Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Welcome back.

I feel like I should do something special
as the Stage Manager this week, Rob.

Rob: That's right.

You should do something quite theatrical.

Kevin: The, uh, podcast began
in darkness, as it always does.

We are here to discuss the latest in the
Star Trek universe with Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin,

Rob: and me Rob.

Kevin: And uh, yeah.

We are here to talk about season
one, episode eight of Starfleet

Academy, The Life of the Stars,

Rob: Raise the curtain.

Spotlight Center stage.

Kevin: Hmm, it turns out is a
reference to Our Town, which is a

play that I knew of, but have had
never studied or read or seen before.

What was your familiarity
with Our Town before this Rob?

Rob: Our Town is definitely
a cultural milestone within

American culture especially.

It's a huge, hugely popular
play, especially amongst, uh, uh,

within the high school community.

Kevin: I was gonna say, I'm not
sure it is in itself a, a theater

behemoth, but it has a huge presence
in in, in schools, as a teaching tool.

Rob: Uh, the way it is staged as
a performance is very minimal.

So it's all done, all done through
mime and bare sets and limited

Kevin: For a high school budget.

Rob: Perfect for high school budgets.

Um, it's about the sentimentality
of that Americana lifestyle.

A small town like a day in the life.

So you've got elements of sort
of like, uh, um, Dylan Thomas in

there and stuff like that, uh,
from an American point of view.

So, um.

I remember seeing a version of
it when I was in high school.

I went to the New South Wales state
drama camp when I was in year 10, back

in the nineties, and what they had
there was the high school, the Sydney

High School Theatre Ensemble, which was
this elite group of high school drama

students, and they did a presentation.

Some of the students were at this
state drama camp, and they put on a

performance of Our Town that they had
recently presented, and it just blew

my mind, blew my mind that, you know,
high school kids could do this type of

stuff, could do this type of theatre.

I've never, I've never
done a performance of it.

Um, and I haven't seen that many since.

But, um, it's sort of like, it's
sort of like known anywhere else,

but in America it is a huge thing.

Kevin: Yeah, it's also, uh, getting some,
uh, airing in, uh, Wales at the moment,

strangely, uh, the Welsh National Theatre
has just opened up with its very first

season of Our Town, uh, directed I believe
by Michael Sheen also it, uh, it seems,

plays the Stage Manager in the show.

Uh, and yeah, it's being called out
as like, you know, an an odd choice

for the Welsh National Theater to put
on a piece of Americana as its first

performance, but by being odd, I think
it it by being an odd choice, I think

it makes it an interesting choice and,
and, and lets it explore things that this

text maybe wouldn't normally explore.

Rob: It being such a bold, uh,
unusual choice to include elements

of theater and the dramatics
within the Star Trek universe.

With any major franchise, it's
always hard to find connections with

the performing arts because we in
itself join into that franchise.

We become the characters ourselves,
so we use our dramatic elements to

become Picard or become, uh, you know,
um, Data or Sulu or anyone like that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Fiction within fiction is tricky.

It, it draws attention to the fact
that you, yourself, are fiction when

you try to encompass a work like that.

Rob: To and have such a spec,
normally, I mean, we've had a long.

Uh, history of connecting Star Trek
with Shakespeare, especially within the,

uh, the movies with, uh, Leonard Nimoy
loved a good Shakespearean reference,

in a Shakespeare in a Star Trek film.

But to have such a, something as
specific as Our Town is, um, is a

fascinating, uh, angle to go with.

Kevin: Hmm.

Yes.

Well, let's take a step back from Our Town
and talk about this episode in itself.

What did you think of The
Life of the Stars, Rob?

Rob: Um, it, it, it caught up on me,
especially the, uh, the, the B plot

of, uh, SAM and the Doctor that, uh,
particularly worked, uh, for me, the

Kevin: uh, you must, you must, uh,
have a soft spot for a, uh, long

way round plot from Doctor Who.

Rob: Oh, are you, are
you, are you kidding me?

It's, uh, and it's always good to have
a emotionally detached character who,

and, and certain events lead to the point
where they have to, you know, let out the

reasons for why they are behaving the way
they are, and we feel even more for them.

Um, and stellar work from our SAM
actor, uh, doing incredible work

this week, as did Robert Picardo.

Kevin: Mm. Yeah, absolutely.

I loved it.

Uh, this was so good.

I've watched it twice now,
and it made me cry both times.

Um, yeah, it's so good.

Uh, I, this is another one of those
episodes where I feel like I almost

don't want to diminish it by pulling
it apart on my podcast, uh, because it,

it was such a, um, a magical experience
that, uh, gave me all the feels, but

yeah, really, really, really good.

Rob: And they used Tilly well, great
to, it was worth the wait for Tilly.

Kevin: Yes.

I love wise Tilly.

Uh, it feels like this is the Tilly
we were meant to have all along.

Rob: I was going to say that.

Kevin: It's, she has come, a like a
long way in a very short period of time

when you think of what that character
has been through from being a cadet

on Discovery in season one, getting
whisked off to the future, and, um,

very quickly progressing, not just
through her own career as an officer,

but into teaching future officers.

It's, it's a bit quick, I think,
but she suits it so well and plays

it so well that I wanna look past
it and, uh, just en enjoy her.

I do wish she could be the, the,
uh, one more professor that we had

at this school on a regular basis,
but also like great in small doses.

And so maybe if we only see her once
a season or so, then, then so be it.

I think we'll relish it every time we do.

Rob: Definitely I got a little bit
of a sense, like I got defensive

as you know, a drama nerd all these
Starfleet, you know, jocks are, they're

going, oh, do we have to do this?

Oh my God, can't we just go do like
simulators and stuff like that?

Oh my God.

And I'm going, you back off, all right?

Kevin: Theater is state craft.

Rob: Um, and it was, yeah, so the
development that we never got with

Tilly and the place where her character
should have been on Discovery, um, is,

is one of the big disappointments of, of
Discovery as a whole, but, and especially

with this episode, you're going, the
potential was there and what she could

have achieved as a, as an actor and

Kevin: Yeah, I see what you mean.

We were kind of robbed of the journey,
but I feel like they're giving us the

destination anyway, and nice to be there.

Just the scene with when she arrived
with Reno and uh, the chancellor,

um, in, in the chancellor's quarters
and, you know, It's okay to love

and, and calling, calling themselves
the women that time forgot.

And it was just delightful to like, yeah,
have these, these women who have traveled

through time acknowledge the momentous
distance they have come through time and

space to be where they are and to just
to allow that to sit for a moment and be

acknowledged before going back to the, the
quippy wisecracks, uh, was, it fun too.

Rob: Most definitely.

So this was also a, um, an episode
of healing for Tarima, trying to deal

with her, uh, uh, trauma and her new
state of mind and how she fits in with

everything and, uh, how she perceives
her life and her career within Starfleet

and, um, and how that all connects
to, um, the joy that is Our Town.

Kevin: I loved how they played with
the format, which is something they've

done once or twice already this
season of, of being, making the show

bend a little bit to the perspective
of the person telling the story

and be a little non naturalistic.

And we got a bit of that here as the,
the show itself, you know, it opens

with a monologue from the Doctor
who we learn, we realize later is

kind of inhabiting the persona of
the Stage manager from Our Town.

He's quoting the lines about
the sunrise and, and, and that's

something that when I went back and
looked at the play is there a lot.

Every time, every time the sun sets and
the sun rises, the stage manager is there

talking, basically tucking everyone into
bed with his words and then, and then

he's, he's the first one up before anyone
else opens their eyes and, and that role

is put on the Doctor here at the start,
and then very deftly, when the Doctor

chooses, finally, to step into the role
of parent for SAM, it is handed to Ake in

a, in a single line of dialogue that if
you're not paying attention closely, as

I wasn't on first viewing, you'd miss it.

But on second viewing, it is so
delicious when she says to the

Doctor, it's time for you to stop
telling the story and be a part of it.

I've got it from here, she says.

And the first time I saw the show,
I, I was not entirely clear what she

meant by, I've got it from here, but
it is revealed, what she's got is

the narration, the role of narrator.

And she, she narrates the rest of
the episode from that point and these

delightful little bits of theater
in our TV show, I really enjoyed.

Rob: Yeah, it's a, it's a real credit.

It's a, it's really clever writing,
really beautiful writing and how to,

um, play with the format like that.

So, um, you can't really find any real
criticisms with how the show is written,

because it's structured so beautifully.

So any criticism would be coming from a
purely, you know, trolling point of view.

Uh, sitting there and taking
it in as a piece of art and a

piece of, you know, television

Kevin: what, yeah, if this were a
straight Star Trek episode, that

would played purely naturalistically,
there are things about the plot

that I would be nitpicking with.

Like this, this concept that what
SAM was lacking was a, uh, childhood

in order to be a resilient adult.

I'm not sure how much water that holds.

And I'm not sure what kind of childhood
she can have on Kasq with just the Doctor.

Like, uh, will she have a
high school bully on Kasq?

I don't know.

Um, what, what experiences does she have
in those 17 years apart from running

through that garden and laughing with
the Doctor that will actually promote

resilience that was not present otherwise?

Um, that sort of stuff is the stuff
that, like, if you hold it too

tightly, it doesn't quite make sense.

But this, this show had the courage
to hold it loosely and let it kind

of be there to be interpreted and
enjoyed and take what you will

and find the meaning you will.

And it's okay

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: and I like that too.

Rob: Yeah.

I saw it a bit as sort of
like just literal time just to

feel and live those 17 years.

To feel that experience, not go through,
you know, obviously it's a quite closed

environment, but to, to feel those,
those years and that experience of

interactions in whatever capacity, um,
uh, to build up to that point, to return.

Because as, as, as we knew when
she first arrived, she was in the

appearance of, you know, or the, had
the personality of a 17-year-old, but

she was only, you know, a couple of
weeks, or, you know, yeah, days old.

So to have literally
lived 17 years build up.

It'll be interesting to see if there is
a change of characterization slightly

when, um, when we get her back in,
back in, uh, full, full fatigues as it

were for the, for the remaining season.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, fun to have, uh, the Doctor's
holographic family name checked.

Uh, in this

Rob: and shown!

Kevin: We talked about it
just a few, uh, episodes ago.

Uh, the Belle who was tragically killed
after a Parrises Squares accident.

Um, I, I felt very, very happy for
us, Rob, that we had had found that

connection before it was even referenced.

Rob: See what I'm doing right here,
Kevin, for those who are listening,

Kevin: Your finger is on
the pulse of your own neck.

Rob: Um, because a part of me was there
going, there has been a mention earlier,

possibly with something that went wrong
with the Prodigy crew, um, that we kind of

get the imp impli implication of when SAM
first had interactions with the Doctor.

But it's the smarter move to focus
on the Doctor's, you know, you know,

trauma of dealing with the loss of
his, you know, uh created daughter.

Um, and that Picardo is so good.

Picardo is so good.

He's such a great comedic actor, but
he has those dramatic elements as well.

Um, and it's, you know, it's a
credit to him that he's been able

to come back and they've given him
something, you know, really, you

know, meaty to sink his teeth into.

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting to think back on the
Prodigy Doctor now and, and see him

as like was, I guess he was kind of
standoffish then, and it's because they

were writing him for, for comedy and the,
like, I think they were leaning into the

fact that he is just a hologram in Uh,
and, and, but because of that, they can

now tell this, this like deft thing of
the reason he was so standoffish and he

wasn't a mentor to any of those kids, uh,
in the way perhaps Hologram Janeway was

in that, uh, show, um, was because he was
protecting himself from, from loss again.

Yeah.

Rob: Um, I love, there's some
really beautiful compositions

of shots and color choices.

Like with on, on, Kasq, there
was like a lot of black and

white with hints of color.

Kevin: It seems directly
inspired by our, Our Town again.

Um, in the, in the shuttle, they gave
us as audience members who they know

may not be familiar with Our Town,
which I wasn't as I was watching it,

they give us just enough to understand
the reference they're about to make.

They talk about how the, the Stage
Manager, uh, sets things up in,

in a, uh, muted half light and
how color does not appear until

someone is allowed to look back.

And then the very next scene, they
are in a muted half light with no

color until we see SAM's memories
coming out the back of her head.

And yeah, it is.

It's like, oh, yes, you, the, you are
doing the thing you just described.

That must be a little weird to the
characters who are, who are like, hang on,

I was just describing this, but it works
for us as the audience, which is great.

Rob: All in all, um,
I, I loved the episode.

Again, the, the high school
drama stuff is, you know, evident

because that's what this show is.

Um, and so them being all teenager and
going, I don't wanna do this stupid play,

kind of, you know, uh, annoyed me a little
bit, but I was understanding what it was

achieving and there was some great, uh,
developments there for these characters.

And Tilly did a great job of
coming in and, um, you know,

getting them out of their funk.

Kevin: Just like in Our Town, I think
some of the sweetest stuff here were

the little scenes that were just moments
in the life, that were not necessary to

the story, but enriched the characters.

Um, Genesis looking after drunk
Tarina after she comes back

from her close shave with Caleb.

Seeing, Tarina get to know SAM
in their new shared quarters.

These little, these little scenes, I,
uh, were some of my favorite in the show,

and they, they, they were allowed to be
quiet and there were moments of silence

of characters looking at each other and
I caught myself as an audience, kind of

like letting my breath out and going,
wow, we are, we are being allowed to

sit here and live with these characters.

This, uh, to, to use a term I I
used last week, it feels luxurious.

It feels like the kind of stuff we
have not made time for in our Star

Trek lately, because it's been rush,
rush, rush to the next plot point.

And, uh, yeah, I, I love the
confidence that this show is showing

by spending its time this way,

Rob: Agreed.

Kevin: letting episodes be an hour and
four minutes if that's what they need.

We, we've had really long episodes this
season as well, which I've really enjoyed.

Rob: Yeah, I definitely appreciated the
lack of the gimmick of being within a high

school situation and making it too flashy,
to take those moments um, to really sink

in, so any of that annoyingness because
they're just young people and I'm getting

too old and all young people annoy me,
um, to that point of, yeah, those moments

of quiet, those moments of connection,
those moments of compassion, those moments

that we haven't really had a chance
within other Star Trek, like you said.

Um, it's, yeah, it's a bold decision
and so, and it sneaks up on you.

Kevin: There's definitely lots of
fun classroom hijinks here as well.

Like when Ocam gets assigned the role of
Stage Manager and he's like snapping his

fingers and goes Sick, and it's just like,

you know, it's 2026 high
school kids all over the place.

But, but that stuff is there too and,
and, uh, is allowed to, we're allowed

to relish it for its own sake too.

The last thing I watched in
preparation for this was actually

a production of Our Town.

Um, I found there is one
on YouTube starring, um.

it's circa 2004 or, but it, uh, it has
Paul Newman as the Stage Manager who

brings a lot of gravitas to that role.

Um, and it is, unlike a lot of
these like filmed productions of

Our Town that are like they, they've
reinterpreted it as a movie, this one

is very much staged as a stage show.

It, it, it is shot definitely for
television and lit for television,

but everything happens on a stage
with, with pieces of set moving

here and there and, and, you know,
vignettes existing amongst each other.

Um, and yeah, I, I enjoyed it.

It's, uh, it's interesting watching a
production that is now old enough to

be a bit retro on its own, producing a
story from the 1940s that therefore has

its own second level of like looking
back on it, it of a, of a script that

itself is kind of reflecting on the
nature of American society at that time.

It felt like there were kind
of three layers of, of, of

reflectiveness competing for each,
uh, for attention with each other.

Uh, but I do, I did enjoy
it, and it's free on YouTube.

So if anyone, uh, is listening
to this going, I, I didn't quite

get what they were going for
with the Our Town references, um.

I don't think it's mandatory viewing by
any means; I think they give us everything

we need in this episode to understand
what they're talking about, but it,

it's, it's an interesting play for sure.

It feels, you know, to, to Tilly calling
it statecraft, it feels like a piece

of theater that is attempting to, set
a definition for what good American

society, what, what, uh, you know,
the small town life that we should be

aspiring to produce as good Americans is.

That's, my take of it, is that it was,
it was a little bit prescriptive, but

not in any way that I disagree with.

So I was kind of really, like happy
to go along with it, but at the

same time, I just did feel this
kind of odd sense of this play is

telling us how to be as people.

Rob: I do love the fact that, of, you
know, Star Trek does have a tendency

to have this almost naive mythologizing
its own, uh, history and culture.

So sort of like, you know, it's wonderful
watching, you know, Voyager and they

have hologram re representations of
the guy who started Woodstock or,

you know, references to the past
in, um, uh, uh, the journey home.

So to have this, this very singular play
experience that is a part of the, the US

zeitgeist to become a part of this Star
Trek myth of America, um, and that, well,

you know, of theater and society, but
it's American society in some ways is, uh.

Kevin: Yeah, that was conspicuous too.

They never call this an
American play or, or talk about

America was between two wars.

They say Earth was between two wars and
they round the United States up to the

entire, uh, Earth in the same way that
they do with every society in Star Trek.

It's like, this is the, this is the beach
planet because it is entirely beach.

And the, the, the president of the
beach is the president of the planet.

You know, the, the, is no, there
is missing a, a level of scale

between the, the, yeah, the one
country and the, the entire world.

They, they kind of collapse that
upwards, uh, in Star Trek and they,

they do that to historical Earth here,

Rob: Yes.

And the, the importance of Our Town to
the entire history of, of the Earth.

Kevin: Of the,

Earth.

Well, it's, that is funny 'cause like I
think an American audience, you'd have a

pretty good chance that you have, you have
studied Our Town in high school yourself,

but here in Australia and in other
places around the world watching this

show, they would probably go Our Town?

Never heard of it.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

And pretty much it's, it, it,
especially, yeah, here in Australia,

it would only be known by, uh,
the nerdiest of theater nerds.

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Well, well done, uh, well
done Starfleet Academy.

I thought this was a triumph.

I, uh, I would happily accept
this as our season finale,

but we've got two more to go.

Rob: Two more to go.

I think we need to resolve
some issues with the, uh, a

certain, uh, uh, nasty character.

Kevin: Yes, it does seem that way.

And, uh, so before we, um, head off into
the rest of this season, let's take a

moment to look at theater in Star Trek.

So you talked a bit there,
Rob, about how Shakespeare is a

recurring element of, of Star Trek.

We've, we've on it recently in some of
our, our, our movie chats, but, uh, yeah.

Let's, let's go, uh, a little
more deeply into times that

we have seen the stage Star

Rob: I'm, I'm very intrigued to see,
uh, I was intrigued to see how the world

of theater, the world of the stage,
the world of acting has been presented

within the Star Trek world, because
especially like we've talked about

within the movies, especially Star Trek
VI, a little bit of Star Trek IV and

Star Trek II, they have that element of
even, even the stories that are being

told are quite Shakespearean, want to
use that, especially in Star Trek VI.

Um, you know, it's all Hamlet and Macbeth
and even Richard III a little bit.

But, um, just to, to look at the down
and dirty day-to-day process of being

in the theater and what putting a
play on means and what it connects

to you as a person and a human being.

Um, I'm very interested.

I was interested to see the almost
clinical, scientific kind of, you know,

utopian view of the world could fit the
down and dirty and muddy and, uh, and,

and deliciously dramatic world of theater.

Uh, they seemed quite, you
know, incongruous to me.

There's a, there's a juxtaposition
between the two, but, um, but

yes, it was been fun to explore.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, I'm gonna start us off with, uh,
what I think must have, must be, uh, the

first appearance of theater in Star Trek,
which is season one, episode 12 of the

original series, the Conscience of the

Rob: of the King!

Jinx.

Kevin: Jinx.

All right.

We've matched.

Had you seen this episode before, Rob?

Rob: I had not.

I had not seen this episode before.

I hadn't heard of it.

Um.

Kevin: a classic.

This is one of those episodes I feel
like when I was growing up with Star

Trek and, uh, it was just watching
whatever show they, whatever episode

they happened to put on as a rerun
that week, The Conscience of the King

came up more often, than, average.

I feel like this is one that
I've seen again and again.

Uh, I don't know if I just, I watched it
on a particular, particularly susceptible

day where it, it burned itself into
my synapses, but I feel like I can

see this episode with my eyes closed.

Rob: It's, um, things that stood
out for me: how it's lit. It

is lit incredibly beautifully.

There's so much range of purples
and, and greens and blues and

pinks, and it just, uh, it's just
incredible for the, for the eye.

Kevin: They comment on the lighting at
one point in this episode, when Kirk

is, uh, you know, taking Lenore on the,
their date to the observation windows one

of, one of the very few peeks outside,
like through a window, uh, that we

in, in Star Trek, the original series.

And, uh, she says, did you arrange the,
the romantic lighting for me, especially?

Rob: Um, any, uh, yeah,
should be candlelight as well.

I think she

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right.

Rob: Um, also, particularly, there's the,
the, the enhanced CGI shots were a lot

more involved than in future ones that
I've seen, which is kind of like a stock

standard, just recreation just a bit.

But this one had camera turns and
um, and tilts and all this type

of stuff and, and long shots of
getting in closer to the Enterprise.

I'm going, alright.

So they've put a little
bit more money behind that.

Um, and notice that.

But what I noticed about the
representation of the theater

world, especially this Shakespearean
world, it was very classic.

So sets were almost like a
high school set, but it was

like a fairytale type look.

So it's like old school
castles, medieval type castles.

The costumes are so old school, medieval,
they didn't wanna do any sort of

like anything other than this is old.

The big frilly shirts, big
velvet jackets and uh, doublets

and all that type of stuff.

It was, uh, it was

Kevin: Completely by the
numbers, Shakespeare.

Rob: And the performance style
as well was quite classical

and, and all that type of stuff.

There was no room for any nuance here.

It was theater, old school.

You get, uh, love the shots behind
the scenes with Kirk trying to

convince Riley to drop the gun.

Kevin: They had so many layers
of red curtains back there.

Rob: who could, when did, did
the acting troupe bring that with

them or is that on the Enterprise?

I know the sets they brought in.

Kevin: I remember when, uh, they
called, uh, security to the theater.

They mentioned the ship's
theater specifically.

Rob: As, as Kirk walks out, he goes,
I'm heading to the ship's theater.

I'm going, that's, that's not a thing you

Kevin: The ship isn't big
enough to have a theater.

Rob: You have just turned a
rec room into a theater, okay?

Kevin: That's what I expect.

Rob: I think you're being a
bit too presumptuous there.

Kevin: I liked how, um, non
sci-fi this episode was.

It a day in the life of this world
without any wild sci-fi things.

I mean, the, the most sci-fi thing
that happens is, uh, I guess, this

reference to a colony that ran out of
food, and, and so Kodos who became known

as kudos, the executioner, um, decided
to snap his fingers, if you will, and

half of the colony in order to, uh,
preserve the life of the other half.

And that, that, that, that
is, uh, something that Kirk

witnessed in his childhood.

Like I suppose that's a bit,
um, heightened slash sci-fi.

But as far as the events that take
place here, you know, it's a ship

going from one port to another,
picking up a, a traveling, uh,

troupe of thespians along the way.

There, there is nothing much
that that could not happen in,

uh, an earthbound show here.

And I kind of like that, that
the, the setting is used, um,

matter-of-factly rather than to, to
hold up some improbable piece of plot.

Rob: Yeah, and it gave us a little
bit of Kirk lore that I wasn't aware

of, that was sort of like a, a, a
blank, uh, space within my knowledge.

So, yeah, this was 20 years ago.

So at this point he's in
his, what, early thirties.

So yeah, he's saying he would've
been a young, you know, young,

early teenager or you know, preteen.

Um, but it was giving almost the
impression that he was a little bit older.

'cause Riley was there as well,
but Riley even younger, so

Kevin: yeah.

Rob: so he would've been like
under the age of 10 possibly?

But how long was Kirk on this colony?

Was he ba because he was born in Iowa?

We know about that.

Um, so.

Why was a early teenager
preteen Kirk on this colony?

Very interesting to see.

And he didn't lose any family,
it didn't seem to imply.

Yes.

Um, lots of questions and

Kevin: There's a bit of that stuff
that, like Kirk lore that was

established in just one episode
and never referenced again.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: Uh.

We talked about that in a previous episode
of Strange New Worlds where there's a,

there's a disaster, uh, for Kirk that we
know about that, uh, is either coming or

recently passed, uh, onboard the Farragut.

I think it is coming.

The, the Obsession disaster that shakes
his confidence as a captain for a while.

Um, but yeah, just mentioned in
one episode and never dealt with

again, so, yeah, not the first one.

Rob: No.

And um, yeah, it was
very much dealing with a,

a very human, uh, type of situation.

It would be, it did feel like a
lot of sci-fi from the sixties.

It happened with Doctor Who as well.

It feels like a remnant of World War II.

It's very much that that was
still fresh in the minds of

the writers and of of society.

So those people who were escaping justice
or hiding who weren't caught for the

Nuremberg trials or, you know, stories
of Nazis, fleeing to Brazil, um, finding

sanctuary in, you know, South American
countries and all that type of stuff.

So there's definitely a deep connection
to, uh, war that was, you know,

modern, modern history at that time.

Kevin: Hmm.

Rob: I love the reveal of, and
I could see it coming, 'cause

it was staged so beautifully.

But he's, you know, the opening cold
sequence, uh, is in the theater and

Kirk's with, uh, his old friend Tom,
uh, and Tom has only ever seen him.

Yes.

And he and Tom is only ever seen in
profile, and it isn't until they, then,

after we go to the credits and we come
back and he's in, in Tom's apartment

with his wife and he's still in profile.

And he goes, you know,
can you move on from this?

And he turns and he reveals like his
whole half of his face is covered in

this like black tape to cover it off.

He goes, I can never move on.

Kevin: It's so strange.

Yeah.

Yeah, obviously you know, it, it says
a lot without saying anything at all,

that, but then hearing what actually
happened on that colony that people

were put to death, it does not really
explain what happened to his face, like,

Rob: Especially 'cause they
talk about the fact they, they

kill them with with no pain.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rob: Yeah.

Of there going, all right, O Okay.

What's.

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's uh, it's a strange one for sure.

Rob: Um, but I was kind of caught up in
it 'cause I had never seen it before.

So I'm there going, all right, is
it, is it, is it him, is it not?

And part of me was thinking,
oh, there's something glaring

Kevin: They walked a fine line there.

Even when you see the two, like Kirk
puts them side by side on the screen and

it's the same actor playing them both.

But you're still like, are they the same?

They, different.

That mustache is pretty wild on that one.

Maybe it is a different person.

Rob: And a part of me was going, well,
maybe it could be, uh, the daughter.

And then you go, oh, no, okay,
they're gonna do the whole thing.

It's, they're the same but not conclusive.

So maybe they'll do the whole
thing and then at the end

they just go, no, it was her.

She did it whole time.

And I went, aha.

And that was a beautiful little
scene, like the, like, Kodos going,

you know, I, that shadow of my past,
I didn't want her to infect you.

You were my bright.

You

Kevin: moment.

Rob: and, and, and she doing
classic 1960s, uh, gorgeous

actress turning mad and crazy!

Kevin: Just like, uh, lady Macbeth.

Rob: Lady Macbeth.

That's right.

Um, one thing I will note.

McCoy was very weird in this
episode, like his first scene, he's

Kevin: Look, I'm drinking.

I'm drinking here, and if you're not
with me, don't judge me for drinking.

Rob: and I'm there going,
this is like episode 12.

Have they not figured out McCoy yet?

Because he's just, the whole scene,
he's just going, let's have a drink.

And it wasn't until later on I go, okay,
there's the McCoy we know, all right,

we have to get to the second scene.

I'm going,

Kevin: There's the McCoy we know,
uh, recording logs about his patients

while they're standing background.

Rob: he's standing right.

And all the detail just gonna go.

'cause of course, Riley, parents
were killed right front him.

I do hope he doesn't.

Oh, good lord, maybe he heard me.

You think McCoy?

Kevin: Oopsie.

Rob: You're meant to be a smart man.

You're a doctor for God's sake.

Kevin: Kevin Riley's good.

He's actually, he appears in two episodes,
that character, in The Naked Time, the

one where they all get, uh, uh, you
know, kind yeah sexy drunk, um, yeah.

And yeah, he's good.

He, uh, as a, as a day player,
I guess he fits right in.

And, um, I really like the, the play back
and forth with the rec deck, with Uhura

singing the song, and it, it creates
this sense of life aboard the ship in

Rob: And we rarely s we, we
rarely see that in, uh, TOS.

I'm just going, this is,
they should do more of that.

It's like, if they did that in
Discovery, I'm going do more of that.

Like Uhura with her musical instrument and
just singing and she sounded great and it

was a way of keeping him, um, entertained.

'cause he was down to the lower levels.

I went, this is great.

If the whole show was, you know, not
just focused on the, the, the main three

you could expend to have a little bit.

Kevin: So the theater here, um, I, I like
the idea of the traveling troupe that,

uh, plays at Starfleet installations all
around the galaxy that, uh, they move.

Rob: And they talk about the
Galactic, Galactic Theatrical,

Kevin: yeah, yeah.

Rob: the Galactic Dramatic
Society or something.

And they do a little speech at the start
about, you know, to preserve the way that,

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: stories were told in the past.

And, and I, I, I love that type of,
you know, representation of keeping

culture, uh, as you know, alive.

And the, the, their responsibility
is to travel from ship to

ship and travel the Galaxy.

It's, very old school.

Kevin: And later in the movies
and Next Gen, it feels like every

second Starfleet officer is now
a Shakespearean connoisseur.

Uh.

But back here in the original
series, it was fun to see them kind

of plant that seed and you kind
of get the sense that Kirk doesn't

really care about Shakespeare.

Like he is not moved by any of the
quotes or, or anything like that.

He's like, yeah, whatever.

We're taking you to prison, you know?

And it, it is, it interesting here
to see it, on the one hand, given

enough importance that apparently
like these people's full-time job

is to tour Starfleet installations
and keep Shakespeare alive.

But on the other hand, seeing Kirk
kind of go, kind of be not moved by it,

but um, but this feels like it plants
the seed for, sh Shakespeare as the,

as a touchpoint or a springing off
a springboard for this story kind of

allows Shakespeare to grow in the Star
Trek consciousness to the point where

it, it becomes much larger later on.

Rob: Agreed.

Kevin: Yeah.

I, I, I, I feel like I, I wonder if the,
the big book of plays in Picard's quarters

would've been Shakespeare's Complete
Works, if not for this episode, or if

this had chosen some other touchpoint
of, of theatrical history, whether,

whether that's where we would've gone.

Um, yeah, this, this does feel
like the, the start to me.

Rob: There's some great stuff in,
in this ep of, yeah, we, you could

read into it and see how, um,
this connection with Shakespeare,

does it start here for, for Kirk?

Um, and you know, Spock is
the one who does a lot of the

Shakespeare in references or
acknowledgements within the movies.

And here he's just very much
focused on trying to solve the

riddle of what Kirk is doing.

'cause Kirk is very cold and cuts him
off and going, this is my own business.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm, uh, I'm, I'm making some questionable
decisions and I'm keeping you out

of it, so it's entirely my fault.

That's fun little trope as well happens
now and then when Kirk suddenly, suddenly

goes, uh, incommunicado from his own
first officer and, uh, to watch them

test the trust between them is fun.

Rob: And the usual lead, lead man
of the sixties, when McCoy comes in,

he goes, you want to talk about it?

Well, clearly you don't
wanna talk about it.

You wanna say something about
this woman you kinda liked?

Let's move forward.

Think you just told me then.

I'm going,

Kevin: You tell me
everything I need to know.

Rob: You told everything I need to know.

And that's all right.

'cause men don't share their
opinions or their feelings.

They share their opinions.

They don't share their feelings.

That's what a real man is, blah.

Talk, god— that's why I like
Kirk in the movies better.

He talks.

Kevin: Yes, he's

Rob: Kirk comes.

Yeah, McCoy comes over and
goes, what the hell's wrong?

Goes, I'm feeling old.

I'm feeling useless.

I'm feeling worn out.

Great.

That's what you do, Kirk.

You talk about your feelings.

You're learning.

Kevin: I'm

Rob: Not in the sixties, no.

Just gonna kiss this crazy woman
I'm not gonna talk about it all.

That's what man does.

Kevin: what a man does.

I have another, uh, episode to talk about.

Rob: Yeah.

Yes

Kevin: episode 21.

Frame of

Rob: Frame of Mind.

Jinx.

Kevin: Double!

Double jinx!

Amazing!

Rob: What a great episode!

Kevin: I thought you like it.

Rob: my.

Not only because, um, the, the play
that they're using is excerpts from

a Tom Stoppard play called, Good Boy.

Yeah,

Kevin: I had no idea it
was a real world play.

Rob: It's elements of it.

They, so they've shifted it to sort
of like, they've changed elements

of it, but it's a tom Stoppard
play, incredible rider who passed

away sadly, uh, uh, uh, last year.

Um, Every Good Boy Deserves, uh, Favors.

Um, and it's a similar thing.

It's about, um, Russian, Russian,
uh, uh, uh, prisoners of war who

are put into this, uh, trying to
be convinced that they're insane.

And music plays a huge part of it.

And at this time, um, uh.

Patrick Stewart directed a
production of it using cast

members from, uh, Next Generation.

So it had a premier, I
believe, in Boston or Chicago.

And so I think, um, Brett
Spiner and Jonathan Frakes were

actually in this production.

So they use elements of that
in, um, in Frame of Mind.

Kevin: Wow.

That's amazing.

I had no idea.

I, I thought it felt a little One
Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest to

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: of the, uh, the arguably sane
man trapped in an insane asylum.

Rob: That cold opener, which is,
you know, not showing Data, but

it's clearly Brent Spiner's voice.

got Riker going insane.

And the beautiful moment, which I
love as an actor, as a performer,

when they break it and he goes and he
puts his hand on his head and he goes,

I'm sorry, what's that line again?

You go ah!

This is, this is it Star Trek,
reality, drama, uh, play, you know,

playwriting, all of it comes together
and gone, oh, this is, this is

gonna be an episode I'm gonna love.

Kevin: Jonathan Frakes
did a good job with this.

I feel like he's a, uh, it's a fine line.

He often, Jonathan Frakes often talks
about disparagingly about his own acting

skill that he, he is a, he is a stand up
straight and say your line sort of actor.

But here he is being asked to play a
Starfleet officer being asked to be

an amateur actor, and so showing the
cracks of that performance and his

limitations, as Riker's limitations as an
actor, uh, and that, that's a fine line.

I, I think he does a
pretty good job of it here.

Rob: I think so, I'm, I, look, I
am a huge fan of Jonathan Frakes

and I love how, uh, humble he is.

And like, especially 'cause he's
surrounded himself for decades

now with, you know, Brent Spiner,
who's an incredible, incredible

actor and especially, you know,
the great Patrick Stewart.

So he never elevates himself
at the same level as them.

He just goes, oh look, I'm just
a, I was just a soap opera actor.

I just walk and talk
and show up and know the

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Um, but within the format of, uh,
Next Gen him being that, uh, younger,

more active number one, it gave him a
lot more, you know, romantic scenes, a

lot more action scenes, uh, that Kirk
would usually have done in the original

series, but also have these psychological
episodes where their number one is

going down to do a covert operation at
the same time as putting on an amdram

performance by the ship's doctor.

Kevin: Oh no, you, you've got a few
days before the, uh, the mission.

Um, so you can definitely
be in the play first.

Rob: can do opening night of the play.

Kevin: How these people spend
their time is, is very funny.

Yes, I agree.

I'm a sucker for these, these brain
teaser episodes where you're not

sure what's real and we revisit
the same moments again and again.

It was very Cause and Effect in that way.

And, and this was one of the
episodes written under the auspices

of Brannon Bragga, who is master
of this kind of storytelling, of

like you second guessing yourself.

Uh, uh, yeah, I really enjoy that.

Rob: it's very much of a bygone
era, this type of psychological

drama because we have come so much
further within our understanding of

psychology of, uh, wellbeing of mental
health and the definitions of, you

know, uh, uh, uh, neuro spiciness
as we call it, um, as I call it.

Um, and so this is very much of a
time of that eighties, nineties with

that almost naive dramatization, uh,
and especially putting it within the

confines of a, of a play as well.

So, it almost heightens it to
that point of theatricality.

I mean, I'm a huge comic book fan,
uh, and uh, Batman fan as well.

And the whole riddle of Batman's villains,
uh, uh, all psychologically damaged or

traumatized people, and as a kid you're
there going, oh, isn't it so exciting?

This good person, just one bad
day sends them crazy and turns

them into a super villain?

And then when you get older and you,
and especially you go, okay, well

let's look at actually what this means
from a psychological point of view and

psychology and psychiatry, mental health
and treatment and all that type of stuff.

So it's, it's not disrespectful
in this episode, but there is a

heightened dramatization for that
case of what is reality what isn't.

And certainly a case of, uh, old
school treatment in a, um, in a

mental health facility was never,
was not back in the day, was not

as, um, understanding as it is now.

Kevin: It's, uh, yeah, it's such a well
done version of what it is going for here.

The use of the play at like, I feel like
that final time where Riker is kind of

teasing it apart and figuring out what's
going on, and he starts to play with it

and he's, he's, he shouts you are lying
and it gets a, a round of applause and

then he does a bigger one they stand
up and give him a standing ovation

and then he breaks the entire reality.

And, and, and that stuff of like the,
the, the theatrical elements highlight

the climax of this episode that I,
I, I, I find it really enjoyable.

Rob: Yes, and turning the metaphors into,
into, you know, real visual effects.

So he's literally shattering the walls
and breaking down this deception in

Kevin: What did you think
of those shattering effects,

those, uh, those 1990s,

Rob: Love

Kevin: video effects?

Rob: Love it.

Love it.

I'm there going, that doesn't
need to be updated at all.

You're right, you're

Kevin: When guy breaks apart and
he goes, what just happened to him?

It's so good.

Rob: Um, but I love the fact that within
this, what you could do with this type

of drama is they created a whole world,
a whole reality, even though it was.

So you, you found out a little bit
about the, the inmates within this

delusion, guards their position of
how and the history, like the guard

saying the history of when we brought
you in, you had blood on hands and the

relationship between the guards and
um the patients that was fleshed out.

Kevin: And the other patients, whether
they're delusional or not, knowing

about Starfleet and being able to
talk about starships and, and, and,

and, ranks and things like that.

Yeah.

It really, it really is, uh, fleshed
out in a, in a delightful way.

Yeah.

Rob: It's always, always great when you
have one of the greatest actors of the

last a hundred years, Patrick Stewart
sitting there and they're going, well,

I'm glad that you are doing it 'cause
I don't want to be in Beverly's play.

That's

Kevin: It was, yes, it was conspicuous
how little acting, uh, Picard

got to do in this episode about

Rob: Just sitting in
the audience stone face.

even when claps he stone face.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: And a beautiful moment at the
end when everything is he, you know,

Riker has got himself out of this
situation and, uh, they go, well,

we're striking the set tomorrow.

And he goes, no, no, no.

It's something I need to do.

And the final shot of him is
tearing down the set, ripping it

down and going, wonderful stuff.

Kevin: Yeah.

Oh, it's so good.

This one's a Yeah.

There's nothing wrong
with this episode at all.

Rob: No, not at all.

Kevin: This is, this is peak
Star Trek: The Next Generation.

When they were telling these stories
that were within the world, but they were

about the characters, like these character
based stories within this very rich world

that they had built up after six seasons.

Just seeing the dynamics between
Riker and Troi, the fact that when

you know Riker gets freaked out, it.

It doesn't cut to, oh, I better make an
appointment with the ship's counselor.

It cuts to him and Troi at the bar in Ten
Forward mid-conversation, this shorthand

that of course, he would go to talk to her
and there would be no beating about the

bush because they know each other so well.

They would jump straight into it, and
because they have such a clo close ship.

Relationship.

The, the run in with Data in the hallway
where he congratulates him on his

improv, uh, for, for a truly realistic
portrayal of multi-infarct dementia.

It is all sitting on six seasons
of character building and world

building that lets us do these fun
things, uh, with very little setup.

Um, and yeah, it's so rewarding
to watch peak, peak TNG.

Rob: And like Conscience of the King,
very little is focused on sci-fi, really.

It's, it's, it's a very psychological
based drama, um, and suspense story.

And there's elements of sort, like,

Kevin: an alien race is introduced
but not really commented on.

We, we are left to infer
what kind of aliens they are.

Just the, the machine that projects parts
of Riker's psyche, which we accept as

a potential sci-fi thing, but turns out
to be part of the delusion all along.

Yeah.

So yeah, the great stuff.

Rob: And so like there's, you know,
the government has collapsed and

so they're going to this world to
find out what's going on that could

be happening on Earth, that could,
you it's that type of stuff isn't.

It's sci-fi is at its best when it's
dealing with issues of, you know,

our time that we can connect with.

And, um, I just love the fact that
the staging as well, like watching,

uh, Conscience of the King and
then watching Frame of Mind and the

staging is set up very much the same.

So

Kevin: Yeah, they're reusing a room
that's normally something else.

Yeah.

Rob: Even, yeah, 150 years or
however many years later, they,

they don't know how to do theater.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: just turn this function,
this function room, and in, so

they at least they have tiered

Kevin: To be fair, a lot of theater
is that way too these days, Rob.

Rob: Lot of independent theater, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The fact that they have tiered as
opposed just all on the one level.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Um, I'm very impressed that they'll
go, well, at least we need to have

it on, on a raised stage at point,

Kevin: We need to replicate some rostra.

Rob: But the lighting is just pure, just
one light, no color, no tone at all.

Just yeah.

Lights on.

Lights off.

Kevin: We had exact match this week,

Rob: uh, I think that's the first time.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: That is the first time
we, uh, have matched that way.

Uh, which shows, uh, how precise, um,
how limited there are in the range

of, of theater within Star Trek.

There's also the beautiful episode, which
we have talked about before in Prodigy,

where they do a theatrical representation
of what Starfleet meets to them in

Kevin: All the World's a Stage.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

But we have talked about that one before.

Um, and at one point I would love to see
a, uh, the full Klingon version of Hamlet.

Kevin: Very good, or at least the
opera that ends with three inches

of blood sloshing around the

Rob: That's right.

J Tilly go.

Well that was a lot of blood.

you Jay-Den.

Lot of murder and a lot
blood in those Klingon

Kevin: Snap,

Rob: Snap, snap, snap.