Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello, and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It has been a minute, but I am still Kevin

Rob: And I'm still Rob

Kevin: And we are here returned
for Strange New Worlds season four,

episode one, "Valles Marineris."

Rob: Wonderful title referring
to a, a, a great valley in,

uh, on, on the surface of Mars?

Kevin: Mm, ei- either
that or a a tasty sauce

Rob: Mm. It does, it does have
that Italian fragrance to it.

Like, yeah, I think I had
that at Subway lu- yesterday

Kevin: Yes.

And it has been a pause, but we
are back for 10 straight weeks of

new Star Trek, a, a increasingly
rare commodity it seems, Rob.

Rob: We.

Are.

We have, we, we've, we've been here from
the beginning of the powerful, welcome

return of, uh, of, of, uh, Anson Mount's
crew a full-time basis, and now we are

in season four and the Star Trek world
is a very different world out there.

We are at the tail end of a very, um,
controversial, uh, very high-profile,

um, rebooted, not rebooted I guess, you
know, but, uh, new iteration of Star Trek.

Kevin: As we record this, um, San Diego
Comic-Con is happening and the, the Star

Trek 60th anniversary celebration is
happening and, and watching the stuff

come out of that, it is, it's a strange
duality of, "Yay, Star Trek, isn't it

amazing?" And also, "Everything we're
doing right now is already canceled."

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: So yeah, anyway, we
are going to, we're gonna

Rob: and we have no idea, and we have
no idea what happens with Star Trek

Kevin: Yeah, idea what comes next.

I, I have been preparing myself
for another fallow period of,

of, like, Star Trek beta canon.

I've spent some time getting
back into the comics.

I had fallen off of reading Star Trek
comics regularly, so I've got a few

years stacked up, and just getting back
into that and going, "Oh, yes, this,

this was my fandom for a decade of
just, like, there is no new Star Trek."

Star Trek on TV is a distant memory
that we wish would come back, but we

have little hopes of it ever doing so.

A- and so we make our own fun.

And, and the stories that got
told that way, uh, were, were

just as entertaining to me.

And, and yeah, dipping back into the
comics now, I'm having a great time.

Rob: S- you know, fandom not
only survives, we thrive.

When, uh, mainstream interpretations
of our product, uh, uh, disappear,

we know how to make it survive,
whether it be in the comic book,

the novelization, the audio drama,
as Doctor Who are very aware of.

So, um, yeah, this will be a time
where the fans hopefully can unite

and, uh, you know, create their own
versions of their favorite characters

and their favorite storylines and their
favorite universe to keep it going

while, uh, you know, Paramount Skydance
slowly dissolve into a ball of flames.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, the other thing I've been
doing is introducing, uh, some

new generation to some Star Trek.

Uh, there are a couple young boys in my
life that, uh, I get to see every now

and then, and what we've been doing when
we get together lately is, uh, watching

an e- episode of Star Trek or two.

We've, we've gone through all
of the original series movies.

Rob: Excellent.

Kevin: So what I, what I did
is I showed them just enough of

the original series TV show to
provide a grounding for the movies.

Rob: Like clips or full

Kevin: No, we watched a few, we
watched a couple of full episodes,

just so they could get an idea of
who these characters were, and just

that there's, the stuff that happens
in the movies mattered to them.

And then we've watched,

Rob: of the Naked Time, you
watch a lot of Naked Time.

Kevin: No, but we're about to.

Uh, yeah.

What I watched, what I chose is
"The Trouble with Tribbles" just

because it is so accessible.

And, uh, "Tomorrow Is Yesterday," which
is a strange they go back in time and, uh,

um, and there's Captain Christopher, the
Air Force pilot that they end up beaming

aboard, and they have to kind of undo this
slight, um, uh, tainting of the past, of

Earth's past that they do by accident and,
uh, before they come back to the future.

But it's, yeah, the introduction of
the, the slingshot effect and time

travel and, and that sort of stuff.

And the reason I chose that one is that
Captain Christopher in particular is the

outside person who comes in and goes, "Who
are all these people?" So in one episode,

he is taught, uh, as we are taught in
the audience, just what is this starship,

who is everyone, how does this all work?

And yeah, it works really well a- as an
underrated, I would say, episode of the

original series, uh, to, as a way in.

Rob: Well it isn't talked about a lot,
but that's a… And what a wonderful,

uh, uh, inroad for, for those young
gentlemen, and what a wonderful connection

with this week's episode of Star
Trek: Strange New Worlds, Kevin Yank.

Kevin: A time-travelly-wavelly one.

I was not expecting it, but,
uh, I was happy to get it.

Um, let's crack straight in we, uh,
take our branching paths through the

subspace and find ourselves talking about
bootstrap paradoxes or predestination

paradoxes, pick your poison.

Uh, let's first

Rob: memory.

Come on Memory Alpha.

Everyone calls it the bootstrap paradox.

What is this s- Alpha trying to gatekeep
that phrase and turn it into something

else with predestination paradox?

Come on Alpha.

And, but I've hear- I'm hearing
it being used by other Star Trek,

uh, YouTubers and stuff like that.

I'm going, "What the…
What's, what's happening here?"

Kevin: You gotta take your
steer from, uh, Memory Alpha.

It is the one true source of information

Rob: Yes.

In, in Memory Alpha trust

Kevin: we, and we thank them.

Uh, you think episode broadly, Rob?

Rob: Look, there was a lot riding on this.

We, you know, in our reviews of season
three, we were, uh, think, uh, you know,

deflated, a little bit disappointed with
what, uh, what w- came about, that seemed

to be very much a compromised season.

Uh, what with strikes and, uh, shifts
around with, uh, schedules and people's

availability, and just the whole process.

It didn't seem like, uh, especially,
you know, 'cause Strange New Worlds

is so, you know, dear to me, I just
adored it from, from, from the get-go.

It quite disheartening to watch.

So there was a lot riding on this,
and I, you know, just not holding my

cards close to my chest, I loved it.

I loved it.

It was a very much
return to form, I found.

Uh, there was a great spread
of, you know, time for, for m-

most of the, uh, characters.

It's… And bringing
back that joy and wonder.

It seemed to be bogged down a little
bit last season with negativity and

cynicism, and all that type of stuff.

There seemed to be a r- there's
an underlying arc that seems to be

coming up on certain characters,
and s- building blocks for where

we need to go after season five.

Um, but I, I had a great time.

The joy, the wonder, and some
hard-hitting, issues, what we do

with time and what, what is meant
to happen and what i- what should

be happening set up as well.

And that's what we like about, well, me
personally, about Strange New Worlds.

Some of episodes of season one
and two had those elements of

humor, uh, joy and hope, and also
a bit of a, a hard hit at the end.

Kevin: Yeah.

Th- this, uh, felt in the, in the
grandest tradition of Strange New

Worlds, a self-contained adventure that
could have stood alone as a m- as, as

a movie length special sort of thing.

And I, I had two overriding
reactions to this.

One is they found the fun again.

They remembered this show first
and foremost is meant to be fun.

And that opening galloping, uh, captain's
log, um, where he, he started by

saying, "We've, we've had 15 routine
missions in a row." And I was like,

"Oh, no, they're doing the jaded
captain thing." I was transported back

to start of Star Trek Beyond where,
where Captain Kirk is supposedly bored

of being captain of the Enterprise.

And with his very next line, um,
Pike dispels that by saying, "And

I think of all 15, this might be
my favorite part." And, uh, it was

like, yes, they know what this is.

These people are supposed
to enjoy their jobs!

Rob: Oh, and especially, you know,
bringing back that connection

of Pike's time is limited.

Um, Pike's time is, you know, is in,
you know, is not, is not ongoing.

He knows he's got a time limit.

And so also dealing with his, you
know, loss of Patel, he's going,

"Let's get the most out of this." So
it's six months of adventure and fun.

Kevin: It was deftly done that
they did not let go of anything

that happened in season three.

It's all there, it's all acknowledged,
but it's also six months later

and we're going in a different
direction with this show now.

Rob: Yeah.

And, you know, Pike just going, "Let's go
for a bit more of a ride. Sure we could

be picked up, but let's, uh, let's just
ride these horses a little bit longer."

Kevin: I said there were
two impressions I had.

One was, yes, it's fun again.

The second one is that this
episode is so stuffed with ideas.

16 minutes in is when we get the
credits, and already by then we've

had horses, we've had a Vulcan
cadet, we've had, uh, Scotty making

extra beeps on the, on the bridge.

We've had the s- the stellar squall.

Uh, w- We've

Rob: We've

Spock's reveal of his kinks.

Kevin: You came to see me
in my costume, didn't you?

Uh, we've, uh, we've had iridium lost,
and we've had a landing on what we are

to later learn is prehistoric Earth, uh,
and, and, and dinosaurs shaking trees.

All of that happens in the first
16 minutes, and then, uh, boom,

something's just grabbed the ship,
and there's this ship we've never

seen before with blue tendrils around
the Enterprise pulling it away.

And I was like, "Whoa, is there enough
here?" Uh, I, I, I thought sarcastically.

I was like, "They are, they are overdoing
it a little." But that, sign of health.

There have been times where Star Trek has
felt like it doesn't have enough ideas,

and they're holding them back because
they're, they're guarding them preciously.

In this one they were like, "No,
let's just dump a season's worth of

fun things that could happen into the
first 16 minutes of a show, and then

try and dig ourselves out from under
the pile of them for the rest of the

episode." And it was just, just so good.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah.

It, you know, to, to quote, uh, Bilbo-
to well, paraphrase Bilbo Baggins, it did

feel, Star Trek can feel at times like,
uh, butter spread over too much bread.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Rob: But there was definitely a
nice healthy infusion of ideas and

s- establishing the lore and the
routine and it was, it was, you know,

uh, it was a statement to everyone
going, "This is what we have got.

"We have got 16 episodes left, 10
this season. This is everything."

Everything is established up

Kevin: yeah, use it or

Rob: yeah, Pike's journey, Una's
journey, um, uh, uh, La'an's journey.

All these characters are
building towards something, and

this adventure is building up.

You know, is heading in
a direction that we know.

So touching back on Pike's position
within his mind, where he wants to go,

and the whole point of going, "You can
move forward with this," you know, "with

your, uh, promotion." And, um, we know
he gets promoted, but this is him going,

"I'm not ready yet" type of stuff.

I know I'm jumping around a bit.

You know, it's, it,
it's a great statement.

A lot in there, a lot to digest, you know,
and splitting it in the usual A story,

B story, which either one could have
been its own story without any of that.

That's, that's a good s-
for me, that's a good sign.

Kevin: Yeah, and we had the, like
the C story and the D story as well.

We had Ortegas and Scotty clashing,
and then we had our, our Vulcan, uh,

cadet, both of which are, were just a
soupçon of story there that is, is for,

for the rest of the season, I think.

Rob: Yes, and there was always, and,
and possibly the strongest reference to

Doctor Who that we've in the last two

Kevin: Yes, I didn't
wanna blow past it there.

What did you make of that?

Rob: Uh, look, if anybody else
said it, I'd roll my eyes.

be honest, I'm not, I'm not
particularly sure why this has happened.

It's been pushed the last couple of years.

Russell T. Davies has pushed it a lot.

The people at Star Trek have pushed
a lot w- since the 60th of Doctor

Who and now the 60th of Star Trek.

They had a panel last year at Comic-Con

Kevin: I I'm reading between the
lines, but there have s- been some,

um, some s- senior producers of Star
Trek say that the season finale of

this Season 4 was originally intended
to be a crossover with another show

that shall be r- shall re- remain
nameless, and I think that's exactly

what they were playing towards here.

Uh, so what we see is the, the
vestiges of something that will not

be because that fell apart, uh, and,
and they are doing something entirely

different with the season finale this
year that I am equally excited about.

Rob: Yeah.

It's like, it- that both franchises
are not in a healthy place at the

moment especially, but I think
Doctor Who was canceled far quicker

than they expected it to be.

And so yeah, things
have fallen apart there.

But it's the strongest,
clearest reference they made.

And if, as I was saying, if it was
anyone else other than Pelia making

the reference, I would've gone, "Ugh."

But there is a, there is an air of
the Gallifreyan about Pelia and,

and her race, would be like, she
would be an incredible Doctor.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

I, I also enjoyed the line later
in the episode, uh, or right at the

end where they were talking about,
uh… Oh, was it right at the end?

They, they were talking about the,
how, um, how the, the asteroid

killed off the dinosaurs and yada,
yada, and, um, yeah, the Martians

had to move on as the, the, the two
planets cooled in their new orbits.

And she g- she says, "Oh, yeah, I remember
some of that." And I, I, she's old.

I'm not sure I believe that
she's 65 million years old.

So perhaps, perhaps that is another sign
of time travel there, that, uh, she maybe

saw some of that in a phone box as well.

I heard a interview with the actor
where she was asked, "So what do

you make of this, your character's
continuing revelations about

having traveled with a doctor?"

And she, she sounded bemused and not
entirely sure what was being referenced.

She was like, "Well, that's news
to me. I just read the lines."

Rob: Carol Kane is, is a living legend.

needs be protected at all costs.

And yeah, I could just see her go, "Uh,
I have no idea what this fandom is."

Kevin: She sells it so well.

Like, I've watched the show a second time
now since listening to that interview and,

like, you, you wouldn't know that she has
no idea what's coming out of her mouth.

She is a delight to watch.

Rob: She's a professional, dude.

She shows up for work, she knows
her lines, she doesn't bump into

the furniture, and gives it her all.

Kevin: Speaking of professionals,
I wanna talk about the trio of Una,

La'an, and Erica down on, uh, what
is revealed to be ancient Earth.

I, I love this trio.

I don't think we've had this
particular configuration of

people working together before.

Rob: Not an away mission.

Kevin: Not on an away mission.

They were, they were definitely…
It, it was that Star Trek procedural

stuff that I really love, is
that they were doing their jobs.

They were trying to do it three different
ways because they're three different

people, and the mission found a balance
in the middle of the three of them.

And it was almost like a Kirk-Spock-McCoy
dynamic in how delightful it was

that I like… I could see an…
I could watch an entire show,

um, based around the relationship
between these three characters.

It's that strong, I thought, that
they each brought something completely

different, and it is delightful to
watch them bounce off each other.

Rob: Definitely.

And there was sort of like, as you
were saying, three different approaches

to a situation, but it didn't descend

Kevin: you just shoot it?!

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: Nothing happened.

Rob: And of course she's, you
know, and La'an punches a raptor.

Of course does.

Um, but yes, There wasn't, manufactured
tension or drama through that.

They're going, "There are three different
ideas, but how you collaborate find

a solution," that was fascinating
to see, as opposed to going, "We

need to build up drama just because
that's what we're doing, right?

We're sci-fi drama." Um, and having
a moment at the end to see, you

know, that reflection back of going,
"Tell us about your time," and where

they took a moment to look around
and go, "This is pretty incredible."

That's the thing that Doctor Who does
quite well in the modern era of going,

"Let's show the wonder of time travel."
Um, and what Star Trek does well at

times going, "Look at how beautiful
this is, what we do." To take that

moment to go look at the wonder of
time travel within, uh, the Star Trek

world is, um, a, a wonderful little,
uh, tip of the hat, which I liked.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, all of it on the, on the,
the, uh, volume as we call it.

Uh, uh, and worked particularly well.

I feel like, uh, they, they seem to
be… I could not see the edges of the

set this, this around in, in a good way.

Uh, it all had that sense of CG
backdrop about it, uh, but it's

working better than it has before.

Rob: There's a, a lot of talk about like
with the volume and the lighting and

how modern Star Trek is lit in a way.

It's like very heavily influenced
by the J.J. Abrams era, a lot

of backlighting to bring drama.

I thought the lighting here
was a good balance to give

that sense of otherworldliness as
a… So to enhance the fact that it's

a CGI background and CGI creatures,
so as to lean into that almost

mythical type of world that we're in.

But it didn't just seem like three
characters plond- plotted onto a world

that they are not ingrained into.

Kevin: If there, if there was one tweak I
would still be hoping for is a, a little

more restraint on the flyovers, I think.

I feel like because they have to
effectively build an entire 3D world

off to the horizon in order to create
these volumes around the actors,

they then go, "Well, we have the 3D
model. We might as well do a drone

shot where we fly in to establish the
place at the start of the, the scene."

And they do that too many times that
for me, the transition from, "Oh,

we're in a video game," to, "Oh,
we're in a scene with, with walking,

talking actors," is jarring each time.

It takes me out of it, of, "Oh, like,
yeah, we're flying into another,

uh, Unreal Engine creation here."

Um, so I'd like a little less of
that just for my taste, I think.

Rob: Um, now our main,
uh, storyline is, of

Kevin: The Martians!

Rob: The Martians.

We had Martians there.

The brilliant Saffron Burrows, who I
didn't recognize straight away, who

was kind of like the It girl of the
late '90s, early noughties, didding,

doing quite a few, uh, big films,

Kevin: They propped her up on platform
shoes and still I did not entirely buy

that she was supposed to be a giant
person, uh, as the have us believe.

Rob: No, but a very good actor
and, and, and brought a lot of,

uh, uh, subtle range to, uh, her
characterization, which was great.

And that was, of course, a, a, a massive
conflict between the Martians and another,

uh, species, uh, an insectoid-type race.

Yes.

Yes, who are, uh, from a, as we find out,
uh, exists on a fifth planet, an extra

fifth planet on the, uh, in our solar

Kevin: An easily exploded fifth planet.

Rob: Very easily exploded.

Can be sorted out in the
last 10 minutes of a show.

Um, and so that type of… We've
had time travel adventures in, in,

uh, Star Trek before, but going back
that far, uh, is that the furthest

Kevin: Yeah, oh.

I mean, we've had Q in "All Good Things"
bring Picard back to the primordial crust

of Earth and see the, the pools of amino
acids, uh, that life sprang from, and I

think that was probably slightly earlier.

We've also had, uh, in Voyager, the
distant origin, uh, story where these,

um, evolved dinosaurs left Earth and
went out into space, and that, that

departure from Earth occurred, or is
established to have occurred earlier

than the events of this episode.

Um, but, uh, yeah, actual, like,
meaningful time spent in a place,

I feel like 65 million years ago
is probably the furthest back.

Rob: And, um, I do love the, uh, the
reading out of, um, uh, some Edgar

Rice Burroughs, um, uh, John Carter
of Mars, uh, read out at the end.

Uh, so bringing a bit of focus.

That's old school sci-fi.

That's… I love that type of stuff.

You know, it was, you know, huge in
the 1950s, which they tried, tried to

infuse in Indiana Jones very poorly.

Um, but you know, Edgar Rice Burroughs
is even further than the 1950s.

But that whole, that romantic, uh,
obsession that we used to have with

the red planet how we tied our science
fiction, uh, adventure stories into that,

it was great to have a little taste of
it and just a hint of civilization on

the planet Mars 65 million years ago.

Kevin: I've often wondered what Star Trek
would be like if it were a little less

far-flung and a little closer to home.

Um, and they, they go back to the well
of Earth under threat in the movies

a fair bit, I think for that reason,
that if it is, if it feels familiar,

if it feels closer to home, it feels
more meaningful to the audience.

And that definitely, I think,
worked the same way here.

Uh, but it was fun to see a story of
unfamiliar civilizations and unfamiliar

y- you know, politics and, and people,
uh, in, uh, uh, on the backdrop or the

canvas of our own solar system, um, a,
a, in a very hard to… I, I find it

hard to put into words, but it, it feels
like it, it is a, a nerdy delight to see.

Rob: Yeah, like you're saying, it taking
that, that moment of the familiar of

all that we know and so we look upon it
in a different way, um, is very good.

And I love the fact that because of
this 65-million-year gap, the shorthand

that we have as Star Trek fans and
that they have as writers to just go,

"Well, everyone knows Federation policy.

"Everyone knows how to interact 'cause
we are all in the same universe," but

to have this lack of communication with
just the basics of diplomacy of how

we do all this type of stuff, how the
Martians interact with, uh, the humans.

Added on, we can't break the prime
directive so we have to be very

cagey about what information we give.

That was fascinating to see.

And like, so that gives Pike some, you
know, opportunities to go, "Come on my

ship and have a look," and go, you know,
throwing curve balls to the procedure.

Um, might send some Star Trek fans a
little bit, "Oh, that's not how the

procedure is," they were exploring
literally new worlds of diplomacy when

the established law no longer exists.

How do you create a new diplomacy?

Kevin: Oh, it was fun to watch, yeah,
Pike and Spock navigate those delicate

conversations with, uh, with Cassel.

Um, "If you have weapons to show
us personally, then I'll c- of

course I'll come over to your
ship." End, end of communication.

And Pike says, "Okay, not ideal."

Uh,

you could feel everything just
going a little sideways on him

and, and, uh, fun to watch him,
uh, off, off his balance there.

Yeah, good stuff.

Uh, ultimately this all comes
down to a fateful decision

not to fire a photon torpedo.

And, um, I don't know about you, I felt
they got the balance just right that

as that moment arrived, we all with
him went, "You can't fire the torpedo.

"Y- that, that torpedo… That planet
has to blow up." Um, and so we were

all with Pike in that moment, but
we just got there, or at least I

did, I just got there with him.

They had held back the things like, "Oh,
there is an extra planet," until the very

last moment so that we were still getting
our head around the repercussions of that

as that, that fateful moment arrived.

And to watch Pike, who is usually such
a consensus maker on his bridge, he is

usually, uh, guided by the suggestions
and opinions of the people around him.

Rarely does Pike make a captain's call,
and he does here, uh, very prominently

with, with Number One right over
his shoulder saying, uh, "You, you

can't let them destroy that planet."

Uh, and I… The m- the moments after
that, the silent moments of them watching

the planet be destroyed, the blue
light kind of hit them all in the face.

And, um, my favorite moment of the
episode was a quiet one of as, as they

were taking that in, Una just kinda
goes, "Okay, I've clearly lost this

argument," and, and retakes her station
because the, the shockwave is coming

and she's like, "Okay, the time for
disagreeing with my captain is over.

"The time for getting back to the controls
of the ship is now." And, and so just like

as everyone is flabbergasted, she very
professionally snaps back into action and,

and retakes her station, and I love that
moment as, as Pike kinda turns to the side

and watches the, the ship get swept away.

Ah, uh, s- I, I, I was
breathless through those moments.

Rob: I, I, I loved it and I particularly
loved the fact it wasn't an easy

solution so that the repercussions
were still there and still felt.

And I believe that was earned as well.

It was not that case of Pike going, "Well,
it had to happen." He said, "Well, in that

moment I didn't know anything other than
that planet doesn't exist, didn't know

that was the chain reaction that caused
our civilization to cr- to be created."

Um, but yeah.

There was a bit more focus on the
loss of the Martian culture and

not much on the other culture.

And so focused a lot on we found Martian,
you know, DNA or m- yeah, the presence

of the Martians throughout the universe.

I'm going, "There's also another race as
well." Um, and, and that was balanced out

'cause the Martians only referred to them
as insects, and there was about them.

But we had time with Erica

Kevin: Before, before the destruction
of that, there was… Yeah, there was

good stuff of they find them on the
planet and they talk about, "Well,

these were people too." And the stuff
on the ship where Pike's trying to

convince Cassell that it is worth trying
to communicate with these insects.

"We have done it before.

"You would be surprised at what's
possible with the resources

of the Federation at your" Uh,
yeah, all that, all that is good.

You're right that it kind of
goes by the wayside once, uh,

well, I guess they had to die.

Rob: Yeah, but there was not a, uh,
there was nothing flippant about it.

That's what I loved about the tone.

There was the comedy and
the wonder and the joy.

When they needed to shift into that
more heavy stuff, it was earned, and

then they still had those repercussions
of going, "If we didn't do it,

trillions of lives would've been lost."

You know, and the fact that M'Benga
pushes that going, "Trillions, Chris.

Because of that one decision, trillions
of lives have been affected and saved."

Kevin: what's not that, that trillions of
other lives might have been lived instead.

And, uh, yeah, uh, that's the,
that's the problem with time travel,

uh, is that everything you know
to be true is back up for grabs.

Rob: Yes, exactly.

Kevin: Speaking of time travel, we end
on uh, the, like a f- a few scenes.

And I, I especially love the slow
start and slow end to this story.

That's part of what made it feel so
self-contained is it had a prologue

and it had an epilogue, and they
made time for, for the before

and the after of this mission.

And in the after, there's a
lot of grappling with, "So

this was a bootstrap paradox?

"We were there all along? We h-
they had to be destroyed, and they

always had been destroyed because
we always were there?" Uh, and

Rob: And that, yeah, refer to with
the buoy as well because we sent the

buoy and that brought us into the
buoy and we be there to be… Yeah

Kevin: Yeah, uh, S- Starfleet security
technology still leaving something

to be desired that they did not
recognize their own distress call.

They… buoy.

Uh,

Rob: Hey.

Bowie.

Um, but, and I do love the fact it
ends with, "I wanna go hear about

dinosaurs." So let's just all, let's
just all sit around and talk about

the fact that we saw dinosaurs.

That's pretty cool.

Kevin: Uh, April, uh, says, "Everything
happened as it was meant to.

That much is clear." And Pike
replies, "So don't overthink it?"

Uh, I love a "don't
overthink it" in Star Trek.

Uh, I, I think these kinds of stories
almost demand that they end on a

"don't overthink it," because, uh, as
I have talked about on this podcast

before, Star Trek plays fast and
loose with the rules of time travel,

and they don't, they don't, uh,
track from one episode to the next.

And so all you can hope for is that any
individual story plays fair with itself.

Rob: Look, as Dean Pelton says in
Community when he's trying to write his

original time travel script, "Writing time
travel's hard, It's really, really hard."

Kevin: Just when you think got it.

Yeah.

Uh, and that's what we're talk about
for the rest of this episode is, is

these, um, closed loop stories, these
predestination paradoxes, these bootstrap

paradoxes, these stories that, uh,
can only happen if they had always

happened, and there is no clear reason
for them to have happened in the first

place, and that is part of the fun.

Rob: Yes, we have already explored, uh,
the, uh, the issues of time travel in

one of our episodes dealing with Trapped
in Time, which we had good foresight,

uh, to, uh, make it a very closed-off
version of time travel that we can

explore indeed the, the smaller element
as well of, uh, the predestination

paradox or bootstrap paradox as

Kevin: Yeah.

So, um, I, I watched a few Star Treks for
this and, and set a few aside that, uh,

that, uh, on rewatch I was like, "That
is not my definition of a, of a bootstrap

paradox." Um, so I did… I didn't settle
on something until I got to Voyager.

Have you got something else you wanna

Rob: I've got something before Voyager.

Yeah, I've gotta go to my baby.

I've gotta go to my, my,
my, my, my number one love.

I've gotta go to Deep Space Nine.

We're going to season three.

Season three, episode
11 and 12, Past Tense.

Kevin: Yes, the Bell Riots

Rob: The, Bell riots of that
far-flung, uh, future of 2024.

Kevin: So I take it you buy into
the theory that, uh, Commander

Sisko's face was always in that file.

Rob: Well, it's really
odd after rewatching it.

Right at the end, they're talking
with the great Dick Miller,

the wonderful Dick Miller.

Shout out to Dick Miller, who
we all know from Gremlins and,

uh, many other Joe Dante films.

Great actor playing the, playing his
usual role at the, uh, tail end of

his career playing the gruff guy.

Um, says, "You know what?

Give us your ID passes.

You both died in that, you know,
s- s- stand up, uh, s- uh, hold

up, uh, with the hostages, and your
bodies are found there." I went,

"Okay, well, that determines we'll
never see what Bell's face looks

like they're, you know," blah, blah.

And then, nope, there's a, a shot of,
uh, Sisko right there, and I could see

me looking at the camera and going,
"Don't think too much about it."

Uh, but yes, I, I assume that, uh, uh,
Sisko has always been there because

he was able to break the laws of
logic within their own storytelling.

But, um, yes, so that focuses on the
story of, uh, Dax, Bashir, and Sisko

returning to Earth with the Defiant and,
um, you know, all the other favorites.

Uh, they even have to have a call from
Quark at the start to just go, "Look,

all our cast are pretty much here."

Kevin: I can't remember what makes
go back in time in that episode.

It's just a…

Rob: Transporter.

Kevin: Ah, transporter

Rob: There's some s- something
happens with the transporter that

not only sends them back in time,
but it also puts the Defiant in a

bubble, so everything else around
them isn't Federation, but they are.

So they're the only remnants of it.

So they go back in time to, uh, a pivotal
point in Earth's history in the future,

2024, where, um, these Bell Riots happen,
uh, named after Gabriel Bell, who in a

hostage situation, um, uh, saves these
hostages' lives, dies in the, uh, uh,

attempt to save them, and because of his
heroism, it sheds light on these sanctuary

zones, where pretty much the poor, the
destitute, the, the jobless are, are put

into these internment-type camps, um.

Kevin: Of American cities, yeah.

Rob: Yeah.

Um, and this causes great change and res-
and revolution to get to the point where

we have the utopian Earth of the future.

This is the pivotal point.

Kevin: Something Deep Nine does so
well is take these social problems

that are actually real and present and
have no easy solutions and dares to,

dares to imagine a way out of them.

Uh, yeah, that… Star Trek often is
like, treats today really through allegory

and keeps it as a safe distance, but
Deep Space Nine I felt like went, dove

straight into the middle of it at times
in a way that felt especially bold.

Rob: And to, to watch it now in
2026, to see an interpretation of,

at that point would've been, would've
been, what, 20 years in the future?

No, 30 years in the future.

30 years in the future.

Um, to see quite a muted version.

So still the weaponry, the decor,
the, the costuming of the elites.

We s- see the elites of 2024 is a
little bit more Blade Runner-esque

and a little bit heightened.

But the people on the streets of,
uh, these sanctuary zones are, you

know, in quite, you know, muted modern
type clothes of what we see now.

So it's not that much of a stretch.

And to have this world of division
created in quite a naive 1990s way, but

it, it hits quite hard watching it now
in the present timeline that we are in.

Um, uh, and I, I took one quote.

Um, I know you like a good
quote, so I've done the Kevin

Yank, uh, the Kevin Yank thing.

The final section of the whole
thing when they get back safely

and all that type of stuff.

Uh, Bashir turns to Sisko and says,
"You know, Commander, I have seen a

little of the 21st century, and there
is one thing I just don't understand.

"How could they let it get so bad?"

Kevin: How indeed.

Rob: And Sisko just says, "That's a good
question. I wish I had an answer." And,

um, it made me quite emotional because,
we look at, we look at 2026 right now, and

we've got- things have gotten pretty bad.

Kevin: Still haven't pulled out of it.

Rob: And we still don't know the answer.

Um, so we need that sort of
like utopian version of the

future to happen pretty soon.

Um, so yes.

So the main bootstrap quandary here is
that they focus on the fact we are here

in the past, and we can't touch anything.

Kevin: Can't change anything except
we have to make sure everything

goes exactly as it did before.

And apparently, now you're Gabriel Bell.

Rob: Uh, yeah.

So within the first 10 min-
15, 20 minutes of them being

there, they get into a fight.

Gabriel, the real Gabriel Bell sees
them and 'cause he's such a good

soul, he tries to intervene and we
see him for about a minute and a half.

He is killed.

Kevin: Yeah, you're like, "Oh,
he's good guest star. I'm gl-

I'm gonna enjoy spending the
entire episode with this guy."

Rob: Nope.

Nope.

And it's more frustration
that he's dead as opposed to

great sorrow.

You see Bashir's face
literally going, "Oh, man!"

Kevin: What an inconvenience.

Rob: What an inconvenience.

Um, and so then it becomes a case
of the final moment of episode one.

It's a two-parter.

It's a great two-parter.

It flies along at a really good pace.

There's no, no stretching out,
no dragging here, is that Sisko

assumes the role of Gabriel Bell.

His whole persona changes as well.

It, it…

He takes on this, you know, almost,
you know, I'm not gonna say Hawk

'cause everyone refers to, "Oh,
he just played Hawk," he shifts.

His voice changes.

He goes, "I'm Gabriel Bell."
And so he plays that, filters

that all the way through.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, if I'm gonna save all of humanity, I
might as well have fun while I'm doing it.

Rob: And, you know, packing
a shotgun with, with so,

with so much class and style.

And so then it becomes that case of
we have to make these events happen,

and then it becomes a case of, was
this always the way it happened.

Kevin: That's the power of the bootstrap
paradox is y- our characters are told

that your future hinges on you doing
something you normally would not do,

and we can't explain to you why you are
about to do it other than you have always

done it and must always do it in order
for the future you hold dear to survive.

And so it forces our characters to
do things that are out of character.

And St- Star Trek, if nothing else, is
an engine with many different ways of

forcing our very professional, very, uh,
buttoned-up characters into uncomfortable

situations where they are forced to adapt.

And, and this is one of those, uh, uh,
super powered, uh, engines I feel like

that, that, th- it, it's like, uh, yes,
you gotta, you gotta set all of the normal

rules aside and just go with it because
you've already been told what you must do.

Rob: Exactly.

It did feel very much like a, a more, um,
dramatic version of the fish out of water

sit- situation we find in Star Trek IV.

Um, but what I love is that naivety of
the future, uh, culture coming back.

And so Bashir is a great way of looking
at it going, bringing that hope.

So in episode two, he's sitting with
the hostages and talking about there is

light, there is future, there is hope.

And so this, this, you know,
cynical, um, downtrodden society

can't see anything outside of the,
the, the horror they've created.

And Bashir brings that joy, and Sisko,
you know, saving, um, uh, Dick Miller's

life, that brings in that element of
there is hope, there is chance for change.

And Dax as well.

Dax is able to change a
multimillion-dollar media, you know,

oligarch's w- uh, point of view to change
and show the world what is happening.

I'm there going, "Oh, we
need a Jadzia right now."

Kevin: Yeah, we sure

Rob: With her, with her fabulous tattoos.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, it's a good one.

Um, yeah, and surprisingly
early in Deep Space Nine's run.

I feel like, uh, this is an
early glimpse of Deep Space Nine

figuring out what it does so well.

Rob: Look, seas- like everyone talks about
it doesn't get good until Season Four.

There are some incredible stuff in
Deep Space Nine, especially the,

the more it figures itself out.

They'd, they'd figured their
self out by Season Three.

Um, like the end of Season Two
they introduced the Jem'Hadar.

Um, they've already got the
Defiant by Season Three.

It's just the case of it's not as simple
as going as soon as we have, um, shaved

head, goatee Sisko and we have Worf, that
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is at its best.

This is a great representation
of, you know, you know, Sisko

was great without the goatee and
the, uh, and the shaved head.

Um, but yeah, they, they were
really confident in their

writing and their straps.

They had their characterizations
down and they knew the tone

that they wanted to push

Kevin: Yeah.

And if not raising expectations too
high, I, I feel like this week's episode

of Strange New Worlds had that same
sense of confidence of like, "This

is our groove. Let's get back in it."
And, and, um, I feel like we are going

to see a stronger, more confident,
more enjoyable, ultimately, Strange

New Worlds from this point forward.

I, I feel like that season four,
episode one is gonna be looked back on

as that's when it got reliably good.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Not that Strange New Worlds hasn't
been great all along, uh, but they've,

they've, you know, they've experimented
in ways that, uh, ultimately I feel

like were like, "Oh, yeah, we tried
that. We're not gonna do that again."

Season three, a, a slight misstep.

Now they're on, they're back on
solid foundation, and I, I, I am

hopeful that that will carry us
through to the end of the series.

Rob: That's all that Star
Trek brings to the world.

They bring, if anything
else, it brings hope.

So that's my bootstrap paradox.

What's, uh… Let's go to
your Voyager bootstrapping.

Kevin: Yeah.

I, I've got a really strong
bootstrap paradox episode, and

then a, a slightly less strong one.

So I'll start with the
stronger of the two.

This is right at the start, Season 1,
Episode 4 of Voyager, "Time and Again."

Rob: Oh, lord.

Kevin: In which the, uh, Voyager detects
in space a shockwave from a large

explosion and goes to investigate.

They discover that a planet has
eradicated all of, all life on it

from a polaric energy disaster.

That this is… And, you know, in
an allegory to nuclear, uh, energy,

this race has built their, uh,
modern society around a plentiful

but dangerous source of energy, and
it apparently, uh, a planet-wide

disaster has wiped them all out.

And, uh, the crew of Voyager beams
down to investigate and falls through a

subspace, uh, fracture that was caused
by this disaster and finds themselves

a, a couple of days earlier on the
planet with the inhabitants alive.

Uh, and in particular, Janeway and Paris
are the ones who go back in t- in time

and have to figure out how did this
disaster happen, and do we let it happen

again, or is it our job to prevent it?

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Uh, and the beautiful bootstrap
paradox of it all is the discovery at

the end that what caused the accident
was Voyager after the accident's

attempts to recover Janeway and Paris.

They are trying to open up these
subspace fractures enough for Janeway

and Paris to be able to come back
through, and that, that attempt to

open up one of these fractures is what
causes the accident in the first place.

And so this is a completely closed
loop that there is no reason

that Voyager would have ever been
even interested in that planet.

They would not have changed course to even
take a second look if the disaster had

not already occurred, but the disaster
only occurs because of Voyager's attempts

Rob: Because of Voyager.

Kevin: So, uh, yeah, just like this
week's episode of Strange New Worlds,

it starts with, "Wow, there's something
weird in space," and in hindsight, the

only reason that weird thing in space
happens is because our crew went to

investigate the thing that had no reason
for being there in the first place.

So completely closed
loop bootstrap paradox.

It's super fun when you, when…
like I was saying before, that

Star Trek tends to change its mind
about the way time travel works.

When they manage to resolve the paradox,
they av- they avert the disaster.

Janeway goes, "Ah, they're trying to
rescue me, and that's what causes this."

She phasers she, the hole
in space that is opening up.

It closes up, and a big flash of light
happens, and everything is reset.

We're back on Voyager, the,
as they were flying past that

planet, and nothing happens.

And, and so our characters do
not even remember what occurred.

The only person who does is Kes,
who had a flash of insight of the

disaster occurring even after it was
averted in a very Guinan sort of way.

Rob: Um, and that was, yeah,
early on in the time, so

Kevin: Very early on.

This feels like one of those ones
that as they were devising a show,

you know, you build up, uh, h-
these, these are the 10 episodes that

we're gonna pitch the series with.

They have to be real strong because
they are what gets us our green

light, and I feel like they had this
one in the hopper for a while and

managed to polish it to a fine finish.

Rob: And that's the early days when
they're going, "You know, let's push

this Tom Paris. He's gonna be the
lead of this exciting new show, and

they- people are gonna love a guy in
New Zealand. Gonna love this guy."

Kevin: I don't know, he, uh,
he does all right for me.

I think it is Janeway's show more
than anything, uh, this and, Paris

is there as a supporting act.

Like, um, it's fun because Paris, Paris
is… Because he's the misbehaver,

he's like, "Uh, well, now that we're
here, we've ob- obviously gotta

tell everyone what goes wrong."

And, and Janeway's like, "No.

Uh, Prime Directive.

Can't get in the way.

We can't interfere." And then in a
moment of insight, Janeway sees what's

happening and goes, "You want the truth?

I'm Captain Janeway from the Starship
Voyager." And, uh, Paris goes, "What?

I thought we weren't allowed to tell."
a fun dynamic between the two of

them as, as Janeway's very much in
charge and, and Tom Paris is trying

to keep up with her decision-making

Rob: Great.

Kevin: The other thing that I just wanted
to call out was, uh, Season 3, Episodes

8 and 9, "Future's End," Part 1 and 2,
uh, that I always remember as the time

Sarah Silverman was on, uh, Voyager.

Rob: That's right.

Kevin: So they, they go back to
present-day 1996 Los Angeles.

Uh, and, uh, and this one for me is a
less sa- satisfying bootstrap paradox, uh,

because there is, uh, a, a third element.

There is Captain Braxton from the 29th
century comes back in time and says,

"Hey, Voyager, you are responsible
for, uh, a disaster in my time.

"There was a great explosion that, uh,
destroyed Earth's solar system in the

29th century, and some, some debris from
Voyager was found, uh, afterwards. So

we are here to destroy you in an effort
to prevent that disaster in the 29th

century." Voyager fights back, and they
get pulled together back into, uh…

Well, Voyager gets, uh, sent to 1996,
whereas Captain Braxton gets sent to 1967.

He crash on, uh, '60s Earth, uh, and is
discovered by Ed Begley Jr., who, uh,

goes on to, to, uh, pillage the technology
of this time ship from the 29th century

in order to build up, we are given to
believe, the computer revolution, uh,

that, um, Voyager then arrives in 1996
and discovers it is their job to undo.

And so again, this is one of those
ones where, um, we are, we are pulled

into this situation and, um, uh, and
it is clear what our job is to do.

It is to prevent that explosion that we
are told only occurred because of us in

the first place, but it didn't really.

Um, in the end, they, they, they do
manage to avert the disaster, and

we have, uh, not so much the flash
of light and everything is reset.

Instead, we have a second Captain
Braxton come through a time portal and

go, "You're not supposed to be here.
Let me take you home." And they do.

And, and so they all remember adventure
in this, in this case of time travel.

Um, most of the fun here is watching
our crew run around what was at the

time present-day, uh, uh, Los Angeles.

And, uh, the Doctor gets his mobile
emitter from the 29th century in this

Rob: That's right.

I was just about to say, this is
the episode where he, uh, gets his,

uh, mobile emitter from the future.

And there's a lot of scenes up in
the, like the ob- the observatory

at the top of, um, uh, um, Cali- L-
LA looking down, uh, or California.

I think shot Rocketeer up there.

Know they do some scenes up there.

Kevin: Yeah.

In a similar way to Past Tense,
the, the Future's End of it all is

Voyager just starting to find its
feet and its confidence after its

first two seasons of shaky, maybe
a bit of this, maybe a bit of that.

I think they were like, "Okay, no,
we are our own thing and we can

take big swings on our own," and
they f- found their confidence here.

Uh, at the same time, there, there
are still, like, cracks in the seams.

Uh, Ed, Ed Begley Jr.'s company is called
Chronoworks, and if you, if you keep

your eyes open, it is spelled different
ways at different times in episode.

Um, and, and for me, the
casting of Ed Begley Jr. is,

is a questionable one as well.

He's meant to play an Elon Musk
figure, and, uh, I just do not buy Ed

Begley Jr. as, as that kind of, um,
Machiavellian, uh, uh, commercialist.

Rob: Yeah, he's got too much
heart, Ed Begley Jr. He's a, he's

a wonderful, wonderful actor.

He, and he doesn't play evil very well.

Kevin: Yeah.

Memory Alpha on this two-parter cites
interestingly, uh, Star Trek: First

Contact, the movie, premiered the week
after this, uh, the part two of, uh,

"Future's End" first aired, in which the
Borg Queen threatenantly s- threateningly

says, "Watch your future's end."

And, and given to believe that she
was actually just telling people

to go and watch Star Trek: Voyager.

Rob: Go watch that.

Yeah, it's all connected together.

Well, I was gonna bring up at some
point, uh, First Contact about the

bootstrap paradox so that the, the
crew go back to help Cochrane, uh,

you know, do the first warp drive.

And I

Kevin: Yeah, it, it is called out,
it is called out, I think, in an

episode of Star Trek, uh, later on.

I think it's in Prodigy, they, they talk
about how this was a bootstrap paradox.

I don't think so.

For me, for me, the events of First
Contact, I can see how Cochrane had his

first flight without the Borg being there.

There was an original version of
Cochrane's first flight that made sense,

and then the Borg getting involved and
messing it up requires the Enterprise

crew to come in and un-mess it up.

And that, to me, is not a case of
it is not clear what could possibly

have existed before the time travel.

Uh, but yeah, it's, it's a bit there.

There's a, there's a few of these
going back in time and needing to

avoid messing up the thing that
was already supposed to happen.

But it's, what's especially delicious
to me is when we are like, without the

time travel, the present would never have
existed, but how could, how could the time

travel occur without the present existing?

That s- self-referential cycle is, is
just especially Star Trek, I think.

Rob: So yes, for me, uh, transparent
aluminum the ultimate, is the

ultimate bootstrap paradox.

"That's the ticket, laddie."

"Why did they, they invent that
stuff?" "Not now, Madeline."

Kevin: All right, well it is good
to be back, Rob, uh, among, uh, the

Subspace airwaves with you, and, uh,
we've got nine more episodes of this.

Rob: Let's, let's relish each week.

Kevin: I think we are.

I think it's

Rob: I, look, I am filled with hope.

I've heard episode three is a
particular favorite of all of the

cast, so that's two weeks away.

But, um, we look forward to
that, uh, episode two, uh, which

we'll be getting very, very soon.

Kevin: Yes, indeed.

Well, until then, Rob, I'll
see you around the galaxy.

Rob: See you then.