Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello everyone and
welcome back to Subspace Radio.

It is me, Rob,

Kevin: and me, Kevin.

Rob: And we gotta talk about it.

It's the latest episode of Star Trek.

It's a badmiral episode.

Kevin: Our sad and solemn duty, Rob, to

Rob: sad and solemn duty, but if we don't
do it, millions could suffer at the hands

of this cloaked ship, whoever it may be.

Kevin: Yeah, whoever the
t- the Terror, the Terror.

Rob: They're starting their
reign, as it were, uh, a little

bit earlier than we expected.

But yes, we are here to look at, uh,
season four, episode eight of Strange

New Worlds, Orders of Magnitude

Kevin: I like the, uh,
multi-meaning, uh, title.

Like, uh, Orders of Magnitude, as I was
watching the show, I was like, "Oh, yeah,

it's like millions versus thousands, and
it's a game of, uh, orders of magnitude."

And then in hindsight, you look at it
and it's like, do you follow the orders?

Those, those orders of great magnitude.

Uh, and I like, I like that.

Uh, I love a good
double-meaning episode title.

Rob: It works on a lot of levels.

So yes, we had a heavy- lot of
heavy lifting at the start to get

ourselves in a situation where
we have a Kirk-focused episode.

Kevin: There was a bit of, a bit of,
uh, yeah, table setting, wasn't there?

Rob: Lots and lots of table setting
going, "Okay, well, we'll put our captain

Kevin: "The Enterprise just happens to be
in orbit of an M class moon," we're not

gonna talk about what it's called, "that
is on a major Federation trading route."

We're not gonna get into any specifics.

It's just like, "Trust us. It was,
it was on my way. It was on my way."

Rob: Kirk was on his way.

He wants to see La'an for some
reason 'cause it's been ages since

he stabbed, uh, she stabbed him.

Um, for the first time, I think breaking
Federation protocol, we have the captain

and the number one on an away mission,
and lo and behold, they go into a cave.

They love caves.

Always a good cave in Star Trek.

Kevin: I like caves.

I don't love caves.

I like caves

Rob: And of course, they go into
a cave where they're out of, uh,

communication, um, uh, range.

So what could possibly go wrong?

A bad admiral shows up and
puts Kirk through his paces

Kevin: Before we get any further
into it, what did you think, Rob?

Rob: Great.

Loved it.

Really, really good.

It's like, um, uh, if a couple of
weeks ago was like The Poseidon

Adventure, this is like Crimson Tide.

And if anybody has seen that Gene Hackman,
Denzel Washington movie, it's, uh, it's

pretty much that on the Enterprise.

Uh, Kirk going up against, uh, Joe Morton.

Great to see Joe Morton, the great
Joe Morton doing an incredible job.

Kevin: Yes.

Um, I'm not sure whether his
fate here is better or worse

than his fate in Terminator 2.

Rob: Oh, if you could, if you, if
those listeners could see my, my

dead-on perfect in- interpretation of

Kevin: It was uncanny.

It was

Rob: holding up the
explosion, breathing heavily.

Oh, uncanny.

Uncanny.

Anyhow, uh, what did
you think of it, Kevin?

Kevin: I loved it too.

Uh, it was just like pure
straight down the line Star Trek.

No tricks, no gimmicks.

It was just a military procedural where
people argued about what the right

thing to do was, and that, that is the
Star Trek Kevin loves best, I think.

Uh, yeah, it was really good.

Rob: Everyone has been saying.

Enough of the pastiches.

Give us some, you know, honest to
god, straight down the line Star

Kevin: I feel like we earned it.

I feel like we earned it.

Like, they gave us every possible
version of, uh, you know, curly, offbeat,

unexpected Star Trek, and this week
they were like, "You know what? The

thing that's gonna be strange about
this one is just how not strange it is."

Rob: Just how, yeah, and, and
going with the, the tropiest trope

of all tropes, but doing it in
such a way it was done so well.

Like bad admiral, we've, you
know, it's a, it's, it's, it's

shorthand now with Star Trek fans.

Pe- all, everyone online going,
"It's badmiral. It's a badmiral

episode. It's a badmiral episode." But

Kevin: It's badmiral episode and yet they
play with our expectations nevertheless.

Like, as soon as he comes on board and
it's like, "It's an admiral." Uh, and,

uh, and he's putting Kirk in command
and you're like, uh, well, he's putting

Kirk in as second in command and he's
kinda negging Kirk about his dad, uh,

his, his military history, yada, yada.

And that whole time, that whole time I'm
going, "He seems pretty reasonable." Uh,

you know, I am suspicious but so far,

Rob: He's a

Kevin: he could be right,

Rob: He's a charming guy.

Kevin: Yeah, he's charming.

He's charming.

He, he's, he, he's maybe a
little unprofessional but, uh,

seems to have maybe earned it.

I, I'm kind of okay with him until
he, until he basically just says,

"W- we're gonna destroy the planet."

And the camera tilts into a 30-degree
Dutch angle and I turned to my viewing

partner and said, "Yep, he's insane."

Rob: He's insane.

The Dutch angle proves it.

Only someone who is insane can cause
the camera to go to a Dutch angle.

Kevin: And it was, um… From then on,
it was, it was, uh, yeah, just kind of

this tumbling out of, of consequences.

And, it was good that Kirk
never, questioned the right thing

to do and never gave ground.

Like, I think they showed that previous
episode in the recap at the start where he

regretted his choices, and you could see,
like, Kirk was not about to regret any

more of his choices, and that was good.

I felt a little bad for
how on his own Kirk was.

On a ship s- uh, like, on a show set
on the Enterprise, where ostensibly the

primary cast of characters is Spock and
Uhura and La'an and Pike and Una and, and

Ortegas, like, and Scotty, like, none of
those people had Kirk's back, and the,

the protagonist of the episode was Kirk.

And it felt a little strange for that
reason, is that, like, we were, we were

almost watching our regular cast in
the passenger seat, and they were so

passive, uh, that it bothered me a bit.

Rob: It was, it was, uh, I thought it
was well played to have that case of,

you know, it wasn't as cut and dry for
going, Kirk is in the right and, you

know, um, Joe Morton is in the wrong.

And you're there going, "Well, no.

Is, you know, has, has Kirk- is Kirk
coming from this the right angle?

Is he doing this the right way?

Is this c- you know, s- s- and maybe he
should be cut off a bit 'cause everyone's

a little bit suspicious of him," and,
um, and, and everyone, a- and the whole

case of going even Spock calling out the,
the plot hole there going, "Um, surely I

should be made, uh, you know, your number
one 'cause I actually am on the ship

and I know how this ship works," and,

Kevin: Not the ranking

Rob: We- yeah."

Kevin: That was a, that was a…
You know, you get Pike and Una off

the ship, and suddenly Kirk is the
ranking officer on the Enterprise.

I did, I did say out loud at that moment,
"Are there seriously no other commanders

on this whole ship?" It's a big ship.

Rob: Just summon.

Just summon them up.

Just call them up going, "Any commanders
here? We could just have you." No?

Kevin: Yeah, but Kirk is first officer on
the Farragut, so like kind of fair enough.

If the first officer's away,
then another first officer is

probably the one to put in charge.

I was okay with that.

Rob: I, I, I particularly liked, uh, its
focus on, uh, George and the relationship

between George, uh, James, and Sam.

I always loved the, the Kirk
boys together, you know?

Um, I th-

Kevin: that we have not seen this,
this universe's version of George Kirk.

Like, the only George Kirk we've
seen is the start of Star Trek 2009.

Rob: Chris Hemsworth

Kevin: Exactly.

Yeah, so in my mind, it's
still Chris Hemsworth.

Like, that's the only George we've seen

Rob: That's the only
George we need, really.

Um, but I always love it when
the Kirk boys are together.

I love their dynamic.

Kevin: more together than ever here.

I feel like they've been resisting
showing the bi- the, the brotherly love.

Maybe because the show, at least up
until now, has intended not to be

about Kirk and Kirk's Enterprise.

And so if they, if they let Sam and
Kirk be too much of a feature, that,

uh, it might overwhelm the strength
of the other cast and characters

and relationships on the show.

But I feel like as we approach the finish
line here, and we are told the finish line

is going to be a very deliberate passing
of the torch and handover to the crew that

we recognize from the original series,
that there's, they're, they seem ready to

show us that relationship properly now.

Up until now it's always been a little
prickly, a little bit of, "Oh, you're the

reckless one," or, "You're, you're…"

You know, they, they've always been
a little bit not in sync, and this

was, like, the first time it was like,
"I want plausible deniability, just

like when we were kids." You know?

That sort of stuff is really charming,
uh, and I've missed it up until now.

Rob: And, you know, and the Kirk boys
working together to, you know, cause

a deception and a distraction and, you
know, Sam coming up and going, "Oh my

god," and with a, with a black eye.

Great stuff.

And that whole fa- and that family
resolution-type thing of Sam's antagonism

towards, um, George, and then to find
out th- that they were all played, that

this entire time, any time he was g-
looking for leave, he was taken off that.

He was, you know, um, made to be the
scapegoat so that, you know, Joe Morton

could be made to look more, you know,
like the hero that he's been known as

for the last, you know, how… You know?

Well, that's the thing.

I'm trying to figure out the
timeline of it, because the Klingon

war wasn't that long ago, so, so,

so the Kirk boys wouldn't
have been, like, babies.

They would've been, you know…
Yeah, they would've been young

men, but yeah, that effect,

Kevin: Yeah, they would've
been academy cadets, I guess.

Rob: Yeah.

But he didn't, George didn't want
them to be, their opinion of Star

Trek to be affected by, uh, by

Kevin: wasn't even really
said that George is retired.

Like the admiral said, George is,
"I consider him a friend," that he

was kind of speaking about him in
the present tense, and the sense

that I got is that George Kirk is
still out there serving somewhere

Rob: Yes.

Um, but that stuff for me
was an absolute highlight.

I love the Kirk boys together and,
um, and working together to, um,

you know, to sort things out and,
and clear their father's name.

Well, not clear their
father's name, but yeah

Kevin: I like how Jim Kirk and
La'an are still kinda not in sync.

They, like, at any given time La'an's
interested in Kirk or Kirk's interested

in La'an but never the two shall meet.

And, uh, they apparently have reacted
very differently to the stabbing

incident on the ghost ship and
Kirk is like, "Hmm, interesting.

I respect a woman who stabs
me." And, and La'an is like, "I

wish I was down in the cave."

Rob: And the great line, "Well,
you did stab me, so…" Phaser.

Stuns her

Kevin: I didn't quite get why she
put on alternate universe Kirk's

watch for this particular episode.

Yeah, it was weird.

Rob: Yeah

Kevin: Um, I mean, it gave Kirk
something to comment on in the hallway

and distract her, but that's about it.

And, uh, yeah, I, I, it seemed like she
was putting her watch on for the admiral,

which didn't make any sense to me at all.

That whole start of the episode, I
suspect, like, some stuff changed in

the editing because there's a moment
where they're about to go into the

cave and go, "We're gonna be out
of communication for an hour. Let

the Enterprise know." And then the
next thing that happens is Admiral

Reeger's shuttle, uh, makes contact,
and Admiral Reeger comes on board.

He's given the military honors.

They go to the briefing room.

He talks about the, the cloaked
ship that he's been tracking.

They appoint Kirk as the first officer.

Finally, they go to the bridge

Rob: Romulans.

Get it?

They're Romulans.

Can you see it?

Look

Kevin: Yes, we do.

And this is why Pike is not here.

This is why Pike is not here.

Like, they had to get Pike off the ship
because Pike has seen the future in,

uh, Quality of Mercy, Season 1, Episode

10. He would know how to track
that ship because he's seen the

future, so they need to get him
out of the way, for story purposes.

But anyway, they finally make it onto
the bridge and are ready to go, and

Admiral Reeger says, "How long until
they're back in contact?" And they say,

"50 minutes." And I'm like, "Wait, w-
all of that happened in 10 minutes?" Boy,

Starfleet moves quickly when they need to.

And all I can figure is that the
scenes are, happened in a different

order in the original script, and
then they rearranged them in the edit

for, for pacing reasons or something.

Uh, but as a result, that, that
line does not make a lot of sense.

The other thing is that that zero-thrust
torpedo looked very not zero thrust

when it zoomed out and hit the, uh,
the freighter o- on the view screen.

There was, uh, a few of those old
familiar senses of like the production

was moving really fast and not everyone
was necessarily getting every message.

Uh, uh, there's a s- a bit of
that creeping back into our Star

Trek again here, I feel like.

Rob: So look at our B plot,
our, our, our cave scene.

Kevin: Do it.

On paper, there's not a whole lot
there, but I really enjoyed it.

I thought it was well acted
and well, well, well done.

Rob: And yeah, Uhura stepping
up, you know, being, uh, being,

you know, mama bear and, and,
and, uh, you know, ch- saving the

Kevin: is how Uhura gets
her lieutenant, uh, rank.

Yeah, absolutely.

Uh, in a, uh, the, the f- I think it was
one of the final lines of this episode,

they say, "You're, you're… I'm giving
you a battlefield promotion." I, I was

like, "Come on, Pike, it's not necessary
to call it a battlefield promotion.

That's a bit grand.

It's a field

Rob: a promotion.

It's… Oh yeah, it's just a promotion.

Yeah.

But it was on the field.

Um, but she, uh, went totally,
uh, John McClane from Die Hard,

just taking out all the Andorians.

Um, that lead Andorian, wonderful actor.

Kevin: Super charming.

Yeah.

Not a, not a lot there in
the script, I feel like.

It would've been a thankless role,
and yet he was perhaps… E- even

with Admiral Reeger chewing up the
scenery, I feel like that Andorian

was even more magnetic to watch.

So every time we cut back to the
caves, I was like, "Oh, no, the caves."

And then the Andorian was there,
I was like, "Oh, yeah, he's good.

I

Rob: Yeah, Yeah, I've, I've seen
that actor before, especially like,

um, in another life where I had to
watch all of Desperate Housewives.

He had a, a little reoccurring role
on that, and he was magnificent.

He's really good.

His charm and his, he
was very arch at times.

But, um, perfect An-
Andorian, uh, uh, villain role

Kevin: And finally, finally, we
get the payoff for Cadet A'Sha,

who I've been saying, who I've
been saying all season seems like

she doesn't belong in Starfleet.

And guess what?

She doesn't belong in Starfleet.

That's the story.

Rob: There's literally nobody
is going to miss her and we

don't know why Uhura misses her.

We don't get it.

I'm going, "She has treated you
like absolute crap this entire time.

Um, you should, uh, you, you know, you
felt guilty about her being stabbed

and you wanted to save her life.

That's great, I get that,"
but when she decides to go,

they're going, "Just let her go.

Let her-"

Kevin: "Your feelings of
inadequacy, uh, are, are, are

illogical," or something she says.

"I have arrived at this decision
logically." And she walks out the

doors and is never seen again.

Rob: Never seen again.

Kevin: It's strange.

I would be happy for her to come
back in some form in the future.

Like, I think the, the actor
was done the dirty here.

Like, she, she seems like a good actor.

She can play a Vulcan.

I just feel like she, she… Her
story purpose was very minor, and

she's been kicking around on the
bridge establishing her presence for

what was a pretty, a pretty paltry
um, person in peril this term, this,

Rob: Pretty paltry person in peril.

That's a

Kevin: yeah, that's right.

Rob: Bring on the alliteration.

I love it.

Sh- she- I don't know if she
deserved that much of an effective

alliteration, but you know what?

You know, she, you, she can take
that when she leaves Starfleet,

go back to Vulcan and meditate.

Kevin: Yeah.

I guess, I mean, I, I appreciate
the, the intent there of like not

everyone is cut out for Starfleet.

Let's for once see a cadet who
doesn't turn into a superhero, a

cadet who isn't born for the service.

Maybe a cadet who figures out she's
in the wrong place and she, she a-

she's the Vulcan that does belong at
the Vulcan Science Academy, you know?

Uh, a- and I appreciate that.

I feel like if they were gonna tell
that story, though, there was, there

was a lot more flesh on that bone.

They, they, we just barely
nibbled at it this season.

Rob: Yeah, especially because we
know how much, you know, Uhura

has made Starfleet her family.

You know, she's lost her parents.

She's got massive tension
between her brother and her.

Um, not only the Enterprise crew but
f- the Federation has become her, you

know, her surrogate family and so she
was meaning it more than just trying

to make a place for, for this cadet.

She was trying to make
a home for this cadet.

That could've been a lot more played
out about the cadet just seeing it

as a career path as, as what- where
they wanted to go with their career

whereas, you know, Uhura is about this
is my life, this is my family, this is

Kevin: and we… If the story was about
Uhura as kind of, you know, stretching

her wings as a people leader for the first
time and dealing with someone who isn't

cut out for the job they find themselves
in, like that's an interesting story too,

but we didn't get any of that either.

We just got Uhura going, "Uh, I'm going
to ignore your Vulcan barbs and continue

to try to, uh, make you feel welcome,"
and then, "Oh, nope, you're gone."

You know?

There's… There just was not a lot of,
uh, ups and downs and twists and turns.

It just was not a focus.

It was kind of a background thread
that they just said, "Oh, by the way,

that thread is over. We- we're never
actually gonna bring it into focus."

Rob: Yes.

Yeah,

Kevin: So yeah, a little unsatisfying,
but I guess they had to give Uhura

some kind of emotional motivation
this episode and, you know what,

put a, put a cadet in peril.

Why not?

Rob: Yeah, and I like the, the ending is
really good, that moment to go, you know,

this is Uhura getting to the position.

Like, especially where we had
her from season one, episode one,

and finding her place, to now
this moment of going, "I am here.

I've got this.

I've earned this rank.

I've earned my place in the ship.

Nobody… You know, I am home."
And that was a beautiful moment.

The shot was great.

The back lighting was good.

I liked them, how they took
that moment to go, "This is

our Uhura," and celebrate her.

And, uh, it's a great moment.

Kevin: Uh, some nice
other connections here.

We had, uh, the cordrazine, uh, the,
uh, Chekhov's cordrazine at the, at

the start of the episode from, uh,
The City on the Edge of Forever.

That's what McCoy accidentally
doses himself with and

goes bananas on the bridge.

Uh, and we had General Order 24, it
was in, uh, a, a previous episode,

I think "A Taste of Armageddon,"
uh, from the original series.

Kirk kind of, like, threatens the,
the government on the planet, "If

you don't, you know, stop your war,
I'm going to implement General Order

24, and I'll end your war for you."

And so we have kind of spent 60
years wondering was that a bluff?

Was… Is that a real thing?

And here we are to learn that General
Order 24 actually is a, a thing in

the Starfleet manual for some reason.

Rob: For some reason it is there.

Um, f- for, yeah, a federation, uh,
based on exploration and pushing

beyond the, our knowledge is, uh, an
interesting thing that they've got.

At least it's the 24th order there.

It's not like up there in
the, in, in the single digits.

Kevin: It's worth commenting on La-
La- La'an one more time because I feel

like with next week's episode title,
we may be about to see the end of not

just La'an's arc for the season, but,
you know, I would not be surprised

if it is an end for La'an full stop.

Rob: Yeah, we, um

Kevin: And, and if that is the case, I
will miss her because, uh, just seeing

her be professional security officer,
like that speech she gave just before

Kirk stunned her where she says, "I know
how to do my job and I do it well," I

was like, "Yeah, I, I want to see more of
La'an being, like, a badass professional."

Rob: Yeah, I hope she makes it to season
five, but it's definitely giving us

that sense of this is it for La'an and
they're, you know, they're resolving this

story arc so that the final, you know,
truncated, uh, fifth season can be, you

know, ticking off one of those, uh, people
with a question mark over their heads.

You know, and M'Benga's may be leaving
soon too, so, um, yeah, wrap up of, uh, of

these little dangling, uh, plot threads.

Kevin: Because of the
cloaked (Romulan) ship in

Rob: Romulan.

It was Romulan.

Romulan.

It's Romulan,

It was.

Kevin: Yeah.

Because of that, I went back and skimmed
A Quality and Mercy, season 10 of

the, the first season, and it's funny.

Like, this, this show has
changed a lot in four seasons.

Uh, and, and watching Pike and Spock,
who, who, like, h- have barely gotten

to know each other at that point in
the series, and it is c- it is, uh,

Paul Wesley's first appearance as Kirk.

And Kirk… Like, in that episode, it's a
little confusing because, uh, Pike is sent

forward in time to the events of Balance
of Terror from the original series, and

he gets to see a preview of what w- would
occur in that episode of the original

series if Pike is still in command.

And so that is a time at
which Kirk is supposed to be

in command of the Enterprise.

He's supposed to be a, a seasoned
captain by that point, but in this

timeline, he is captain of the Farragut.

And Kirk beams on board the Enterprise,
and Pike greets him, and Kirk is like,

"Wow, I've never been to this ship
before." He, he's, he's… He says

to Sam, "Nice ship you've got here."
And in hindsight, like, having seen

so much of Kirk on the Enterprise
in this series since then, I'm like,

"So exactly what is meant to have
happened in that alternate timeline?"

Pike, Pike made up his mind that
he's going to save the cadets

in an accident that still hasn't
happened in, in this prime timeline.

And for some reason, that butterfly
effect prevented Kirk from doing all

of these visits to the Enterprise,
because by, by, uh, Balance of

Terror, he's never been there before.

Uh, it doesn't quite add up.

Uh, and so we've now and then talked
about how Strange New Worlds is, like,

stretching canon in extreme ways at times
from past series of Star Trek, but going

back and watching Quality and Mercy,
I'm appreciating that Strange New Worlds

is stretching its own canon in places.

Rob: Oh, fast and loose is, uh, what
we have described it many times,

and it's, yeah, it's done it with,
uh, the whole lore of Star Trek.

Why not do it with its own lore as well?

Um, yeah, loosey-goosey as

Kevin: Loosey goosey.

And in that alternate future,
La'an is serving under Kirk on the

Farragut is also interesting to note.

Rob: She ain't gonna get there.

I don't think she's
gonna get there, Kevin.

I don't

Kevin: All right,

Rob: have

Kevin: w- w- let's stop, uh, let's stop
trying to predict the future and, uh,

talk about the past a little bit, Rob.

Rob: Let's have a look at mutinies gone by

Kevin: Yes.

Kirk was accused of mutiny.

Um, Dr. M'Benga whispered to him
in urgent tones in the sickbay,

"This is mutiny, Jim." And, uh, at,
just, uh, as, as Kirk was, like,

pocketing the cordrazine to spike the
admiral's coffee in the background.

Rob: And so the, the, the
admiral puts a gun to his head.

Oof

Kevin: That was… The, the
layers of how wrong the admiral

is, it was very interesting.

Like, before he even steps foot on the
ship, the admiral is already a fraud

for what he did to George Kirk, how
he doctored the logs to take credit

for this victory that was not his.

Like, all of that is past.

Then he comes on the ship and he
wants to take revenge on this planet

of 5,000 people for his dead family.

That is what's over the line for
Kirk and makes Kirk want to mutiny.

But it's not enough for
M'Benga to relieve him of duty.

For that, he has to be medically
certifiably insane, and for that

they have to spike his coffee.

And like, those three levels and then
unwinding them at the end of like, "Oh,

okay, he was spiked. He wasn't that
mean," but he was still pretty nasty.

Like, there was like levels
of badmiral in this episode.

They, they had to push him over the
edge into insane-miral in order for him

to get his comeuppance as a badmiral.

Rob: Look, yeah, yeah, on our, on our
scale or, or our graph of, you know,

admiral, badmiral, insadmiral, uh, it's,
yeah, it, I can… There's a lot to get

to that high, you know, very steep arc.

Kevin: Yes.

But yes, Kirk is, uh, accused quite
rightly of, uh, mutiny and, uh,

it's something that has come up now
and then in the past in Star Trek.

Rob: Let's, uh, and let's talk about that.

Where are you going to for your time?

Kevin: I'm going right back
to the original series,

Rob: Boom shaka laka.

Kevin: but, uh, not so far back
as usual because I stopped at the

very last episode of the original
series, "Turnabout Intruder."

Rob: Turn about.

Sorry.

Kevin: Season three, episode
24 of the original series.

It was the last one.

It doesn't feel like a seas-
or series finale of any kind.

This was very much a show that was
written as an episode of the week right

up to its finale, and, uh, there was
a sense that everyone expected to come

back, although you hear stories from
the set that they knew they were done.

Um, nevertheless, the, the… This
episode ends with Kirk, Spock, and

McCoy walking into the turbolift, and
the doors shut, and, uh, it feels like

we'll all be right back here next week.

In fact, it is, it is not
even a, a very high point.

This is generally considered to be, uh, a
low for the series, "Turnabout Intruder."

There is a lot of, um, depending how much
you forgive and how much you overlook,

this is arguably quite a sexist episode
of the original series, uh, in part

because it, uh, sort of establishes a
explicit policy that women are not allowed

to be starship captains in Starfleet.

Yeah, ew.

And, uh, this, this episode begins
with Captain Kirk, uh, meeting one

of his old flames, Dr. Janice Lester.

They have a past relationship that, uh,
as events unfold, we learn that they split

quite unamicably, and in fact, Dr. Lester
always wanted to be a starship captain.

But, uh, in, in, in her words, " Your
world of starship captains does not

admit women." In Kirk's words, "You
have neither the temperament nor

the training for that sort of job.

Uh, and even if women could be
starship captains, you would

not make a very good one."

Uh, and that is, you know, arguably a
fair cop because what she does to get

her revenge is she body swaps with him.

She takes over his body and attempts
to commandeer the Enterprise

in the form of Captain Kirk.

As Captain Kirk in the body of
Janice Lester tries to convince

the crew that she is their captain.

Rob: Wow.

Kevin, we have got a badmiral
episode where we're looking at

mutinies and you found a mutiny
episode that's a body swap episode.

Kevin: That's right,

Rob: that is… Talk about layers.

Jesus.

Kevin: Yeah.

So yeah, there's a, there's a lot going on
in this one, and, uh, there are, there are

certainly, um, y- just the, the body swap
moment of, like, they're pinned against

an ancient s- piece of, of alien space
machinery that will go unexplained, and

their, their two souls kind of come out of
their body as, like, highlighted versions

of themselves and swap and go back in.

It's, it's kind of very schlocky.

Like, this is one of the most B movie
episodes of the original series there is.

Rob: Oh, that, look, that reminds
me of Freaky Friday, the Disney

f- film in the '70s with, uh,
Jodie Foster and Barbara Stevens.

And it literally, you know, "I wish
I could swap places with her for one

day." And they do the same thing.

They get the, the images of them
elevates out, and then swaps over.

Kevin: Yes.

There is a sense that it was
already cliché by the time Star Trek

did it here in its third season.

Um, but there's good stuff, like
watching William Shatner play this

insane woman in his own body is,
like, legitimately compelling.

He, he definitely plays a, a recognizably
different person subtly enough that

you can understand why it takes his
bridge crew a few beats to cotton

on that this is not their captain.

And yet they do cotton on, and that's
what makes you love the crew, is, like,

they will notice when something's wrong.

They have these conversations of,
like, "The captain has not been

right since he returned from that
away mission." And, like, they know

right away something's going on.

It's just a question of what is it?

Is the captain mentally ill?

Uh, or is… You know, once Janice
Lester wakes up and starts claiming to

be their captain, uh, it, it, uh, it,
it quickly unspools into a mutiny where,

uh, Spock is the first one convinced.

He meets with Lester and says, "Look,
um, you know some things clearly, but a

lot of those things were on the record."

And, uh, she says, "Well,
let me convince you.

Uh, give me a, a, a mind meld."
And Spock touches Kirk's mind in,

in her body and says, "I believe
you, but no one else will."

And so Spock attempts to break
her out of the brig and, uh,

then is, is court-martialed.

And there is a whole court-martial
scene where, uh, Bones and Scotty and

the fake captain are the three judges,
and they will vote at the end as to

whether Spock is guilty of mutiny.

But Scotty and Bones, by this point,
both sense this is not their captain

presiding, and they have a, a really
kind of cool conversation in the hallway.

Scotty and Bones don't of- often
have a lot to do with each other.

They are often at, you know,
opposite ends of the script, I

feel like, throughout this series.

But this is one time where they get
to- together and talk man to man and

go, "You know that's not our captain."
And Bones says, "Yeah, but I can't

prove anything." And Scotty says,
"Yeah, Starfleet has its own problems.

Right here and now, we have to decide
who the captain of the Enterprise is."

And they're like, "Okay, well, you
know you're talking mutiny." "Yes.

Are you ready for the vote?" And they
go back into the courtroom, and Kirk,

or Kirk imposter, is sitting there
and goes, "Replay the recording from

the conversation in the hallway."
And they are caught red-handed

conspiring, uh, in this mutiny.

It's… There, there's really, really
good stuff here, but it is all against

this, uh, built on this foundation of
women can't be Starfleet captains, and

this one insane woman is proof of why.

It's really uncomfortable.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: The very last line in Star Trek the
original series is Captain Kirk saying,

"Look, I didn't want to destroy her."
And Spock says, "I don't think anyone is

saying you were." And Kirk goes, "Her life
could have been as rich as any woman's.

If only.

If only."

And then they walk into the
turbolift and it's done.

Rob: Well, there you go.

Kevin: There you go.

An ignominious end.

Boy, am I glad they got to
come back and do some movies.

Rob: I'm, yeah, or an
animated series as well.

Kevin: Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So, uh, yeah, it's a, it's
a historical curiosity.

The, the title, " Turnabout Intruder,"
I, I have for many years confused this

with "Balance of Terror" for some reason.

Like, "Balance of Terror" is at
the end of the first season, and

this is at the end of the third
season, and I get them mixed up.

In my mind, the intruder that they
turn about is the Romulan ship, uh,

and so I, I, I get those mixed up.

But this in- this, uh, this is the
actual Turnabout Intruder, which is

the intruder into Kirk's body and the
command structure of the Enterprise.

Um, but yes, good to see some actual,
like, um, mutiny hearings and, and,

uh, a, a growing cohort of mutineers.

There's a scene on the bridge where
Chekov and Sulu talk about like, "Are

we gonna let her get away with this?

Uh, or are we gonna follow their orders?

I mean, like, nothing's been decided yet,
so as far as the, the command structure

goes, th- this is still our captain.

We still have to take his orders."
And S- Sulu's the one who says, "I

am going to use every, uh, every
opportunity I have to resist him."

And so he comes onto the shi- bridge
and starts giving some insane orders.

And, uh, s- uh, Chekov and Sulu do that
thing where they're, they both, their

hands slide off their control panels and
they put them on their laps, and they

just stare forward and ignore the orders.

And it's just good, good
mutiny tropes going on.

Rob: Shame about the whole episode being,

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, uh, high
highs and low lows in one episode.

Uh, it's not all bad, but it's…
What is bad is pretty bad.

Uh, if you haven't seen
it, it's worth a look.

Rob: Well, there you go.

If, if, if nothing just for the, uh,
what it signifies within the, uh, the

history of our, uh, 60-year-old franchise.

Kevin: Hmm.

Where did you go, Rob?

Rob: well, from your, um, body swap
episode which hides as a mutiny

episode, I'm going into an episode
that is a mutiny episode that's

hiding as a, uh, holodeck malfunction.

I am going to Voyager, Season 3,
Episode 25, Worst Case Scenario

Kevin: Ooh, yeah.

Refresh my memory, please.

Rob: All right.

So we open, uh, on Voyager and,
uh, Chakotay and B'Elanna are

walking down the corridors.

But Chakotay catches up with her and
starts talking to her about the fact

that the captain's about to go away and
you're getting sick and tired of having

to follow the orders of, of Tuvok.

Um, and they ever got a sense of
things could possibly change or what if

things changed or anything like that.

And B'Elanna goes, "Oh, possibly,"
goes, "Well, when things happen, you

know, be ready." Um, and then what
plays out is that, uh, Chakotay, uh,

uh, has got all the Maquis, uh, people
from, uh, before and some of the

Voyager crew ag- uh, to turn against
Janeway and, um, take over the ship.

They wait for her to be
out of, uh, warp range.

Uh, she leaves in warp range
to go check this thing out.

Uh, Tuvok is, uh, being encouraged
to go as well, you know.

But no, uh, he stays and, um,
Chakotay takes over, and B'Elanna's

caught up in this whole thing.

And they're down in the, in the,
uh, in the cargo deck with all the

Che- uh, Seska's there and, uh,

Kevin: The first sign that things
are not quite as they seem.

Rob: And, uh, and Chakotay says,
"You've got, uh, 15 minutes or five

minutes to decide whether you're with
us or whether you're gonna be dropped

off at the planet with all the other,
um, uh, higher ranking officers."

And then who should walk in but
Tom Paris going, "Hey, we've got a

date, B'Elanna. What are you doing?"
And it's all a hologram, a holodeck

program, a holonovel as they say.

I love the term holonovel.

It's such a beautifully '90s
representation of this thing, how they've

stepped, uh, the holodeck forward.

Um-

Kevin: getting there.

I feel like we're maybe 10 years away
from a holonovel being a real thing.

Rob: I, I, yeah, as, uh, it could happen.

It- the future is now.

Um, so B'Elanna's been able to go into
these subroutines and 'cause she's the

best damn engineer there is, and has
found this program that was deleted but

has been brought back of a, a scenario,
a novel where, um, Chakotay and the

Maquis, uh, take over, um, Voyager.

And B'Elanna loves it and but, you know,
uh, Paris wants to have a go as well.

And so he goes through
and starts the same thing.

It's an unknown ensign that they
are both playing, and we see it

from Paris's point of view, and he
plays it out differently obviously.

He's always very excited to jump
involved and be very Paris-y.

Um, and it just grows and grows, and
they start talking to other people,

and it becomes this popular game
within, uh, the crew of Voyager.

All the v- the Voyager

Kevin: a popular episode for us as an
audience, I feel like as well, because

this is a kind of a glimpse of the
unrealized possibility of Voyager as it

was established in its original premise
of, like, these merging of these two

crews, the Maquis and the, the Federation.

And they are, they are, um, faster
friends than I think may have been

wise in hindsight in this series.

I feel like if Ronald Moore was the,
uh, showrunner of Voyager, they would've

been at each other's throats all the way
from the Delta Quadrant, and it would've

been Crew A takes Voyager, Crew B takes
it back the next week, and it would've

been f- like infighting all the way home.

And, uh, here we get a little taste
of what that might've been like.

Rob: A little taste of it, the
ruthlessness of Chakotay, the, the, the

ruthlessness of, uh, Neelix, uh, uh,
changing his affiliation quickly, um,

and how each of them play out and how
bemused by this all, uh, um, Janeway is.

The- no matter how hard they tried,
they could never get the, the

conference room, uh, scenes just
as naturally flowing as, uh, TNG.

There's just so many moments of someone
makes a gag quite labored and everyone

laughs a little bit too hard, and you're
there going, "Oh, it just doesn't work

as well as it does on TNG," bless them.

Um

Kevin: not just because
this is all Tuvok's writing

Rob: And then it's all Tuvok.

Tuvok reveals him, "So I am the
one who wrote this all." It was

never done as a, as a holonovel.

It was me as a, it was a training
program because it- and it

ends without it being finished.

And Tuvok stopped writing it because
he went, "We're getting on so well,

there's no need to finish it."

Um, but of course they try
to write it, uh, together.

They- they were going to do it separately
and then they come in together and

then the program of course had this
subprogram in there where, uh, Seska

has taken over and w- you know, all
the security, uh, options are taken

off so they can be killed in the space.

If they try and open the
holodeck, it'll explode.

Um, it's all gone awry and they
have to save it at the last minute.

They have to work together to figure
out a way to, uh, stop the program.

And there's a great setup.

They kill the hologram Janeway.

Uh, Je- uh, Seska does it by, um,
manuf- malfunctioning the, one of the

phaser rifles and she falls for the same
trick that, uh, Tuvok plays it on her.

Um, but yes, it's an insight into, like
you said, what could have been if they,

you know, had the balls to actually
do what was set out and what would

have made it different and special.

Kevin: Yeah.

It's a fun one.

I, uh, I, I, I would look
forward to rewatching it.

Rob: Yeah.

It, the, the first half of it is
the best when you see the different

versions of it being played out and the

Kevin: Yeah, once the spell is
dispelled, I suppose it might

lose a bit of its tension.

Rob: And then it turns into,
you know, different points of

view of how to write a story.

Like Tom wants to make it all fiction
and just make, you know, they're

gonna execute people and he wants
to go, "It's just a work of fiction.

I'm making it up as I go." But
Tuvok's about, "Well, w- let's look

at each of the person's personality
traits and work that all out."

And then Neelix wants to go, "Oh,
I've got an idea about how we can

make Neelix better." And so that
type of stuff isn't as interesting.

Um, there's a great moment with like
a hologram, uh, holodeck version

of the Doctor who is all pleasant
but firm and like beats the crap

out of them all, uh, and then get-
gets thrown out in, uh, when, when,

uh, the Seska version takes over.

That's, that's quite clever.

Um, but yes, it, it works better
in the first half when we see that

alternate version, uh, uh, play out.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, the drama of a, uh, of
a mutiny, if nothing else,

Rob: is always, is always good fun
and seeing how these characters

that we've grown to know over the
last three seasons, uh, work out.

And this is a monumental one because
it's like the … Well, in many

ways it's a final episode as well.

It's not the end of Season 3.

Uh, we still have Episode 26 to
come, but that's where they finally

have the Borg and that's where Seven
of Nine comes in and where Season

4 kicks on with our new dynamic.

And you could see by Season 3 this
dynamic without, uh, Seven of Nine

is getting a bit labored where
you … I'm watching it there going,

"You know what we need right now? We
need Seven of Nine in this situation."

Kevin: So yeah, we need an
outside eye on this crew.

Um, and there are… There's at least one
episode that reminds me of this one that

has Seven of Nine in the viewer's role.

Uh, there's one where she is, like,
um, playing through lots of, like,

possible scenarios or, or, or she's
seeing conspiracies all over the ship.

And, uh, that one, that one reminds
me of this one in that it is like,

uh, she's, she's proposing fictional
possibilities of what's going on on the

ship or what might go on on the ship.

And having her there, uh, I don't know
if, if it's just the strength of her

performance that elevates it, but I
think also the fact that, like, there

is this person from the, the outside
whose emotional reality we are invested

in, uh, helps, uh, provide a, a little
more stakes to the whole thing as well.

Rob: Yeah.

There's a great return of the, uh,
the actress who plays, uh, uh, Seska.

She does always well.

She's very good at playing, uh,
the villainous, uh, uh, Bajoran.

Um, but you know, it's great
to have her back for this, uh,

"We know now that something is
not right 'cause she is here."

Kevin: Yeah.

Oh, well, that was, uh, that
was, that was good to find.

I had forgotten about
that particular mutiny.

Rob: Yeah.

Albeit fictitious, but we do see the,
you know, there's a lot of shooting

of, uh, people that we know, stunned.

We have the blowing up of Janeway.

We have Janeway being killed by a manu-
uh, malfunctioning, uh, phaser rifle.

There's a lot of what we love about
these, you know, what if scenarios where

you see our characters that we've grown
to love, you know, put in mortal peril.

Kind of like with the mirror episodes as
well where we see, you know, uh, all those

characters get killed off so gloriously.

Kevin: Well, to shake off the, uh, the
mutinies of this week, I, I think I'm

going to go and rewatch "The Elysian
Kingdom" from, uh, Strange New Worlds

because, um, the previews for this
week's episode tell us that is a, it

is a direct sequel to that episode.

Rob: Well, there we go.

Yes, and the title should have given
it away as well, giving a bit of a, a

fairy tale vibe with La'an at the center

Kevin: If I'm not mistaken, The
Elysian Kingdom was the first

episode we recorded a podcast about.

Rob: And who would have thought
that coming up to this episode

it would mark our 100th episode?

Kevin: It is a, it is a true,
milestone episode next week.

Rob: Not only is that a fairy
tale come true, that is a poetic

statement that we have, uh,
unintentionally landed ourselves in.

Kevin: Yes.

Well, I hope, uh, I hope it's
just as good as the episode that

inspired us to start a podcast.

Rob: Exactly.

I hope so as well.

I look forward to recording number
100 with you, uh, sir, as we

boldly go where no podcaster has
gone for at least the last week.