Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Welcome back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin,

Rob: and me, Rob,

Kevin: and we have a heck of a
Star Trek to talk about today, Rob.

Rob: Wow.

What a, uh, turn from the most, you
know, the most recent affairs of Star

Trek, um, Academy have been quite light
in, its, in, its, uh, in its dealing of

Kevin: Lulled us into a false
sense of hijinks and, uh, man.

Yes, a big tone shift this episode.

Rob: Massive tone shift.

Uh, did you think they, uh, pulled it off?

Kevin: Yeah, I did, I did, Rob.

That was, ah, that was delectable.

I felt like I had nothing to say.

After so, so many of these episodes.

I was like, that's good,
and I can understand why.

I just felt like the good was so
overwhelming this episode that it was

kind of a conversation stopper for me.

I, I needed some time to
process after watching it.

How about you, Rob?

Rob: Yes, very much.

Uh, um, it, everything just kept on going.

And there was a point where
I'm going, well, this is the

point where the good guys win.

This will be the point where they turn it
around, they're being clever and smart.

And, um, then it was the revelation of
going, oh no, they're leaning into this.

Oh no, they are doing this.

Oh, this is a complete and
abject failure on the part of

all our, our characters involved.

And we can be grateful that we didn't lose
more lives of people on screen as opposed

to the ones that were lost off screen.

Um, yeah, it was a. It was
a bitter pill to swallow.

But that's the, that's type of the
balance of what we like about Star Trek

is being able to play one or the other.

Kevin: Yeah, the wins don't
matter if there's no losses.

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly.

We need, you know, the light
shines brighter, um, you

know, within the darkness.

Um, but yes, especially being a fan of
Deep Space Nine, which, uh, is known for,

its, uh, focus on the dark and the tone
shift, um, I'm there, I was ready for it.

And I think it adapted well within
what we've been getting with our,

you know, our, our young adult type
of light high school drama affair.

This definitely leaned into
these kids are not ready.

And in many ways, you know, Ake and
our grownups have underestimated,

Kevin: Caught flatfooted.

Rob: Yeah, not really underestimated,
but just been, you know, outplayed.

Kevin: Uh, the show kicked off with
a bit of canoodling with Caleb and,

uh, Tarima in the, uh, field of
yellow flowers and also, um, on a

bench by the Golden Gate Bridge.

I, I'm a bit of a camera nerd, and those
shots of them sitting on the bench with,

with the bridge in the background, the
bridge was large, and that tells me that

they were shot from quite a distance with
a real, super powerful telephoto lens.

And so when I saw that shot, I was
like, wow, that's an amazing lens.

And, uh, I'm, I'm sure that's
not what we were meant to be

thinking in that moment, but,

Rob: The cinematographer
will be very happy with you.

Kevin: The bridge was there, and I don't
even know if that's the real bridge

because it had the solar panels that we've
come to know from this far off Star Trek

future that that bridge is now because
there's no cars to drive across that

they've covered it with solar panels.

And that's been true since, uh,
the era of Star Trek: Picard.

Um, and so seeing them here,
the cinematography looked so

analog in a satisfying way.

It made it look like a real shot
shot through real glass, with real

heat haze warping the bridge in the
background, and yet the solar panels

were there on it, and it, it, ugh,
it just in that one like split second

shot, I thought there's the money.

That like, this is not
obviously a CG shot.

They have gone above and beyond
to replicate the realities

of shooting things for real.

And yet there's no way those,
those, uh, solar panels exist in

anything but a computer rendering.

How much of this is real?

I can't tell.

And that's how I knew we
were in for another episode.

Just like the premiere of this series, it
felt like the production values went back

up to that, uh, cinematic quality that we
got in the series opening in episode one.

Rob: There was definitely some great
landscape, uh, you know, space shots,

especially of our, um, our, uh, ship
graveyard and our main focus, uh, the,

you know, the abandoned starship that our,
our most of our adventure takes place on.

But just a bit of a side note, it is
quite interesting, like those landmarks

that have become recognition points in
science fiction futuristic representation.

So in America you've got two
sides of the, of, of the country.

If you're in.

If you're in the East Coast, then
you've definitely got, you know,

a crumbled, uh, Statue of Liberty.

Uh, in the old days, um, it was the Twin
Towers would be showing off in future.

Kevin: I don't think we've ever seen
the Statue of Liberty in Star Trek.

I, I wonder what it would look like.

Rob: It'd be great to see.

Yeah, because we only when we get to
Earth really, um, when we do outside

shots of, it's always of San Francisco
and that Golden Gate Bridge is there.

I was watching the um, YA films, uh,
Maze Runner and they're set on the West

Coast and they've got a dystopian future,
you know, post-apocalyptic war zone.

But Golden Gate Bridge
remains are still there.

It's these iconic pla like if there's any,
anything post-apocalyptic in Australia,

they've always got the crumbled,
uh, Harbor Bridge or Opera House.

So yeah, a diversion there to
see how that is an iconic side

of the other side of America.

If you wanna show you're on, you know,
the, the East coast, they've gotta have

the Statue of Liberty in there somewhere.

Kevin: We get the, uh, the establishment
of the mission to the USS Miyazaki's,

um, crumbling remains, and, uh, a bit
of talk in, in the turbo lift about

the comic book that is at the heart of
all of this, Tales from the Frontier.

Uh, I, they must be getting ready
to make a, a buyable prop version of

that comic as, as a connoisseur of
Star Trek comics myself, know, Rob,

I looked at that comic and I went,
that looks just like Star Trek comics.

Rob: You should, you should
be able to purchase that with

your warp drive pajamas and

Kevin: any minute

Rob: yeah, snuggle up
for a wonderful read.

Um, yeah, I love that.

Developing of the lore.

It's a very, um, you know, uh, Mariner
type, um, fans of the lore, of the

history of Star Trek within the universe.

And so that type of play
plays out well here.

'Cause they're cadets as well.

there would be maybe a little bit geeking
out over, uh, Star, Star Trek history.

Kevin: We had the red team go to
the bridge of the Athena and take

their posts and, uh, it was good
to see our cadets on the bridge,

uh, for, for an actual mission.

Rob: And, and our crew of the Athena,
who we had time to be introduced to

on episode one, nowhere to be seen.

Kevin: Given the day off.

Yeah, I the, the, the, uh, the
budget did not stretch that far.

Rob: Yes.

We only have a you know, a
certain amount of expenses.

And that was on CGI and camera lenses.

Kevin: Yeah, you expected the moment
things went sideways and they called

the lockdown, that those, you know,
the proper officers should have

appeared from the turbo lifts relieved
everyone, but they didn't, exactly.

Rob: Nope.

Nope.

We were, we were stuck with our cadets on,
uh, yeah, being attacked on two fronts.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, something I marked was the moment
that the shuttle carrying the, uh,

the blue team, the cadets over to
the Miyazaki as it was like docking,

the fact of its arrival at the
Miyazaki was announced not by a bridge

crew member, but by the computer.

Uh, the computer voice kind of
reported it to the captain and

Ake said, Thank you, computer.

And, uh, that was the first of some
prominent like computers talking

to our characters, which feels like
a signifier of this 32nd century.

This along with, uh, programmable
matter that we got to see the little

sheet of, bringing life support back.

These things, these bits of 32nd century
technology were neat to see, and it's

what we've chosen as our topic for the
second half of this episode, is like

when, when our characters find themselves
in conversation with a computer.

Rob: So stay tuned for that.

Kevin: But, uh, yeah, things
did go sideways pretty quickly.

We had the Furies with
their, like phasing masks.

Um, they were described as, uh, I noted
it, alien human hybrids, which felt to me

like a bit of a lazy, uh, turn of phrase,
given that that could describe pretty

much half the characters on this show.

Rob: Yes, we, yeah.

And especially 'cause it was clear that
they, yeah, like you said, phasing in

and out of time, that would've been a
fascinating thing to lead with as opposed

to, oh, they're alien human hybrids.

Um, so like everybody.

Kevin: Yeah.

Over, over the course of the episode,
I think they, I think they just didn't

wanna tip their hand too quickly.

They eventually kind of explained that
they were, they were part bat creature.

They, I forget the name of it, but they
referenced the bat creature and they said

that they are partly descended from that.

And it, this was given to justify their
sensitivity to sound and ultimately,

uh, Tarima's, um, superpower scream
that popped all their heads at

Rob: Of course.

And a little bit of, you know,
uh, blood sucking, cannibalistic,

you know, vampiric type

Kevin: Yeah.

A little bit of vampire stuff on.

But yeah.

Um, the, the effects of their faces
moving were, were suitably creepy.

Um, I was not sure what the practical
effect of it was supposed to be,

but it made them scary along with
the guttural voices, screeching

guttural voices that they put on.

Rob: Yeah, they're a little bit, they're
a little bit Mouth of Sauron little bit,

um, uh, ring wraiths, Lord of the Rings.

Kevin: Absolutely.

Yes.

Rob: Got that element from them.

So yeah, they're a
fascinating sort of like

prototype of a, of a species.

They're sort of like, instead of just
being like in foundation, they were

generic baddie, but there was enough there
that they can develop further to see what

will, you know, what could happen to them.

Kevin: We had, uh, Tomov, uh, introduced
and sacrificed in in very short order.

Rob: Sort of like the, uh, a, a,
um, lecturer from the war college

who's there to guide them through.

And he had a ni nice personality.

He was a more than just a red
shirt, uh, but ultimately he

made the ultimate sacrifice.

Kevin: Yeah.

He had the, he had the, the bearing
of like a marine, the who, who would

be mean, but actually he seemed nice.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

And, and he had the measure of
the cadets he was working with.

It wasn't sort of like, you know,
because Caleb does have a, a sense

of sort of like dominating and, and
taking over, but he seemed to be put

in place quite well, which I, which
was, you know, good structuring for

a character who's quite disposable.

And so when that loss hits, that's,
that was a case of, oh, that's a shame.

That's good writing in Star Trek, if
you, you know, to give a character

a moment, um, not heavy handedly,
and so that when their sacrifice is

made, you, you feel that in a poignant
sense of that, that's good work.

And it hasn't been often
done that well in Star Trek.

So for it to be done here,
that's something that

Starfleet should hold up high.

Kevin: Yeah.

A better than average red shirt death.

Go along with that for sure.

What did you make of the
interior of the Miyazaki?

That corridor with the, with the
neon rings sort of, and, and, and

between them, it just seemed like
stretched, uh, pieces of plastic.

It, it felt to me like on the one
hand, visually interesting and unusual.

On the other hand, it did not feel
like a Starfleet ship to me, and I

was like, oh, there's probably some
budget savings happening there.

They just stretched some rubber between
rings and therefore saved themselves

having to build an actual corridor that
distinct from the other Starfleet ships.

Rob: Yes.

While you spend your time looking
at uh, uh, camera lens shots and

effects and where that comes from.

I'm there going, and I think
it's through this podcast.

I'm there going, right,
which reuse set is this?

Have they taken a section here?

Kevin: Yeah, I, I thought they could
have very easily like redressed

in, uh, a, a Strange New Worlds
Enterprise corridor like that.

I guess they have the problem of
these two, what are meant to be very

distant timeframes from each other.

And then if you reuse some corridor from
Strange New Worlds as if it is a 32nd

century ship, you're almost like putting
the lie to the fact that these things

are, uh, centuries apart from each other.

Rob: Yes.

So yeah, you're damned if
you do, damned if you don't.

But the choice was, um, did, didn't
come across as well realized as that.

That's my diplomatic answer.

Def, definitely,

Kevin: Okay.

I mean, once the bat creatures arrived,
it did make it feel claustrophobic creepy.

That really dark background.

But yeah it it, felt unusual.

Like, is this ship made of like
floating rooms with, with like

rubber tunnels between them?

It, it kind of was a weird visual.

Rob: Hmm, I agree.

I agree.

Kevin: Uh, but yeah, then it was all
kicking off and, um, the plan to have,

uh, the Venari Ral in the form of, uh,
Nus Braka come to the rescue was hatched.

Rob: It's good to have, uh, Paul Giamatti
back and I think a little bit earlier

than we were both kind of expecting.

Kevin: Yeah, I thought we wouldn't
see him until the end of the season.

So a a a heaping spoonful
of him here was great.

I they really emphasized the
tic-tac toe in the side of his head.

Don't know, I either didn't catch it in
the first episode or it was new here.

Rob: I did not catch it at all, so
I was assuming it was something new.

'cause they were definitely
going, look at this.

Do you see this?

Kevin: There was one shot of the side
of his head that was so close that

I felt like I could see the netting
that the, uh, the appliance, uh,

artist had used to put the hair on.

And I was like, Ooh,
that just a little too

Rob: Little too close.

Little too close.

Um, but yes, we had an extension and
an enhancement of our, uh, interplay

between Holly Hunter and Paul Giamatti.

Kevin: Holey moley.

Rob: Um, yeah, just what we got
from episode one and what we're

getting now is just even more, uh,
a play of two masters, um, working

within, uh, a television format.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, Giamatti has a way of chewing
the scenery without it breaking

the, suspension of disbelief that
it, it's big and small at the same

time, uh, in such an amazing way.

Rob: There's something
about Paul Giamatti.

He's such a, uh, I don't wanna
use the word working class,

but he is a jobbing actor.

Like had, like, for decades.

He has had bit parts in many
different types of films.

So therefore he has had to be able to
adjust to, you know, action roles, to

well action films, to broad comedies, to,
um, murder mysteries, to all these type.

You know, he's, he's
appeared in Downton Abbey.

He's, so that ability to shift range
and shift genre is, um, is a skill

Kevin: There's zero ego about it.

You feel like he is, he is completely,
um, willing to go with whatever the,

the particular show he is on is.

He's, he's here for whatever
is kind of the sense.

Rob: And he's a true chameleon in the
sense that he can adjust perfectly.

Like there, there are some actors
who aren't working as consistently in

all these genres in supporting roles.

So when you see them in different
genres as a, it's, it's hard to adjust.

But he has slipped in so beautifully
into this sci-fi world, which we've

never really seen him in before.

We know he's a huge Star Trek fan and
playing such a, you know, theatrical

villain at the same height of say, a
Christopher Plummer or a Ricardo Montalban

type of theatricality, but still grounding
it, um, is an impressive sight to see.

Kevin: Yeah.

Bringing that big a presence
to the screen without breaking

everything around him yeah.

An impressive feat for sure.

And Holly Hunter, Ugh.

Uh, when, when Nus Braka turns
his back to her and she allows

like the cracks to show.

Those mo, like he's been, he's been, uh,
he's been monologuing about the death

of her son for what feels like five
minutes, and then he finally turns his

back to her and you just see her like,
clench and, and break just for a moment.

And, uh, I was like, wow, there it is.

That, that is the best acting
I've ever seen in Star Trek.

Rob: Oh, and that's the thing.

It's that two different styles and
two different, I mean, it's what

the characters require, but to have
that largeness of, and largeness

in many ways is a, is an insult.

I really don't want to use that way, word.

Actually, for Giamatti.

The, the, the grandness of his performance
is, is, is so pitch perfect, but you can't

have Holly Hunter hit that same level.

So to have her quiet, her stillness,
her facial expressions, her eye

movement, that, that, that contradiction
or, yeah, juxtaposition, if you

want to use favorite word, of
minimal and grand is just a perfect

balance, perfectly played out here.

Kevin: Yeah.

Giamatti's, I see why you don't wanna
use largeness, because I feel like

when you play something that big
often it's no longer in your control.

And he is still in, in such control
of, in instrument, even though

it's playing that loudly, it's

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: But yeah, Holly Hunter's,
Holly Hunter's soft, uh,

counterpoint was incredible.

In, in a scene when she gets called
away and she shares her insights

of, I knew if I let him talk long
enough, he'd eventually slip up.

This is what I'm seeing.

And yet, as she's analyzing rationally,
there is a tear hanging from her

bottom eyelid because of the emotional
impact of what she's just been through.

It is incredible.

Rob: What she has to, what she has
to endure to get the information.

That's it even more heartbreaking.

She goes through all
that and she still fails.

Kevin: and yet hurt at the same time.

Rob: Exactly.

And to have that satisfying moment at the
end where he finally lets down all his

guard and, you know, there's that relish
of, you know, uh, mean-spirited diplomacy.

Um, but at the end he just strips it
all back and just goes, I just hate you.

And don't really hear that
type of stuff in Star Trek.

You hear, you know, many different
levels of, you know, unless it's, you

know, you know, the powerful of Kirk
revealing his racism and prejudice

towards the Klingons, Let them die.

That's a similar level of I just
hate you and I will, you know, I

will do everything in my power to
tear you apart and tear you down.

It's, yeah, it, it, it takes
it to a different, uh, level

performance wise and, and story-wise,
which is, we have now shifted.

I don't see we can go back to, it'll be as
it used to be done in eighties, nineties

television when you had 25, 26 episodes.

I know we've talked about that before.

So that's your bingo ticked off,
but with such a limited number

of episodes, 10, we've got, yes.

That I don't us, yeah.

I don't see us shifting back
into a lighter, you know,

monster of the week type episode.

This, the, the tone has

Kevin: I feel like they might have just
have room for one more light episode.

Feel like in the same way as
Best of Both Worlds in TNG

had to be followed by Family.

It was the third part of that two-parter
where normality was re-earned, the,

characters had a moment to heal.

I feel like we're gonna need at least
an episode where these characters have

a moment to heal from what they've been

So that's, that's episode seven.

Then you got episode eight to do I think
almost anything you want with, and then

nine and ten to finish off the season.

Rob: Yeah, because we still have a lot
of scars, obviously, um, to, to heal.

We have characters in, you
know, almost self-induced comas.

We've got, you know, holograms
that have been, you know,

almost shattered beyond repair.

Kevin: Yeah.

Oh.

Hearing SAM call for Jay-den.

Help me Jay-den, at the end.

Oh, it's hit, it's hitting me
now, uh, just talking about it.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin: Uh,

Rob: And Kyle being, uh, uh, injured.

I was there worried that like he's,
there was gonna be some, maybe some

infection or something like that, but

Kevin: No, I think he's, I think, scarred
emotionally from the fact that, uh, B'Avi

jumped in front of him and took the shot.

I he's gonna feel a bit of
survivor's guilt from that.

Rob: And that, yeah, B'Avi, B'Avi's
sacrifice was a, a wonderful, um, gut

Kevin: Never say out loud
the needs of the many.

Rob: It's the Spock

Kevin: as you quote it, you're done for.

Rob: You done for, you're done for,
and you love comics, so we've gotta

have, you know, that value there.

Wonderfully performed.

And we've seen him a little
bit in, um, earlier episodes.

So to have that background character.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Again, even more of a,
a elevated red shirt.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, he was, uh, yeah, he did a good job.

Um,

Red shirt in the sense that they gave
us just enough reason to like him

before killing him in the same episode.

Uh, but yes, he, he will be
remembered fondly, B'Avi.

Rob: And good Vulcan, good
Vulcan acting, I believe.

Kevin: Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Vulcan comic nerd is a great
twist that we got to see here.

Rob: And I think it does fit within
the Vulcan culture to be a book nerd.

Yeah.

Kevin: But zooming out, like this,
this episode did a remarkable job,

I think, of building up multiple
layers of false confidence for us.

There's this particular scene where
they, they go through not just the

plan, but the three plans they have
to out, out, uh, play the Furies.

They, they're like, okay, we'll get the
sonic weapon, and in case that doesn't

work, Tarima Sadal's telepathy will
help the cadets get the singularity

drive online and, and disrupt the
field so we can beam them away.

And on top of that, we've already got
a lead on detecting their cloaked ship.

So Genesis, uh, on, on, on
the bridge, we'll detect them.

And so we've got three
aces up our sleeves.

How can we lose?

Is how we're meant to feel.

And then one by one, they fail.

Rob: This, this did, this episode
did feel like the, The Dark Night, or

Skyfall in a sense of, um, the, not
only were the bad guys a step ahead,

they were four or five steps ahead.

So, and makes it even more impressive or a
little bit could be pushed for credulity.

Um, but that sense of we have
three backup plans and the bad

guys have all of those covered.

Kevin: And all to get something, question
mark, off of this space station, J-19

Alpha, where the highly classified
kind of technology is researched.

Rob: I don't want to hear,
uh, any, uh, section 31 type

of, uh, hidden fortress areas.

But it'll be interesting to, yeah,
find out if we find out more about

what this space was and, um, what
remnants of, uh, the history of

Star Trek is, uh, connected to it.

Kevin: Yeah, I'm almost hoping
it's not connected to some history.

I'm hoping it's something brand new.

Uh, 'cause I think this series is
working best when it is creating new.

I mean, we liked our homage to Deep Space
Nine, but even then, even that was done

in a forward looking, I thought, way.

It was not so nostalgic
that it was wallowing.

And so I hope that this has, this
has to do with Nus Braka's final

message where he promises one more
thing to, to Nala, I owe you this.

And, uh, we don't know what this is in.

Uh, presumably it is, uh, something
to do with whatever has been

stolen from the space station.

Rob: And possibly Caleb's mum!

Kevin: Can't wait to see where it goes.

Rob: Yeah.

Four more episodes to go.

Um, I think this was a good shift in tone.

We still have space for the, um,
you know, the ramifications of

what's happened and then possibly
a, little lighter affair before we

bring it home with our, I presume
our, uh, two episode season finale.

Kevin: Yeah.

Presumably maybe, maybe, maybe not.

We'll Um, what did you think of, uh,
Tarima's superpower, uh, unleashed?

Rob: Look.

Yes.

The one I was, I was a little
bit awkward with the extended,

uh, sauciness of the opening.

Um, I mean, I, it's weird.

I'm the one who wanted to bring up the
sex episodes in, uh, Star Trek, but I, I

feel much more comfortable with some of
the lines of, they feel awkward about it.

And now I'm like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.

You're leaning into it now?

Okay.

Um, now I'm getting my p prune on.

Prune on?

My prude on, sorry.

Don't wanna get those words mixed up.

Kevin: Yeah, I, I, I think these
characters are young enough, and we are

old enough, that I felt like I should
not be watching what I'm watching.

This is not for

Rob: But also the way it was shot, the
l the, the slow motion lingering thing

didn't even come across, it did, for
me it didn't come across as anything

alluring or arousing or titillating.

It was quite labored.

Um, and like the reactions of both the
actors who have been doing very, very

good, they're very good actors, but
their looks looked a bit bored and tired.

And I'm there going, right, okay.

I want chemistry between these people.

But yes, old men looking at young people.

I did feel a bit, um, maybe I
should be watching something else.

Kevin: When I rewatch this episode,
I'll skip over the first five minutes.

Rob: Okay, we're at the flowers.

I can get that sense.

Um, yeah, there's been a, a nice balance
with her superpowers in well of enough

information, but not too much, to go
she has abilities that, uh, need to be

controlled so they can pretty much go,
these are the powers that we need that

are convenient for the plot, so we can

Kevin: Yeah, a little worried that
she's gonna be able to do anything and

everything that any given plot needs.

I kind of like the fact that they tied,
they tied her scream at the end to the

bats, to her father's loss of hearing.

Uh, that it, it is at least specific
and related enough that I feel like

she is not a generic superhero.

She has this powerful psychic
scream that she can do, and

is not entirely in control of.

And, and that feels at least
narrow enough that it's not gonna

be a, a plot device of the week.

Rob: Yeah, I'm trying to figure
out how I feel about that.

I'm a little bit torn about her being the
cause of her father's deafness, and does

that take away from the representation
of just having, you know, it does,

uh, having, having a character with a
disability on screen doesn't need to

be connected to something traumatic

Kevin: Yeah, I see that for sure.

Rob: I, I'm not sure how

Kevin: a shame to lose.

Rob: Yeah.

A part of me was a bit, oh, okay.

That's a cute tie in.

But then there's a part of me
going, do I, do we just, would I

Kevin: the, are the only deaf people
in Star Trek, the ones that are

irreparably destroyed by this superpower?

Do we lose that
representation in this future?

Yeah.

Rob: As opposed to just having,
there, there are people who are,

you know, in this position, they
could be born that way, you know?

Uh, anything like that.

I'm not sure.

I haven't decided in my
mind where I sit with it.

It's just something where it, it came up.

Kevin: I, I heroic work done by the actor
playing her brother Ocam Sadal, kind

of being the, I thought the, the little
monologue he has of Oh, that, that record,

that file is inaccurate and out of date.

And, uh, this is, this is the deal.

And she actually kind
of did it him a favor.

I was learning trumpet that week.

The, the, the bit of
comedy in there as well.

I thought it was, it was pitch perfect.

It, it really worked in the moment to
kind of sell this absurd sci-fi idea.

Rob: He is a great addition to the cast.

He has been able to do that balance
of be, you know, the annoying one, the

Kevin: Yeah.

The other week he said, I'm a joiner.

It's my fatal flaw.

And I thought that is just a funny
one line and, and it has nothing to

do with anything, but it delighted me.

Rob: And he did have some heavy lifting
this week and it wasn't jarring.

So that's a credit to him to be able to
still get a bit of a, uh, a joke in there,

but still true to character, but not take
away from, uh, the drama of that scene.

So that, that was some,
that was some nice play.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, anything else you wanna cover off in

Rob: No, I, I, the one thing I did
want to, you know, we've celebrated

the, the grimness of the episode.

It was a failure, an abject failure
on all accounts and the fact that

Kevin: It was a failure hidden
inside, a bunch of presumed

successes and overconfidence.

Uh, so good.

Rob: Yeah, there was maybe, maybe a
one little bit about Ake's disdain and

look down and how that has played to
going, you think you're better than me?

You, and you haven't had
to fight for anything.

You don't know what it really is like
out there in this, that type of, um.

You know, that balance of, uh,
philosophies on life and, you know,

who's the true villain type of element.

There were parts of that in there
within, uh, all the gloriousness of,

uh, Hunter and Giamatti's scenes.

Kevin: I wanna believe that Nustopher was
an ad-lib by Paul Giamatti, Nus is short

for Nustopher, um, ridiculously funny.

All right, so the, the thing that
sparked for me this episode was the

efforts by the cadets on the bridge
of the Miyazaki to kind of talk, talk

the ship's computer into understanding
that its crew is dead and that it is in

a new crisis and it needs to respond,
and their success in doing that.

It made me think, well, yeah, there,
like as long as there has been Star

Trek, there have been computers that
can talk back to our, ship's computers

that can talk back to our crews.

And over the decades they have
become more and more sentient.

And there have been moments
where that has been relevant to

the show or the plot at hand.

Um, pretty clear that the 32nd
century features ships', computers

that are more sentient and in, in
this case, have broken, uh, broken

personalities than ever before.

But, um, I wanted to look back at, at
what other examples we have of ships

having personalities or the computer
specifically having some kind of

personality or personal interaction
with, with our, our characters.

Um, so I've got a pretty
early one, uh, from TOS, Rob.

Rob: I've got one from after TOS.

It's an episode we've kind
of talked about before.

So, um, you bring up yours and
then we can sort of like touch on

mine and springboard into a deeper
conversation in the next one.

Kevin: Cool.

Throughout TOS, the computer most of
the time was just buttons and lights.

But in a, in a court proceeding like a
court martial or when someone is being

given a deposition or something, often the
computer voice in a very mechanical tone

would read out records and things like
that, uh, for our characters to be given

a, a bit of a, a, a, uh, exposition dump.

But one episode came to mind where it
changed a little bit, and this is season

one, episode 21, Tomorrow is Yesterday.

Is a great episode.

It's actually kind of, when I
re-watched it, I realized it's kind

of a prototype for Star Trek IV,
because in this episode our crew goes

back in time to the present day where
the show was actually being made.

And, uh, they have a little
adventure in present day.

And the entire challenge to our
characters is how do we get ourselves

back home without accidentally
changing the past and erasing our

future, which is very Star Trek IV.

Rob: Very George and Gracie!

Kevin: And it is comic in the
same way that Star Trek IV is.

There's a lot of like how absurd our
straight laced, uh, Starfleet characters

are when brought into an everyday context.

And Kirk is arrested on, uh, by
security on a military base and they

have him sat in a chair and they say,
is this a uniform you're wearing?

And Kirk goes This little old thing?

I just threw it on this morning.

It, it, it has got all of that
going on in it way back here in

season one of the original series.

Um, so yeah, it's a great one, but
mixed in with this early semi comic

episode, of and, and a time travel
story, there is a tiny detail that has

nothing to do with anything, and it is
the ship's computer on the Enterprise.

Um, early in this episode, the Enterprise,
which appears in low earth orbit and

is spotted by a military jet, they,
they accidentally crush the military

jet with their tractor beam and have to
rescue the pilot by beaming him aboard.

And so he is the Gillian
Taylor of this story.

This is Captain Christopher who, uh,
walks around wide-eyed and, and, uh,

is stunned by Spock's pointy ears.

But once he finds his bearings,
he joins Kirk and Spock in Kirk's

quarters where they talk about
what's gonna happen to him.

Is he gonna stay aboard, or does
he have to be returned home?

Now that he's aware of the future,
is that gonna be a problem?

And while they're doing this,
they're consulting the record tapes

and Kirk's computer speaks in a
uncharacteristically warm tone.

It is flirting with Captain Kirk.

Uh, he, uh, uh, he is shocked
by this, and, and Spock who is

there kind of rolls his eyes like,
oh, we still haven't fixed this.

And it is revealed that the last place
they put in for repairs was a planet,

quote, dominated by women, unquote,
where they decided that the ship's

computer needed more personality, and
to quote Spock, of course it should

have a female personality, unquote.

And so the the gag here is that the
ship's computer has been feminized

too much and is now flirting with
the captain and is very emotional.

Spock says, and it has an
unfortunate tendency to giggle.

And it's, it's all very
cringey and doesn't well.

But it is the first example I could find
of the, uh, the ship's computer taking on

a personality as a, as a prominent point.

Kirk uh, does a log where he tries
to get the computer to behave.

He says, uh, maintenance note, uh,
please log my recommendation that

my computer's personality issue
be resolved or it be scrapped.

And, Kirk goes compute.

And the computer goes
computed as it is hurt.

So yeah, it is all very, uh, it
is all very silly and does not,

uh, it is not something to be
proud of by today's standards.

But it was prominent at the time.

This episode, one of the first, if
not the first, written by DC Fontana,

who is still, um, who is still Gene
Roddenberry's secretary at the time.

There's some memos I was able to find
around this time where they're joking

about, ha how this feedback about the
script should, should never fall into

the hands of the writer, the very
talented writer who wrote it, they

recommended it be kept with Gene's
secretary for safekeeping, they're talking

about, but not quite acknowledging in
writing that that's the same person.

Uh, funny stuff.

Um, yeah, they, there was, uh, there
were people who thought that that,

uh, that personality stuff from the
computer didn't fit in this episode.

Bob Justman at the time wrote, I
seriously doubt that this, this

computer voice routine has value
for us in this type of story.

The story we're attempting to
tell here should be completely

credible to our audience.

I think therefore, that this amusing
side play tends to distract from

the believability of our tale.

But, uh, Gene L. Coon, uh, who is the head
writer of the show at the time, disagreed.

And it went ahead.

Rob: went ahead.

There we go.

Thank you for those, uh, little, uh,
drops of, uh, historical information.

Kevin: Sure.

Yeah.

Uh, good one to watch, I think, yeah.

Star Trek IV is a very kind of welcoming
first Star Trek to show people, and in

the same way, Tomorrow is Yesterady,
I think, works as a, as a, a rarely

sighted entry point for the series.

Rob: Wonderful, wonderful stuff.

Well, I'm gonna jump ahead to an
episode we've talked about a couple

of times on this show, so we don't
need to divulge into it too much, but

I'm definitely looking at, uh, star
Trek, the animated series, season two,

episode three, The Practical Joker,

Kevin: Oh, of course.

Rob: where of course, uh, going through
an ion storm of some kind of, uh, uh,

trying to avoid Romulan ships, the,
uh, the, the Enterprise itself and the

ergo the computer connected with it,
uh, affected in some way and start to

run practical jokes against the ship
and they become more and more serious.

Um, how they can get, you know, um,
boot polish on a, a magnifying glass

for a Spock to come up with the
rims around his eyes is remarkable.

Uh, we also have the introduction
of the Rec Room, or which it will

become the holodeck and, uh, our three
of our crew are trapped in there.

Um, but yes, there is communications.

We have loud cackles and laughter from
the computer and, uh, discussions of what

they are doing back and forth, directly
communicating with, uh, the computer.

Uh, uh, Spock and, uh, Kirk are trying to,
um, uh, talk it down from its behavior.

Kevin: Yeah, it's a good one.

Uh, I, it's, uh, it's definitely
leaning into the silliness,

like this is a comic beat again.

It's, it's interesting to me that
both of these early examples of what

if the computer gained a personality
was a source of comedy for show here?

Yeah.

Rob: And how they, the justification
behind getting to that point.

So whether it be specific programming
from a women's dominated colony, or in

this, going through a storm, so there's
an effecting of the circuitry there.

Whereas of course nowadays it's all
artificial, artificial intelligence.

We've got the word for it.

We've got, you know, the
synthetic brain that is created.

So the terminology has changed as science
has evolved, is a great way to watch.

Great way to watch.

That's why Dr. Who and Star Trek are
great examples of science fiction because

it, because they've both been going 60
years, um, we can see how they've evolved

storytelling and, and introducing of
characters or plot points or whatever,

through the development of science.

We can see that over a 60 year
period, which is fascinating.

Kevin: Yeah.

And it continues to evolve into
The Next Generation, which is the

other episode I wanted to bring

Rob: Nice lead

Kevin: way at the end
of The Next Generation.

Uh, this is TNG, season seven, episode 23.

three episodes before All Good Things…
And it was one of the last things they did

as a story of the week sort of episode.

Um, the behind the scenes on this
episode, which is entitled Emergence,

uh, talks about how Brannon Braga
was like, we wanted to do one last

holodeck episode, and we weren't really
sure, we thought maybe a, a big Dixon

Hill finish or something like that.

But what they ended up creating here
was what if the holodeck was the

imagination of the USS Enterprise
as it starts to gain sentience.

Rob: Ah.

Kevin: So very much like the ion
storm that you just, uh, talked

about in The Animated Series.

This episode, uh, before the start,
uh, sees the Enterprise weathering

a quote, magnascopic storm in
some random sector of space.

And, at the start of this episode,
our crew starts to notice malfunctions

on board the ship, uh, unexplained,
uh, things done by the computer.

Uh, this starts with a scene in the
holodeck where Data is practicing a

scene from The Tempest, uh, as Prospero.

uh, Picard is giving him notes
on how the lighting is too dim.

And then they almost get run over
by the Orient Express, a train that

suddenly appears, uh, unexpectedly
in, in this Shakespearean setting.

And that's just the first mystery.

The ship jumps to warp unexpectedly
later on, and then they look back at the

sensor logs, they realize that that jump
to warp saved the ship from a disaster

that would've otherwise occurred.

And then, uh, pretty quickly they LaForge
discovers that the ship is gradually

growing these little multicolored nodes.

They, they look like tangles of neon
lighting, if, if, uh, you can imagine

that, and they're hidden behind the walls.

They're, they're connecting parts of
the computer to other parts of the

computer that don't normally connect to
each other, and they gradually put the

pieces together and go, you know what?

I think the ship is, is building
its own nervous system and

gaining sentience in the process.

There is a, uh, an observation lounge
meeting where they talk about emergent

properties, that, that consciousness
in humans and, and humanoids is not

directly explainable as a combination
of their physical attributes.

It is a property that emerges from
the complexity of that system.

And our characters agree that, well,
you know, when you look at a certain

way, the Enterprise has a brain and
it has sensors and it has the ability

to reproduce with its replicators.

And so maybe consciousness, uh, with
the help of this, uh, space storm

might just be an emergent property
of the complexity of the ship.

Um, they, they end up going
to the holodeck to try to

understand what the ship wants.

And the holodeck has got like six
programs running simultaneously.

So there's like a, a guy, a guy
in a suit of armor, uh, using

scissors to cut paper dolls.

There's a gangster who, uh, wants,
uh, a gold brick for some reason.

There's, there's all these different
characters with inscrutable goals and

there, and many of them are working on
putting puzzle pieces together on a table

of this, this puzzle that has a picture of
one of the nodes that I mentioned earlier.

And, um.

This is where this, this episode for me
kind of falters is when we get to the

stage of, we kind of understand what might
be going on, what should we do about it?

The, the remaining 30 minutes of this
episode is really just our characters

walking around going, what are we doing?

What do you want?

What did, what is this?

Can we understand it?

No, we can't.

Uh, and our characters are very passive.

The outcome of this episode is really
just that they, they're carried along

a ride until the Enterprise gets a
particular particle from a nebula that

it needs to complete building its, its
own little life form that then flies off.

The end.

All up, our, our, our characters
make one choice of consequence.

It's what they discover when they
figure out the Enterprise needs this

particular particle, they realize
that they are going to run out of life

support before the Enterprise gets to it.

So LaForge has to find a way to get
that particle sooner, and then they

have to convince the characters
on the holodeck to let them try.

But that, that's about it.

It, there's like just this one moment
of, maybe if we go to that nebula,

please let us go to that nebula.

Okay.

If you're, if you promise.

And, and like that is the
only active, uh, act that our

characters have in this episode.

So it, it really kind of is a story
about, uh, a sci-fi thing happening

and our characters being witness to it.

Rob: And that's right
near the end of the whole

Kevin: Yeah, right near the end.

So for those who say that, uh, that
TNG went out on a high and that season

eight would've been glorious, there are
episodes like this one where you can see

them kind of running out of, uh, steam.

Rob: Well, I've, um, jumped ahead
even further and I've gone somewhere

where I have never gone before.

I have gone to Discovery season four.

Kevin: Ooooh!

Yeah.

Rob: We're gonna have a look at Zora.

Kevin: Yeah.

Introduced in Calypso, which was the
Star Trek short that you, uh, you,

you caught up on a little while back.

Rob: Which was good.

And I've re-watched that
again in the lead up to this.

And that pretty much gave an endpoint for
where Discovery had to be, because it's

in caught in a, a intergalactic storm,
abandoned in the middle of nowhere.

Um, there's a, a shipwreck.

Um, uh, uh, crew member, only
survivor is brought on board and he

begins this relationship with, uh,
Zora and getting his memory back and

the, he's got a family left behind.

Kevin: Yeah.

Really interesting, this stuff.

Like Zora introduced here as kind
of a promise about the future, and

then they had to work their way
into justifying it retroactively.

At this point in Discovery, they
had still not lept into the future.

So the idea that that Discovery
would be in this far off future

with a sentient computer named
Zora onboard was a big leap.

Uh, and I, they must have known they were
jumping to the future at the end of season

two by this point, to at least have that,
that sentient computer thing happening.

Rob: Yes.

And so we had that point.

So the final episode is Burnham coming
back, um, a very old, distinguished

admiral and taking the ship into,
uh, the, the nebula or the storm

Kevin: Yeah.

Quite ham-fistedly mentioning.

Yeah.

That Zora has to go and meet someone
named Book, like the fact that

they apparently know what outcome
they're putting, this the, the

Rob: Was a Book or craft?

Craft.

Kevin: right, is Craft.

Rob: Craft.

Yes.

It, it, it, it did seem it
was a very odd choice to do.

But, um, we do know that Zora comes
about through Control, which is the main

baddie in episode in season two, and that

Kevin: right, she's part
of the sphere data stuff.

Rob: sphere data sort of like kicks
her off into this self-awareness

and they develop it through season
three, from what I can remember.

And then season four, they really
explore it in quite a number of episodes.

And it all comes to a head in this
particular episode, which is season

four, episode seven, …But to Connect.

Season four's main focus is Book's Planet.

His home planet is,
uh, is being destroyed.

And for the course of this episode,
they've been try, uh, season, they have

been trying to find the, uh, people
responsible for this, um, seemingly,

you know, natural occurrence, but
it has seemed to be controlled.

There's two stories running here.

It's all springboards from the point
that Zora's finding out all the

information, uh, and has determined where
the location is that this all started.

So these beings that have caused
the destruction of this planet and

is a potential existential threat
to the reformed Federation, um,

they need that information ASAP.

Burnham is very worried
of Book's state of mind.

Book desperately wants to
find out this information.

Zora finds the location, but her decision
is to not give that information because

it is statistically likely that Discovery
would be under threat and she could

not threaten the lives, uh, put her
the lives of her, uh, crew in danger.

So therefore, then the story splits.

Burnham and Book go to the Federation to
plead their case of how is the best way to

deal with this information when it comes.

Um, Book obviously is has a lot of
machinations with other people, uh,

who would like to go attack first,
whereas Burnham is from the let's do a

diplomatic, peaceful exploration first.

We encountered the
representative from Earth.

When Earth is the ex that
we come in and that we wanna

try and get back to the fold.

Um, the Cardassian, slash Cardassian
human, uh, uh, uh, president goes,

oh, I desperately want Earth to
come back into the federation.

It's very much a case of, oh, I
want to get back with that person.

Kevin: That president, uh, as far as we
know, is still president of the Federation

here in, uh, in Starfleet Academy.

And

Rob: We, we, we believe so.

Kevin: When the Admiral says, I'll
have to talk, speak to the president,

that's who he's talking about.

Rob: Exactly.

And so, um, we then cut between Discovery
where we have, uh, David Cronenberg show

up in all his, uh, uh, deadpan glory.

And they are discussing their, um,
the ex, you know, the potential

sentient ness or, or the existence of,
uh, Zora, and what does this imply?

And every character has
their own, um, opinions.

This is a main focus of, uh, we
see very little Tilly in this one.

Not much Saru, a little bit of Saru.

This is mostly the family unit of
Stamets, uh, the doctor and our two young,

uh, human Trill, uh, lovers that have

Kevin: Oh yes.

Rob: Um, and this is that episode
where they split and one of

them has to go back to Trill.

Um, the other one stays, uh,
with um, daddy and daddy.

Um, but Stamets has his own
prejudice towards, uh, Zora.

But through the trial that is being
run, we find out the rules that

Zora has been going by, um, doesn't
comply with, um, the Federation.

However, if they go by the law of, well,
do you wanna become a member of the crew?

He goes, yes, very much so.

Well, if you are assigned a member, you
must follow the chain of command and

therefore you can't just disobey an order.

And Zora goes, well, I will do that.

And the whole point of she feels a part of
the crew and she doesn't want the crew to

die, is something that, uh, and everyone
believes that David Cronenberg character's

gonna sort of like be the one, the bad guy
going, oh, he is gonna destroy, delete.

And he's there going, no, this is a, you
know, a life form and make them a part

of the crew and they'll be an asset, and,

Kevin: It is natural culmination of
the, the trend we're talking about,

that the, the, ultimately a computer
that has gained sentience must choose

to become a member of the crew.

Rob: And there's stuff in
there about nature, nurture.

There's stuff about if you have the
potential to destroy, but don't do it.

Uh, so like Saru, they're going,
I have the, I have the capacity

to, to harm, but I don't do it.

I make that choice.

And just because Zora is, you know, has
the potential to be dangerous and blow up

the ship or whatever with their decision,
doesn't mean that they automatically will.

So Stamets has a turning point
when he realizes Zora's choices

of decisions come from a place of
compassion and, and product, you

know, protect, protectiveness.

Um, it's, it's interesting because this
is an age old science fiction trope.

What is human?

What is humanity?

It's perfectly represented in Spock.

It's perfectly represented in Data.

It's perfectly represented in the Doctor.

We have repeated this over and over
again, even in odo to some small extent,

but from a mechanical, electronic,
you know, robot type of setup.

But it's interesting here because with
what we have done before in the past, we

have a face to put and a, and a figure.

But Zora is just this disembodied voice.

And it's a, it's an interesting balance
to, do you still have that connection

to something, or is it, does it seem,
for me, it felt a little bit forced.

I'm there going, I don't have anything,
and yeah, I don't have anything to grab

onto, uh, this, this disparate voice.

It's something that happened with,
with, I'm bringing up again, Red Dwarf.

Originally Red Dwarf was just
meant to have Holly, the ship's

computer just be a, a, a, a voice.

But, uh, the voice actor, uh,
Norman Lovett, bless him, he said,

well, I wanna appear on screen.

So he was trying to do the
whole convincing, no, you need

to have a face for the voice
so you could see interactions.

So his selfishness to get his face
on screen actually worked in its

favor, because that made it more of
a connection between the crew and,

um, and the voice of the computer.

So it's hard for me to really connect
to Zora here, even though we get a

holo grammatic representation of her
in a wedding dress in, uh, a Calypso.

Um, but yes, that was not only
interacting, but arguing and having a

philosophical discord with a, a computer
about whether they exist or not.

Kevin: Lovely find.

Great to be reminded of that one.

This whole episode is, is smacked
bang in the middle of this issue of

is the, is the computer sentient?

And if so, what does that mean?

Rob: And it, this does come to a, it's
sort of like the, the focal point.

So we've had Zora explored in season
three and elements of this season,

but this is a point where we go, okay,
let's, let's discuss it, not just have it

there in the background or a part of it.

Let's define what Zora is.

Um, and there were parts of
it that I quite had liked.

You know, there's always a drag factor
for me when it comes to Discovery,

Kevin: High praise for
you from a Discovery

Rob: I know

Kevin: gonna ask, jumping back like
just a couple of years now, uh, in

Star Trek time, uh, well, in, in real
time to, to Discovery season four.

I'm curious, what was the
contrast you felt there?

Um, how, how different is it from
something like Starfleet Academy?

Rob: Yeah, I think this episode
in particular felt a lot more like

Star Trek because it had the two
separate A and B plots and, and so

Burnham's role was not as prominent.

The stuff with her in Book was played
out well because there was a great

moment where, um, Book spoke for
the more aggressive strategy and the

President said, we need someone to,
to argue the other side, and Burnham

was the only one who could do it.

So for me, that was a great play of.

Burnham as a character.

And it wasn't, it wasn't, it
wasn't indulging that, which

always kind of annoyed me.

This was a good, balanced episode.

There was so much stuff for Stamets
to do, so much stuff for, um, uh,

uh, his kids and their relationship
and their connection with Zora.

and also the larger play of the
Federation in the far future.

So for me it was, again, those
elements of Discovery, which we

still bleeding into modern Star Trek
of Star Trekky concepts, but more

emotional character driven teen drama.

We had those there.

Kevin: I feel by this point they had
corrected for the, it's all about,

um, Michael Burnham stuff, but now
they were off in the far future.

And, and for me, this is the era where
Discovery was failing by having, um,

abstract, grand, galaxy ending threats
as the, the plot every single episode.

And it made it really hard in a 10
episode series to invest in the characters

because we were never getting any
emotionally impactful, uh, character

building, uh, stories with emotional
stakes for these individuals, as opposed

to the galaxy they were a part of.

Um, and, uh, I, I don't know if any of
that was, was in evidence in this episode

for you or if it, this was an exception.

Rob: It was definitely a case of, um.

We saw more of the rest of the crew,
but it still a specific type of crew.

Like there were members of the Discovery
crew who were there from episode

one, and we didn't see them at all.

But, um, our young human, uh, symbiont
host and, uh, and their Trill, you

know, partner were brought in only
last season, I believe in season three.

So they get a lot of screen time.

And I'm there

Kevin: It was really bizarre that we
don't know enough about our characters.

Let's add more characters,
solution in Discovery.

Rob: And they're playing it like a, oh,
we've known these characters for so long,

but at the end of the episode, one of them
goes back to Trill and I'm there going,

well, we're not building up anything here.

There's no consistency.

Um, I felt very much like uh, Book's
cat who doesn't like, it de definitely

doesn't like Burnham and so it's gone
from, you know, out and out hissing

to just uh, you know, silent disdain.

So there was a lot in there I'd liked.

But yeah, the whole structure of Discovery
is, you know, 'cause I'd only gone to

episode one of season four and I watched
that and I went, I can't do this.

Um, so to come into, you know,
six episodes later, um, there

was some good stuff in there.

There was some good stuff in there.

I have like the odd
occasional Discovery episode.

We did all of season five together

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Rob: and I didn't complain all the time.

Kevin: Thank you for your service, Rob.

Uh, I it be odd watching one of
these episodes out of context because

Rob: It was a lot of me trying
to catch up, um, fill the gaps

and, um, sort of like finish off
sentences because they were missing.

Um, they go, okay, so this means
this here, something's happened here.

Um, but I saw the start of
like Saru with his, uh, soon

to be, uh, uh, uh, later wife.

So there are elements, elements there
I'm seeing and go, all right, so the

'cause by the end of this season,
Earth joined the federation again.

And so there's parts of going, all
right, I can see how it all goes.

It doesn't inspire me to go and watch
the rest of it, but I can see it.

Kevin: Cool.

Awesome, well, um, onto the next one.

I, I, I don't know, uh, I hope, I guess.

What I'm hoping for next week
is a Family type episode.

A let's come back and take stock
and heal from this, this thing

that has happened to us all.

Rob: We did have our team separated.

We had the bridge crew,
we had the, uh, away team.

So have them reconnect,

Kevin: Yeah.

Reconnect and compare notes.

Rob: Uh, compare notes and heal
wounds and see if they can come

out stronger and, uh, and, and, uh,
and more fierce than ever before.