Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Rob.

Kevin: And me, Kevin

Rob: Um, now we just gotta
get to the end of this hour.

We gotta get to the end of
this hour, and then we are off.

We're, we're… The end of our shift.

Kevin: tick.

Yes.

It's the 24 episode, Rob.

It's Off-Hour.

Rob: Yes, and, like, I've been thinking
that this was kind of like the non-genre

hopping episode, but I have been,
I've been told, and now people have

been observing, it's like it's 24 or
it's a, a disaster movie, uh, tribute

Kevin: mean, disaster movie, I've
heard it framed that way as well, and

maybe that's what they were going for.

But I think it is very clearly like
they, they have the trappings of 24.

They have the on-screen
counters at the ad breaks.

They have the split screens to
reinforce the fact that things

are happening in real time.

It, it felt very much 24
first and foremost to me.

The fact that they were telling a disaster
story, I mean, that's something we've seen

in Star Trek before, and I almost consider
that in genre rather than off genre.

Rob: As we have talked about in
previous episodes, like, like a

whole episode called Disaster.

Kevin: Exactly.

I can't believe I burned it last week.

I should've used it this week.

Have I got a show for you.

We've talked about it one week ago.

Rob: Let's talk about it again.

Let's talk about it again.

Kevin: Um, yeah, it was good.

It, it impressed me that this episode
was kind of the opposite of Disaster.

Last week I talked about how Disaster
separated our crew into odd combinations,

and then they couldn't talk to each
other, and they had to figure out stuff

without being able to communicate.

This one was very much like
everyone could communicate with

each other most of the time.

And in fact, that, like, comms hopping and
teamwork across vast swaths of the ship

at once, and everyone's on a live channel
at all times was kind of the point.

And so in that sense, it was
kind of opposite of Disaster in

a way, which is, is fun, too.

Rob: Yes, very much so.

I mean, despite the split screen
stuff, which I really loved,

which is a very much… I, I think
they did that incredibly well.

It's a very, it's an, it's not used that
much as a storytelling technique, but

when it is used, uh, it can be really,
really effective, and it was here.

Um, but the, there was no real,
it wasn't all superficial.

And like, especially with our Film
Noir episode, it was black and white.

It was, you know, it was hats not
sitting properly on people's heads,

um, fedoras and stuff like that.

But, um, this one was particularly the,
the, it was ingrained within the story.

Yeah.

And it's more about how these characters
deal with it and how, like you said, they

unify and find their place to solve it.

Kevin: This, yeah, there's some of
these… Like, this one felt like

there's the Star Trek of it all, and
then there's the, the, the form or

the genre or the trappings of the
week that Strange New World brings.

And sometimes those two things support
each other, and sometimes they're in

tension and even fighting each other.

And we've seen some of those episodes
where the, the, the genre or the format

or the style was fighting the Star Trek.

This one, they felt very simpatico
to me, to the point where I was like,

"I could… This could be Star Trek
every week, and I would be very happy."

Rob: Yeah, I, that, I, I was
convinced it would goes, "Ah, this

is just a pure Star Trek episode."
Um, and that's the benefit of it.

I, I, you know, I'm just
leading from the front.

I loved this episode.

I think this has been my
favorite of the season so far.

Kevin: I, I loved it.

I found it a hard watch at times.

The, the stuff with M'Benga's injury
I found distressing to the point

where I was like, "I don't know if I'm
actually enjoying this." But, uh, but

it was so, uh, so much of what I enjoy,
which is like professionals getting

it done, that, that I was here for it.

It was just a…

I was not super keen to immediately
rewind it and watch it again, let's say.

I had to, I had to kinda
work myself back up to that.

Rob: There were, again, e- elements
of, uh, gore that have been

scattered a little bit through this

Kevin: It's a strange choice.

They seem to be leaning into it this
season, like, "Where are our opportunities

to snap people's fingers off? We need
one every episode." It's a little weird.

Rob: Or break the perfect legs of Rebecca
Romijn, um, under, under gravity pressure.

Um, but, that being said, I
remember there was a… It happened

in the news back in the '90s.

It's, it, it's, it was a, it was like
an Edison moment type thing of all

this type of stuff happening where
there was an example of something

like that happening with M'Benga.

It happened in a subway, um, and someone,
like, was pushed or shoved down, uh,

and, and they were caught between
the, the subway car and the platform.

And that was turned into an episode of one
of my favorite TV shows called Homicide:

Life on the Street, and it was, um, it
was basically a two-hander with Andre

Braugher, uh, from Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

This was his character, the
homicide detective, Pembleton.

He shows up and goes, "What? I'm here
for a homicide. The guy isn't dead." And

the actor, the guy who was, uh, playing
the guy trapped was Vincent D'Onofrio,

and it's a similar situation of Vincent

Kevin: as good as dead.

Yeah

Rob: Yeah, and that was
the M'Benga character.

Um, and so I've seen this storytelling
told before and h- but how it was

done here and how it worked on the
relationship between M'Benga and Chapel

especially, it's kinda come out of the
blue, but kind of what we're expecting

because we know where we're heading
and M'Benga going, "Uh, I'm gonna

go. I'm gonna transfer outta here."

So to have, you know, Chapel find her
place and find her feet and what this

means and their relationship, especially
with the flashbacks at the start or the

previous episodes where we've seen how
much they've been through with the Klingon

War, um, that was a, you know, one of the
hard-to-watch moments because of the gore,

but also it was powerful with, um, both
of their acting and their connections,

and the, the writing of that was beautiful

Kevin: There's another connection for Star
Trek fans, and I hesitate to bring it up,

but it, it was there in the room for me.

It was the death of Anton Yelchin, who
played Chekov in the reboot films, and,

uh, was crushed to death by his car
at home in a, in a tragic accident.

And as soon as that happened, I was
like, "Oh, no, it's just like Chekov."

Uh, a- and I'm, I'm sure that was
not on their minds, but it was there

for me as a fan, and it, it was a-
an unfortunate connection that, uh,

took me out of it for a little bit.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin: Um, the "Is M'Benga going
or staying?" stuff was… And,

and the appearance of Dr. Boyce
were interesting elements for me.

It's all, it's all a little topsy-turvy
because, A, this, this wa- this

whole episode was putting M'Benga's
life in danger, and we know M'Benga

lives a, a, a happy life to appear in
two future episodes of the original

series as a doctor on the Enterprise.

So, so we're not too worried for
him, but, you know, things can

happen in Star Trek, parallel
universes or whatever it might be.

So, so yeah, I was a
little worried for him.

But then Phil Boyce was the doctor
in The Cage who gave, uh, Pike his

martini and his, um, you know, doctor's
confessional sort of conversation.

And it's… So it's weird that…
Because we know another doctor is

coming because the second pilot of the
original series, Where No Man Has Gone

Before, it has Dr. Mark Piper in it.

And so if there is gonna be a
new doctor come on board and

maybe, uh, you know, muscle in on
M'Benga's turf, I'm waiting for Dr.

Piper to show up.

But no, they went backwards instead
for no reason I can really detect

Rob: Yes, because we know, uh,
McCoy, the new McCoy has been cast.

Um, Thomas Jane has been cast
as McCoy, and Sulu has been cast

Kevin: Yeah, so how, are we
gonna skip right over Dr. Piper?

I

Rob: The thing.

Is- what about Piper?

What about Piper's dues?

Is p- you know, are we gonna p-
are we gonna pay the Piper or what?

So it was good to have Boyce
there and have his, his different

energy within the space and how he

Kevin: Good to have him there,
and yet they couldn't resist the

saying, "Oh, he was just interim CMO
before." Uh, I noticed that as well.

They had to knock him down a
peg, uh, to give him a chance

to bui- build back up again.

It's s- so strange.

Rob: But the highlight for this
episode, I, I believe, and I don't

know if you've, uh, is the focus
on Scotty and his, his coming to

become the Scotty that we kinda know.

We've- I've

Kevin: To connect with his ship.

The, yeah, the, yeah.

Rob: M- um, it's, yeah,
Martin Quinn has been doing an

incredible job as, as Scotty.

We've loved his addition.

His work with Pelia, that type of,
um, mentor, you know, uh, mentee

relationship has been incredible.

Kevin: Effortless precision
in his performance.

The, the, the g- from the gags, uh,
w- with the accent in the turbolift

to playing, without naming it,
playing the claustrophobia of being

in the Jefferies tube and, "I think
I'm running out of air," and just,

like, his jitteriness in that space.

Um, it was incredible,
like, tour de force.

I feel like we saw every color
of Scotty in this one episode.

Rob: And yeah, his, uh, his,
his communication work with,

uh, Pelia was incredible.

Their sort of like matching each
other and helping each other and

supporting each other, and it

Kevin: the technobabble with the, the, the
straw in the neutrino smoothie and, uh, I,

I just love like he, he, he, uh, you know,
puts forward his wild cockamamie theory

then takes his hand off the communicator
and then puts his back on and goes, "If

they exist," and takes it off again.

Just such good stuff there.

Rob: And it created one of the, one
of the most exciting moments, one of

the most moving moments, a beautiful
moment, uh, captured perfectly, and

there's a screenshot of it going around.

Kevin: The sparks flying behind his

Rob: behind his head and his hand
on the ship, and he closes his eyes

and he just goes, "It'll hold."

Kevin: I don't know if it was v-
visual effects or what, but when the

sparks were flying, there was like
some smoke that kinda came over his

shoulder and I was like, "Was that a
practical effect? If so, his back might

be on fire. Someone better check him."

Rob: And it slowed down as well.

I'm, um, yeah, I think slow motions
are overused a bit, but this was a

beautiful moment where… And now I, I
couldn't help but look at that and jump

ahead to Scotty having to watch the
Enterprise be destroyed in Star Trek III.

You're there going, yeah, this moment
where he touches it, and he goes, "I

trust this ship. I'm a part of this ship."

And you go, beautiful moment.

That's an engineering moment where you
just go, that's a character who's stepped

up and go, "This is me now." It's great.

Kevin: And I like the little detail where
Orte- Ortegas says, "Yes, Scotty does

always pick up, even at weird hours."
Like, he always answers the phone.

Um, w- was, was funny.

Uh, I think they're laying on the,
the Ortegas-Scotty, uh, professional

romance a little thick, where she
cannot mention his name without

throwing in a compliment at this point.

Rob: I, I'm okay with that.

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm

Kevin: Who, Scotty?

Don't you mean the best
engineer in Starfleet?

Rob: My friend too.

We're friends.

Did you know we're friends?

I know that guy.

I know that guy.

Kevin: I, I, have had this in my
notes for three weeks and I've

always forgotten to bring it up.

I am not gonna let it go past.

We need to talk about
this Vulcan cadet, A'Sha.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: her deal?

Rob: Exa- I have no idea.

She was actually all right this time.

Like if…

Kevin: She was all right.

She was still, she

Rob: we had her

Kevin: ludicrously unhelpful

Rob: I swear we've only had
her two times in the show.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, she's been in three or four
episodes this season, but she, she

seems to have one function, which
is to be conspicuously unhelpful,

and then the sh- the show moves on.

And it's like, point made, right?

The Vulcan's unhelpful.

So, A, I don't know how you make it in
Starfleet if you're that uncooperative

as a cadet, but, but B, I can only assume
that she is on a shelf being held for a

very important purpose later this season.

I assume there's some episode, some
story where she will come to the fore,

and the r- the reason she has been here
reinforcing her unhelpfulness episode

by episode will, will come to the fore.

But I don't, I don't know what it is.

I'm really looking forward to it,
'cause I think the performance is good.

I think it… she is a compelling Vulcan.

I just wish she wasn't so darn
annoying in h- in her unwillingness

to be a useful member of the crew.

Rob: I f- I found her annoying and
quite, you know, blunt in, uh, even

more blunt than, than, than, uh, Vulcans
are in her first appearance or so.

But in this one, I got a sense of a
really dry sense of humor of what's

coming out of her, and I'm there
going, "Okay, I can dig this a bit

more." Less of the snarkiness on the
point of cruelty, but I'm liking this

Kevin: As a vegetarian, I
find your metaphor illogical.

Rob: But yes, hopefully she doesn't
have her eyes burn out and she's

possessed by a creature from

Kevin: Oh, yeah.

No, I hope they're not
just gonna kill her off.

I, I, uh, I don't know.

I mean, there is, there is no Vulcan
cadet A'Sha in Star Trek: The Original

Series, but there is a Lieutenant
Rahda, uh, the, uh, the bridge… The

relief beta shift, uh, um, commander.

Um, uh, she, she is a, a single
episode bit character who has a

bunch of lines in that episode.

I went back and watched it this week, um,
uh, "That Which Survives." A, a, I would

say underrated third season TOS episode.

Uh, I, I always forget it exists

Rob: And the original, um,
and the original episode she

had the, uh, bindi as well.

Um, and so that's a, a, a even
though Roddenberry said, you know, no

religion, that was even in the '60s
that was a sign of, you know, that is

a, uh, religious, um, um, artifact.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

I, I mean, har- hard to know in hindsight
what, uh, what Roddenberry's take

on that was, but definitely, like, a
signifier of cultural diversity, which

was even that early in this franchise's
history, it was a, a, a prominent

feature that they were putting on screen
deliberately, and, and that was, that

was one example of it, that character.

So it was good to see her back.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Also back this episode, the ion pod
from an original series episode, "Court

Martial," in which Kirk is court-martialed
for ejecting an ion pod allegedly before

giving the crew member inside sufficient
notice to get out and killing him.

Rob: Of course.

Of course.

Kevin: And so the whole thing
about, "We'll put on red alert.

That'll let Spock know he can get out
of the ion pod," that is all reference

to Court Martial where the question
in the, in the court martial is did

Kirk sound red alert before or after
he ejected the ion pod and the, the

computer records have been doctored
with to say he ejected before the red

alert and he remembers it as after and
who's lying, who's telling the truth?

Great episode of the original series.

Rob: Amazing.

Well, yeah, I love the, um, the, the
thrills of, you know, first Spock and then

La'an out there trying to ma- And, and the

Kevin: The whizzing particles
pinging off of stuff.

It was really, yeah, it

Rob: And the POV, so it's like
hitting the screen to represent the,

the, the screen of the, the helmet.

Yeah, that was quite thrilling stuff done.

Kevin: Yeah.

Really well done.

Um, yeah, great episode.

Rob: I think so as well, especially
the thing about it being a, you

know, w- a natural, I put that
in inverted commas, occurrence.

That was the… It was a problem
to solve as opposed to a villain

to defeat or to compromise with.

You know, that's what's the
great thing about, you know,

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home is.

You know, Leonard Nimoy didn't
want, you know, a villain.

They wanted a problem to solve.

And so that's what this was for me.

The- them

Kevin: They've been doing
that well this season.

I think even, even in an episode where
there was a prominent villain in Kor,

uh, with the Klingon occupation, it
still felt like our characters were

not up against Kor, an irredeemable
bad guy, uh, who is larger than life.

They were up against the political
forces that, that drove that occupation,

and it was a clash of cultures and
militaries, not, uh, one madman

who's gonna destroy the universe.

So I, I am enjoying that aspect of Star
Trek being, um, continued faithfully here.

Rob: And that gives us a chance
to focus on those characters

and those relationships even
more, and that's why we're here.

We wanna see these characters
interacting and not being, you know,

caught up in traditional or even
cliched tropes with, with sci-fi.

We wanna see these characters shine.

And they're doing- And it was
a great episode to see that.

Kevin: All right, well, the, of, of the
many, many elements of this packed episode

that we could have, uh, seized onto, the
one we chose to, uh, tie our star to this

week is chief medical officer careers.

Uh, is M'Benga leaving or is he staying
is a question this episode, and,

and, uh, I thought it might be fun to
walk down memory lane and explore the

careers of our other chief medical
officers, and maybe talk about an

episode or two al- along the way.

Rob: Yeah, I've got a couple of episodes
from, uh, uh, chief medical officers

that I haven't had much experience with.

So it was wonderful for me to dip
my toe into their, uh, uh, careers.

Kevin: Ooh, well, I, I chose one
episode in particular this week,

and it's a lighthearted one,
and I needed it to recover from

M'Benga's brush with death here.

But, uh, let's start at the beginning.

So I'm gonna pick up Leonard McCoy.

We'll get to Phlox at the end, so
we're gonna go by release order, here.

Yeah, yeah.

So we'll start with Leonard McCoy.

Rob: Um, well, yeah, my main,
uh, experience with McCoy

is, of course, the movies.

So I love DeForest
Kelley in his, like, 60s.

I love McCoy.

Um, I love him as that sort of like
that sage, um, you know, distiller

of advice with a cynical edge.

Kevin: And at times r- uh,
reluctant participant in everything

that's going on around him.

Like, I get the sense that
Leonard McCoy almost doesn't want

to be there most of the time.

The first word I wrote in my
notes about McCoy is outsider.

Like, he did… According to our records
here, he did not attend Starfleet Academy.

There's a, there's a, a little detail
dropped in the original series where

he's not familiar with the term
dunsel, which is a term used f- uh,

by upperclassmen at the Academy.

And the, the, this, along with a
couple of little bits and pieces of

lore here and there l- can lead us to
infer that he did not attend Starfleet

Academy with the rest of the crew.

He's a, a bit of a Luddite.

He doesn't trust transporters
and, and technology in general.

Like, he considers himself
a good old-fashioned doctor.

Although, when he travels back to the
20th century, he calls their technology

medieval, and so there is a, there
is somewhere in between where he's

a comfort z- i, in a comfort zone,
but I'm not sure exactly when it is.

Rob: Living in the dark ages.

Kevin: Yeah, career-wise, I figure,
like, he somehow ended up in

Starfleet and is not entirely sure
it's a good idea most of the time.

And when, by the time you meet him in the
movies, like, he, his, hi- his appearance

in The Motion Picture, he shows up on the
transporter platform with a full beard

in civ- civilian uniform, and Kirk has
drafted him back into Starfleet using the

little-known reserve reactivation clause
because he needs you, "I need you, Bones.

I need you." Uh, and so he, he
explicitly does not want to be there

in that movie, and yet somehow sticks
around for, for six whole movies.

Rob: There's a great line in Star Trek
IV when he's, he's there to sort of like

help shepherd Spock back to h- who he was.

So they used to have that
camaraderie in the earlier movies

when they're sort of like, "Oh,
we've been hanging out for a while.

That's okay." Um, but with Spock's
personality still coming back, McCoy's

doing that whole thing of like smiling at
him and going, "You really have gone where

no man's gone before," trying to get an
insight into death, but he still has that

irascible thing of going, "What the hell?

You're being so logical."

But there's a great moment when, um, Spock
says he's gonna have to make a guess.

And, and McCoy gives that great advice
of going, "I think what, what Jim is

Kevin: I trust your guesses more than most

Rob: Most people's facts, so I
will give him the best guess I can.

The beautiful moments where you see
that tenderness of Bones come through.

Kevin: Yeah.

I, I think Bones might have been, like,
my first favorite character in Star

Trek when I was… When it was just the
original series before TNG came out and

I was watching Star Trek and watching
the movies, Bones was my favorite.

And I think it is that, that, that
sense of being a, a truth speaker

and, like, um, I think it's the found
family aspect that I'm responding to.

You get the sense that Bones
is fleeing from something.

They make that explicit a
little bit in the 2009 movie.

They talk about how he's a div- he's
divorced and his, his ex-wife has left

him with nothing but his bones, and
that's where the nickname comes from and

Rob: That's always weird because he
was called Bones because that's another

phrase for a doctor is a, is a bone saw.

Yeah

Kevin: Yeah, it's, it… There's
a lot of weird things about those

Star Trek reboot movies, but, uh,

Rob: But Karl, Karl Urban is incredible.

Kevin: Yeah, the sense that McCoy was
never quite comfortable in Starfleet,

but that's where his found family
was, and that's what kept him there.

That's what, that's
what I love about McCoy.

And why it was especially touching
to see him in his last appearance in

Encounter at Farpoint in Next Generation,
where he's an admiral, uh, touring the

Enterprise-D with Data as his tour guide.

Um, that, that is… It's one
that it, I find it surprisingly

touching every time I watch it.

Like, in my memory, it's kind of a bit
of a, a gimmick in that first episode of

TNG, but the scene itself really works.

Uh, and I recently watched it with
the two boys that I'm introducing to

Star Trek, and when they recognized
him, they went, "Is that McCoy? Is

that McCoy?" Uh, they were excited,
too, so it still works today.

Rob: It is an anomaly.

It is just, you know, it's the
f- their, their first appearance.

He doesn't have any scenes with
anyone other than Brent Spiner,

and it's just… yeah, it's walking
down a corridor and that's it.

It- But it's, you know,

Kevin: It's really good.

Rob: DeForest Kelly made up
to look like he's over 150.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, definitely over 100.

Rob: Yeah

Kevin: What that scene tells me
is that even though it took Kirk

drafting him back into Starfleet in
The Motion Picture, he chose to stay

around and chose to stay around all
the way until then and was still an

admiral in Starfleet at that time.

That says a lot to me of like, it, it is
a change, it is a character arc for me

from someone who's like explicitly grumpy
about being here to spending his entire

life in, in the family that is Starfleet.

I love that.

Rob: Hmm.

Yeah, very much so.

Yeah, I think he was probably my
favorite when I was watching Star

Trek for the first time in the movies.

I always was drawn to McCoy and
just how, you know, modern he

appeared to be in his attitude and
how he's interacted with people.

Kevin: Yeah.

If I were gonna look for episodes that
have career moves for Leonard McCoy,

I mean, there's the mo- the start of
"The Motion Picture" that I mentioned.

I think the other one would be "For
the World is Hollow and I Have Touched

the Sky," which is the one where McCoy
comes down with xenopolysithemia, a

fatal disease, and then fortunately,
in the same episode, finds the

cure um, in, in, in the, uh, alien
archives of the world of Yonada.

Um, so, uh, it is, it
is just an okay episode.

Uh, some people like it,
some people like it less.

But it is a moment where McCoy explicitly
attempts to retire from Starfleet so

that he can spend the rest of his days
with a, a family, with a, a wife that

he is planning to marry in that episode.

And, and watching him at that crossroads
deciding to opt out of Starfleet and

then opt back in at the end, it's
really, like, poignant stuff around

which way does McCoy wanna take his life.

Let's move on to Beverly
Crusher, uh, born Beverly Howard.

Um, I have read, uh, something I forgot
is she explicitly grew up on the Moon.

She is a child of Luna, raised by her
grandmother, uh, and then widowed of

her husband, Jack Crusher, when Captain
Picard, uh, a friend of theirs, uh,

sends him on a fatal mission, the details
of which I believe we never learn.

She spends the first year of TNG on
the Enterprise-D, and then leaves

to go and be the head of Starfleet
Medical, which is a nice way of

saying she was fired from the show.

And then, uh, we had
Dr. Pulaski for a year.

That apparently didn't work out, and
Beverly Crusher came back to the ship.

Uh, but in-universe, that creates this
interesting career path where she,

she's the chief medical officer of
the flagship of the S- of Starfleet,

then goes to be head of Starfleet
Medical, and then comes back, for

the adventure, to be on the frontier.

Is, is just, like, starship
doctoring more to her taste?

Could she not put up with the bureaucracy
and politics of Starfleet Medical?

I think it's all there
for us to read into.

They don't go into it in too much
detail in the show because, in fact,

it was all to do with casting and
contracts and stuff behind the scenes.

But, uh, but still, an interesting
path, uh, for Beverly Crusher.

Rob: Um, yes, and we see later on
in, um, Picard she of course leaves

Starfleet and, uh, and works on the
fringes of, uh, you know, medical help

and health, um, before being drawn
back in by Picard and, uh, their son.

Kevin: It's all in, like, quick
expositional lines in a couple of scenes

in Picard, but when I went back and looked
at, like, what exactly happened there,

what, what we are told, I gather, is
that she fell pregnant to Picard on their

fifth time trying to have a relationship,
and then he went off and got in trouble,

attacked, in danger, uh, in his role, uh,
as, you know, a superstar of Starfleet.

And she chose in that moment to prioritize
the health and safety of her unborn child

that she had not yet told Picard about.

She was like, "You know what? The
right thing to do here is to leave and

not say anything." And she went off.

She left Starfleet, uh, left all of
her friends and found family behind in

order to look after baby Jack Crusher.

She went and worked for the Mariposas
organization, a, a, uh, Doctors

Without Borders in space, if you will.

Uh, and at the end of Picard, uh, I am
told she went back to h- to be the head

of Starfleet Medical branch as an admiral.

That la- last scene where they, they,
um, deliver Picard to the Enterprise

G or, or christen the Enterprise G
under, uh, Seven's command, um, she is

explicitly the head of Starfleet Medical
once again as an admiral at that point.

So she, she took the long way
around to get back to the same

job she had in season two of TNG.

Rob: Are you a fan of, uh, of
Beverly Crusher and, uh, her,

her adventures on the ship?

Kevin: I think she was poorly
served as a character and an actor.

Um, when she is given stuff to do, I
really enjoy what she does with it.

Uh, we… Uh, going back to Disaster again
last week when she had that, that scene

or sequence of scenes in the cargo bay
with Geordi, and she was doing her, like,

casting director of the Enterprise stuff.

An interesting parallel with her in
real life, that she has also been

artistic director of several theater
companies in real life as well.

And so that, that that would be
written into the character of Beverly

Crusher on board the Enterprise
is, is an interesting element.

And I don't know if I'm reading too much
into it, but it speaks to me of, like,

the writers were kind of desperate.

They, they had this empty
vessel of Beverly Crusher.

What is she gonna be about?

Well, what is, what are
the actor's hobbies?

Let's use that.

Like, if, if in doubt, let's write
the actor into the character.

Um, a- but when, when they did that stuff
with her, when they gave her s- screen

time, I find her compelling and enjoyable.

Uh, even at her, quote-unquote, "lowest
point" of falling in love with a

ghost in a candle, I think she gives a
compelling performance in that episode.

And so I, I think I am a, overall
a booster of Beverly Crusher.

W- why do you ask?

Rob: Just, uh, just good to find
out, um, you know, your thoughts

on the wonderful Gates McFadden.

Um, I'm always a fan of hers
because of her association

with the Jim Henson Company.

She was a choreographer of,
um, the, uh, creatures, puppet

creatures in The Dark Crystal.

So, um, she's talked about it
on podcasts and stuff like that.

I think she was on Michael Rosenbaum's
podcast, and she didn't seem to have the

best time working in that experience.

But, um, but yeah, uh, her connection
with, uh, the Jim Henson Company

always gives me a little bit of a,
a, a nod of respect and appreciation

for someone that connected with,
uh, the genius that is, uh, Jim.

Kevin: She is, if nothing else, a skilled
artist who cares deeply about her art.

And like reading between the lines
of her leaving and coming back to the

show, some of the, some of the oblique
remarks she makes about what happened

there is basically like, "I was too,
I was too forthright with my opinions,

and like I, I stood up for myself and I
stood up for my characters and I stood

up for my, my fellow cast members in a
way that was not always appreciated by

producers at that era of, of network
television. And I had to learn through

hard experience when to bite my tongue."

And, uh, I, I have great respect for
someone who cared a little too much and

got themselves into trouble because of it.

I think that's a, that's an
admirable quality, if not

always, uh, helpful on a set.

Rob: And sad- a lot, and especially
sadly a bit of a re- reoccurring

thing what we've heard about, um,
time for actresses especially on,

Kevin: in the '90s, that's,
of Star Trek, absolutely.

Rob: As we know with Terry Farrell
and her, uh, departure as well.

Um, yeah.

Kevin: Let's talk about, uh, your
favorite doctor I'm sure, Julian Bashir.

Rob: Well, I would… Let's go back.

Let's talk about Pulaski.

Kevin: Oh, oh.

All right.

Rob: 'Cause I watched an, I
watched an episode, Kevin,

Kevin: Oh, my goodness.

I looked up Pulaski's, uh, career
moves and I kind of went, "You know

what? There's barely anything here."
Because I feel like sadly, the show

gave up on the character very quickly.

Like, all I could find was a
couple of remarks of like Gene

Roddenberry didn't like her.

The show d- the, the producers didn't
like her, so they fired her a season in.

And, and she barely got any history or,
or opportunity to have career moves.

So what did you pull out?

Rob: I pulled out, uh, season two,
episode seven, "Unnatural Selection".

So that's an episode
primarily focused on Pulaski.

So we find out the career move for her is
why she wanted to go to the Enterprise,

and that she wanted to specifically.

So when she found out the position was
coming up, she, she was quite happy and

doing incredibly well on the ship she
was on, but she requested the transfer.

She requested it because she was a
big admirer of Jean-Luc Picard, and

she wanted to work closely with him.

She admired his work and his
career and all that type of stuff.

And through the course of the
episode, she's finding it hard.

She's got growing pains within fitting
into the, um, into the Enterprise, uh,

crew, especially her connection with,
uh, Jean-Luc, um, with the captain.

They don't seem to be
getting on very well.

She talks about that with, uh, Troi.

She's, um… there going, you know,
"I'm just- we, we just seem to be

cutting each other off and being short
with each other." There's a particular

moment where they're, you know, she
get- she gets very heightened and,

and cuts off Picard while discussing.

And classic, uh, Patrick Stewart walks
off, and just before he leaves, he

comes back and says, you know, you
know, "It would be nice if you actually

let me finish my train of thought."

Um, but in this particular episode,
there's, um… They come across

a ship where the people have aged
to death in rapid succession.

They go back to where the, the colony
or the science colony where they,

uh, where the crew of the ship that,
uh, have all died was, uh, last met.

Then there, the people are aging as well.

There's someone who looks like they're in
their 60s, but they're in their early 30s.

And there's a group of children
who they've, uh, been genetically

experimenting on, um, that they're
meant to be only, you know, about

10 years old or something, but they
look like they're in their mid-20s.

Um, and they're isolated on a runabout
with, uh, Data, and, uh, Pulaski is there

to find out what the cause of it is,
and she gets infected with the aging.

There's quite poor aging makeup
with, uh, uh, our Pulaski.

But Picard finds out through talking
with her previous captain why she

chose there, and he's trying to come
to terms with the fact and respecting

her views and respecting her and, um…

And it's a little wrap-up there
and going, "Oh, we found the cure,"

and everyone's back to normal.

And even the people on the colony, um,
they're, they've been de-aged as well.

And the final shot is them going back to
the ship with, uh, the people who are aged

to death and giving them a traditional
send-off and blowing the ship up.

But it's a, a primarily Pulaski-focused
episode, finding out how she's fitting

in with the ship, how she's dealing
with, uh, the crew and particularly

her relationship with the captain.

Kevin: It's an interesting duality.

I feel like the, the, um, like
making text what would've felt like

subtext on the set of like is, is
Diana Muldaur fitting into the show?

Uh, uh, I think it's a little
dangerous to put that in the script and

acknowledge it in s- in that kind of way.

But I, I respect it.

Like, I think that's, that's
real, real stuff that goes on, um,

in, in workplaces, and I'm glad
they didn't just gloss over it.

I've always thought of Pulaski as kind of
th- they… An overcorrection for trying

to get away from the original series.

Like, they, they w- would've gone,
"Well, Beverly Crusher didn't work

out, and that's probably because she
wasn't enough like McCoy. So let's make

another old-fashioned country doctor
who's grumpy a lot of the time and,

and a little irascible, and, uh, and
we'll just call her Katherine Pulaski."

Uh, McCoy… "Let's do McCoy
again," is, is kind of how I have

perhaps, um, oversimplified in
my head about this character.

I don't know if you agree with that.

Rob: No.

No, no, I've, I, I've only seen
very little of Pulaski's episode.

That's why I wanted to throw
myself in and see one of her best.

Um, 'cause she's also in Elementary
Data, which is like, you know, a lot

of people love that, uh, episode.

It's a, you know, one of those
strong episodes early in season two

they're going, we're getting back…

Everyone goes, "Oh, season four is
where it hits off," but you can see

elements in season two and three where
they're, uh, defining themselves.

So it's good to find an episode where,
you know, they're defining themselves

as a character and giving that
character some attention before they

go, "We don't know what to do with it."

And from watching the episode, you
know, it, it was 1989, so it still

feels very '80s tel- television and,
and rather basic sci-fi before they

really start exploring stuff with Ronald
D. Moore and all that type of stuff.

But there's an element of the
character that that spark is

there, and you can see that.

The, the actor is great, and the character
could've been great if they gave it

a bit more time, but they got… You
know, they, they stepped away from the

attention she probably should've got.

Kevin: Well, one of the things that's
often cited is that TNG gets really

good in Season 3 when Michael Piller
comes in with these, new writers and

explicitly takes the show in a new
direction, which is often summed up as

this show is about the characters and
their relationships with each other.

It's not about sci-fi premise of the week.

But you can see here in this episode
early in Season 2 that they're, you know,

they were playing with these dynamics
and character relationships, and that

stuff is compelling when they went there.

So it wasn't off the table.

Rob: It is very much from a
professional point of view.

It's not like the relationships
they have as people.

It's very much a case of, "I wanna
know how I can work better with my

captain," from a, you know, as… And
it's their unwritten professional lore

as opposed to, you know, "How do I get
on, how do I get on with this person?"

It's sort of like, "I wanna do better
as my job as a doctor. How do I work

better professionally with this person?"
So it's very-- They haven't fully got

there from s- to the Season 3 Michael
Pillar inclusion, but it is their,

there is a clash of personalities
from a professional point of view.

Kevin: Before we move on from this
episode, I think it's worth pointing

out an element that will be relevant
to our next doctor, which is the

element of the genetic engineering
of children in this episode.

Uh, this is like pre, uh, like
it's post Star Trek II and, and

Wrath of Khan and all of that.

So it was in the mix, this idea that the
genetic engineering was not, not the done

thing in the Federation, and yet it kind
of is like normal here in this episode?

Rob: It w- and especially when it comes
to, uh, yeah, it isn't looked upon as

like, "Oh, well, they've broken the law.

They've broken

Kevin: Yeah, no, it's, it's like,
"Oh, no, it went wrong, but this

perfectly acceptable thing went
wrong," is how it's framed, right?

Rob: And yeah, and there's literally a
moment where Pulaski looks at the, the,

you know, the mid-40s kid and says, "It's
not your fault. It's not your fault at

all." And it's like that generic, you
know, pure, unspeakable, naive, innocent,

you know, callow youth type of thing.

Um, but yeah, the-- all that,
all the politics of what genetic

engineering means, uh, that
comes into play with Bashir, but

definitely not played out here.

Kevin: Feel like they were still ramping
up to the importance of canon and,

and not themselves here early in TNG.

It was like, "They won't remember.

It

Rob: Eh, let's explore,
explore sci-fi ideas.

Let's just do

Kevin: Yep.

Uh, Julian Bashir

Rob: Love him.

Love Julian Bashir.

First couple of seasons, you hate him.

He's boring, he's dull.

They try to make him a, a love
interest for, for, um, uh, Dax.

It doesn't work.

Kevin: That's, my big impression of
Julian Bashir is they were throwing

a lot of stuff at the wall to try
and find something that would stick.

And as a result, he is sort of
a, a scattershot character with a

lot of, a lot of hobbies, a lot of
interests, a lot of attributes, and

a lot of histories and, and there's
a lot going on with Julian Bashir.

What is the arc look like when you, when
you squint your eyes and try to, like,

see the through line for this character?

What does it look like to you?

Rob: You s- you see a man who's
deeply-- He has a lot of shame.

A shame about where he comes from,
shame about how he has got what he has,

and feels like he's not worthy of it.

And that's a beautiful thing to bring to
a character, to think that I am who I am,

not because of me, but because of science.

And so he knows he has a gift, and
he knows he has a responsibility

to use it and save people.

But he also knows-- He also
thinks that he's a liar, that

he is not who he really is.

Um, uh, and that changes.

Like, when he first came in,
he just wanted to b- he wanted

to be the best doctor he could.

He came across as sort of like, like
an Ivy League type of, you know, doctor

who just did all the best things.

But you find out he came, he came from a,
you know, a, a, you know, a, a poor-ish

working class type of family, and they
wanted to excel and give their son the

better oppor- best opportunity they could.

But that's where he really gets
interesting when he is-- He looks like

the, you know, the pin-up for the perfect
St- Starfleet medical, um, officer.

Um, but once you tear that down, the,
the true heart of him is that he is,

you know, ashamed of, uh, what he is,
and he doesn't feel he's worthy of it.

But he uses his skills as best he can.

Kevin: Yeah.

I feel like they get there in the end,
and in hindsight, a lot of the, the, um,

the half-formedness of this character or
the uncertainty of this character, you,

you can kind of read into it what they
eventually, uh, established is that he

was illegally genetically modified by
his parents as a child because he was

underachieving in school and they wanted
to give him the, a, a shot at a future.

And so they, they went to an alien
colony and got illegal genetic, uh,

modifications done on him to boost
his, his, uh, mental abilities.

And, and that is the, the Julian Bashir
who feels like he is a lie, he is,

uh, he is a cheat, he is illegal, um,
and yet has excelled at Starfleet and

is, uh, has chosen a posting at the
fringes of the Federation, uh, to, to

practice "real frontier medicine" is
kind of the, the early phrase that,

uh, that is attached to that character.

And, yeah, it's obnoxious when you meet
him, and then in hindsight you're like,

"Oh, I can understand why the… where
that insecurity came from, and where

that, that need to overachieve came
from." And the, yeah, the cockiness

about what you were capable at, of at
the same time as projecting insecurity.

Like, um, I, I'm not sure any… Like,
no one knew where that was coming

from, but it was clearly a part of
the character, and the fact that they

were able to retroactively fit an
explanation to it is kind of satisfying.

Rob: Really m- it, it added so much to
Bashir, so it adds a, just that color.

Even when he does episodes which are in
many ways traditional, uh, or generic,

generic sci-fi doctor tropes with sort
of like, you know, solving an uncurable

disease or, um, later stuff where he
gets into, like he is deeply connected

to the best version of Section 31.

Like his stuff in the later seasons
where they're trying to recruit him in,

Kevin: With and the Founder
virus and yeah, the double agent

stuff, it's, yeah, it is good.

Rob: He is, he is the moral
compass of going, "I will not

Kevin: I often think of that
Section 31 stuff in negative terms

when I haven't watched it lately.

It's like, "Oh, they… When they
couldn't find anything else to

do with this character, you, you
give them a job in Section 31."

I mean, like, that's the Malcolm
Reed model, with apologies to

fav- everyone's favorite armory
officer on the Enterprise NX-01.

Malcolm Reed was a character that
they were constantly trying different

things with because they could never
quite figure out where he fit in the

show and where they fit in the cast.

And eventually they just seemed to give
up on writing stuff for the character,

and one of the, uh, desperate measures
they took is they had him be a secret

operative for Section 31 in that show.

And I think I project that back on
Julian Bashir unfairly and go, "That

is an example of them not knowing
what to do with the character but

they did great stuff with him.

Rob: No, the ch- the Section
31 stuff with Bashir is the

best Section 31 has ever been.

It's really what it should have
been and should have stayed at.

It's never meant to be the focus.

It's always meant to
be that shadowy force.

As soon as you bring it into focus,
it takes the sunshine, exposes it all.

So yes, him working, uh, um, you
know, side by side with, uh, William

Sadler, who was of course the Grim
Reaper in Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey.

Um, incredible moments.

Kevin: that those are the same
actor, those two characters

Rob: That's, that's range.

That is

Kevin: That is

Rob: Kevin Yank.

And of course, Bashir is nothing
without his relationship that they

discovered, a beautiful discovery
and they just ran with it with Garak.

Absolutely incredible to have someone
who's such a high moral compass, uh,

and has that shame within him and how
he is drawn to Garak who is nothing

but hidden in the shadows, but also
comes across with a bravado of, "I'm

amazing, I'm incredible. Ooh, you
don't know all that there is about me."

But there is a shame to Garak
as well, how he's been cut out

from the his Obsidian Order.

He's been rejected by
the Cardassian people.

The two of them don't see themselves
as worthy and they find each other,

and that's beautiful discovery that
you only can find by doing an extended

season of 24, 25 episodes a year and
finding out as you write each week.

Kevin: Yes.

W- with, uh, apologies to Ezri Dax, uh,
Garak is definitely Bashir's true love.

Rob: True love.

Yes, yes, yes.

Kevin: So as far as career moves, I
think the, the story with Julian is will

he remain in Starfleet after the truth
of his genetic modifications light?

Like, his story is one of being… Like,
whether his place in Starfleet is, uh, is

deserved, whether it will… Whether it
can be sustained in the light of truth.

And, uh, in the end he does stick around
and, He he, uh, pays his penance and,

and, uh, more than gives back, in return.

And at the end of that series,
I think he's just still

doctor on, on Deep Space Nine.

That's where we leave him, isn't it?

Rob: I think he… No,
I think he moves off.

I've got… oh, no, yeah, they do.

Julian and Ezri are staying on.

Um, uh, but yeah, he's, he was a, was
a crucial part of the war, obviously

with the, um, you know, you know,
his medical expertise was used quite

a lot, and he was right up the front
with, um, Sisko, who was one of

the engineers and, um, uh, driving
forces of bringing the war to an end.

So, um, not only did he find his
place, uh, and accepted within

Starfleet, he, uh, he thrived.

Kevin: Well, on to the Delta Quadrant
with, uh, the EMH or the Doctor.

Rob: One of my favourite actors.

Kevin: Like Leonard McCoy at first,
he does not want to be there.

Uh, he is, he is designed as an
emergency supplement only, and is

awfully put out for being drafted
into the chief medical officer role.

Um, apparently it's, it's a little unclear
when he becomes chief medical officer.

Like, the, the pilot of the series, he's
very much like, "I'm just an emergency

medical hologram." And then, uh, seven
episodes later, the title Chief Medical

Officer is mentioned for the first time,
and it's not clear where in that time

span he was officially given that role.

You can also kind of get the
sense that there was a lot

going on on Voyager at the time.

They got a little loose the titles, and,
and he just, called himself Chief Medical

Officer at some point, and no one was in a
mood to challenge him, and it just stuck.

Uh, but a lot of his early story is
struggling to be treated as a full

member of the crew, uh, not be taken
for granted, not be treated as a tool.

And that is kind of very much
the arc of the Doctor, is just

how much of a person is he?

It's a very, uh, Data story in that sense.

Um,

Rob: And there's also a lot of
stuff about, in the early days

about the mechanics of him.

Like he's meant to be on that

Kevin: Yeah.

Runs out of memory and

Rob: all that type of stuff,
which is kind of it has to be done

Kevin: good for its own sake, but it's
all like problem of the week level stuff.

It, it doesn't really
amount to a big arc most

Rob: But the, yeah, the big juicy stuff
is him, yeah, exploring his holographic

family, finding out what he loves,
what he can explore in the holodeck,

what, you know, discovering opera,
discovering, you know, his mentor program.

They tried to do a little bit
of that with Kes, but definitely

once Seven of Nine came along,
that mentorship, um, relationship

developed his character even further.

Um, and then of course, you know,
where we see him in th- you know,

thousands of years in the future.

But you could see the writers going,
"We're, we've struck gold with a, with

a, with an actor of Robert Picardo's
comic timing, dramatic timing, uh,

physicality, um, and presence, and let's
explore this concept but go even further."

'Cause if, uh, if he wasn't of the
standard or quality of actor he was,

he could have… They could have
turned the Doctor just into… They

could have written the character
out or not explored it as much.

But because of how good Picardo
is, they, um, they definitely

pushed it even further.

Kevin: The Doctor's career as the
Doctor is more baseline kind of platform

for them to explore things on top of.

It, it's very similar to going, "Let's
talk about Data's career as an operations

officer." There are no stories about that.

Data's… What about Data was not
his job, it was personal life, and

the same was true of the Doctor.

Nevertheless, I did pull out one episode
here, um, which I needed to watch to

recover from, uh, from the drama of this
week on Strange New Worlds, that is Season

6, Episode 13, "Virtuoso," in which the
Doctor becomes a celebrity on, uh, a

alien planet that has never heard music,
artistic expression of ar- any kind.

And, uh, they, they get him to
have concerts and get him to sign

autographs, and he has fan girls
sneaking into his sickbay, feigning,

um, illness or injury in order to
get some face time with the Doctor.

And at the climax of this episode,
the Doctor makes the fateful

decision that he will be leaving
Voyager, he will be retiring as a

doctor in order to remain on Qomar.

Uh, and everyone warns him he's making
a terrible mistake, and he goes, "You

just don't understand. I know what I'm
doing." And of course, by the end of

the episode, he has to admit he made
a terrible mistake, was fool, and,

uh, he will, he will never take his
Starfleet family for granted again.

But, uh, yeah, this was one of those
moments, like a, a, a branch in the

road that he… if, if Voyager had
left orbit a few hours earlier, he

might have been stuck on Qomar as a,
uh, forgotten has-been that has been

replaced by, uh, enhanced holograms
that can sing multiple notes at once.

And, and, uh, the woman he thought
was in love with him only considered

him a technical curiosity to be
replaced with a superior model.

Um, but yes, f- fun to watch the Doctor
at a, at a career crossroads in this one.

Rob: And I did like later on in the, in
the, in, in the series how they explored

like they do with, uh, Measure of a Man.

Like is, is Data, you know, sentient?

Is he a being?

Is he someone who deserves to be
treated as, you know, a living soul?

Um, and they do that stuff with, uh,
holograms as well, with, you know, is

he just a, a tool to be turned on and
off, or is there a personality there?

And it's,

Kevin: It becomes the photonics
versus organics storyline late in

Voyager, and that's good stuff too.

But again, that is all more like
personal life and, and yeah, yeah.

Career is like, I guess it is assumed
the Doctor is a product of his

programming and he was made to be a
doctor and he will forever be a doctor.

Rob: Well, and caree- well, he does
become a teacher, so his career

does shift to, you know, the year
3,000 where he, um, becomes a,

a, a teacher at Starfleet Academy

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, there was also, um, there was
Living Witness in Season 4 where a

backup, long dormant backup of the
Doctor is brought back, uh, online in

an alien, uh, museum, and the Doctor
has to correct the record about a war

between two species that, caught up in.

And, uh, he, he, like, tells them what's
wrong with their recreations, and then

at the very end of the episode, it
kinda pulls out, and what the whole

thing we were watching about the Doctor
is itself a historical record where

we learn that the Doctor finally left
that, uh, that future, um, planet in a

single-person craft bound for the Alpha
Quadrant because he wants to return home.

And this leads often… Whenever
the Doctor comes up in canon, the

question has to be asked, is this the
Living Witness Doctor who has finally

made it back to the Alpha Quadrant,
or is this the original Doctor that

made it back to Earth on Voyager?

Because we never did un- uh, learn what
happened to that Living Witness Doctor.

Uh, pessimist that I'm, am, I'm sure
he was just sucked into a, a, a warp

tube of some kind and never seen again.

Rob: Star Trek's about hope, Kevin.

It's about hope.

Kevin: Uh, Phlox is our
last chief medical officer

Rob: I, uh, I watched a Enterprise
episode to get my, uh, head

around Phlox as a character.

I love, uh, uh, John
Billingsley as an actor.

Um, but, uh, yes, I wanted to know more
about Phlox, so I watched, uh, one of

his, uh, centric episodes from season one.

I watched Dear Doctor.

Kevin: Yay.

Oh, that's a good one, isn't

Rob: It's such a good episode.

Like, I genuinely was watching
Enterprise and went, "This is great!"

Kevin: It is an early highlight, uh, when
Enterprise was still finding its legs,

there were some strong episodes that were
very kind of arc and lore and, and large

storyline connected, but this I feel
like is maybe the first standalone-ish

episode of Enterprise that really stood
on its own as a, a solid hour of TV

Rob: And

Kevin: recommend watching

Rob: it has, um, you know, it
doesn't have career stuff as such,

but it definitely has, um, it
has a beginning, middle, and end.

Where we are at the start with
Phlox and where we are at the end.

Him walking into his daily routine
into his lab feeding, you know, the

species, and then h- where he is
at the end where he goes good night

and steps out to live his life.

Um, incredible arc. Scott Bakula
is amazing in this episode.

Him and Billingsley are incredible.

That's, the sequence at the end
where they're going, the doctor

goes, "I can't change evolution.

We can't step in the way of that."
And, and when he realizes that Archer

goes, "I thought about it a lot, but
I can't be that person, and I, I'm

going with the d-" And then Billing-
And then the doctor talking about it

to his pen pal going, "I'm so glad I
did because then I could trust this,

this, this, this man with what I have."

Inc- Great stuff.

I'm there going … it, it felt
like a M*A*S*H episode because

of that whole narration thing.

M*A*S*H used to do it all the
time, Dear Dad, where Hawkeye

would write back to his dad.

So this one is Dear
Doctor, that whole thing.

It felt like a M*A*S*H episode of I
will talk about how my experiences

is on the Enterprise, I'm sure.

Um, it was beautifully done.

Kevin: I love Phlox as a character.

I love him in this episode.

I, I love him basically any time
they give him anything to do.

He is awesome.

He's a great comic foil, but also
just this premise that he is here

as part of the Interspecies Medical
Exchange program, that he is not

exactly a member of Starfleet.

He is here by choice, kind of
unofficially, you get the sense

that at any moment, if he did not
enjoy this, he could just leave.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: And yet, every chance he gets,
every time you might wonder is his

dedication to this job, this role, this
ship faltering, no, he doubles down.

At the start of season three when we
have the, the Earth attacked by the

sphere and the s- they, the Enterprise
is going off into the Delphic Expanse

to track down the Xindi and, and save
Earth, there is this moment given of

like, "N- no, no one has to do this.
This is your chance to opt out."

And the, the conversation is had with
Phlox, "Hey, this is not Interspecies

Medical Exchange stuff. Y- you would be
perfectly within your rights to leave."

And he's like, "No, you're gonna need
me more than ever. I am there." And

that, that feeling of someone opting
in again and again and being there

more than anyone else in, in the crew,
by choice is, um, it's very likable.

A- and, uh, yeah, I, I
really enjoy Phlox a lot.

The fact that he is such an alien,
and, and we get hints of l- you know,

they have, they have multiple spouses,
and they are parts of webs of multiple

spouses with multiple spouses, and
they have this web of relationships

around them, and that is normal.

You, you get…

There are little teases throughout the
series of their, these very alien things

about Phlox are perfectly normal to him.

But we're never gonna go to
Denobula and have episode that

demystifies the Denobulans.

The fact that he's as mysterious is
the point of the character, and that

is very, um, intriguing as well.

Uh, I feel like I have
a grasp on is he happy?

What makes him happy?

What is his motivation?

It's never quite clear because it's
always just a little off-kilter, a little

alien, a little left to the imagination,
and I really enjoy that about Phlox.

Rob: Yeah.

I mean, it's- he's a funny character,
but he's not played as a, a comic role.

Um, he's played beautifully with a,
you know, there's ex- eccentricities

about him, quirkiness about
him, but it's never heightened.

Like, there's a sense with Neelix, Neelix
is played up for the gags, and the, and

persona of Neelix is quite showman-like.

But with, with Phlox, he's
like, he's, he's quite reserved.

He takes those moments, and the
awkwardness and the quirkiness comes

quite naturally, but it's never played up.

Kevin: That's right.

He is a very comic actor who is naturally
funny, and so they rarely felt like

they needed to write comedy for him.

It was more that playing it straight would
allow his natural comedy to shine through.

There is one episode in the or-
in the first season, "Two Days

and Two Nights," where they…

I think it's Risa.

They go to Risa on holiday and
everyone's doing different things.

Phlox goes into hibernation and has to be
woken up for a medical emergency, and his,

his stupor as he, he, like, faceplants
into the deck and doesn't understand who

people are or what his tools are, and he's
just, like, is drunkenly bumbling around

sickbay, is overtly comic and hilarious.

He pulls it off fully.

But they don't really have to go
there that often with that character.

It's more his natural charm has got
a, just a barb of comedy about it.

Rob: There's a beautiful line when
they're watching a movie and, and he goes,

"Yeah, we used to have that, but then
we realized our real lives were far more

interesting." Really beautiful moment.

Um, uh, and I love the fact that his, his
medical facilities is like a menagerie.

It's not like… And then we've had
no other medical officer like that.

So he is, he is an alien on, you
know, a Federation ship, but, and

he is also bringing these other
species and learning from them.

Kevin: The way practices medicine
is an alien brand of medicine.

Yeah, it it is not, uh, Starfleet normal.

Rob: And, um, um, and again, because
it's the early days of translation,

so learning the languages through
conversation, um, was wonderful as well.

So his mentorship, mentoring
there is, is, is wonderful.

Kevin: Mm-hmm.

Well, there you go.

I, I, uh, I struggle to pick a favorite.

I think I would always have to go back to
McCoy just as the original, uh, blueprint

and, uh, and the, um, the formative
influence of the Southern gentleman on

my, uh, my growth as a, as a person.

But, um, just running through them
today, I think I had the fondest feelings

for Phlox, which is quite a, quite a
discovery to make for myself as a Star

Trek fan, where Enterprise is off- rarely
at the top of any list, and that, that,

that maybe it might be the top of the
list of chief medical officers, uh, is,

is a, is a fine thing to learn today.

Rob: I was, I was really grateful
for this week to watch an Enterprise

episode and genuinely love it,
and genuinely… Yeah, and not be

there going cringing at any moment.

Every cast member did great.

The setup was great.

Um, the moral dilemma at the end
was powerfully done and not shirked.

The great thing about l- you know,
the, the Menk and them learning

and adapting really quickly.

Um, top quality actors doing top
quality stuff, and I, I got my faith

back in, in Bacula, which I'm happy

Kevin: That's great.

Faith of the heart, you might say.

Rob: Um, but yeah, I'd probably, I'd
prob- I was introduced to McCoy, um,

and I've got a soft spot for Bashir
just because it's my show, but I think,

yeah, I think mine is, uh, Picardo
as, um, the Doctor from, uh, Voyager.

I just love the actor and I love what
he did with his character, and I was

Kevin: Can't go wrong.

Uh, and yeah, the Doctor is fun because
I think they let that character be

wrong and unreasonable more than
anyone else as a, regular cast member.

And that, in a, in a show that is,
like, built on ultra professional,

ultra capable people, to have the,
the wild-eyed maniac who's speaking

nonsense, uh, as if it's truth is, is
a fun disruptive element to be able

to have in the show week after week.

Rob: I did love the disruption
that he would bring.

So he was, he was not of them.

And so when they were behaving as
Federation people were, he was the

breath of fresh air that could look on
the outside of and go, "No, that's not

it," or be curt, be short, be rude.

Um, but because Robert Picardo is so damn
charismatic, you don't get offended by it.

You are you are drawn to him even more.

Kevin: You could imagine dozens
of actors not being able to play

that character sympathetically
as written in The Caretaker, and

yet somehow he, he makes it work.

It's like, "Oh, this guy's
unlikable. I like this!" a really

weird thing to be able to pull off.

Rob: It's a, it's a special skill.

Kevin: Yeah.

All right.

Well, that was, that was, uh,
a fun trip down memory lane.

I love it when we find a big lens like
that to look at the entire franchise.

Rob: That was so much fun.

And then thank you for, for offering it
up so I got to watch some episodes of,

um, Star Trek that I wouldn't normally
go to and discover some, some gems.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, uh, on to the next one.

We're, uh, we're in the, uh,
dying embers of this season.

Just a few more episodes

Rob: It's only j- it's
only just started, Kevin.

How can it be near the end?

Kevin: I know.

Uh, well, on to the next one, and,
uh, until next week, Rob, please state

the nature of the medical emergency.

Rob: See you around the galaxy.