Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome to Subspace Radio.

We are back talking about
the latest episode of Star

Trek out there in the cosmos.

We are of course talking about
Strange New Worlds, season 4, episode

4, and we couldn't do it without
my wonderful co-host Kevin Yank.

How are you?

Kevin: Good.

Uh, I am looking forward to discussing
A Case of Chiaroscuro with you, as I

hope I have pronounced that correctly.

Rob: Well, yes, the French is strong in,
uh, in, in your presence, definitely.

Kevin: This is how you teach a
generation of nerds a new word.

You put it in a Star Trek episode title.

Rob: It's the, it's the best way to
get them to learn outside of the little

boxes that we have set up for ourselves.

Kevin: I didn't know what it meant, had
never heard of it, even though I've played

over 100 hours of Clair Obscur: Expedition
33, the, uh, award-winning video game

of recent years, that, uh, that is the,
the, uh, source of this English word.

Clair obscur means brightness and
darkness, and if you squish those

together, you get chiaroscuro, which
is the reference to black and white in

here, and I think it is that, that film
technique of, of, uh, deep pools of black

and bright popping highlights of white
that, uh, that distinguish the noir genre.

Rob: Which is particularly popular
within the film nerd world.

We love a good, uh, film noir.

And it has been asked for for some time.

As soon as Strange New Worlds set
themselves up as the genre-hopping,

uh, you know, uh, adventure of
the week, people are going, "When

are they gonna do film noir?"

And have they done it or what?

Kevin: Yeah.

"A Space Adventure Hour" last season
was kind of a tease with La'an as the

gumshoe, and there was a, you know,
there was the same sort of uh, foreboding

string, um, score to it, but it was
a bit more of a spoof of the noir,

whereas I feel like they were trying to
play it a bit more straight this week.

Rob: The- this episode was played,
as they say, with a straight bat.

Uh, after the, after the, the humorous
adventures, and I put that in inverted

commas, of last week, this is definitely,
definitely down the straight line

of going this is serious Star Trek.

Um, and the silly, you know, the
change of costumes and clothes is there

to enhance the story and especially
the characters within this scene.

It's not there to sort of, like
be… It's not style over substance.

It's the style used to enhance
the the substance, which

was, which I found fantastic.

Kevin: I, I was a lot more mixed on
this episode on first viewing, and

having w- watched most of it again
a second time, I am enjoying it

a lot more the second time around
because I know what it is going for.

I know what it is meant to be.

And I think that must be a, a
particular difficulty when you're

this close, like, uh, the makers of
a show like this, when you're this

close to a genre piece like this.

How do you know if it's working
or not when you've been staring

at the thing for months?

Because for me, this episode did not work
on first viewing because the genre, the,

the visual presentation, the stylized
presentation was so thick, I was not sure

whether to take it at its face, whether
to take it literally, or to second-guess

everything that was happening.

The, the, the, um, I don't know, the
Vaseline on the lens was so thick with

this one that I was kind of squinting
through most of it going, "How much

of this is actually happening, and
how much of this is a manifestation

of their imaginations? I- is a,
is a hallucination of some kind?"

Some of the things like Una being
a complete duplicate for this

rebel leader were like, they are
kind of in genre, but they are not

necessarily in Star Trek genre.

And I was like, is that is that meant
to be real or not?" I don't know.

I was, for m- for 90% of this episode,
I was waiting for the scales to fall

from their eyes and for them to see
what was really going on all along.

But we were supposed to take it literally
and to, to, to play along with the game.

And knowing that going in a second
time, it is much more enjoyable.

Rob: Yeah, that's the challenge
of doing so many big swings

with genre from week to week.

It is that case of you need to establish,
you know, your rules very quickly.

You need to establish it f-
so the audience can keep up.

It's like in, you know, if we're
gonna use an impro fr- uh, phrase,

if you're doing a short form game,
you need to set up the rules of the

game before you play it so that the
audience get the gag when you play it.

If you just go straight into the game
and the audience don't know what th-

the rules are, they c- they, they're
left one… they have to catch up.

Kevin: You're exactly right.

That is exactly what it felt like.

I was learning the rules of
this game right up until the

very end of it being played.

And, as a result, I was at
sea for most of this episode.

The-- I also have never seen Casablanca,
so I had no idea what was going on with

the, uh, the, singing and the, the,
the thumping of the, uh, of the bar.

Um, all of that I was like, "Well,
that was weird. I guess we'll

learn what that was about later."

Nope, that was it.

It was a reference to a
movie I've never seen.

Rob: Well, yeah.

And, and you wouldn't say, I mean,
I wouldn't say Casablanca is a film

noir as such, but it, um, but he,
they took a lot of beats from film,

uh, from, from Casablanca and,

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, Hun- Humphrey Bogart
just oozes noir even when he is in a

political, uh, uh, war film, almost.

Rob: Yeah, pretty much.

It pretty much is a, you know, a romantic
war, you know, uh, adventure really.

Um, but no, I, I kind of, I kind of
embraced it straight away and went

with it at face value as what they
were going for, going, "Yep, she

looks exactly like this person. Yep."

Uh, and so this focus for me
was it's all about, uh, Una.

It's all about her, what
her role is as a leader.

What would she look like
as a person in charge?

How would she handle these situations?

Um, and learning about this
character, this person that

she is mistaken for, Nanette.

Kevin: Navette?

Rob: Yes, and wh- is she, is
she a c- uh, a, a collaborator?

Is she the leader of the resistance?

Kevin: Those early moments where
she thinks she is meant to be a

collaborator, and so she's doing her
best collaborator when she's sitting

opposite the table of one of her own
lieutenants who trying to pass the test.

And so she's, like, feigning panic,
but then every time she leans in

to speak privately to Una, the
panic falls away, and she's like,

"You know we're in on this, right?"

And all of that, was so beautifully
acted that you cannot… You don't know

what is going on on first viewing, and
on second viewing, it has the delicious

double meaning that you can see directly.

Uh, so some stuff worked
really great in this episode.

It was just the legibility of it all,
and, and when so much exposition is

coming from M'Benga, in some cases,
uh, the whispering didn't help as well.

Rob: Yes.

And, um, he needed a better fitting hat

Kevin: Yeah, it was, It was
way up there, wasn't it?

Rob: It was way up on his head, like,
uh, almost at ridiculous proportions.

Um, but yeah, I like how they
embraced the style of it.

I like how they did their
Star Trek justification of

why it was black and white.

Very Star Treky at the start of going,
"well, it's because of this, this,

this." You're going, "Yeah, whatever."

Um, and then that… But that, was
actually good because that justification

created a beautiful moment at the end
when she's coming out of the black and

white and into, uh, color again with
her reflection, Una looking at that.

I'm going, "That's some clever stuff
They've done that in uh, in a l- many,

many films, mos- wr- most recently in
the tele movie, uh, Werewolf By Night.

They do great stuff shot in black
and white and how they bring the

color into it and what that means.

I love that type of clever
use of the technique and of

the genre and the gimmick.

Kevin: I enjoyed some of our Star Trek
visual effects of, like, screens and

interfaces and force fields and holograms
and things all being translated into

monochrome, and uh, just watching
a force field come down in black

and white was kind of mind-blowing.

I felt like it was, you know, it
was both futuristic and old-timey

at the same time in a way that I
couldn't quite wrap my head around.

But it was, it was a lot of fun.

Rob: There's a great, yeah, great
shot at the end with the spaceships

leaving the atmosphere, 'cause
then the force field was down.

it looked, you know, a little
bit, um, you know, Buck Rogers

or, um, Flash Gordon of the

Kevin: Yeah, the, uh, the shuttle's
initial, um, kind of descent into

the atmosphere, likewise, there
was a shot from right behind

it that felt very '50s sci-fi.

And I was like, "Is that the same shuttle
as normal, or have they replaced it with

a, with funny-looking toy shuttle?" But
no, it was just the way they chose to,

you know, which, which black and white
filter they chose to put that emphasized

the, the subtle color differences of
the, shuttle hull that made it look a

lot more stripey than it normally does.

And, uh, yeah, worked really well.

The as they dip below the clouds and you
saw the zeppelins and the, the trains

on, on bridges and, and all of the mist
and spotlights, it was really cool,

that sort of techno noir aesthetic.

Rob: Yeah, the, uh, the use of
zeppelins, uh, just, just got my

nerd, uh, excitement levels peaking.

They, they use zeppelins in the uh,
Batman animated series from the '90s.

Kevin: I, I don't know whether to
declare this episode a success or not.

I will say, as I was watching
it, I actively disliked it.

I was like, are doing your
own thing at my expense.

I can't understand what you're going for.

This is, uh, ticking me off."

And, but now as, as I break it down with
you and as I watch, consider it on second

viewing, it's like, it's, it, I I now
like it quite a bit, and I, I don't know

whether to judge it on first appearance
or on ultimate, uh, lasting impression.

It's, uh, a divisive one in my own mind.

Rob: Yeah, I, I loved how serious it was.

I definitely enjoy, um, you know, the, the
silly episodes have kind of let Strange

New Worlds down for me, at least recently.

And so to have them go back to what I
liked about season one, there were some

great hard-hitting, you know, straight,
straight bat sci-fi classic, um, Star

Trek episodes, and this felt for me,
felt like that as well, like it was

dealing with occupation, which is, you
know, in the '60s era of Star Trek, m-

modern history, recent history for them
was World War II, so they were doing

a lot with the repercussions after
the na- you know, the Nazis invaded

Europe and all that type of stuff.

And so playing that here, it harkened back
to that classical, uh, Star Trek style.

Kevin: Not everyone got the note
on the, uh, tone of this episode.

I felt like Scotty and Ortegas were
in a completely… They, were still in

last week's episode, uh, and they were
just, you know, s- still, still playing

Rob: They, they, they were still
themselves, like, because especially

Pike, uh, Anson Mount was very

Kevin: know.

I know.

He was like…

Rob: it.

Like, lot of him leaning up
against on his captain's chair.

" Kevin: I've always wanted to play,
uh, Noir, and I know this one's not

about me, but I'm gonna play it as
hard as anyone." But then other people

on the very same bridge were just
having a casual Friday, you know?

And, uh, it's it was, it was a little
uneven aboard the Enterprise, I felt.

Rob: Yeah.

I mean, especially like Chapel,
uh, again was underused but came

in for a crucial part at the end.

Uh, and Scotty, I'm sorry, Spock and, um,
La'an were very much in that same style.

It's all very much that B plot, but
the actors around them are going,

"Hey, we're just on Star Trek."

Kevin: I have no evidence for
it, but I want… My, in my head,

Spock knew that Chapel had, uh,
done that and was protecting her

in his skepticism with La'an.

He was to throw her off s- the scent
because he was doing it as a favor

to Chapel, and that this, this is
the beginning of the end for their,

uh, relationship, Spock and He,
he chose sides this episode in my

Rob: He did choose sides
and, but so did La'an.

La'an chose sides as well at the end,
which was, um, a powerful moment.

Um, so yeah, I absolutely,
uh, loved this episode.

I, I got into it, straight away.

I can see how, um, it could
challenge some people and I'm really

fa- I've been fascinated to hear
how how it frustrated you at the

point going, "What are you doing?

What are you?

Okay, fine.

Great.

Okay.

I'm three steps behind.

Fine.

And you're treating me like this?"

I could, I could see you having
that breakup with the episode.

Um, but yeah, for me personally,
the tone of it was great.

What it did for, uh, Una as a character,
great stuff for Uhura as well and

Kevin: fun to see Kor
again as a character.

Uh, I… You, you would've
seen Kor in Deep Space Nine.

I don't know if you ever saw his
original episode, "Errand of Mercy."

Rob: Um, is I think I did, that was, I

Kevin: the one the Organians

Rob: Yes, I think we did watch that one.

I do remember him.

Yeah, and he came back in, um, the
Klingon episode where they got the three

actors who were from the '60s series
to come back and meet up with Dax.

Yes

Kevin: I thought it, like it was,
it was tickling me to see Kor again.

He's not, like… This was a
different Kor, I felt like.

And I can kind of look through it
and go, "it's a younger Kor." It's

definitely a Kor before he got
his Fu Manchu mustache and beard.

If they had done that, it would've
helped create the connection more,

but I'm happy to accept that a Klingon
changes his facial hair now and then.

But, uh, yeah, comparing his
performance, uh, the performance of

Demor Barnes this week to John Colicos
from the 1960s Star Trek episode,

they are very different people.

I I would say J- John Colicos in, in
"Errand of Mercy" is very, um, Gowron.

The wide eyes, the speaking
like this, you know?

The, the, the kind of, um, I don't
know what I would call that affect,

but it, it It is kind of the foundation
of a certain kind of Klingon,

Kor this week definitely is not.

He is a, a, a different kind
of personality I felt like.

So I, I craved a bit more connection
to other portrayals of Kor.

Rob: I agree.

Yeah, it felt quite disconnected.

It just seemed he was Kor in name

Kevin: Yeah.

He was interesting for his, in his
own right, but if they had called

him a different name, I would've
gone, Cool, that's a Kor-like

Klingon, obsessed with his mind
scanner, loves occupying a planet.

It's just like Kor.

Uh, nice to meet another Klingon
like that." The fact that we were

to accept that it literally was
kor, I wanted a bit more of, uh, uh,

yeah, yeah, of a through line there.

Rob: Bit more Kor.

Kevin: Yeah.

But overall, like I I f- I feel
like, uh, a- apart from my initial

struggles that… I don't know,
maybe I just had low blood sugar and

was having trouble following along.

But, uh, I would say overall,
uh, glad to see, glad to see…

I want to see more of this.

Uh, this is a move in the right direction
after a couple of low weeks for me.

Rob: Definitely, definitely.

I do get the sense it's gonna be,
uh, not so, uh, smooth sailing.

We're gonna have choppy waters
when it comes to, uh, tone of

episodes from week to week.

But, um, I was very happy with this.

I, I, I, I adored, uh, the stone-faced
seriousness that every scene played out.

Kevin: Yeah, me too.

All right, well, let's talk
about other occupations in Star

Rob: Yes.

As always, what we do here is we look at
a, a, a deeper issue that is connected

to the episode we have just watched,
and we have landed on occupations.

And so if there's anyone here who's
regularly been listening in, I

think they know where I'm going.

Kevin: Yes, indeed.

I can't wait to see what
angle you take on it.

But, there, uh, I, uh, I wanna talk more
about "Errand of Mercy," uh, original

series, season one, episode 27, so right
at the end of, uh, that first season.

Um, "Errand of Mercy," set on the
planet Organia, where, uh, Kirk and

Spock and the Enterprise are sent,
uh, at the declaration of war with

the Klingons, they are sent to secure
a planet in neutral space with a

strategic advantage to its location.

Uh, and Kirk and Spock beam down
and try to open diplomatic relations

with the locals, who live in a castle
and all wear Ren Faire outfits.

Rob: That's right.

I th- I swear we've talked about it
or I've wa- I did watch this episode

for previous one, so, so it's good
to bring it uh, bring it back.

Kevin: It's a classic.

Rob: It's the great, uh, great thing
of sort of like what they have around.

Let's write a story and let's
see, we've got a castle, we've got

Kevin: We've got some costumes, yeah

Rob: We've got it in the
Paramount lot, let's use it, okay?

Kevin: Something that makes me laugh
every time is it is, it is a castle.

It is literally meant to look and
feel like a castle, but of course

it's Star Trek, so all the doors
open and close automatically with

no visible mechanism or assistance.

And commented on.

It's just like a castle
with automatic doors.

Rob: Oh, we're a future castle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're, we, uh,

Kevin: There are signs of technology,
like the Organians are not phased by

the Federation and their phasers and
their communicators, and w- eventually

when the Klingons show up and, uh, and
occupy the, the planet, they are u-

unfazed by, you know, people beaming in.

I think, yeah, Spock and Kirk beam in
at the start and locals just walk by

with their donkeys and, and wheelbarrows
and Spock goes, "Uh, you think they

would have… they, they act as if
they see people beam in every day."

Uh, so yeah, it is a strange kind of
what is going on here from the start.

And what is going on is that this is
a planet effectively of Qs, that these

are omnipotent beings who have just
built a castle for visitors and adopt

the appearance of humanoids for, uh, the
convenience of, of conversation with,

uh, those primitive humans and Klingons.

I think the biggest fun of this episode
is that when the Klingons show up,

the Organians try to keep the peace by
putting Kirk and Spock in local garb.

They dress them up and give them false
identities so that and Spock can, um, pose

as locals, much as our, our, uh, wayward
shuttle crew do in this week's episode.

Kirk plays Barona, a local citizen,
and, uh, Kor clocks him right away.

He's like, "You're a wolf among the
sheep. Yeah, you, you don't have

that stupid smile on your face that
everyone on this entire planet has.

You seem like someone I can deal with."

And it is… This is one of those
early examples of the adversaries,

the Klingons, you meet someone that
you could be friends with under other

circumstances in- your opponent captain.

And like Kor, is like, "You know
what? I'm, I'm, here to destroy

you and everything that you stand
for, but you seem like a stand-up

guy." That is the attitude.

Rob: That- this is the, episode
where it's all about they're

just as bad as each other, isn't?

Sort of the, yeah, yeah, "We're
trying to liberate you, but you're

using the same violence as these
in- occupiers are," type of thing.

Kevin: Yeah that is the lesson of the
week for, for Star Trek is l- like

Kirk and Spock being down and go,
"You have to side with the Federation.

We are not war mad like the Klingons."
And then as soon as the Organians

try to stop them from, stop Kirk
and Spock from blowing stuff up

and destroying the Klingons, uh,
Kirk is like, "You can't stop us.

You, you have no right.

We're, we have to, you have to
let us defend you with violence."

And, uh, yeah, at the end, Kirk
admits he is feeling embarrassed

by his showing on the planet below.

It's a nice turn as well.

I think they let Kirk be ugly.

They let Kirk be wrong.

They be unevolved in a way that
Star Trek, modern Star Trek rarely

allows its characters to be.

And then at the end of the episode,
he reflects on it and goes, "Uh, I was

a very poor example, uh, of Starfleet
and the Federation this week. Spock,

I don't know why you put up with me."
And, and has to admit he was as, uh,

bloodthirsty as, as his captain as well.

Rob: It's very, um, Star Trek VI with, um,
the, the prejudice of Kirk built up there

and moment at the, at that moment at the
end where he goes, you know, "A lot of

people are afraid of change," and talking

Kevin: Yeah.

This is such early Klingon stuff, first
season of the original series, that they

are still figuring out what Klingons
are, and I feel I did not expect how

modern Kor in particular would seem to
my eyes as a longtime Star Trek fan.

Like, I could see Gowron in Kor.

I could see Martok in Kor.

I could see these, these, like, seeds
of the honor-bound, uh, warrior Klingon

who prides himself on how effectively he
wages war in service of his government.

Like, all of that is here.

The, the kind of grand bearing of,
of, "I am, I'm a Shakespearean villain

in warrior attire," is all here, uh,
right here in Season 1 of TOS, and I

I have not given Star Trek credit for
getting the Klingons so right so early.

This might be the first
time they did that.

There were other appearances of the
Klingons in the first season, weren't

as fully formed, but this one nails it.

This is the first appearance of
the future Klingons, I feel like.

Rob: Yeah, I do remember them being
particularly strong in this and, uh,

their occupation of, you know, the
planet of, uh, of, of the modern castles.

We could see we could see the, the
s- the Klingons of 60 years' time.

Kevin: Yeah.

Before Kor knows that Captain Kirk is
Captain Kirk, when he's still treating

him as Barona, he kind of appoints him
as his local overseer in the same that

Nevette was in, uh, this week's episode,
that she is one of the locals who h- has,

has promise, uh, as a collaborator and
local leader, and he treats him that way.

He, he t- goes, "Now let me, let me show
you what your duties are going to be as

my local contact," and all, all of that.

Like, it's fairly short-lived.

Kirk and Spock are
unmasked pretty quickly.

uh, but it lasts for a bit there and
it, it feels familiar, uh, this week.

The other thing that is present here that
I think goes away, that we have not seen

again, is there is a hint that um, Klingon
culture is very surveillance-driven.

The Klingons, when they, once they occupy
the place, they put cameras everywhere.

And so there is surveillance and
there is a moment where Kor, uh,

and Kirk are talking one-on-one, and
Kirk's, like, got Kor at gunpoint.

And Kor is like, uh, "You know, we
Klingons believe in, in transparency

through surveillance, and e- that applies
to everyone, even a very high-ranking

Klingon like myself, Captain. You'll
notice the camera on the wall, Captain."

And then all the guards run in.

And, that little element of, like,
Klingons surveil everyone would've been

interesting to carry forward, but I
think was just here for this one episode.

Rob: Yeah, it was never
really carried on with.

I did like, in this episode, th-
that even ever so briefly, but that

representation of what an occupied
planet under Klingon rule would look

Kevin: Yeah, you Klingons in, in,
in terrible blackface, uh, sitting

at a cafe with locals and they're
harassing the locals and yeah,

all, all of that is, is there.

Um, they did a lot with a little
on this backlot in the '60s.

Rob: Do what they can with what they
had and that's what, you know, that's

what we love about it is that, you know,
look around at what we have, tie it all

together, put a bit of sticky tape on
it and, uh, and, turn it into a ship.

Kevin: Of course, this episode ends with
the Organians enforcing peace through

their, their superpowers and, and, um,
that kind of echoes on into canon a bit.

Like, from that point forward, Klingons
and, and the Federation are at cold war

at most, that their, their war is never
allowed to come to blows ever again.

And that, that feels like a… Like,
that, that is a bold arm to tie behind

your back for your main villain at the
end of your first season of your TV is

like, "And by the way, we can never fire
weapons at each other ever again." It's

very, very interesting in hindsight to
think of of um, that choice to make here.

Uh, the line from the leader of the
Organians, "In the future, you and the

Klingons will become fast friends. You
will work together," also establishes

what would go on to be the Klingons as
we know them in The Next Generation.

Like, from that point forward,
we knew they were gonna be allies

eventually, and we were kind of
just bridging until that day.

And so I respect the Next Generation
for kind of going, "Okay, well, we know

where that is going. Let's jump straight
there and see what that is like."

Um, this episode did so much for the
Klingons, for canon, for, for the shape

of Star Trek in general in one little
episode in the original series, I'd say.

It is, is beyond a classic.

It is foundational.

Rob: Very much so.

Very much so.

And yeah, I think it's made
the show better because of it.

That Cold War almost element of
the Federation and the Klingons has

strengthened the show so much more because
since we've gone back with flashbacks

wi- with Discovery and with elements
here of Strange New Worlds, those type of

episodes of showing, you know, just how
outmatched the Klingon, the, the humans

are to the Klingons, but how bloodthirsty
and all that type of thing, it doesn't

feel like the, what Star Trek is.

It seems like it's a
different type of show.

Whereas this is you know,
they have to w- think clever.

They have to think they have to think
more smartly about how they use these

relationships and how they develop them,
and that's why we get this, you know, as

you say, foundational episode has, has
really shaped where Star Trek has gone for

60 years with our two le- lead species.

Kevin: We get the mind probe here as well.

Like, the fact that Kor is a big
fan of his mind probe, uh, is, is

established here and then paid off
in A Case of Chiaroscuro this week,

and, and that was fun to actually
see the mind probe in operation.

Something that I did not realize
until I revisited this episode is

the mind probe is entirely spoken
about and it all happens off screen.

We never see the mind probe.

But in my young imagination,
I had imagined it all.

Uh, I think it might be a little, uh, of
bleed from uh Dagger of the Mind in which

there is the, the, uh, the, the big knob
that you can change its settings and, and

figure out how much, uh, mental health
it imparts into the uh, the patient.

But, um, but, uh, a little bit of
this and a little bit of that, and

I was convinced we had seen the
Klingon mind probe that, that episode.

We never did, and we got to see it the,
i- in the flashing lights with Uhura.

Uh, I don't know.

How did you feel about that
mind probe scene with Uhura?

Rob: Um, I liked the battle that
Uhura was in, and the struggle and

the fight for her to see… You know,
because we don't have her in danger,

but we, because we know where she ends
up, but we like to see her struggle.

We like to see her, you know, overcome
challenges, and this was a, a, a,

yeah, a doozy, a big one to go through.

Mind torture is, uh, is, is, was
powerful for, for, for me to see Uhura

Kevin: Yeah, I agree with all that.

it was a good character piece.

It was a nice, like, battle of wits
b- for the episode I, I liked the,

I liked the production design of it.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: But there was not a in the
script, there was not really room for

us to get a sense of Uhura's mind being
probed, of her, her defenses faltering,

of her starting to give herself away.

If that was supposed to be
there, I couldn't really see it.

It was more just every time the lights
flashed, Uhura grimaced, and then would go

back to lying and not being caught lying.

So I'm not sure, like, I think
I… The mind probe needed

just a little more consequence.

But, uh, I agree with you.

I enjoyed the scene for what it was.

Rob: Yeah, it was because the episode
was more f- you know, it was who,

whose story this was because we could
have gone into a, you know, a three

lights, four lights type of situation.

Kevin: It's funny though, in Errand
of Mercy, Spock is dragged off to the

mind probe and then they bring him back
and they say, "He's who he said he is.

He's a, a Vulcan merchant."
And Kor goes, "Really?

Did you turn it up enough?"
And his his lieutenant goes,

"I put it on setting four.

That's enough to break down any pretense."

And Kor goes, "All right. If the mind
probe says, the mind probe says."

So I, I have a feeling maybe
Kor got himself a bad mind probe

off of, uh, Alibaba something.

Maybe it doesn't actually work.

Rob: Future Temu.

The site seems legit.

We've got s- we've got enough?"
references down here, and the comments

don't seem to be auto-generated at all.

Kevin: No, not at all.

Anyway, that's Errand of Mercy.

uh, definitely worth, worth a watch
if you haven't seen it If you enjoyed

this episode of Strange New Worlds
and you haven't seen Errand of

Mercy lately, do yourself a favor.

Watch the, watch the other half.

Rob: I can agree.

I remember this one.

It is a doozy.

Kevin: Hmm.

Uh, uh, what, what sort of
occupation you got for me, Rob?

Rob: There's only one occupation
that I like the look of, and

that's a Bajoran occupation.

We're going to Deep Space
Nine, Season 5, Episode 8.

So this is just after the one we spoke
of last week with um, going to, to Risa.

Ew.

Kevin: Mm.

Rob: Um, we're going to we're going to
Things Past, directed by LeVar Burton.

Kevin: Amazing.

Rob: And

Kevin: you know what?

That, that gives me hope.

When a, when an episode is right next to
a bad one, it's more than likely to be a

good one because they spent all their time
on this one and the other one suffered.

Rob: So this one is we have,
um, Garak for some reason.

Um, Odo, Sisko, and Dax are coming back in
the runabout, um, coming back from Bajor.

There was some sort of conference
or presentation, um, uh,

discussing the occupation.

Uh, uh, and Garak is there to be a
representative of talking from that

point of view, and he is frustrated
that it was a very one-sided discussion.

There wasn't much talk about
the facts, about, you know, all

aspects of the occupation, not
just all the negative stuff.

Um, and Odo is, uh, heaped with praise
while he was there about being a hero.

Uh, " You may have worked
for the Cardassians, but your

only real master was justice."

Um, and Odo looks very uncomfortable
with all this type of stuff.

We then cut back to Deep Space Nine.

Worf's there, and the ship's coming
in, and the signals are very faint.

The life signals are faint.

They go back on, and
everyone's unconscious.

And so they bring them to the medical
bay and, uh, are hooked up by Bashir

to be looked after and monitored, and
we go into their minds, and all four

of our, our heroes have gone back in
time seven years, only seven years back

in time, so two years before Season
1 of, um, uh, Deep Space Nine to the

occupation, to the occupation of Bajor.

It is Terok Nor.

It's not Deep Space Nine.

Uh, the Promenade is, uh, is the top
level is where the Cardassians look down

with arms, uh, on the Bajorans below.

And three of our heroes, not Dax, have
become names that Odo remembers, and they

are the names of three, uh, suspected,
uh, terrorists who were executed, uh,

by, uh, G- under Gul Dukat's orders.

Kevin: A lot in Deep Space Nine is, is
our, our actors are, like, transported

into other characters for a week.

Uh, it happens this way and that way,
and I feel like it's one of their ways

of escaping the, the confines of the
space station that is Deep Space Nine

and, uh, uh, and mixing it up a bit.

Uh, and I, I'm not faulting it at all.

I love the creativity.

And, uh, from my memory, this is one of
the times it worked the best as well.

Rob: Yes.

So they, um, it's great guest star
performance as a, as a Cardassian from

Kurtwood Smith, the great Kurtwood
Smith, who people would know from,

uh, RoboCop as Clarence Boddicker.

Uh, but most recently people would
remember as Red from That '70s Show.

Incredible actor, love, and, uh,
Kurtwood Smith was of course the

number one villain in my favorite
film of all time, Dead Poets Society.

Kevin: Not Red from
Orange is the New Black.

That's a different Star Trek actor.

Rob: That's a different Star Trek actor.

Exactly.

Um, uh, we love you Kate Mulgrew.

So, uh, the more and more we go along,
we see that the chief of security isn't

Odo, who it probably should have been.

It's the previous, uh, chief of security.

Um, Dax is taken away and then, uh, is
brought close to Gul Dukat who is, you

know, attracted to this, uh, young female
as he is a- to all young females that

have come onto his, uh, space station.

Um, and it's about solving this mystery
of how we can stop these three men from

being executed for, uh, an assassination
attempt that is going to be coming up.

Um, uh, Odo tries everything desperately
to get the right information out there.

We find out that a Cardassian isn't
actually a Cardassian, it's a Changeling.

Um, and at the crucial moment, we find
out that Odo needs to admit that he

was the security chief at that time.

He was the, the, the person responsible
for these Bajorans being executed.

He was the one who, um, found out
later that it was all circumstantial

evidence and they weren't responsible,
and he has been carrying that with

him for seven years, that guilt.

And when that reveal, everyone wakes
up, um, and he has to deal with the

repercussions because the first person to
come and see him after this is revealed

is Kira, who we haven't seen all episode.

But she comes in and goes, "You know,
I don't know how I feel about you."

And we have that all the time through
the seven years of going, they

get close then something happens.

They get close, they get something happen.

Um, and at this point he's a solid,
so he is not… He's been taken away.

He's been disconnected from the great,
the great link and there's a, there's an

anomaly in space and the justification of
why this happened is very, very flimsy.

But, uh, the main point is
it's Odo confronting a failure

from his past, and Kira is not
sure whether she can trust him.

Uh, and says, "Just promise me
that you never did anything like

that. You never made a mistake like
that again." And Odo goes, "I, I

can't. I, I don't know anymore."

Um, so I really like this episode.

I love it when they go back to the past
and how, you know, just seven years ago.

So this is during the time
of, you know, Next Generation.

is at the height of Picard and all
that going through, and during this

time there was some horrible stuff
going on in the universe, and I

love the fact that it shows that.

And the, you know, the Federation
only comes in after the,

um, the occupation is over.

So to see that within just seven
years there was some horrible stuff

happening to these people and how they
were treated as second-class citizens

and how that occupation plays out.

I always love those, uh, episodes of
Deep Space Nine to really broaden the

universe as opposed to just-- And that's
what they could do over seven years.

We found out so much
more about the culture.

Kevin: I love that they found
this opportunity to, to do this

uh, they do it in, in two or
three other episodes as well.

They kinda dip into the past
in one way or the other.

I'm thinking of Wrongs Darker Than
Death or Night is a, is another

occupation era story where Kira
gets to find out the truth about Her

mother's relationship with Dukat.

Um, yeah, and

Rob: Duet's always a good, as well,
and how that's talked about not shown.

So yeah.

Kevin: Establishing the series
after the occupation creates this,

this shadow over the entire series.

And in some ways it's like,
how could they not go back and,

and tell some of those stories?

Uh, that would have been
too tempting to resist.

But at the same time, I'm sure
it was probably not part of

the founding idea for the show.

The idea would be, like,
post-occupation, how interesting of

a sandbox that would be to play in.

But going back and seeing some of
the stories from the occupation I

think almost makes Deep Space Nine
prequel-proof in a franchise that

is, like obsessed with prequels.

If we had not told some of the stories
of the occupation and seen just how

ugly it could get and and gone as
dark as you can go on, on television,

there would have been this gap left,
and someone by now surely would have

pitched the, the occupation series where
it's the prequel to Deep Space Nine.

We see Kira and Shakaar in the
trenches, uh, week after week, and,

and, uh, they are taking down or, or
resisting the, the, the Cardassians.

And I feel like that would be such a
weaker way to approach this material,

whereas, like, dipping in, going, "Oh
my gosh, that was bleak. Let's never

do that again," makes it so much more
powerful for what, all the implied

stories that we don't get to see.

Rob: There's some horrifying images.

There's a horrifying image of like
when Odo's finally facing the fact that

he was there and responsible and he's
up on the Promenade and he's looking

across to the other side and you see the
Cardassians just shoot these three men

point-blank and they've got the phaser
spark and, you know, the squibs going

off of, of sparks, of flashes, not blood.

But it's, it, it's so cold.

It's so, uh, clinical.

It's very distressing.

Um, and that whole thing of victory is
written by the winners of that, um, how a

character or how a person reconciles how
they are perceived by the culture that's

won as opposed to the truth of what they
remember, um, is powerful, heady stuff

to be exploring in, um, i- in Star Trek.

But Deep Space Nine embraced this
stuff and having- when you've got a

talent like Rene Auberjonois, even
though he is covered in layers of

makeup, how he can emote through
his voice, through his body, through

his physicality to, um, to show that
horror, that, that disgust in himself.

Kevin: I do have to admit, watching
this, like, 24-hour period for

occupation era Odo and how he, he
barely came out of it able to hold,

hold, his head up the next day.

Uh, the fact that that was one day
and he was there day after day,

it makes me wonder what, uh, you
know, how did it not break him?

Because this almost
broke him, just one day.

Rob: It, it isn't until, you know,
because he was q- you know, he had

to keep to… He was such alone.

He was so alone.

But because of his time with, uh, the
Federation and with, you know, getting

closer and closer to Kira and working on
Deep Space Nine, he changes as a person

and he opens up more and he becomes,
you know, point as seven years, he has,

uh, a, a love relationship with Quark.

Um, and he he finally falls in love
and him and Kira have a very sad

ending, but he wouldn't have been
able to have that beforehand 'cause he

was so emotionally closed off 'cause
he was so protective and scared.

Uh, it's a wonderful evolution.

It's, um, it's, and it's a, it's
a great representation of just how

horrifying the occupation was for Bajor.

Kevin: Maybe you can correct my memory
here, but I have… I don't remember

ever getting to see Bajor, like
planet-side Bajor during the occupation.

I feel like every time we go to the
occupation, it's on Terok Nor, and

that's, that's of something I, I have
wondered what it would look like.

What would, uh, Cardassians roaming
the streets of Bajor look like

in the same way that we got with
the Klingons in Errand of Mercy?

Rob: I think there is an episode where
it's dealing with the resistance group

that, um, Kira is connected with,
I'm not sure if there's flashbacks

to, not the streets of Bajor, but
definitely like the the wilderness.

So they

Kevin: Yeah I have this vague sense of one
that took place in the in the foothills

and there was some uh, guerrilla warfare,
but I can't remember which one that was.

Rob: Yes.

I'll have to look that one up, but
I think, yeah, it was, um, yeah,

Kira in her, uh, in her resistance
fatigues, it was, uh, one of those

n- knitted vests that made her
look very guerrilla camp- commando.

Um, uh, but yeah, I can't remember
the episode offhand, but it was yeah,

it's, it, it was from that time, and
it was some guerrilla warfare stuff.

Kevin: Write in, dear listener.

Let us know what you thought of that
episode, if you know which one it is.

Rob: I would love to know
that one so I can rewatch it.

Kevin: Hmm.

Well, there you go.

Occupations.

Um, some some fun stories.

I'm, I'm surprised we, have not gone
to that well more often, uh, in a way.

I'm sure there you know, there was,
there's the random Voyager episode where

they happened upon the, an occupied or,
or a subjugated populace of one kind or

another, but, uh, definitely the, the
Klingons and the Cardassians were the most

occupying forces we ever got in Star Trek.

Rob: They did love a good occupation.

Um, and we, you know, the Borg like
to assimilate, not really occupy.

So, um, we, we love, we love seeing that
uh, that, that, that tribute, that tip

of the hat to '60s Star Trek by going,
"World War II was bad. Let's reflect on

that through science fiction and and,
uh, have a little taste of it here this

week with, uh, with Strange New Worlds."

Kevin: All right.

Well, as we, as we clear the, uh,
radiation field, our, our color

is returning to our faces, Rob.

Rob: And I think we've found a bit,
found out a bit more about ourselves,

and we've grown and developed so that
we've got deeper layers to ourselves and

everything isn't just black and white.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, I'm gonna go step into
the transporter, and I'm sure

nothing could possibly go wrong.

Rob: Nothing could possibly go wrong.

It's as if you've got your
hand manipulating what I say.

Kevin: Very good.

Uh, we'll talk next week, Rob.

Rob: I cannot wait.