Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome back.

Like chronitons through the wormhole,
these are the days of Subspace Radio.

Rob: Exactly.

And it's a pleasure to see you here
in close-up while you're not even

looking at me, but you seem to be
distracted by something in the distance.

Kevin: Just thinking.

We're gonna talk about "Like Chronitons
Through the Hourglass," that's Strange New

Worlds, Season 4, Episode 7, and then jump
into some other prominent casting choices.

Rob: And they have gone
the soap opera this week.

Uh, folks, they have gone full soap opera.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, a- and they did, they wasted
no time getting into it as well,

which I feel like is, is soap opera.

Like, you watch any given episode of
a soap opera and it's always starts in

medias res, like, um, direct continuation
of the previous episode's scene.

And, uh, that's what it felt like
here with Pike waking up in sickbay.

Uh, it, it felt like we were joining
an episode already in progress.

Rob: Yeah, and the, you know,
s- soap operas are a machine.

They need to produce so much
content in such a little time.

They don't have time to, to
build up to it or the slow burn.

No, you, you start an episode, you're
straight in the episode, you're halfway

through a story that has been going on
for the last six months, possibly even six

years, um, and you will power on through.

And they did that immediately.

Immediately the aspect ratio had changed,
the, the, uh, the filters, all the, the,

the way the episode looked was completely
different right from the get-go.

Kevin: Jess, uh, my partner who,
stays out of the loop of all of the

previews and so had no idea what to
expect, 10 seconds into this episode

went, "Wow, this feels like a soap
opera." And I said, "You don't say."

Rob: There was a, Um there was a
beautiful balance with, with the

performers did excellent this week.

Excellent work.

So they did the soap opera
style, but it wasn't lampooned.

It wasn't parodied to the extreme.

Kevin: It's such a big form that to
parody it would be putting a hat on a

hat, and in a way, playing it straight
is lampooning it just because it is such

a, at times, uh, ridiculous art form.

Rob: Yeah, there was just little
tweaks here or there to their

performance and their delivery.

The pause, the, um, you know, additional
emotional, uh, emphasis, um, that really

was clever and delightful to watch.

Yeah, like you said, we
don't need a hat upon a hat.

And there are very few hats in Star Trek,
so if you, even if you have one hat,

it's, uh, it's, it's almost unnecessary.

Kevin: Uh, I don't mind saying
I enjoyed this one greatly.

Uh, and it holds up on second viewing.

Like, it had me laughing out loud and, uh,
in tears at the end, uh, in both viewings.

So it, it stands up.

It is, uh, it is maybe not a prestigious
sort of, uh… Like if you pitch it,

it doesn't sound like it's gonna be
one of the best episodes of Star Trek.

It sounds like it's gonna be a
bit of a, a hoop of the week.

But boy, they, they, um, I
think they made the most of it.

Rob: Loved it.

Absolutely loved it.

What a wonderful, wonderful episode.

So beautifully done.

And who would have thought, um,
from experiences from, uh, uh,

recent Star Trek shows, we have an
episode that focuses on the captain.

Kevin: Exactly, yeah

Rob: and, uh, not just them, uh, as,
you know, a figurehead of the whole

ship, but their, their emotional journey
and stuff that hasn't been dealt with.

We've sort of like touched on it a bit
with the first episode of this season,

with the, you know, what the Enterprise
is doing mission after mission after

mission, and we can read into that.

But to take this long to finally go,
"Let's focus in on Pike and why he is

doing what he's doing, and how he has
been affected by everything that happened

last season," in a real way, you know?

The… Even the way they mentioned and
talked about it, going, just referring

it to as, you know, Batel, uh, Batel
ascending or the Ascension, that

type of stuff, it was done in such a
low-key way that you can remember the

ridiculousness of it, but you can- you
feel the emotional truth behind it.

And that is an incredible balancing
act to do, and I was just so happy

that they focused on Anson Mount.

Anson Mount is an incredible team player.

To be the captain of the show and to
share the responsibilities of an ensemble,

uh, so willingly, so, so professionally,
so gracefully, um, is, is a credit

to him as an actor and as a person.

Um, but to have an episode to focus
on him, and he just grabs it with both

hands, shows his comic timing, shows his
dramatic skills, um, it's, it, it's a,

it's a tour de force performance from him
today, and who would have thought that

from a episode that's set in a soap opera?

Kevin: It, it is kind of unfamiliar
that the captain of the ship is one

of the least present characters in
the stories that this show tells.

Uh, especially after, you know,
the, the tradition of Star Trek the

original series with Kirk, Spock,
and McCoy being at the center of

everything that's going on at all times.

Just realizing, oh, we, you know, we
got one line from Anson Mount this

week, or, uh, he, uh, he, he was
unconscious for most of the episode.

Uh, um, yeah.

So it is… It feels unfamiliar that
the, a, a captain-focused episode

would be a novelty for a, a, a Star
Trek show, but here we have it.

And yeah, it is all the more enjoyable
for the fact that it is unusual.

Yeah.

I think if we were getting stuff
from Anson Mount every week,

this would feel less special.

Uh, but, uh, yeah, I, I
enjoyed it very much as well.

Uh, I think, uh, maybe the, the stuff
that worked the least well for me was

the, uh, scenes with Rhys Darby behind the
control panel with the, uh, the Proctor

dressed in a version of Q's judge's
robes from, uh, "Encounter at Farpoint."

Rob: That was an incredible hat.

The headdress

Kevin: It was too incredible.

Like, there, there was, there
was, like, spikes coming up

from her collar and a hat.

Uh, and speaking of hats on hats,
it was just a little too much

going on at the top, I felt like.

Uh, it turned it into what felt like a
bit of a Halloween costume to me, rather

than… The, the, the function of the
robes in "Encounter at Farpoint" is

that they were kinda scary and imposing,
and I, I would've liked them to play

a little more straight with those.

But also just the entire situation
was so unhinged of them sitting there

eating popcorn and arguing about whether
they should be shouting at the TV.

Like, uh, you know, I, I recognize the
comedy of it, but, uh, for some reason,

like, when, when so much of the emotion
going on on the ship was working for

me, to kinda zoom out and have this
trivial framing really bugged me in a way

Rob: I, I, I've, I found it a bit more
successful than his first appearance.

Uh, his first appearance was
because it was becoming across as

so vindictive, and there's only so
much you can do within that framework

of a vindictive God type thing.

But this was quite good as in Trel—

Um, sorry, I just cut out a bit
there or someone interrupted me.

Kevin: The, uh, fancy coat god

Rob: Yeah, so yes, this was his
school project, but it's also he

saw something he wanted to help.

This was his version of
assisting and helping someone

go through, uh, a situation.

And so I love that type of, you know,
inability to read human emotion, but

perceive something needs to be done.

And so this is my version of helping you.

Kevin: That part is, is, yeah, was
successful for me and is true to the

grand tradition of Q, well-established
that Q's favors are curses.

Uh, "Stop trying to help us and
leave," is a common line for

Picard, uh, when facing Q. Yeah.

Rob: But yes, uh, uh, we had a
fabulous return of, uh, Rhys Darby.

I've always liked him.

Um, and he g- was allowed
to play a little bit.

Uh, even had a post-credits, uh,
scene that was clearly improvised.

Like, there, there's been Discord online
going, "Oh, was that improvised or was

that scripted?" Going, "No, that was
just handing a prop to a improviser

Kevin: Apparently they handed him a
whole bunch of props and shot a whole

bunch of improvised commercials,
and that's the one they chose.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

From an improvising background as well,
it was, it was a little bit sloppy.

Um, uh, but, you know, it was more
focused on the gag as opposed to trying

to build a, a, well, a- there's so
much you could have done with a prop.

Um, I'm just there going, "All
right. Okay, you're just going for

the gag," which is cute and fun.

But, um, uh, but we also had a, uh,
appearance which we'll lead into a

bit later on, um, from, uh, soap opera
royalty, uh, appeared on the show, and

now they're established as the ship's
counselor, so I guess they've gotta

Kevin: Yeah, I was shocked
when she stuck around after

the, uh, the mists had parted.

Uh, I was like, "Oh, she's been
here the whole time," and, and,

uh, nominally remains available for
counseling sh- sessions in the future.

So yeah, wow.

De- Deirdre Hall, um, soap opera
royalty from, uh, Days of Our

Lives, over 50 years of playing her

Rob: 50 years of playing that character.

And, uh, also guest appeared
on, uh, one of my favorite

shows of recent times, Hacks.

She plays, uh, the in-universe
mother of, uh, one of our,

uh, uh, agents on the show.

Um, but she?

is just, She was so good.

She was really good.

Kevin: She was, I don't know…

Rob: Oh!

Kevin: I, I just think her brand of
acting was good for soap operas, but

it felt a little out of place here

Rob: Right.

Okay.

I found, I found her not really leaning
into the soap opera style, especially

like her final scenes with, uh, Anson
was some really… There's some really

nice connection between the two of them.

Kevin: It was… They cut back and
forth between them, and I was just

going, "Look, Anson Mount has some
gravitas that she just does not have."

Which is, I feel bad saying that for
someone who's been acting for 50 years.

I just think she's been doing a
certain kind of acting for 50 years,

and dramatic, like prestige TV drama
acting just didn't feel like it had it.

Yeah.

Rob: No, I, I, I, I didn't feel that.

I felt she was, she really
brought it this week.

I found she was, uh, y- she worked really
well, uh, on the show and did really well

with the, um, with the scene she had.

But, um, that nice little bit of,
uh, stunt casting, as it were,

was a, a cute little addition.

Um, but I love how they flipped it around.

You know, this is an important part
of the story as well and a part of

our lead character's journey and,
and, um, they stuck the landing.

My god, that, that scene
when Pike walks back into his

quarters and Juliet is there.

Kevin: Mm-hmm.

Rob: I was gone.

I was absolutely gone.

Kevin: Ah, yeah, I held it together for
that and I was like, "Whew, that was a

close one." And then he has the counseling
scene where he breaks down and, uh, yeah,

I, I… That was just too much for me.

Rob: Yeah.

The, and I love the, as soon
as she, uh, as soon as Juliet

leaves, the aspect ratio changes.

It goes back to reality, um, and he
just, you know, whispers, "I love

you." Um, beautiful scene, beautiful
connection, well-written, gorgeously

written, um, to give you the impression
that this Juliet is almost self-aware

that they are just a memory, and that,
and that was really cleverly done.

It's a, that's a fine balancing
act, um, uh, to get that balance of

being clever but not too clever by
half, and being emotional but not to

the point of being exploitative or
being s- you know, uh, saccharine.

Um, uh, just delightful stuff.

And just that whole, you know, the
beautiful line which we see a quite a bit

in sci-fi which is done, you know, if done
well is magical with going, just because

it wasn't real doesn't mean, you know,

Kevin: Just because it didn't
happen doesn't mean it wasn't real.

Rob: Yeah.

And beautiful lines like, "You forget
the details, but the feeling always

stays." That type of stuff is just…
Yeah, that's a, that's emotional

truth that just hit, hits you in the
stomach no matter what genre it is.

Um, incredible stuff

Kevin: Look, if we're talking
stunt casting, I cannot go past,

uh, Sybok's casting as Ethan Peck.

Rob: Um, it's been a, it's been a,
it's been a long game for us, Kevin,

since, since the nondescript back of
an actor in season one to then, to

then, jump ahead and have, you know,

Kevin: This, this is what
they were setting us up for?

Rob: But then to dismantle it all
with the end going, "Well, we're not

twins. We're not identical twins."

Kevin: Seems unlikely you
saw anything of him in me.

Rob: Um, but yeah, Peck did so well.

The shirt half open, the

Kevin: every time the phaser
went down and , I just laughed.

It was so

Rob: me your pain.

He, he, he did the thing, Kevin.

He said the line.

He said, "Give me your pain."

Kevin: Yes.

Everyone hides a secret pain

Rob: Yep.

Yep, yep, yep, yep,

Kevin: Grow stronger in the sharing.

Yeah, so good.

Um, apparently there is a lost scene
where La'an says goodbye to Sybok.

I don't know if it's an extension of
the surgery scene, but yeah, like, the

Sybok's, uh, life signs disappear, and
La'an is rushed out, and that is the last

we see of that storyline in this episode.

Apparently there was a little more,
but it had to be cut for time.

Rob: It was very dramatic.

It was very beautiful

Kevin: I hope we get to see it someday
because, uh, just every second of,

uh, La'an and Sybok especially, but L-
La'an and Ethan Peck was delightful.

Uh, their, their proper breakup scene,
uh, this episode was really sweet as well.

I'm so glad we got that, um, closure after
the initial breakup earlier this season.

Um, Yeah,

Rob: Yeah, it did seem

Kevin: watching La'an kinda
wrestle with it but stick with it

was, was, uh, really delightful.

Rob: And seemed to be her wrestling
and almost accepting some stuff.

I mean, we could see that clearly this is
becoming the big arc. This, well, they're

not becoming, this is, you know, Li-
La'an is coming to a head and her, her

future's coming to a head this season.

So we've got a couple more
episodes for that to be resolved.

Kevin: Her and the Vulcan cadet seem
like the last things left on the shelf.

Although if you'd asked me earlier in
the season, I probably wouldn't have been

able to pick many of the other things
that they've plucked off the shelf.

They've been hiding in plain sight a
lot of the time, but it does feel like

La'an's destiny and that bizarre Vulcan
cadet are completely unresolved for me.

Like, those, those things need
closure before the end of this season

Rob: They have definitely shown up,
done a little bit, and not much else.

And so we're going, "That has
to be there for a reason. Come

on." We've been ingrained in our
minds this stuff is happening.

But I was thinking, yeah, maybe
it was the resolution an episode

or two ago between La'an and
Spock was a good way of doing it.

But it definitely felt there needed…
I don't know if it was putting

another e- full stop at the end,
but there was that case of, um, the

Kevin: Who doesn't consider a
rebound with the evil twin brother?

Like,

Rob: Exactly.

Look, if your, if your shirt's half
opened and you know, that's, that, that's

an invitation more than anything else.

Um, but yeah, a beautiful little
subdued moment of going, you

know, this is goodbye, goes I
thought we were gonna be friends.

You know, I assumed that, yeah.

And then a goodbye to
that relationship, um, was

And the, and the, the, um, the,
not the gimmick, using the closing

of the doors right in front of the
screen was done really effectively.

Kevin: Yeah.

I was like, "Why are you snapping shut
so quick, doors? It's a bit rude."

Rob: Bit dangerous.

Um, yeah, the balancing act I said
is just, was just impressively done.

And especially with this season,
there's been some parts where the

balancing act hasn't stuck the landing.

Uh, that's me mixing my metaphors.

Uh, but

Kevin: Look, it does, it does still have
that feeling of too much dessert for me.

When Pike says, "Oh no, are we in the
musical again?" I'm like, "Yes, exactly.

There is no normal day on this ship.

It is, it is too much."

Uh, but, uh, you know, the, at least
the, the self-aware humor is there.

Rob: And I could see, I could see,
you know, Trelane's interference

could have been a good justification
for, um, the puppets as well.

So it didn't get to that disappointing
thing of, you know, it was all a dream—for

me, a disappointing thing for me.

Um, but there's only so many times
you can pull out your Q-like character

card in one season to cause, uh,
you know, the gimmick of the week.

Kevin: Yeah, when Pike said,
"Hmm, I'll reason through this.

Oh, it's gotta be that god.

That's the last time something like
this happened," I was like, "Really?

Really?" Every single episode
has something completely

unexplainable going on.

This is the one that you inferred
immediately that it was Trelane?

I, I'm not sure I buy that.

Uh

Rob: smart.

He's a very smart captain

Kevin: Yeah.

M'Benga was hilarious.

Rob: well.

Babs

Kevin: "I have space madness!"

Rob: And some stuff in there about like,
you know, covering it all up with space

madness, but then Ortegas coming in going,
"I have space madness, too." And you go,

the raised eyebrow was very good, doing
a very David Tennant, Doctor Who thing.

Um,

Kevin: David Tennant?

Surely you mean Leonard Nimoy.

Rob: Yes, of course.

Remember, remember the franchise
we are in, for God's sake, Rob.

Very Leonard Nimoy.

Kevin: Mm.

Rob: Oh, and oh, Kim Cattrall as well.

She was very good with the raised eyebrow.

Um, yeah.

Ortegas had a little bit, and then there
was little hints of Una and, um, M'Benga.

Kevin: Yeah.

I, I like she put her hand on his
hand and, and said a line like, "And

it's not just because I respect you
as a doctor." And he's like, "Oh, this

space madness is getting me somewhere."

Um,

so yeah, that was fun.

And what, uh, once again, uh, we had a
nice kinda debrief period at the end of

this episode where things went back to
normal, and we had a few scenes after,

and, uh, we had the crew together in
the, uh, lounge kind of, uh, agreeing on

what was real and what was not, and, uh,
taking a moment to go, "Yeah, we almost

got together in that space madness, uh,
moment. Um, let's not do that, but, uh,

yeah, I, I, I like you as a friend."

Rob: And Chapel mentioning something
that happened offscreen, so the, so

having the, the, the, like, the files
of everybody or something like that.

Um, but I part- Yeah

Uh, oh, no, you saw that part.

Um, but I particularly loved, uh,
especially it's connected from last

episode of, final episode of last season
with, you know, uh, Pike and Una sitting

there having a drink going, you know, "Do
you wanna talk about it? Um, I'll talk

about it when I'm ready," type of thing.

But here she's going, "I seem
to have missed a part of your

story," and he goes, "Let's talk

Kevin: I'll tell you, but I, well, I
have a guest star I need to tell it

Rob: I have a guest star I need
to talk to, but let's make the

promise, you know, come over, we'll
have a chat and talk about it.

For me, that was growth.

That is Pike growing going, I, I,
I was keeping things to myself.

This episode showed that I need to
open up and I will open up to all

my friends, and to a guest star
who's gonna go back to a soap opera.

Kevin: Well, is there anything else to
cover in this one before we move on?

Rob: Two episodes in a row for me
that were of incredibly high standard.

I mean, I've been really happy with
this season, uh, overall there's

been a, um, some ups and downs
and, and finding some consistency,

uh, genre-wise and content-wise.

But,

Kevin: Look, any episode where there's
no lost fingers is a win for me.

Rob: No gore.

No, no gore at all today.

Maybe the eating of the popcorn was
a little bit grotesque, but, um,

the, he, he was hoovering that up.

Um, but no, that, that, that, no notes.

That was, um, well, lots of notes.

We've just done a podcast on it.

Um, uh, uh, keep, keep up the great work.

That was, uh, that's been at
least, uh, three episodes in

a row of, uh, of high quality.

Kevin: Hmm.

Yeah, let's hope they can keep
the trend going through to the end

of the season

Rob: knock on wood

Kevin: But, uh, with casting Deidre
Hall from Days of Our Lives as

our ship's counselor, uh, looming
large this episode, we thought we

would explore other times that, uh,
casting choices were conspicuous,

uh, or a feature in their own right.

And, uh, we have gone to look
for other instances of stunt

casting in Star Trek history.

Rob: Now, off the bat, the, the
idea of stunt casting comes across

as a very easy, um, option to do.

But when you look into it, when it comes
to the world of franchise, uh, of this

particular franchise, Kevin Yank, it's c-
it'll be interesting to see how you have

perceived the term stunt casting within
the world of Star Trek because there

can be many different levels of is it a,

Kevin: I agree.

There are a lot of cameos to choose from,
and not all of them are created equal.

Not all of them serve the same function.

Rob: And something I've been thinking
about, is it just the stunt of

choosing someone from our reality
and their big name to bring into it?

Or is it the stunt casting of bringing
in a character or an actor who plays

that character coming into that world?

Is that the stunt casting?

Kevin: For me, what I landed on is that
the character they play in Star Trek

echoes their celebrity in some way.

Rob: Excellent.

Excellent

Kevin: I mean, a cheap version of it,
I don't know, stop me if, if I'm, uh,

picking yours here, but, uh, Dwayne
Johnson as, uh, The Rock in Voyager.

Rob: You have literally picked my episode.

Kevin: All right.

Maybe we'll,

Rob: the

Kevin: maybe we'll circle back to that.

Rob: But then there's the hidden Easter
egg within that of sure you've got the

stunt casting of, uh, Dwayne Johnson.

Sorry, he is credited as The Rock.

But then there's the
Easter egg within there.

You've got the stunt casting of
the brilliant Jeffrey Combs and

of course, uh, Martok himself.

Um, but

Kevin: It is a rich episode, yes.

Rob: Yeah, so we're not going
for Christian Slater's stunt.

Kevin: No, I think there's a whole
bunch of those where, uh, it seems

like actors are fans of the franchise
and they're like, "Let me in there."

You know, there's Whoopi Goldberg
for, for crying out loud as Guinan.

Like big stars joining the st- the ship.

Rob: And especially when
she joined Star Trek.

This was in like '87
where there was a stigma.

There was television was one thing
and film was another, and film was

prestige and people did not cross over.

If you were coming into television,
it was showing, indicating

the waning of your career.

And at this point in 1987,
Whoopi Goldberg was on the rise.

If anything, she had risen.

She was a Oscar-nominated, um, a movie
star, legitimate movie star of comedies

and drama, was a celebrated, Broadway
performer, and she was on the rise.

This is before she won her
Oscar for Ghost, obviously.

But for her to go, "Not only do I want to
appear in Star Trek Next Generation, the

TV show, I want to come on regularly."

Kevin: Make me a recurring character.

So yeah, there, there are cases
like that where the s- the sense

is they, they asked to be on.

Then there are other big gets as
well, like I think all the way back

to Joan Collins appearing in "The
City on the Edge of Forever" in TOS.

She was a huge movie
star at the time as well.

But that felt less… Like, unless
someone wants to teach me something I've

not heard, I don't think that was Joan
Collins in, uh, uh, the '60s saying,

"I'm such a big Star Trek fan, I want to
appear on the Enterprise one week." Um,

and she wasn't even on the Enterprise.

Um, that was the franchise opening
the, the, the big bag of money and

spending it on a big name in order to
pump up their new series at the time.

Uh, and, and so I, I… That's a
kind of stunt casting, I suppose, but

that is more like casting for effect.

I think what I am looking for is,
is, um, you were cast in something in

Star Trek and the way they have used
you echoes what you're known for.

Rob: 'Cause I was also thinking of,
um, the stunt casting of the character.

So bringing back a DeForest Kelley
in, um, Encounter at Farpoint.

Bringing back, um, uh,
Jimmy Doohan for Relics.

Um, even having Patrick Stewart in the
opening episode of, uh, The Emissary for

Deep Space Nine or, um, Armin Shimerman
appearing in the first episode of Voyager.

That type of this is someone you know
to help kick off this new series that

you don't know, but it's in, within

Kevin: Yeah, for me that's
more just a crossover.

Like, the, the, the casting choice
is not the interesting thing there.

It's more of a writing choice.

All right, so I'm, I'm gonna start
us off because I've… I, I landed

on a really early one, and then we
can talk about Voyager in a moment.

Um, so where I'm taking us first is,
uh, is the original series, season

one, episode eight, "What Are Little
Girls Made Of?" The demise of Roger

Korby, which feels like we are overdue
to, uh, to look at in detail, after

that character appeared last season.

Rob: No Korby this season.

Kevin: And, uh, it was the first time that
the actor who played Lurch on The Addams

Family, Ted Cassidy at the time, was
cast as a looming presence in Star Trek.

In this, he played Ruk, uh, a huge kind
of, uh, towering android of ancient

origins that Roger Korby has found on
the planet EXO-III, and he only has

faint memories of the ancient ones
that, uh, that built him and his kind.

Uh, and it is revealed through
this episode the androids of

EXO-III had decided the ancient
ones needed to be destroyed.

And, uh, yeah, there are, there are
knockdown, drag-out… There are…

More than once, Ted Cassidy lifts
William Shatner, not a stuntman,

lifts William Shatner over his head.

Uh, and then it cuts to a stuntman
being thrown across the room.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin: But he was, uh, he was not
just big, he was strong, is what

I learned by rewatching "What Are
Little Girls Made Of?" And, uh,

really well-known at the time.

So The Addams Family TV show, the classic,
had just ended in 1966, so Ted Cassidy

would be a Household name, massive
star of a massively popular TV series.

And, uh, right after that, he, he took
on a bunch of roles, including this

one in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?"

And it was not the last time
that Lurch appeared in Star Trek.

If you'll remember, in The Next
Generation, we had Carel Struycken,

who played Lurch in The Addams
Family movies, come and play Mr.

Homn, Lwaxana Troi's, uh, butler.

Rob: That's right, and I believe
that actor is coming out, 'cause he's

also appeared famously in Twin Peaks.

He's coming out doing a, a convention here
in Australia very soon, as of recording.

But, um, yeah, two Lurches, two

Kevin: Two Lurches in, Star Trek.

It, it, it… I could not
go past the double up.

Um, so good.

But yes, I did watch "What Are Little
Girls Made Of?" this week, and,

um, yeah, it is, it is a classic.

I've, I've read a bit, uh, about
the making of this episode, and

this script had a bumpy ride.

There were lots of free rewrites
and accusations of plagiarism and

self-plagiarism that the, uh, the writer
was apparently cribbing from some of his

own scripts from other, uh, properties.

And Gene Roddenberry, as was his wont at
the time, did a full rewrite of the thing.

Uh, the fact that, uh, the third
act, uh, cliffhanger is literally

Captain Kirk hanging by his fingers
from a cliff was a point of pride

for Gene Roddenberry at the time.

That was one of his contributions to this.

But, um, yeah, it's a good episode.

It's also very interesting to watch,
uh, in the shadow of Strange New Worlds

now, because this, this is the episode
where so much of what are Christine

Chapel and Spock's relationship like?

How… who knows Roger Korby?

Who's heard of Roger Korby?

Like, um, Captain Kirk mentions several
times he has always wanted to meet

Roger Korby, and so the fact that
they must be kept apart in Strange New

Worlds comes down to that one line.

But, like, one of the very next lines
is Christine Chapel, uh, chiding Spock,

saying, "Spock, have you ever been
engaged?" And, uh, surely everyone knows

that he was engaged to T'Pring by now.

Rob: Of course he was.

Yeah, come on.

Come on, Chapel.

Kevin: Uh, but yes, it's, it's, uh, fun
to watch and, um, uh, creepy as well.

Like, they, they beam down to EXO-III,
and Korby and his helper are there, and

along with the, uh, the scene-stealing
young Andrea, who is, uh, the scantily

clad lady android that, uh, Roger
Korby has made, and they're all just

acting a bit off, and one by one
they are revealed to be androids

until at the end in, uh, uh, Korby
himself it turns out to be an android.

Rob: Yep.

Yep, yep, yep.

Kevin: So yeah, good one.

And, and, uh, amaz- I was just… I always
think of Lurch as, like, he's got two

words, "You rang?" Uh, and, and that's it.

Uh, Lurch has a lot of lines.

Lurch, Ted Cassidy has a lot
of lines in this episode.

Uh, he does well.

He, he gives some real, like, creepy
exposition about the ancient ones,

and, uh, Kirk is, like, dealing with
him like he deals with any computer.

He tries to catch him in logic traps.

And, uh, when, when Kirk manages to
rekindle his memory that they had to

kill the ancient ones, and they did
it by overcoming their programming

because survival is more important
than protection of your creators, and,

uh, Lurch just, like, when he makes
that realization, he goes, "That was

it. That was the missing element,"
and then throws Kirk across the room.

It's just real good stuff.

Rob: It was, it, he had such an
iconic, like especially his brow.

So his brow and his eyes, he had some
really penetrating eyes I remember

from his, uh, appearances as Lurch
and also in other, uh, TV shows after.

He, yes, that very iconic,
um, yeah, eyes and, and brow

Kevin: Ted Cassidy was kind of gaunt.

He was like a very slim but tall guy.

But for this epis- for this,
uh, part, they, they dressed him

up in, like, a padded outfit.

And so he looks like, uh… Well,
the, the androids in this are, are

discussed as golems through several,
uh, memos about this show, and j-

that's what they were going for,
was just this, this hulking presence

who just was as wide as he was tall.

And so much of that was, like, padding in
the outfit that they deliberately decided

to, to change his look from that gaunt,
um, slim tallness into the wide, uh,

um, yeah, the wide, muscular presence.

Rob: Excellent choice.

Well, speaking of muscular, let's,
uh, let's jump ahead to Voyager.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: Season six, episode 15.

Tsunkatse.

Tsunkatse is our, uh, episode
of focus here where, um, uh,

they're on shore leave on Voyager.

They've got a bit of downtime, and some
of the crew are, uh, going down to the

planet, uh, and enjoying a bit of, um, uh,
fighting, a new fighting style, uh, that's

going on m- much in a pa- cage or a pit.

Um, uh, Chakotay in particular
is having a really good time.

Uh, Janeway is going off to, uh, have a
bit of, uh, shore leave somewhere else,

and so Chakotay is put in charge, but he
uses his, um, uh, power to give himself

the free time and put other people in,
uh, positions of power back on Voyager.

Um, uh, Tuvok and, uh, Seven of Nine,
instead of actually having shore

leave, they go off to witness some
scientific anomaly out in space.

They get, uh, caught and taken to
this, you know, floating prison, uh,

where they are turned into fighters,
and those are the fighters that

are used in the, uh, fighting that
everyone likes at, uh, Voyager.

Of course, Tuvok is very, very
injured and, um, uh, Seven of

Nine has to s- go in his place
and, and fight many, many people.

First up being our cameo The
Rock before he made himself

offi- official and legitimate by
being his full- his actual name.

Um, so we only have The Rock
for one scene, um, and it's

Kevin: And no lines.

No lines.

One, one eyebrow, but no lines as far as I

Rob: li- there's a, there's a couple of
lines he has in there about, you know,

"I'll, I'll defeat you," and, "I'll
beat you," and all that type of stuff.

Not much in the way of any depth, but
it's, it, his presence is a learning

curve for, uh, Seven of Nine, 'cause
there is a moment where she shows mercy.

She hesitates in finishing
the ba- bat by destroying him.

Uh, well, not destroying him but
just, you know, incapacitating him.

And, uh, that is where The Rock, or
Champion as he is called here, um, takes

that weakness and beats the absolute
crap out of her and wins the bout.

So it's a learning experience for her.

So yes, there's the, there's
the Trojan stunt casting here.

You go in for The Rock, and then
when you get there, you realize,

actually, we've got far more
interesting, uh, stunt casting.

Uh, two actors who have just finished
up work on Deep Space Nine, uh, and,

uh, we've got Jeffrey Combs and, um,
Martok himself, um, uh, as a Hirogen

warrior who, uh, trains up, uh, Seven of
Nine to be ready for her final battle.

So yes, there's the, it, it wa-
th- there was a lot of publicity.

I remember of the time when it
was coming out, there was so much.

It was stunt casting.

It was literally, The Rock was the biggest
thing in wrestling at the time, and this

was season six, so it's getting towards
the end, and they were desperate to go,

"We need people to get into this show."

So I remember they had Jason
Alexander do an appearance early on,

which wasn't really stunt casting,

Kevin: No, uh, like he played
a very distinct character.

There was no… What was his
character's… There was no

George Costanza about this guy.

Uh, but definitely, uh,
a, a big household name.

Like, everyone would have recognized
him instantly, and that was the year

right after Seinfeld wrapped as well.

But, uh, I agree with you that, um,
that, uh, The Rock being cast as

a wrestler who raises his eyebrow
in the exact same way, it was, it

was very much, uh, done for effect.

And, uh, my understanding is this was a,
uh, an explicit promotional partnership.

The, that UPN was airing WWF wrestling
events at the time, and that this

crossover was devised of, like, "Let's
get the wrestling fans into Star Trek

and the Star Trek fans into wrestling."

Uh, I am not sure how successful
a, uh, plan that would have been

Rob: No.

No, not at all.

But it clearly, yeah, it is … 'Cause
it was pushed so hard, not just within,

you know, the WWF and, um, uh, UPN, but
like it was on Entertainment Tonight.

It was everywhere in all the,
um, the, the sci-fi magazines

and all that type of stuff.

This is, you know, just before
the internet really exploded with

social media and stuff like that.

So it, it was really pushed hard of
going, "The Rock is on Star Trek.

You've got to watch this show.

You gotta go in and tune in.

And when you go there, you might wanna
stick around and watch more." Um, and

who doesn't wanna sit around and watch,
you know, all the crew, you know, have

… There's, like there's a moment where on
their, in the galley, or they're in the,

they're in the food court—the food court.

Um, and like Chakotay and Paris
and, um, Harry Kim, and B'Elanna's

there as well, and they're all just
like shirt-fronting each other.

It's just like, oh, they're going,
"I, I could defeat you." "No, I

could beat you." And then Harry and
Tom do a weird sparring-type scene.

it's, it's it's

Kevin: They're all wrestling mad.

Rob: It's so gross.

It's so gross.

They're

Kevin: weird.

Rob: I'm the tough guy." "No,

Kevin: yeah.

Rob: guy."

Kevin: How often does crews of the
Enterprise fall in love, uh, with

random, like, black and white films
from ancient Earth, quote-unquote?

I suppose, uh, the, the getting
obsessed with wrestling falls in

that same category in a way, but
it just, it, it felt a little off.

It was not the, uh, not the
color of Star Trek to me.

Rob: It was really o- especially
because, uh, Jeffrey Combs's character

talks about we have blue matches
and red matches, and red matches are

where there are fights to the death.

Um, but the Voyager crew seem to
be blissfully unaware of anything

other than just these blue matches.

So maybe they only do red matches
on certain planets, but that

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: isn't, uh,

Kevin: It's after Starfleet's bedtime

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly.

But there is that moment.

They're having a great time.

Oh, but as soon as one of their
crew's in there, they're going,

"Oh, hang on. We can't do this."

I'm going, "Now, come on, people.
You- you're- you're okay with the

mindless, faceless, uh, people playing
in this fight, but as soon as one of

yours, that's a bit of hypocrisy."

Um, but yes, uh, Jeffrey Combs does a…

Kevin: Combs is great.

J.G. Hertzler, also great.

In my memory, Martok is
literally in this episode.

Like, he I know he's meant to be a
Hirogen, uh, uh, from across the galaxy,

but, uh, in my mind it's just Martok again

Rob: Yeah, he doesn't do the, uh, JG,
uh, JG doesn't do the Martok snarl or

the thing that he does with his teeth
and type of thing that is very Martok.

But the- he plays it very serious.

He plays it very straight.

Like he's, he, he is, he is sharp
as an arrow, straight as an arrow

just going, "This is, I am doing,
I am doing Shakespeare in the Park.

I am doing, you know, Chekhov.

Kevin: Makeup

Rob: S- I am," yeah, full Hirogen outfit.

Combs is great, but Combs is kind of
phoning it in a little bit 'cause what

we're used to with Combs, Combs can be so
good, can be so delicious, so theatrical.

Um, but yeah, his, um, his character here
is quite, um, one note and just, yeah.

So anybody, anyone else would
make it boring, but just because

it's Jeffrey Combs he's just
a delight to see on screen.

But you've seen him do
better in Star Trek.

He had better material in,
in other a- appearances.

But JG, uh, Hertzler
is so good, is so good.

Plays it down the line and
he has a great, uh, chemistry

with, um, with, uh, Jeri Ryan.

And it's a great reveal at the end.

He's training her up for the final
battle, and you see it coming a mile away.

He goes, "Well, who am I
going up against?" And it's,

Kevin: It's me.

Uh, yeah,

Rob: the final line,
"Would you have killed me?

Would you have killed me?" And she goes,
"I do not know." Of course you don't know.

Wonderful.

Kevin: It's a bit of a, uh,
anticlimax that The Rock is not

the big, uh, final challenger.

He's just one dude on the way to victory.

Rob: It clearly, it literally is
the Star Trek people have gone,

"Okay, we've gotta do this thing.

We have got to incorporate
th-this guy into our show.

We'll give him one scene.

We'll get him w- to win, you know?

We'll get him to do his eyebrow thing.

But who's the big bad or the big focus?

That's okay.

We'll, we, we'll bring
our people in, okay?

The Rock can appear for one
scene, but we're gonna bring in

Jeff, we're gonna bring in JG.

They can be the focus of this episode.

Thank you very much."

Kevin: Good on 'em.

on

Rob: Yeah

Kevin: Star Trek royalty, J.G. Hertzler.

Rob: Yes

Kevin: Uh, before we wrap up this week,
I can't, uh, let one last mention go

unmentioned, and that is from Enterprise,
the first season episode Detained,

in which Dean Stockwell appears as
Colonel Grat opposite, uh, Scott Bakula,

reuniting the duo of Quantum Leap.

Rob: How could I not have found that?

I

Kevin: And Dean Stockwell even
holds a PADD at one point and, and

like punches it like he did his,
uh, controller to talk to Ziggy in

Rob: talk to Ziggy.

Like, or Ziggy or Gushie.

Don't forget Gushie was,

Kevin: Yeah, Gushie was there too

Rob: Gushie was there too, and Gushie
was having an affair with, uh, with Tina.

I remember that.

Um, oh, all the dramas that
happened for Al back in, uh, 1999.

Kevin: Yes.

So yes, uh, for me that's stunt casting
as well just because, uh, seeing the

two of them together, uh, arguing
over, over, um, de- debate of the

week, it felt like, uh, slipping into
a warm bath of Quantum Leap for me.

Rob: And was, uh, was Dean Stockwell's
character, uh, a womanizer who liked to

talk about all the, uh, the, the female
body parts and how the, his, his, his

long line of, of women from the past, and
it would make Archer feel uncomfortable?

Kevin: Uh, no, I think he played it a
little straighter for, for Star Trek.

He was, uh, just in charge of a
political prison and, uh, and, uh,

Starfleet is not having unjust, uh,
unjust locking people up, and that,

that is what they come to a head over.

Uh, it's a good episode.

I, I would watch it, especially
if you're a Quantum Leap fan.

Rob: I am, I did, I, I am ashamed
that I did not know that the two of

them appeared in Enterprise together
because yeah, I, I, I… It was, it was

compulsory viewing when I was in high
school and I have the, I have multiple

box sets of it with new editions where
they're allowed to be using the stock

music from, uh, the '50s and '60s.

Um, incredible show.

Um, we should do a podcast on that.

Kevin: Hmm.

Yes, indeed.

Rob: Um, but that's a really good
bit of stunt casting as well.

Dean Stockwell was a very,
very, very good actor.

Lovely actor.

Kevin: All right, well, I think that's it.

We're, uh, we're powering on
through the end of this season

and things are trending upwards.

I'm, I'm happy with the way this is going.

Rob: I'm very, very happy as well.

There's definitely, you know, it- the
last couple of episodes have le- been

legitimately good, and you've just been
able to go, "This is good fun." And the

quibbles you can have once or twi- you
know, a little quibble you can have, you

can have that with any Star Trek episode.

Um, yeah, getting back to a point of
what was- made epis- season one so

strong, we would just come back and
go, "Can you believe they've done that?

That's great. Look at this." So we
missed that a little bit last season.

We, we went into season three a bit,
"How's this gonna be?" Um, and so I'm

very happy with our, uh, our seeming
momentum that we're picking up.

Kevin: Well, until next week, Rob,

Rob: Say it.

Kevin: I have space madness!

Rob: Sorry, I'll just have to uh,
button up my shirt before I go.