob: Yeah.

Like it's the creation of the Betazoid
race, and their culture, and how very

much sexually liberated they are.

Like the wedding ceremonies are
done naked from what I remember.

Deanna Troi's mom, obviously played
by the great Majel Barrett, and her

appearances on Deep Space Nine for
me were really interesting because my

favorite character obviously is Odo.

And so his evolution over seven seasons
is always great to watch, but her

first appearance, I believe it's season
one, she perceives Odo from the point

of view of she's attracted to him.

And she brings out a side of him that,
he hasn't even really been aware of.

He's got feelings for Kira, but his
sexuality is something he hasn't

really explored or understood.

And so to have a strong, confident, older
woman who is confident in her sexuality…

Kevin: Do they ever get over the line
where that is not smirked at, by the

rest of the cast, the rest of the story?

Rob: I believe in the first, there is
that moment where they're trapped in

the hyper lift, and he has to change his
form, and there's this beautiful moment

of vulnerability, where he is falling
apart and he's gotta maintain control.

And she just goes, let yourself
go and I will protect you.

And it's a beautiful, tender but
almost sensual moment as well.

Kevin: They let her be a
well rounded character.

They let her be…

Rob: And he is vulnerable to her and she
is the strength and holds him together.

And it's a sensual moment.

And they come back to that cuz Odo
does start exploring his sexuality

and what his… there's so many
possibilities with his body, Kevin.

And there's a beautiful moment when
him and Kira finally get together.

When they finally kiss for the first
time and you get up and cheer and clap.

It's so beautiful.

But there's a moment where he fills
her with warmth and light and fills her

whole, the whole space with his essence.

I think that's a great moment of,
it's not purely carnal, it's a

sensual thing, which you don't really
connect with Star Trek, sensuality.

There's beautiful, sensual moments
and playful, joyful moments with Riker

and Troi in Insurrection, you know,
when they're in the bath together and

she's shaving him, that's really hot.

Kevin: I'm such in two minds of that
because I think, on the one hand

they accomplish something there of,
they let two adults be intimate,

flirty, erotic with each other.

And it is fun and it
is sexy and it is hot.

I was watching it with headphones on
earlier this week and Jess, my partner

was sitting on the sofa next to me
and she was going, this is hot and I

can't even hear what they're saying.

Rob: That's a good sign.

Kevin: At the same time, they once
again found a way to work around

the acknowledgement of the act.

Riker and Troi never actually
commit the sinful act of having sex.

They have a bath together.

They shave each other.

They giggle about it like school children…

Rob: Well, we don't, we don't, see much
of… We don't see much of him shaving her.

Kevin: That's true.

Well, you know, I use my imagination.

Rob: It's implied.

Kevin: I can't believe I said that.

That's hilarious.

Rob: That's, that's gotta be
a deleted scene somewhere.

Kevin: It's in the cut.

It's in the cut.

I wanted to come back to Data,
though, because that episode, The

Naked Now, it ends with Yar stepping
up to him and blushingly saying "It

never happened," and the next time
it's acknowledged is after her…

Rob: After her death where the image
of her shows up and he, I dunno who

he's talking to, but he says we were…

Kevin: We were intimate.

This is in The Measure Of A Man where
he is, his humanity is on trial.

And he's got the little hologram of
her, which is the same pose in uniform

that she appears in her funeral.

So we assume it is a gift to
mark her passing, but it is never

addressed, this strangeness of the
last words on the subject we hear

from Yar herself is, I regret it.

It never happened.

I'm embarrassed.

And, suddenly, it becomes a cornerstone
of Data's feeling of growing humanity.

It is the closest, most intimate
relationship he's had in his life.

And on the one hand, it is sweet.

But when you lean into it, it
is also potentially creepy.

I think, we were all young enough
once where we were madly in love with

someone who did not return our feelings.

And there, there is that moment where
you grow up enough to let go of it and

realize it's not just about your feelings,
it's about their feelings as well.

And if I continue to impose myself, what
I want on this person who does not want

the same thing, there's a line there that
shouldn't be crossed and Data seemingly

crossing it posthumously is something that
I am not entirely comfortable with when

I allow myself to look at it up close.

Rob: Yeah, and it's very much a trope
of drama that lasted for decades,

and it's only start— I think there's
even examples of it, I think I can

remember, from like The Office in the
early noughties, of that whole type

of situation, where two characters
get intoxicated and the end of the

episode, "sting" or "gag", and I'm doing
inverted commas, is it never happened.

Kevin: We're never talking about this…

Rob: And that's the full stop gag to
end the episode, then we restart the

series seven days later with a whole…

Kevin: Yeah, and it can put
those two characters into a

will-they-won't-they state of, maybe
they do re-acknowledge it later.

Maybe they realize it was the start of
something, it wasn't something shameful.

But Tasha Yar never got that opportunity.

Unless we tell ourselves that they figured
something out offscreen, like after that

moment there was stuff going on off screen
between them, that caused her to bequeath

a holographic image of herself to him on
her death, that allowed him to claim that

connection for the rest of his, his life.

Rob: That's a lot of heavy lifting
that we have to do as fans.

Kevin: It is.

So it's a, another example of the
writers going a little skewy when it

came to sex, like not tackling it head
on and being clear and saying these

people enjoyed what they did together.

Instead it was like, these people will
never speak about it again, because it is

shameful, unless one of them is dead, so
they can never make that mistake again.

And now it's allowed to be sweet.

Rob: Again.

Yeah.

Again, it's that case of the it's the.

The trap that Star Trek is stuck into.

It's so procedural, it is so closed
off within that televisual follow

the 45 minute structure then reset.

So that arc of a character growing
is denied because we have to be back

at square one for next week, so that
they can overcome the next scientific

challenge, or the next engineering
challenge, as opposed to developing

this strong, healthy relationship first,
and then the other stuff will come.

Kevin: The button on Data's story in my
books comes in Star Trek First Contact

when he is seduced by the Borg queen.

And uh, they again have what could
be construed as implied sex off

screen, where there is a scene where
they end kissing and then they come

back and Data is changed for the
experience that he has just had.

Rob: And she's blown
on his new flesh patch.

Kevin: Exactly.

But that's going back to the sinfulness,
like the idea that sex is brought

by the villain as a temptation.

Rob: And it is definitely played in
that way of, come over to the dark side,

we have sex and pleasure over here.

Where we can shave each other and
we can blow each other's patch.

They're my two favorite phrases
that we have come across tonight.

Kevin: Deep Space Nine, I think,
started to get it right when

Dax and Worf got together.

The episode Looking for par'Mach
in All the Wrong Places is

when they finally get together.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: They have sex in the holosuite,
and come in all bruised and battered

into the infirmary afterwards.

And Julian's like, I don't wanna know.

I'm just gonna treat you.

But it is a celebrated, healthy first
step in two people who end up loving each

other wholeheartedly getting together.

And it feels like, finally, we're here!

We can have our heroes have
sex and acknowledge it later.

And it is okay.

Rob: And then they kill her off

Kevin: They do!

Rob: And then Worf has awkward sex with
Ezri, and it back to being weird again.

Kevin: You're right, it
does get weird again.

Rob: And then she gets together with
Julian and then it's just weird again.

The curse of season seven,
dropping the eight ball sometimes.

Kevin: Two steps forward.

One step back, I…

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: …on that front.

Rob: Then I go into sort of like
stuff like with Voyager— I'm just

jumping around, like in Voyager…

Kevin: I'm going to Voyager as well.

Rob: I always refer to, it became a
common thing with when I did my binge

of Voyager in my past life, it was the
reoccurring gag of Chakotay is a dawg.

Kevin: Is he, now?

Rob: Chakotay is always on
the prowl, and there are some

episodes where it gets awkward.

There's an episode where Chakotay and
Janeway are trapped on a planet for,

Kevin: Oh yeah.

They live out a whole life together.

Rob: And it's implied the
whole will they, won't they.

But then they get back on the
ship, and again we have to reset.

Even though we are on this journey
to get back, we have to follow

that procedural type thing.

And then right at the end, they cram
in this awkward, oh yeah, and Chakotay

and Seven of Nine are doing something.

And I'm so glad they haven't followed
that up, because it was so hamfisted,

and so unconvincing, and you go…

Kevin: Yeah.

I can see why— The idea that these
people who are trapped together on a

ship, they will end up pairing off.

It was established like
from the very first episode.

That promise was there.

The fact that it was
so awkward in practice,

Rob: Because there was nothing.

Because there was nothing
between the two of them.

It was always like, it was alwa— What
I loved about it was Seven of Nine

was always paired with either the
doctor or Janeway or the young girl.

Kevin: Naomi Wildman.

Rob: That's right, Naomi Wildman.

And did you channel your
best Jeri Ryan while you—

Kevin: I closed my eyes and I imagined
Jeri Ryan saying Naomi Wildman.

Rob: Yeah, so it just was so
crowbarred in there going, they have

shared like three lines over three
years, and now we're expected to

believe that these guys are flirting.

And no, convincing at all.

Kevin: What's interesting around sex in
Voyager for me is Janeway, the woman at

the top, who is the first female captain.

And she's established as if not
married, then at least in a long-term…

Rob: Long-term relationship.

I don't think they're
married, her and Mark.

Kevin: They have a dog together.

So in my books, they're married.

Rob: …a dog and they're sharing coffee.

Kevin: That's right.

Yeah.

That immediately, they defuse
her as a sexual being early on by

giving her someone back home that
she, as the captain who must be the

paragon of virtue, she's trapped in
needing to be true to Mark back home.

Rob: And also she is trapped within that
hairdo, which is so tightly bunned and up.

Kevin: They get there eventually, though.

She has a few awkward flirtations
with prime ministers of

planets along the way, but…

Rob: The weird holosuite episode where
she said you know, the famous line…

Kevin: This is what I'm talking about.

Delete the wife.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's uh, Fair Haven,
season six, episode 11.

That was definitely on my list.

Again, nothing actually happens on
screen, but the moment of Janeway

claiming her sexuality and saying,
what, who am I gonna sleep with?

Everyone reports to me.

I'm gonna use the holodeck,
and I'm gonna like it.

And it is great.

You can see Kate Mulgrew
relish the line reading and

going, yeah, we're going there.

Get used to it.

Rob: Oh, that whole scene, where
she's just looking at the hologram

program and just saying, I'm
gonna bend this man to my will.

I'm gonna make the man that I want.

Kevin: That's right.

Rob: Delete the wife, ah, it's hot.

It's weird, but it's hot.

Kevin: Weird.

It is good weird.

Like, they get to good weird.

Rob: It's very unhealthy obviously.

But at that moment, it's yeah.

Kevin: It was the nineties.

Rob: Yeah.

So it's just those Lower Deck crew members
who have to clean out the holosuites.

Kevin: That was Rom's job on Deep Space.

Rob: Of course.

Oh yeah.

A holodeck ones that Quark has.

Oh god, that would,
yeah, that is pure filth.

Yeah, that is not a good job.

Kevin: We didn't even
talk about Kirk and Spock.

Rob: Oh man.

Don't even get me started on all the,
the slash fiction out there about so

many pairings within that star, oh,
we didn't even touch on Bashir and

Kevin: Garak.

Rob: Garak, yeah.

Kevin: The strongest love
affair in all of Star Trek.

Rob: Yeah, and so much so like fans
have written scripts that have been

read by the actual actors where
Bashir and Garak are married.

Kevin: I love it.