Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome to Subspace Radio.

I am Rob, and with me
as always is Kevin Yank.

How are you sir?

Kevin: I'm very well, and you?

Rob: Oh, I am very excited because I
get to talk about Star Trek with you.

And more specifically, I get to talk
about the most recent episode of

Starfleet Academy Series Acclimation
Mil, which is, uh, episode five of

the new series Starfleet Academy.

Uh, and join us, shall you?

Will you?

On this little exploration of the
episode, and then we'll go into a

deep dive, into something deeper,
which, uh, is gonna be a lot of fun.

Boom.

Just

Kevin: Rob, you buried the lede.

This is, this is the Deep Space
Nine episode of Starfleet Academy.

Rob: Just like with lower decks, when
they arrived at Deep Space Nine and

they went around the pylons a number
of times on Lower Decks, we are now

going to talk about Deep Space Nine.

This is a beautiful tribute to, uh,
Deep Space Nine and to its lead,

Benjamin Sisko, specifically Avery
Brooks', wonderful performance.

And, uh, it's always, there's always,
uh, fears or doubts of, uh, or use

of the words fan service or, uh,
things thrown around like that.

But I, um, I think this is a beautiful,
uh, example of how to, uh, continue

on with the lore and the mythology
of your show, to help push forward

a character that you have created
for the current show you are in.

And just shows how wide our world is.

Especially when it comes to Benjamin
Sisko, he has such a ramifications

on a, on a like galactic scale.

Kevin: Yeah, I said, uh, last week
I think, uh, I, or, or whenever

we were talking about the Deep,
the upcoming Deep Space Nine

episode that we knew was coming.

Um.

I said, didn't we just
do that in Lower Decks?

And now looking at the two episodes
together, I can see Lower Decks was a

tribute to Deep Space Nine, but, but Sisko
was conspicuously absent in hindsight.

It was like a, a, a homage to all
of Deep Space Nine except Sisko.

And this one was like, let's correct
that oversight, or maybe not oversight.

Let's go there, to the character and
the actor, to a certain extent, that for

whatever reason, and we can talk about
it, we didn't feel like we could deal

with directly in the Lower Decks episode.

Rob: Exactly.

Um, and this episode was co-written
of course, by, uh, Tawny Newsome

from, uh, Lower, uh, from
Lower Decks fame as Mariner.

Kevin: Reputedly one of Deep
Space Nine's biggest fans.

Rob: That is good to hear.

Let's, uh, get her come out to
Australia at some point and we can

have a deep dive into the seven
seasons of absolute story arcing glory.

Kevin: Well, you have to be a pretty
big fan to not just write an homage,

but to cast yourself in it, not just
as any old Cardassian, uh, academy

teacher, but as Dax themselves.

Rob: A Cardassian slash uh, Trill.

Uh, let's just bury the lede there.

We just gave that, no, no spoilers here.

Kevin: Illa Dax.

Uh, look, I don't know if you wanna start
with this, but this performance was,

I've, I've heard from people who have
said they did not recognize Tawny Newsome

under all that makeup, but I think her,
her voice and her eyes are unmistakable.

Like in the first sentence, uh, it
was like, hang on, I know that voice.

Hang on.

I know those twinkly eyes.

It's Tawny Newsome!

What's going on?

Uh, and that.

And that she turned out
to be Illa Dax is awesome.

It is Canon flexing the, the folks who
have done the math put the Dax symbiont

now at 1200 years old in this episode.

And we have been told in the past
that it was rare for a symbiont

to live more than 800 years.

And so Dax is a special symbiont, but
I think we can all forgive her for

living so long, uh, for getting to
see her teach at Starfleet Academy.

Rob: Well, I was one of those, uh, uh,
uh, uh, sh uh, schleps or schmucks.

I, I did not recognize at all.

Kevin: It was very heavy makeup.

It was, I actually found it
distracting, to be honest.

It's like, Ooh, that's
a little off-putting.

I don't know if it's just 'cause
Cardassians are like d designed

to be a little icky, but, uh,
but yeah, I was like, yeah, this,

she's such a nice, uh, nice actor.

It's shame to bury her
under all of that makeup.

But I guess you, you, you know, you
only get to be a Cardassian once

or twice in your life as an actor.

So here's take the
chance while you got it.

Rob: And especially the, it's a, a break
from the usual Cardassian hairdo if you,

if you, uh, dare me to allow, allow me
to talk about, uh, uh, hair fashion.

Um, instead of the slick back approach,
even with Ziyal, she had it up a

little bit, but it was a, a version of
slickness, but this was all wonderfully

curled and permed and forward.

And it was, you know, very 800
years in the future, uh, on the,

on the pulse of modern fashion.

Um, but yes, nice little reveal at
the end, the hair, uh, uh, behind the

ear to reveal the, the Trill markings.

Kevin: when you go back and watch
it, she is doing such a great Dax.

She's doing the

Rob: Hands behind the back.

Kevin: just the, just the, the
way she speaks and her, her, her

like way of being is extremely
Terry Ferrell Dax, especially.

Rob: Um, so yes.

Um, so let's go back and start, um, the,
with the, the, the top of the episode.

Um, how did you find, um,
this latest episode, SAM?

Kevin: I have found
that it has grown on me.

I think I went in with
really high expectations.

Sam has been this, this kooky
mystery since the start of this,

uh, series and even her name, Series
Acclimation Mil, I went into this

with kind of two expectations.

One is to be taken on a ride by
this kooky mystery of a character,

uh, which we definitely got.

And, but two, that we would, we would
learn some of the mystery behind her.

And I felt that, at least on first
viewing, was less satisfying.

We still don't know what
Series Acclimation Mil is.

Everyone says it with great, like import.

The, her creators say Series Acclimation
Mil, like, and, and it's not quite a name.

It's kind of a designation.

It sounds like Seven of Nine,

Rob: yes.

Kevin: If you will.

And, and, we knew pretty early what
the words seven of nine meant, and

I'm still craving understanding
the words Series Acclimation Mil.

I hope it's not just nonsense,
it's like, um, oh, we're holograms.

We'll just pick three random organic
words and smush 'em together.

That's your name.

If that's the case, I'll
be a little disappointed.

And just overall, this whole
episode, I was kind of like

grasping for tangibles and meaning.

And on second viewing, I kind of have
started to appreciate that that's

not what this episode is about.

Very much, um, along the lines of
SAM's own journey that she admits early

on to Dax that she does not do well
with ambiguity, this episode is about

embracing the mystery and going with
the flow and allowing the ambiguity.

And so, uh, I think it was not
satisfying on first watch, but second

watch, knowing what I was in for,
I got to enjoy the ride a lot more.

So I think it's up there.

It's not quite as strong as
last week's Klingon opus for me.

But, uh, it's up there.

I I, put it in the wins category.

Rob: Yeah, I put it in the
wins as well, but you're right.

Last week's episode had a definite
consistency in tone, in writing, in

storytelling, in uh, performances.

There was definitely a, a harmony there.

Whereas, uh, this is a very
imbalanced episode, but I think the

Kevin: It felt a little all
over the place at times.

But that, that comes from
SAM's character, I feel like.

Rob: but also the way it
was written and presented.

I mean, uh, they throw themself
in deep with our opening couple

of minutes where, you know, you
either live or die by this episode.

It's a lot of business happening.

It's a lot of modern
type stuff that you see.

A lot of graphics on the screen.

A lot of quick cuts, a lot of pauses.

Kevin: With fourth wall breaking, SAM
talking to the audience, seemingly.

Uh, and then you, I think it.

It kind of, um, imparts a bit of
Data's Day, that that old episode of

TNG where Data is is like recording
a, a letter to Bruce Maddox the whole

time, and, and is, is kind of speaking
to the audience through that letter.

Here, you're thinking, oh,
are is she talking to us?

Is she talking to her creators?

Seems to be the natural assumption.

But by the end it's revealed,
she's talking to Benjamin Sisko.

Rob: Yes.

Um, so yeah, the opening was a, a bit
of a rude awakening for me to get into.

I think it was a little bit too
much, uh, style over substance.

So that,

Kevin: You're trying a little hard.

Is that

Rob: little try.

Yeah.

Trying a little too hard.

Kevin: It lost me in the glitter vomit.

Rob: I was just about to bring up
what you thought of glitter vomit, so,

Kevin: Starfleet Academy just
gets a little in its way.

It gets a, a little too far into the
silliness, the goofiness at times.

I'm here for some silly goofiness.

I'm here for Star Trek comedy.

But it has to be grounded in
some sort of believable reality.

And I'm sorry, they, they, they techno
babbled it a little bit, but I don't buy

glitter vomit, and I also don't buy the
Caleb live modifying SAM's program and

accidentally giving her purple hair, even
though they're like, the user interface

was like hair, color, color selector.

And he looked surprised when he
pressed the purple hair button

and turned her hair purple.

And the giant scarf and
the marching band music.

All of that was just kind of a
little too far into the realm of

silliness and like this is only
happening to make the audience laugh.

It does not seem like something
that would realistically happen

in any kind of real reality.

So those, those couple of moments,
there were plenty of other funny

moments in this episode and it all
kind of, I think these over-silly ones

made me start to like s not invest
in the more believable, silly ones.

Like the whole dinner scene with the
deflating fish and, and, and all of that

on second viewing, I really loved it.

I enjoyed it.

I think it's a great character piece.

I think it lets Doctor and
Reno in particular, shine.

And great character building
episode for Kelrec as well.

Uh, like Kelrec's one of my favorite
characters after this episode.

But on first viewing it all
blended in with these, these silly

moments that didn't make sense.

So that I was kind of like arms
crossed going, what is this?

Uh, through a lot of the first
viewing of this, I don't know

if you had a similar experience.

Rob: Um, yeah, I found the, the Kelrec,
uh, B plot, a little bit aimless.

Um, it's always a joy to see,
you know, Picardo being Picardo,

uh, and Tig being, uh, wonderful.

And you know, the more that Holly Hunter
just leans into being, uh, you know,

batshit crazy, um, uh, new variation
of Pelia, uh, especially the British

accent for no apparent reason was,
was some people a grading on that.

I I

Kevin: All alien chancellors
have a British accent.

It's just built into the
universal translator.

Rob: It's, it's canon.

It's canon.

Um, but yeah, so, uh, the stuff about,
you know, Caleb is this as well.

He's, it, it's that he's that
jack of all trades thing, which

is, um, getting a bit tired.

Um, but stuff like the, uh,
the cadets going out to a bar.

I mean, come on.

That is what Starfleet
Academy is all about.

We've seen and heard about, you
know, Picard got stabbed when he

had hair and was at the Academy.

You know, these people who have grown
into their roles of power and position

need to have that reckless side when

Kevin: Yeah, it's the rite of passage.

The, uh, I was young
and blowing off steam.

We needed to get, we needed to give our,
these characters some of those moments.

Rob: Exactly.

Kevin: So are you saying the trope of, uh,
cadets going out and being irresponsible

at a bar is feels right, but it felt
a little random and aimless in this

Rob: Um, no.

It, that was one of the few
good things I really liked.

I liked the bar scene.

I thought that was really good.

And it showed our characters, ah, you
know, they, yes, they are the best

of the best, but they're also kids.

And kids do dumb things and
kids need to let off steam.

And to have SAM, you know,
instantly become 12 drunk, 12

drinks into being drunk, wonderful.

You know, getting into a bar
room fight, that is a rite of

Kevin: They're playing my song!

I guarantee you have never
heard this song before.

It's my song!

Rob: Um, love that.

That, that for me was, that is
why they are doing Starfleet

Academy to do things like that.

And it, and it works beautifully.

Kevin: Great.

It was fun to be out in San Francisco
as well and see like that night skyline.

Nice to see Quark's is still in business
800 years, uh, since we last saw

Rob: And as we know, it's a franchise.

Yes.

So it is franchised right
across the, uh, the, the galaxy.

Um, but yeah, the, the strength of this
episode, the highlight of this episode

is, um, uh, SAM's connection as an
emissary for her, for her people, and

how she connects with Benjamin Sisko.

I mean, I think from episode one, we saw
the, or episode two, we saw the poster

saying whatever happened to Benjamin
Sisko up on the, on the Starfleet wall.

So we knew that was a, a nice

Kevin: It was in one of the early
press photos of like, here's what you

can look forward to from this series.

Like six months out there was a shot,
that shot of SAM looking at that screen.

And I remember at the time going,
oh, that's a, a nice bit of like

random artwork that, you know, they,
they'll tease us with that not picture

of Avery Brooks with that title.

And I was like, oh, that's
a cute bit of set dressing.

Little did I know an entire episode
would be built around that image.

Rob: Amazing.

So, um, that was the real
crux of the, uh, the story.

And that is where this episode shone.

It was absolutely beautifully
written, beautifully performed,

beautifully explored.

Um, and, uh,

Kevin: me, the high points were
the scenes with Jake Sisko.

Rob: I was, I, I, I, I
did want to bury the lede.

I was so looking forward
to talking about it.

Uh, are there a couple of moments
where I got emotional, like, yeah.

I'm not afraid to say I, I
teared up and as soon as Jake

appeared in holographic form.

Beautiful, beautiful scene, and right
near the end as well, when we hear

Avery, um, those type of moments, uh,
and when Dax was revealed, like I was

pretty much in tears from when Dax was
revealed, uh, all the way through to

the final sentence by Avery Brooks.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, Cirroc Lofton did a magnificent job.

Like I was praising Tawny Newsom's
portrayal of Dax, but I think

Cirroc did an an even better job.

Uh, um, I, I have not seen him in
anything since Deep Space Nine,

Rob: He is got his own podcast now to,

Kevin: Yeah, he, he records a, he,
he has a podcast called The 7th

Rule, and they're doing rewatches.

They did all of Deep Space Nine
and into Voyager and so on.

But, uh, so yeah, I, I know him as like
a Star Trek podcaster these days and

that he not just came back to a character
after all these years, not just came

back to acting after all these years.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: Uh.

But that he pulled it off.

And like, I believe, I feel the
connective tissue of that character.

That does feel like a grown up Jake.

And it's, it's played with
such sensitivity and subtlety.

He, he is the wise man that you would
expect Bejamin Sisko's son to be.

It, it makes your heart swell.

It was, it was such a great payoff.

I, uh, yeah.

I could just watch those scenes on loop.

Rob: And especially after seeing an
episode from Deep Space Nine say like

The Visitor, where we have another
actor taking over the role of, you

know, uh, Jake growing old, to see the
actual, you know, actor who is Jake

playing that role now 30 years later.

And to see that, that same sort
of loss, that same type of pride

and love, and it was a gentle,
beautiful, beautiful performance.

And that's one of the joys.

I love the fact that there has been,
you know, you've introduced me to,

you know, the, the comic book where
they have done in some way, uh,

Ben coming back for a little arc
or story or something like that.

But to lean into the fact of no a
thousand years has passed and Ben is

still gone, and so to lean into that
and then to embrace "what we leave

behind" and what Jake has achieved
and what Jake did achieve and what he

was, um, moving on through and working
on, it was just a beautiful moment.

It's, it's, it's interesting
because Deep Space Nine was

that show that was overlooked.

It's amazing that it got through
seven seasons at a time, at a time

where it could do that, where it
was not a, a ratings bonanza, it was

overshadowed by the the flagship.

Um, but could still carry on and finish
its arc in a incredible fashion, but

then be pretty much forgotten and
overlooked for so many decades within

the fandom, not just the wider community.

So that where we can get a Picard
series, where we could get, we

can get appearances from Kate
Mulgrew and all this type of stuff.

The cast and crew of Deep Space Nine,
their impact on this franchise has kind

of been overlooked, so that instead
of getting, you know, a whole series

or spinoff or anything like that, we
get an episode in Starfleet Academy,

which is incredible, but focuses on
the legacy with not even having Avery

Brooks appear, which is a very smart
move, and might be because of his dis,

you know, decision not to come in.

He's very, uh, he's not much
in public appearances nowadays.

Um, but to lean into his relationship
with his son, which was the most, one

of the most unique things about his
casting, not only was he the first

black captain in, uh, in a, in a main
role, but to have him be a single father

was a powerful motivation as well.

And to have that all brought up
to the surface was magic to see.

Absolute magic.

Beautiful.

Kevin: Yeah.

We'll, uh, we'll spend the rest of
this episode talking about Benjamin

Sisko and that character's legacy on
the franchise and our, our favorite

moments of the past of that character,
but before we move into that, is there

anything else about this episode of
Starfleet Academy you wanted to call out?

Like for me, a moment that stands
out is the doctor in sick bay, a,

a after chastising, the, the cadets
who got into the bar fight, uh, that,

that just little moment of SAM asking
how you deal with loss and, uh, and

uh, the Doctor being a little short.

I think there is clearly a story
is going to be told there about

how the Doctor deals with all of
the people he has left behind.

Rob: We, we hope so.

I mean, we've only got
three episodes left?

Is it a 10 episode or eight?

Kevin: Was episode five and, uh, it's
a 10 episode season, so we got five

Rob: We're halfway through.

So we can get, we can get an episode
solely focused on the Doctor.

Come on.

And we're still waiting on Tilly.

Kevin: Or at least a b plot.

Rob: A B plot, at least
give us a B plot at least.

Um, one thing for me is, uh, uh, SAM's
setup as Emissary is, uh, Mork and Mindy.

All right.

Okay.

I grew up watching Mork and Mindy
as a kid, and it, uh, closed every

episode with Robin Williams standing
over a shining light that flashed at

him saying, what have you learn today?

And as soon as SAM sort of like went
into her, uh, into her photon place

and the shining light of her creators,
atop of her, I'm, they're going and

they're going Check in and tell us
what your, what's been going on?

I'm going, it's Mork and Mindy.

All right.

SAM is, you know, Mork from Ork.

Kevin: from the best
Rob, steal from the best.

I notice, uh, as, as she's talking to
her creators, it, it, they change color

and it seems like the three colors it
changes to is yellow, blue, and red.

And the fact that they're like
the Starfleet, uh, department

or, or uniform colors, it, it,
it just feels very thematic.

It may like those scenes feel
very Star Trek by having those

real bright colors over them.

Uh, I don't know if they're
doing that on purpose.

I wouldn't put it past them.

But yeah, other than that, it's
kind of a, a bit of a, a generic,

uh, holo squid situation going on.

Rob: Shimmering lights, uh, yeah,
A little bit squid like as well.

Um,

Kevin: Or, uh, or jelly fishy.

Rob: and, uh, do you see some romance
blossoming from our B plot between,

uh, Ake and uh, uh, Arnold Rimmer?

Kevin: No, I, I, I don't
think it's romance.

But a professional, um,
mutual admiration perhaps?

Uh, yeah, I loved Kelrec when I, I don't
know why he takes it so personally that

Ake left Starfleet, but, um, just when
she, uh, sidled up to him with her head.

And said his flute was rough, man,
and it made him break and laugh.

And seeing the human crack
through was a delight.

And, uh, yeah, I, I look forward
to seeing more of Kelrec.

I think they, they were, they are
off to a deliberately difficult start

so that they can, like, there was no
Thok in this episode, but I wouldn't

be surprised if they have a bit of
a, um, uh, uh, you know, uh, respect

among peers, captain, first officer.

The, the dynamic between Kelrec and
Ake, I think they will be thick as

thieves and, and have each other's
backs, uh, before too long, and

it'll be delightful to watch.

Rob: Oh, it's, you know, it's, it's
TV series character building 101.

They, they can't stand each other at
the start, and by the end, hopefully

they're built a mutual respect.

Kevin: Yeah.

No, the sparks I thought you
were referring to would be

between Jay-den and Kyle.

Rob: Oh yeah.

Yep, yep, yep.

I, I am, as the kids say, I ship that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, and it's fun to watch them just
like play it as a background thing.

Like it's not, it's not
central to any plot.

There's no stakes to the relationship.

It is just there for fun and
to watch these characters

light up and enjoy each other.

It's, uh, as SAM says, I love love.

Rob: But um, yes.

Uh, there's a lot of people online
saying it's the greatest thing ever.

There's other people saying
it's the worst thing ever.

The joys of modern internet fandom.

Um, but yes, I think it is, um,
a bit of an up and down episode,

but the stuff that is good.

It is so good.

Um, th.

The highs are incredibly high.

It's just a bit, last week was
a bit more of a consistent and

well structured episode that
was great from beginning to end.

Um, whereas this one
definitely had some weak spots.

Kevin: Yeah, there's a bit of, it feels
inside out versus outside into me.

Like last week's episode felt
like it came from the character.

They just, the story was going
to be whatever it was gonna

be based on the character.

Whereas this, they went in with an agenda.

We are, we are, um, mythologizing
Benjamin Sisko and through the character

of SAM, we're connecting them on
these, this identity as emissaries.

There was so much of that kind of like
structure and points that needed to be

hit that it was almost inevitable that
the story that would connect all these

dots would be a little all over the place.

Rob: And yeah.

How did you find that?

As someone who's not as, you know,
you love your Deep Space Nine,

but not as, it's not your go-to.

How was that looking at it, uh, with the
exploration of Ben Sisko from the outside?

Kevin: Look, I'm a, I'm
a huge Star Trek nerd.

I got my own Star Trek podcast, you know.

Uh, so I was always gonna
love it in in those terms.

I think any, any reservations or second
thoughts I might have come back to the

character of Benjamin Sisko and how
much you like him or identify with him.

Uh, and, uh, I think it, it
might be a good time therefore,

to talk about Ben Sisko and our
reflections on that character.

Uh, and, and, uh, that might
be the best way to explain my

feelings about this episode.

Rob: I cannot wait to hear.

So, um, we're all coming
from the same point.

Which season are you coming from?

Kevin: Oh golly.

Yeah.

Maybe an opening statement is in order,
because, um, I struggled to think of

like, what is the one episode that, that
Ben Sisko ha has his best moment in.

Um, I don't know if you had the
same difficulty, but I find Ben

Sisko is a slippery character.

He is at once, completely consistent,
and the rock at the center of the

show that is Deep Space Nine and
the cast and the ensemble that

is, uh, that group of characters.

But he's slippery from
one moment to the next.

I find it difficult to understand his
emotional world, to the point where

I, I, I am not sure where Benjamin
Sisko is peak Benjamin Sisko because

there are so many Benjamin Siskos.

He contains multitudes.

He's a father, he is a
hard ass, um, warrior.

He is an inspirational leader.

He has all of these
things at different times.

And he is a religious figure.

He, he is wearing so many hats that
from moment to moment I struggle to

go, oh, well he, that seems like not
a very good leadership moment for

you, but it's because he was being
a religious leader in that moment.

And so the, his, some of his
highs are lows by other standards,

if you, if you take my meaning.

So I struggled, but I think, uh,
if I had to pick just one, I went

back to, uh, In the Pale Moonlight.

Rob: Well, yeah, that's the
thing because also we, you know,

because of, let's not say we, me.

I relate all of our episodes
mostly back to Deep Space Nine.

So all the great ones we've talked about.

So we've had references to Pale
Moonlight, um, Beyond the Stars.

Um, you know, you name
them, we've got them there.

But I, you know, I'd love to do a look,
especially at, you know, because he

has so many hats and some episodes,
he's balancing those two hats together

and others, he is just one, one.

The hat metaphor is not
getting away from me.

It, I, I will stick with it.

So you've got episodes where let's
just focus on Sisko as a dad.

Let's focus on him as a cunning,
uh, diplomat and um, yeah,

the machinations of that.

And we get to Pale Moonlight
for that, which is one of the

greatest Star Trek episodes ever.

Kevin: Yeah, he resists
being made into an archetype.

Feel like all of our other captains,
you can go, well, they, they

were that archetype, you know?

And, uh, the Picard, the explorer,
poet, diplomat archetype.

Ben Sisko, does not fit into
any archetype that I recognize.

Uh, and it, it, it is
so difficult, therefore.

And I, and I have thoughts about
Avery Brooks' performance as well,

and Avery Brooks as an actor.

I, I think he's not to everyone's taste.

And I, I struggle with it because
I'm, I am conscious that he is our

only black captain who led a show and
that I as a, as a white dude, perhaps

there are elements of his portrayal
that are rooted in Black culture that

I just don't recognize because they're
not part of my lived experience.

But Avery Brooks, I feel
like, and, and this portrayal.

First of all, when you see Avery Brooks
in interviews and press clips and

things like that, he's a weird dude.

Or at least he strikes me as a weird dude.

He, he, he is like performing
jazz with his life.

Rob: And that's, and that's the main
thing we've talked about before.

But in the, the beautiful documentary,
one of the, you know, the great Star

Trek documentaries ever made, where
everyone says Avery Brooks is jazz.

He would say it all the time
when they're doing scenes or

running, it's just jazz man.

Just, just, just go with
the music of the scene.

And that carries on.

He brings that influence into
his performance of Sisko.

But that is, as you said, his

Kevin: And it, yeah,
and it bleeds through.

It means it makes him as a character,
sometimes a little twitchy and

odd and, and musical at moments
where you don't expect music.

And, uh, so all of that stuff, I,
at different times I have found

off-putting in Benjamin Sisko.

Uh, and then at other times, he is
an inspiring father, an inspiring

leader, a a, uh, stoic warrior.

And these moments of stillness,
um, are, are so, uh, compelling.

Uh, so he is just like the episode we just
finished talking about the highs are high,

but there are some lows that make you kind
of go, oh, I don't know about that one.

Um, but In the Pale Moonlight, I'll
just go with this episode of mine.

Uh, season six, episode 19 is the
one in which Sisko decides to step

through a door and not look back
and bring the Romulans into the

Dominion War, no matter what it takes.

And partners with Elim Garak, who
has a fantastic episode as well.

Arguably his best episode too.

Um, and they decide to set aside or
Sisko decides to set aside his moral

reservations and work for the greater
good, whatever it takes to deceive the

rolins with Garak's help, uh, to make
them believe that the, the Dominion

are planning to, uh, betray the Romulan
Empire and their peace treaty by

invading them, which is not the case.

Uh, and yet by the end of the
episode, the Romulans are convinced

that it is, and they enter the war
on the side of the alliance between

the Klingons and the Federation.

And, uh, this is, this is the episode
where, um, it is framed by Sisko

speaking to camera in his personal
log, talking through the events.

What was I thinking?

Landing on the, uh,
decision, I can live with it.

I lied, I cheated.

I, I did this, I did that,
but I can live with it.

We didn't mention it, SAM quotes that.

She says, I can live with it.

When she's talking to
her creators at the end.

She says, I'll do this on my
terms and I can live with it.

And they cut her off,
mid, mid, mid thought.

So, yeah.

Um.

I think there's a lot of great Sisko
stuff in this episode, not just

the like stalwart warrior who's
willing to do whatever it takes.

Um, but there are moments
of levity as well.

Like they bring this, this alien who's
a, a holo artist to create the, the faked

logs of the Cardassian planning meeting.

And, uh, and he, they bail him out
of prison to do this job for Sisko.

And then Odo catches, uh, Odo has to
arrest him for attempting to murder Quark.

The scene in his office where
Sisko like Odo calls him and

says, do you know this person?

'cause he just murdered Quark.

And, and, uh, Sisko just like tosses his
pad onto the, onto his table and just

looks ashamed of like, what have I become?

I am now like defending the indefensible.

Those moments of like shame or uh,
uh, or uh, embarrassment from him

are really enjoyably played as well.

Um, he has a knockdown drag out
fight with, uh, Garak once he figures

out exactly what that duplicitous
Cardassian has done in his name,

Rob: it's brutal.

Kevin: Love the shouting Sisko as
well, the, the morally outraged,

uh, but knowing that, um, it was his
decisions that brought him to this.

All of that is just so
good in this episode.

So, yeah, the cheers to camera and
deleting the personal log is what

everyone remembers about this episode.

But to me, the, the scenes in
flashback where Sisko is making

an irreversible decision and then
rolling with the consequences despite

his discomfort, is what I really
enjoy watching in this episode.

Rob: It's, it's, it's a masterclass.

It's a, an absolute masterpiece.

And anytime we get our captain, our
lead character, you know, as the

vocal point and the even addressing to
camera makes it incredible theatrical

style performance down the barrel.

Um, and, uh, Avery Brooks brings
that theatricality, but also focus

down, down the barrel to br invite
us all in, uh, in this confession.

Um, it's, it's, it's glorious stuff,
absolutely glorious, and it's a great

stepping stone to where we go with his
ultimate sacrifice, uh, and his part

to play in the broader universe that
these petty little, almost, you know,

petty little human, uh, or, you know,
you know, organic, uh, uh, problems.

Uh, he has to get through before he
can ascend to his higher purpose.

Kevin: Yeah.

What did you pick, Rob?

Rob: Uh, it's incredibly difficult,
as you said, to narrow it down.

And we have had so many great
episodes of him that we focused on.

Um, so I was going through a couple.

Like I was thinking of Emissary,
like his first appearance, glorious

Kevin: incredible.

His first appearance is
one of his strongest.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: We talked about how Starfleet
Academy had a clearly a great premiere

that had time to bake and all the, all the
care and love put into it that it needed

to be a great, uh, opening to a series.

And I feel like Emissary had
that same thing going for it.

Rob: Very much so, and especially we
talked about, you know, the highs and

the lows, and there's been many talks
about, you know, the challenges of

season one of Next Generation and just
how stiff and stilted everything was.

And the, the gloriousness
that is, um, Patrick Stewart.

Watching him in season one is, is
quite a jarring thing to go, but this

is not the Picard, we know, this is
not the elegant, sophisticated, you

know, uh, charismatic, um, but still
strong and, uh, uh, purposeful leader.

There's a stiffness, there's a
harshness, there's an edge to that.

But, um, yeah, Avery Brooks hits
the ground running with his,

um, with his Sisko, where you
see that difference between,

Kevin: That's not a small ask.

Hey, uh, we're giving you a TV series.

You're gonna be the captain.

And by the way, in the first episode, you
have to play a scene with Patrick Stewart.

Rob: Yeah.

And you have to

Kevin: and it is like, hang on,
I thought I was the captain.

I have to be in a scene with the best
captain of all time in my first episode?

And they nail it.

Rob: Incredible.

Um, so I was looking at that.

I was looking at Sacrifice of Angels,
which is in season six, where they,

uh, finally get back, um, uh, uh,
Deep Space Nine, um, with what,

which Deep Space Nine did so great.

Glorious space battles, um, which I
would love to see, you know, redone

and restored and, uh, remastered.

But, uh, all.

Kevin: loss on the retaking of Deep
Space Nine is a real highlight for me

in the, of this late series of that.

I think that's a, that's an a great turn
for him as leader is like the right thing

to do here is to abandon the station.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: I'm leaving my
baseball 'cause we'll be back.

Rob: Oh, incredible.

And the people left behind as well.

So you've got, you know, Kira, Odo,
Jake stays there 'cause he is working

on his arc as a, as a journalist.

Um, so, and that is when him and
Dukat are at their best, when

they're two warriors, uh, you
know, tactic, you know, strategists

trying to figure each other out.

Um, and that episode is a clear,
great focus of Sisko as the, the

warrior and how, you know, the battle
plans and what strategies they use to

break through defenses, and, and also
great cameo from, uh, the Enterprise

there fighting at this battle.

Um, but I ended up with, which I
think is, uh, a great battle of

his many hats, which is Rapture.

Which is in season five, episode,
uh, it's overall episode 10 of

season five, Rapture, where, um, his
role as the emissary and his role

as, uh, a member of Starfleet, um,
clash as Bajor is about to be given

permission to join the Federation.

Kevin: This is the one where he is
like, you know, he's going slowly insane

and, uh, the, the, he's haunted by
the, by the visions from the Prophets

that are pushing him this way and that.

Rob: Yes, it opens with,

Kevin: has to, see it through.

Rob: It opens with a, a, a, a, a
glorious artwork of the lost city.

Um.

And so Sisko scans that into the system
and there's a, a huge, uh, totem,

uh, with writing on all sides, but we
can't see what's on the final side.

And that would give the location
of where this lost city is.

And so Sisko becomes obsessed
with finding this location.

And also it opens with, he's scanning
everything into the computer, there's

a short circuit and he is thrown back.

And from that moment on, he has these
intense visions of the future, of the

past, of the present of what could be,
of what will be of where if things are.

And it's that battle for
him 'cause it's killing him.

And the visions are becoming more
intense and the pain to him is

intense as ah, Bashir says he not
discombobulated, but his entire system

is out of phase and so he will die.

But he needs to find Kasidy Yates is
coming back after her six months in

prison for working with the Maquis.

And so he is, it's not just two hats he's
working at, here we see him battling with

being the Emissary, battling with being
in charge of this vocal point in Starfleet

history and Bajoran history as an officer.

Um, his relationship as a father, his
relationship as a, uh, a boyfriend.

All these hats all
converge in one episode.

And we see

Kevin: And the plot here of like,
will Bajor join the Federation?

Uh, Sisko's two roles in that the, the
conflict of interest for him at the

heart of that is, is fascinating too.

Rob: How that causes tension within
him and the higher ups of the

Federation, where they see him as
a, they give him a lot of leeway,

whereas, um, he's not completely
orthodox in his way of running things.

Um, and we see what we've
talked about earlier of how

Avery Brooks as a performer is.

We see this, all this
musicality to his performance.

There's a looseness.

Um, there's many videos, especially
from, uh, we brought him up before, uh,

Rowan J. Coleman, who does great videos
about each particular actor, and I think

he's done one on Avery Brooks as well
compared to, um, the, the poise and the

deliberateness of Jean-Luc Picard by
Patrick Stewart and how his phrasing of

lines and how he emphasizes particular
things, where he puts a pause that

Shakespearean training about iambic
pentameter and rhythm and the craft of

acting that he did for 20 years before
he even stepped into the captain's chair.

So he brought all that
experience, Patrick Stewart.

When you come to Avery Brooks,
he's, you know that history

of him as an actor as well.

He brings that into Sisko
with a different energy.

There's a fluidity to him.

Even moments where he, how he walks.

There's no real rigidness or structure.

There's a looseness of
how he moves around.

Kevin: I think that's what I was
referring to when I said he was

twitchy at times is like that,
that, yeah, he moves like water.

Rob: Exactly.

And so the way he delivers a line
and gives a take is he hits emphasis

where you wouldn't expect it.

He goes almost like a high note when
he's feeling a particular emotion.

And this because he's so frantic, he's
so desperate to get that message out.

You feel that was where he's elevated.

Um, and I just adore seeing an actor
explore that in a way that is new and

unusual and something you don't expect.

And to have it in

Kevin: I love that.

'cause, yeah, like I was saying,
some of that stuff is what I find

at times most off-putting about
Sisko and Brooks' portrayal of him.

But if you lean into it and embrace
it for what it is and the, the

unexpected places it takes the
character, um, it is, it is joyful.

Rob: It's just, yeah.

To see, you see him with his family.

You see him with his son, you see
him with his, with the Admiral.

You see him with Kira.

You see him with the Bajoran people.

And it's not jarring at all.

But there is, he is being a different
part of himself with each of those people.

Um, and it's glorious to see
just all combined in one episode.

How they talk about Sisko as well.

There's a beautiful scene on, uh, on
the, um, control deck where you've

got, you've got Dax and uh, O'Brien,
who are the cynics when it comes

to religion and uh, and politics.

You've got, you've got Worf, 'cause
of course the Klingons are a very

deeply religious, uh, uh, culture
and how he is siding with Kira and

just, you know, having a first officer
who is such a religious, uh, person.

How is their faith, their
belief is so strong.

And for Deep Space Nine, to explore
that with, you know, the, the original

remit of Star Trek was no religion,
you know, all that type of stuff.

But it enhances everything to have those
debates of going, you, I wish you could

see, you don't believe, I believe in Benj—
I believe what the Emissary will d do.

And then the conflict between Kira
and Kai Winn is, there's an amazing

scene in there, which has nothing
to do with Sisko, but that scene of,

'cause we, at this point, we hate
Louise Fletcher as Kai Winn, but a

great moment where she goes, you know,
you were fighting for five years.

I was in a concentration ca camp.

I didn't have a gun to protect me.

I was beaten and tortured for five
years and all I had was my faith.

And those type of moments.

You go, this is Star Trek.

Kevin: Kai Winn's superpower is
making you empathize with her

just when you hate her most.

Rob: And that's the glory of the writing
and Louise Fletcher working together.

But yeah, this is a, a perfect episode
of showing how much Avery Brooks

was working on this show, how he was
perceived as a character by not just the

people, but also us watching as well.

And his role within this show was
elevating to something else where

he had multiple responsibilities and
trying to balance them all, and, and

pushing that in the dialogue like
Kassidy Yates going, this is your

son, you wanna leave your son behind?

And, and it's heartbreaking
watching now because we know

ultimately that's what he does.

He has a greater purpose or a higher
purpose, um, he is, you know, part

prophet, um, that he was never meant to,
to stay here and to leave Jake behind.

It's uh

Kevin: That does feel like the, the
core nature of Benjamin Sisko as a

character is that he cannot succeed
unequivocally, because he's forced

into mutually exclusive roles or, or
roles that the definition of success

are in conflict with each other.

And he has to pick a side.

Again and again, Benjamin Sisko is
forced to pick a side when he does not

want to, and then forced to live with
the consequences of that choice, which

is something that, um, our, our other
Star Trek captains seem certainly not

to have had to do as frequently, if at

Rob: Yeah, they kind of
explored a little bit in Picard.

Why Pic— in the, in the, in his own
series, um, not as successfully, like why

he left the Federation and his, you know,
his drawing to, to the Romulus crisis,

uh, Romulan crisis and how that put him at
odds with his place within the Federation.

But to play it out over seven
seasons for a character at the

time as opposed to coming back
as an afterthought is incredible.

And he's sh you know, stumbling
in at the end of the episode

and screaming about the locusts.

The plague of locusts will just,
will take over, um, and Bajor Bajor

must never, you know, and not ready,
are not ready to join Starfleet.

And then him waking up and his
agony and pain about, I was so

close to understanding everything.

Um, yeah, harrowing,
beautiful, incredible stuff.

Um, from our, our man, Avery.

Kevin: There's two other thoughts
that I have about Benjamin Sisko.

One of them is the Avery Brooks

beyond the the scene of it all.

Like the meta textual thing of Avery
Brooks as the lead of a Star Trek

series has been uniquely absent from the
public eye since that series wrapped.

And, um, there is something about
that that I think it shouldn't,

but it colors my impression of
his place in Star Trek history.

Like I think about Picard as a character,
and I can't help being, having my, my

emotional reaction to that character
being colored by the fact that, that

Patrick Stewart has invested so much
of himself in the franchise beyond

the, the work that is on the screen.

And when Avery Brooks wrapped Deep
Space Nine, he walked away from Star

Trek and has not been at conventions,
has not, you know, written a memoir

or, or, or talked to the press about
his, his thoughts looking back or

about where Star Trek has gone since.

Rob: He certainly has done, he's
certainly done, he's been deliberate.

There's certain, there's certain events
that he has shown up to, certain moments

he's been there for certain interviews
he has done, but he's certainly,

Kevin: bar is really high though.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, he is there.

And so when he does show up or when
he does appear, even, I think in

the, uh, documentary, they've used
stock footage of interviews that he,

he didn't, he, I don't think he was
interviewed specifically for that.

They've used, yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

And there, there's a recent book, looking
back at Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and

all of the interviews with Avery Brooks
are contemporaneous rather than modern.

And, and so yeah, on the one hand
you can respect an artist who went,

look, the work is on the screen.

I am not here to talk you
through it in hindsight.

If you're curious about Deep
Space Nine, watch Deep Space Nine.

Um, on the other hand, you, you
can't help wonder, like, um,

does he look down on the work?

Does he, is he not proud of it?

Is he unhappy with it in some way?

Uh, and, and I guess that is left to the
viewer to, to, uh, make up their mind.

And it perhaps shouldn't, shouldn't
affect our appreciation of the character

or the acting or the work that was done,
but for some reason it does for me.

Rob: I mean, especially.

The interviews that he has done
and the specif specificity of the

moments he decides to speak up, he
speaks very glowingly of the show.

He speaks very glowingly of his
relationship with, um, you know, his son.

Uh, and, and that is mutual.

I mean, the love that those two

Kevin: For anyone listening who,
who hasn't, hasn't read the stories

around this episode, that final
monologue of Sisko's that we hear is

from a, a spoken word poetry album
that Avery Brooks put out in the

years following Deep Space Nine.

And, uh, they got the rights
for that through Cirroc ongoing

relationship with Brooks.

Brooks, Avery Brooks does not generally
talk about Star Trek, or to people working

in Star Trek, but Cirroc was able to reach
out to him and have that conversation

and, and get permission to use that.

And we are told, had a conversation
with Kerrice Brooks, who is uh, no

relation, playing SAM and was able to
kind of patch past the torch of being

the emissary in Star Trek, uh, in a,
in a meaningful way for them both.

Rob: Um, yeah, it's a, that's one of
the highlights for me of coming out of

this, uh, series is, uh, the relationship
between father and son and how, you know,

or, you know, older actor and young actor.

And he really was very
protective of that relationship.

And both of them are.

You know, um, he calls him his dad,
you know, he, he was him, uh, and

that, that type of stuff is beautiful.

I think Avery came out about
10 years ago to Australia.

There was a Star Trek convention and
they had a couple of, maybe I'm reading

that wrong, I have to look it up,
First Contact did it about 10 years ago

where we had a couple of, um, Voyager
people and a couple of Deep Space Nine

people, and I think Avery was there.

I'm not sure.

I'll have to double check that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: But, um, yeah, especially
like his performance is so

unlike any of the other captains.

Um, and everyone's throwing a lot of

Kevin: it for its difference.

Rob: And are people throwing a lot of
shade at, um, at Holly Hunter for her,

you know, bringing disrespect to the

Kevin: She's doing it again.

Rob: Yeah, she's doing that thing.

Whereas there's stuff that, uh,
Avery Brooks did, which were un was

Kevin: She too moves like water.

Rob: So when you look at someone like
Rene Auberjonois as Odo, he's more in

the style of acting and experience as
say, a Patrick Stewart very much and

his role as Odo and the way he holds
himself, how he pauses, how he delivers

his lines, that that posture, that that
deliberateness of his performance was, is

very much in line with Patrick Stewart.

But that's in a, a supporting
role when you've got, uh, Avery

Brooks doing nothing but jazz man.

Kevin: The other thing I wanted
to just touch on is this,

this, this title, Emissary.

And, uh, it's something that
existed through Deep Space Nine,

almost as a mystery, like it's
the, it's the title of the pilot.

We are told very early, as soon
as, uh, Sisko arrives on the

station or at Bajor, that he is to
be the Emissary of the prophets.

But, kind of one of the central
mysteries of that entire

series is what does that mean?

What do the prophets
want of Benjamin Sisko?

What is his connection, um, to them?

And, and I don't know if your
reasoning about that evolved the

same way Mine did, but like early on
it felt like, oh, what they mean is

that he is the emissary from Earth to
Bajor or from Earth to the prophets.

Like he, the, the senders of this
emissary, the, the, the people

or the culture for which he is an
emissary is Earth and the Federation.

But by the end of the series, they
kind of flip it and, and pay off that

he's the emissary of the prophets, by
the prophets, created in part by them.

And that his, his role is
to explain Bajor's religious

culture back to the Federation.

Um, and that whole like ambiguity
about the role of the Emissary and,

and what his, and what his nature
is, um, then I, I look at SAM in this

episode of Starfleet Academy, kind of
identifying with that title of Emissary.

And at least by all appearances,
her version of Emissary seems

a lot more straightforward.

That she is made by her creators on,
uh, uh, among the photonics, and she

is here to represent their interests
in understanding, uh, organic life

and the Federation and humanity.

And I wonder, are they setting us
up for a similar flip that by the

end she will be the emissary for the
organics back to her photonic people,

uh, 'cause that would be delightful.

But yeah, the, the ambiguity about
who's the emissary working for and whose

interests are they, whose interests are
they representing, who are they trying

to speak to about what, um, was always
throughout Deep Space Nine, I would always

go, oh, they called him Emissary again.

Emissary of what?

To who?

I don't understand!

And it seems so clear now with SAM,
but maybe it isn't so straightforward.

Rob: Yeah, I think there's the,
the joy of watching it over seven

seasons is that your goalpost shifts.

So you're there going, well, clearly,
he's, uh, you know, he's there to

represent the Federation to this,
and then you go, oh, no, he's clearly

there to represent, uh, Bajor.

And then by the end you go, no, he was
literally like, like SAM was created in,

you know, 70 days ago, but, you know,
Sisko was created for this mission.

He is there for the prophets,
the higher beings that exist on a

plane that we do not understand.

And Sisko is meant to have
been the voice for that.

And once he, uh,

Kevin: seems obvious that was
probably not figured out in

advance for Deep Space Nine.

It was something they figured out
along the way, even late in the

series of like, what if his mother
was, was prophet and, and they,

they built that in after the fact.

So, uh, so that we can now look back
on it as like, um, grand design, but

at the time they were making it up as
they went along, as they no doubt will

with, uh, with this new character.

Rob: And there is definitely a,
a skill there that shouldn't be

underrated of that, in a lot of shows
that kind of go, not retcon, but kind

of say this was the plan all along.

Not many shows pull it off.

But I think

Kevin: It seems to be the unique challenge
of writing modern television is you

need to, you need to start before you
know where entirely where it will end.

Rob: Well, especially 'cause a
lot of TV shows now are inspired

by completed book series.

I think Game of Thrones is
one of the biggest examples.

They started doing the show before
the series is finished and they still

haven't finished the book series.

Uh, and he never will.

There's no way George R.R. is gonna that.

But, so yeah, you're working in a way
of going, let's set up all these things.

Let's understand it as we go along.

Give us two or three
seasons to figure it out.

That never happens now.

And then go, okay, this is
everything we've established

in three or four seasons.

What can we justify with

Kevin: How can we link that together?

Rob: and going ba

Kevin: justify.

Rob: So everyone talks about
like, uh, series Bibles.

So, you know, the Office had it, Parks
and Rec had it, but also TV series

like this, which more of a, it's no
longer modern with 30 years, 40 years

past, but especially in the seventies
and eighties where episodic TV was

all it was like, it's almost a reset.

Like if you watch a like Night Rider
or Street Hawk or any of those type

of shows, they kind of reset and
they go over their own continuity.

Um.

One of my favorite shows as a kid
growing up was V where I'd watch

the TV series and I'd go, hang on.

They're using the exact same dialogue
they used from la— and they've

restarted something and they, but
they established something else.

There's no continuity.

But they have to be a bit more
clever, especially with Deep

Space Nine to go, this is what we
established, this is what we can

work within and justify where we go.

And I think they masterfully got
it to a point of, at the end we

can go, we can see all the points,
we can see where we are going.

And even though we may not have
known it at the time, we using

what we've created to get to a
point where it all, uh, links in.

Um, and I love that journey of going,
we don't know what our lead character's

overall super objective, if you want
to use an acting term or his, uh,

his overarch intention is to be.

Um, it's beautifully played out.

Kevin: Well, speaking of not knowing
where things are going, we know

nothing about the second half of
this season of Starfleet Academy.

Rob: Mind you, we've been
pretty good with our prediction.

Like last week we said, oh,
it's gotta be a SAM episode.

And as soon as we finished recording,
about five minutes later, I get

a message from Kevin going, this
is what the episode's called.

And we could go onto, you know,
a website and there will have

the title of next week's episode.

But I like the, the, the
moment we have right now, we

have no idea what's going on.

Kevin: Well, if you ask me for a guess
based on what was like, uh, set up this

episode, it seems to be the Doctor and,
and his, his, uh, reckoning with his

long life and his lost compatriots.

Rob: Yeah, I'm there going, do we need
a bit more like, 'cause we had a little

bit of Genesis in, uh, episode three, but

Kevin: I'm ready for some more Genesis.

She's, she's been kind of supporting
cast for a couple of episodes now.

Time to bring her back, for sure.

Rob: She was quite prominent
in the first three episodes.

Kevin: I'll tell you what else needs
to be resolved: the grudge between

the War College and Starfleet Academy.

It's getting repetitive.

I'm getting bored of it.

I'm ready for them to move on
to the next step of that story.

I'm tired of the, oh,
you're in this room too.

Let's have another standoff
where threaten to hit each other.

You know, enough of that.

Let's, let's move on to the next thing.

Rob: We're all ready for a change.

Exactly.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, until next week, Rob, I will
leave you to, uh, bask in the glow

of this, uh, trip down memory lane.

Rob: I, I feel like I need to
watch another Sisko episode.

I might watch Take Me Out to the
Holosuite or even Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang.

I want to hear

Kevin: Yeah, Out to the Holosuite
has their reference to the, uh, the

Launching Pad or the Landing Pad,
whatever it was, the, the bar where

he, uh, had a, a, a fight with, uh,
the, the Vulcan who, uh, has the

grudge match on the baseball diamond.

Rob: Or I watch Badda-Bing,
Badda-Bang, 'cause I want to hear

James Darren sing with Avery Brooks.

The best is yet to come.

Kevin: I think I need
to watch The Visitor.

It's been too long.

And, uh, apparently that's where the
book, the, the Anslem book is established.

He has written that in that alternate
future and it's, it's, uh, it's shown.

And so the, the question of did he write
it in the real future that, um, that

was bought at so high a price in that
episode is, uh, is satisfying to see.

But yeah, I want to go
back and watch that.

It's been

Rob: Oh.

Get the tissues ready.

You're gonna be in tears.

Kevin: Alright, well until then,
Rob, see you around the galaxy.