Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's been a minute.

I'm Kevin Yank,

Rob: and I'm Rob Lloyd,

Kevin: and we are back with the
series premiere of Starfleet Academy.

Rob: Two episodes, a show that
has been decades in the making.

I think the first rumblings of it
were like, back in the late seventies

that was possibly thinking of like
doing the movie as a, as a young Kirk

and Spock meeting at the academy.

It's been in, in on the cards
for over, you know, 40 years.

Kevin: Yeah, the origin story
is always a temping place to go.

And Star, Star Trek is no
stranger to looking backwards.

I mean, the Star Trek 2009 movie was
very much like an attempt at that.

Kirk, Spock and Bones meet at
the ca at Starfleet Academy.

But, uh, but we haven't done
the proper series until now.

And I feel like they, they,
they never quite got it right.

Um, and the question is,
did they get it right now?

So we'll talk about that in a bit.

But it's also, uh, Star Trek's
60th anniversary this year.

So it feels timely to be attempting
something momentous like this.

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly.

And especially with everything up in the
air, you can't, if you're a, uh, into

the Star Trek world as much as we are,
we can't help but be aware of outside

factors when it comes to the world with
Paramount being bought by Skydance.

So the future of, uh, not only the Star
Trek franchise, but the company that

runs it, Paramount, what their plans
are, what they're hoping to do, and um,

and what will come about with this new
leadership and their very publicized, uh,

political leanings and political support.

So, we'll, uh, we'll see when we move
into the 60th year of Star Trek, how,

uh, it survives, thrives, and, uh, has
a place within the world at the moment.

Kevin: Yeah.

But right now we have two new episodes
of Star Trek before us, so we'll judge

it on its merits, as we always do.

Rob: Exactly.

Just on what we see on screen.

Kevin: Yeah.

Before we get into Starfleet Academy,
maybe just a couple a thoughts about Star

Trek: Khan that happened during the break.

Rob: Yes.

Let me know.

We had a bit of a chat about it,
uh, uh, last year in 2025 about

the upcoming audio series Khan.

Um, and you have had a chance to, uh,
listen and indulge in the audio world.

Uh, Kevin Yank, tell me how was Khan?

Kevin: It's real good.

Uh, I would be here for
more Star Trek audio dramas.

Um, yeah, really well
performed, amazingly produced.

The soundtrack is killer.

Like I would just listen
to the score of this thing.

Uh, um, really well done.

At nine episodes.

It's meatier than I think most
people would expect when they hear

the premise of how did Khan go
from Ceti Alpha V to Star Trek II.

Um, some things happen, more
happen you would expect.

Rob: And is it a, um, is it each
episode, like half an hour or 45?

What's the

Kevin: Yeah, it's about
TV length episodes.

Yeah.

Every, every one lands on a
cliffhanger, like, uh, just

like any prestige drama does.

The actors are, are really good,
especially as the, the top billed

one, uh, Wrenn Schmidt, who plays
Lieutenant Marla McGivers, uh, who you

may remember from Space Seed is the,
the lieutenant who gets, uh, banished

along with, um, Khan and his crew.

She is a standout.

I loved her in For All Mankind.

And here she is really good as well.

Rob: Who is she in For All Mankind.

I'm a huge For All Mankind fan as well.

Kevin: She's Margot Madison
in, For All Mankind.

Rob: Right.

Kevin: She starts in the first series
of like a flight controller, and,

and, uh, by later in the series,
her, her role develops, shall we say.

She is on quite an adventure at the
moment in, uh, in For All Mankind.

But yeah, she's got this, uh, kind
of like nerdy, serious voice that,

that I think goes really well, um,
with the Marla McGivers uh, character

who, way back in the sixties, like
she was, she was a history nerd, and

that's what fall in love Khan and his
people, or at least get seduced by them.

And, uh, yeah, watching her or hearing
her kind come to grips with this decision

she's made and figure out what her place
is among this group of super-people

who are stranded is, is quite a drama.

Um, we get a hint at it in Star Trek
II, where Khan kind of says to Kirk, you

killed my wife, or, or, I, I hold you
responsible for the death of my wife.

And, uh, and so, you know, it's not
gonna go well for poor Marla McGivers.

Rob: No.

Kevin: But more happens
than you would expect.

There's a new alien race in this story.

They happen to be telepaths.

I probably won't say more than that,
but I think that is something that it

plays differently in an audio drama.

I think having, having telepaths
on screen, I guess with, with,

uh, voiceover as we've heard with
Betazoids in the past is, is one thing.

But playing it in in audio drama is
really interesting, 'cause they use audio

effects to kind of sell the fact that
what you're hearing is not a physical

voice, it's a, it's a mental voice.

And, and the actor who
plays the, uh, head of.

The, the aliens is very
interesting as well.

We definitely get a, we get a, a
satisfying answer I would say to how

did this safe planet that Kirk marooned
them on become an unsafe planet?

Uh, turn from a tameable wilderness
to a, a desert, uh, uh, hellscape?

Like that is, that is answered.

What happens to Khan's wife is answered.

A bunch of other stuff happens too.

It's, it's meaty and satisfying.

I'd say.

There was plenty of story for the TV
series that was, or the mini series

that was originally, this was originally
written for by Nicholas Meyer.

Um, yeah.

Good, good stuff.

And a, a fun framing narrative with, uh,
captain Sulu on the Excelsior and, uh,

young Tuvok who, uh, who disagrees with
his captain's orders in, in this story.

Um, fun stuff there too,
in that framing narrative.

So, yeah, if you, if you haven't
heard it, I highly recommend it.

It was delicious every second.

I'd say the only downside maybe
was some of the secondary cast.

I don't know if it's an audio
drama thing, but like, in order to

make it clear who's who, you kind
of have to write each character

with a distinguishable ethnicity.

So there's like, there's the Russian
guy who's obviously going to be the

bad guy because has a Russian accent.

Like is a lot of that going on.

There's a lot of people with, with
very, uh, very large accents to

help with the identifiability.

And it, it does make it a, a legible audio
drama, but, uh, some of the characters I

think are a little cartoony as a result.

Rob: Well, the audio drama format is
such a, a big part of the Doctor Who

franchise, obviously, uh, like Big Finish
has been creating original Doctor Who

audios with original actors from the
TV show, whether it be the classical,

modern have been coming in and now
they've established their own place.

They're officially endorsed
by the BBC and stuff.

So it's become a, a big part
of that franchise at least.

But it's a fascinating, uh, concept for
Star Trek to pick up because I don't

think it's really been a part of its,
um, uh, uh, way of producing stories.

Uh, it's a very unique way of doing it.

I think this is their first big
push, but it does take a, a specific

style to, you know, to describe
what action's going on, but not,

not making it too obvious and yeah,
getting distinct voices of characters.

'Cause if you get, uh, a, a scene
flooded with more than two characters,

you, you can easily get lost and
hang on, whose voice is what?

Uh, so, um, but that's a chunky, meaty,
uh, lot of nine, you know, you know,

45 minute to hour episodes is, um,
uh, in exploring a part that's, you

know, Nicholas Meyer has developed.

Sounds like a, fascinating concept.

Kevin: It is epic.

And the final, the final twisty episode
where like the, the big, like, you

know, the big thing happens that ends
this series, that is the reason for the

series happening is satisfying, like
what it says about Khan's character.

I don't want to go into it too much
and spoil it, but like, you know,

Khan's a fairly one dimensional
villain as we've seen him before.

And I think if there is one
aspiration, it's to make him

two dimensional, if not three
dimensional, uh, in, in, in this form.

Um, and I'd say they succeeded doing that.

Like, uh, I was emotionally
invested in Khan's decisions by

the end of this series, which is
pretty big achievement, I'd say.

Rob: That's a, that's a great achievement.

That's really, really good.

Uh, so where can people, uh, listen and,
uh, get, uh, get this into their eardrums?

Kevin: Oh, wherever, wherever
fine podcasts can be found.

If you, if you're listening
to us in a podcast app, just

search for Star Trek Khan.

I'm sure it'll turn up, but otherwise,
it'll be on the startrek.com website

for, for the foreseeable I would say.

Um, yeah, good stuff.

Uh, let's talk about Starfleet
Academy's big premiere episodes, plural.

We're gonna talk about, uh,
episode one Kids These Days,

and episode two Beta Test today.

Um, what did you think of it, Rob?

The big, uh, the big
launch of our new series.

Rob: Look, it, it, it
was, it was pretty good.

It was pretty good.

I actually genuinely enjoyed, uh, myself.

I thought it was a smart decision to
set it in the far future Discovery era.

So like Discovery season three era, um,
uh, after the Burn and stuff like that.

I thought that was a great way of
creating new lore, exploring lore

that was only touched on a little bit.

Also, I, you know, I missed out
on a season of, uh, Discovery.

I kind of did season three.

I skipped season four, went
straight to the final one.

Um, so I came in a little bit fresher
than, uh, other people would be.

Um, but I think that's what their
whole push is, is, is to, you know,

be a new springboard to bring people
in who wouldn't normally watch.

My big concern is something
that is probably gonna stay

with me throughout the season.

The whole, you know, young adult fiction,
uh, teen drama, uh, side of it, which is

the big push of it, is kind of something
is for me, one of the weaker sides of

the show, which is the main push of it.

Kevin: When you say it's for you, it's
the weaker side, are you saying that

it's just not for you or is it that,
that that itself lessens the show?

Rob: I think some of it was
written a bit, uh, cringey and,

and presented, but it's, yeah.

Uh, but the stuff that worked for
me is what I was surprised about.

It's balances out half and half.

You have that Youth Teen Drama high
school esque type of, it's almost,

uh, Degrassi Junior Star Trek.

Um, uh, but I was quite surprised
at how they balance it out with like

diplomacy and, um, time on a bridge
and, you know, uh, Star Trek's,

you know, pure Star Trek stuff.

So I was quite, anytime that stuff was
happening, I was like a pig and swill.

The other stuff, I had to sort of like,
you know, white knuckle it through.

However, how about you?

Kevin: Yeah, I, uh, I loved it and I, I
find it's even stronger on second viewing.

The first viewing is like,
it is a visual spectacle.

There's a lot coming at you.

There's a lot of details that that
slip by on first watch that when you

go back, like I completely missed
Stephen Colbert's Digital Dean

announcements on the first watch.

And then I was like, oh yeah, there
was meant to be Colbert in there.

And then I went back and
watched and he is everywhere.

Rob: He is everywhere.

Kevin: And he is a hilarious as well.

Rob: There's some great gags in there.

Kevin: Yeah, I, I love how much they
have balanced the self seriousness

of Star Trek, uh, the earnest
commitment to ideals, with, like,

kids who know nothing making mistakes.

I think that is a powerful combination
that kind of, I think back to when they

launched Star Trek Enterprise and they
promised us a rawer Starfleet, just as

humanity was taking to the stars for
the first time, they were like, this is

before they knew what they were doing.

They're gonna make mistakes and be
fallible and they very much were not.

And, and I think the fact that these
are cadets gives them permission to

be flawed and to make mistakes and to
learn from those mistakes in a way that

has been difficult to find room for
in Star Trek storytelling in the past.

So we've already got a
strong flavor of that.

And, and I agree with you that the,
the adult, the grownup cast, uh, of

officers that run the Athena really
balance that well so that it's, I I feel

like it's peanut butter and chocolate.

Like you get a little taste of this
and just when it's getting a bit

much, they flip it to the other one.

And I, I love both for that reason.

In the premiere, there were a couple
of moments that they swung at something

and it didn't quite work for me.

It was a little too cute or, or cutesy.

Um, but most of them worked
and, and I think their, their

batting average is very high.

Already after just a pilot and a
first episode, I'm amazed at how

quickly it is finding its feet.

I'm in love with what they're
doing and I can't wait to find

out more about these characters.

I, I feel like we've only just scratched
the surface on all of them, and, and

it's, that is fun too, is to, you can
see they are setting up mysteries about

all of these characters that they plan
to tell stories about where, where,

I feel like that is something that
Star Trek had lost a bit recently,

that it was very much in service of
the plot and the, they would leave

us with, with very shallow characters
that were barely a name at times.

And, and here it's all about
the characters and I'm, I'm

so happy about that too.

Rob: Yeah, we definitely got
with the first two episodes

as well that, that feel.

like the first episode, which was
the pilot, was a 70 minute episode.

So we had to get through a lot, establish
a lot of characters, a lot of setup.

There's a lot of the usual modern
Star Trek thing of here's a big

space thing and we need to do, um,
scientific mumbo jumbo to solve the

problem in a quick amount of time.

A lot of running around while fighting
is happening and shooting of lasers.

But then balancing that with the
second episode where there was

no action and it was just pure,
let's do Star Trek diplomacy from

an adult and a young person level.

And I'm there going, that's a good, that
it's great to see that they released that.

You can see why they did the first two

Kevin: It's a nice
contrast, you're saying?

Rob: Contrast to go, we can,
we can do space, but we can

also do just the Academy.

Um, to find that balance of
go, this is the whole show,

uh, which I really appreciated.

Kevin: I've been saying for a long time
that my favorite Star Trek is people

like standing in a room and debating
stuff, and that, that was Beta Test.

Uh, and it was great that they
could break away from those serious

diplomacy scenes to like Caleb
literally sitting on the fence and,

you know, all that, all that stuff.

Glitching out the, uh, security
officers and getting oozed.

I love how the, the cadet
hijinks create space for the,

the serious diplomacy stuff.

Rob: Yes.

And um, I mean, I think for me, just
because I'm of a certain age, um,

but their secret weapon is Academy
Award-winning Holly Hunter, for heaven's

Kevin: Holy moly.

She's

Rob: are, are you kidding me?

Are you actually kidding me?

We have got Holly Hunter
for an entire season

Kevin: Yeah, I know.

Rob: Oh.

Kevin: I know she's gonna be, she's
not gonna be, uh, yeah, aloof.

I, I feared that the chancellor
would be someone whose office you

go and visit when you've been bad
and they make one speech an episode.

But no, she is all over this
show and having a great time

doing it by all appearances.

Um, yeah, I love her.

I, I have not been familiar
with the works of Holly Hunter.

I at her CV and her, her list of
film credits is a list of movies

that I never got around to watching.

So this is kind of my
introduction to Holly Hunter,

Rob: Oh, welcome.

Welcome to the incredible
world of Holly Hunter.

Yeah, she is just, um, I'll,
it's that usual thing, I think

we've talked about it before.

You know?

Uh.

How Star Trek does sex, and
also how Star Trek does quirky.

And I remember, like I've heard
in interviews, Alex Kurtzman

wanted to make, you know, uh, Ake,
um, uh, let's make her quirky.

So that it, it's, it's, it would
come across as forced if it was

any other actor of a lower ability.

And because, uh, of Holly Hunter's skill,
the fact, you know, they take the time

for her to adjust her captain's seat,
she has her feet on the chair, she

reads a book with glasses, she walks
around barefoot to get the pinkies out.

Um, uh, and the fact that she's
of the same race as Pelia.

Kevin: She's part Lanthanite, she

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: So yeah, she is, and Pelia is
the only other lantite we've ever met.

And there is a consistency between these
characters, more than just that they're

white women of a certain age, but, uh, but
they, they are both, they have the same

brand of quirky that I, I really like.

Yeah.

Rob: Yeah, Carol Kane takes
it to the Carol Kaney extreme.

Yeah, this is sort of like a
more subdued, so, um, Ake has her

Grateful Dead albums in her room.

Kevin: She's so good.

Uh, I think there was just like,
there was one moment where she was

curled up in the captain's chair
where I was like, isn't it red alert?

I think that's a bit much.

Uh, but everything else was great.

Um, so, and yeah, she's, uh, she, she
is interesting and active in moments

where I feel like any other Star Trek
actor would be still, and, and nothing.

Like, yeah, there are shots of her
just reacting in silence to things

that, that I could eat like a meal.

So yeah, she's, she's great.

I am so happy to have
her leading our cast.

Uh, Paul Giamatti.

I don't think we're gonna see much more
of him this season until probably the,

the bookend finale of Caleb's story.

Rob: He'll come in the start,
and come in at the end.

Kevin: I love Paul Giamatti generally.

But what I had seen of him in the
clips and the, the trailers for

this show made me worry a little.

I think out of context, they were
a bit overdone, but in the context

of the show, it all worked for me.

He was so good.

My favorite line he says was when
he goes, "Ooh, when you lie to me,

captain, I'll admit: it's hot."

Rob: And that was a great scene.

That was incredible.

That was what I was going, you know,
when I'm sitting back and I'm going,

we have got a, a, a wide shot, uh,
staying on pretty much, it didn't

really break that much, we've got
Paul Giamatti, Holly Hunter, you know,

battling it out with their wits, with
their diplomacy, with their barbs.

And it just, I'm there
going, we're spoiled.

We're like, it's kinda like what happened
when Peter Capaldi joined Doctor Who.

I went, I can't believe we have
got this caliber of actor and

artist in, in our little show.

I'm there going just sit back and
enjoy the fact we have got these

incredible talents and coming out,
hanging out in Star Trek was, and

what they bring to it was great.

Kevin: Yeah, add to that list,
Tatiana Maslany, who is Anisha

Mir, uh, Caleb's mother seen
very briefly here in one scene.

Uh, she, she, she earns her
paycheck in that one scene in

Rob: What an incredible, we've
got Tatiana Maslany as well.

I'm there going, oh my,
yeah, we're just spoiled.

And she just pops in for the f she's
gotta pop back again, obviously.

Um, but um, yeah, she's
a superstar as well.

Incredible Emmy award
winning, uh, superstar actor.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, Caleb, uh, I enjoyed, he's walking
a fine line of likability, I feel like.

The, some of

Rob: They definitely pushed it in
episode two, definitely, in in Beta Test.

You there going oh, oh.

Kevin: Uh, I appreciate, I appreciate
that, that it's not just he's,

he's grumpy for half of the first
episode and then he's a golden boy.

Like, like that he's still learning
things and will be, he's still

learning things because, uh, yeah.

Uh, much as I enjoyed Prodigy,
I think those, those ragtag

characters became model officers
a little quick for my liking.

Rob: Well, they had Janeway to
show them whole, the whole way

as soon as they got on the ship.

Kevin: That's right.

Oh, we even got some name checks
of, uh, of our Prodigy characters.

Um, when Sam was talking to the
Doctor, asking him to be her mentor,

she goes, oh, you were a mentor to
Dal and Murf and Captain Gwyndala.

Rob: Yes, but no mention of,
of Zero, no of of Rok-Tahk.

And he looked very, he very, very taken
back when Gwyndala was mentioning they go,

there's something there, there's enticing.

Give us season three of Prodigy!

'nobody

Kevin: some of Rok-Tahk's.

Uh, I don't know if it's just the
one, uh, I think it's just the one

who's wandering around Starfleet
Academy, that rock creature.

Rob: And like, the perfect
representation from Prodigy wasn't

sorta like, tried to, oh, let's
do it in real, you know, you know,

Kevin: Yeah.

It was, it was just more realistic
enough that you could buy it

as a walkin' talkin' rock.

Yeah, for sure.

Rob: Um, yes.

Kevin: I'm just going
through the cast list here.

Lura Thok as the, uh, the Half
Klingon, half Jem'Hadar, uh, tough

talking, uh, head of the Cadets.

Rob: I was, I was a bit curious about
how this one would work out and uh hmm.

Uh, what, what a, what
a blend of species to

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: a, a Klingon and a Jem'Hadar.

Kevin: Uh, I thought was great.

When she's getting, uh, Caleb to drop
and give me, gimme 10 in the hallways.

Um, it was like, okay, this is something.

We'll see where this goes.

By the time she was like going,
I can always spot the runner

in the, uh, in, Beta Test.

I, I was completely sold.

She is, she's having a great time.

I love that she is mean and
finds it funny how mean she is.

Rob: Well, she, um, uh, the act of
playing her is a actor comedian, so

they do stand up as well, you see that,
you see that hint of like, even the

lines of, is this multiple choice, uh

Kevin: Gina Yashere is,

Rob: Gina Yashere.

British, British actor, performer.

She's, uh, doing a great job.

But they're not overusing her.

There's a, they, they, they,
that nice balance of how much

we see her, um, is great.

I love having a Klingon that
likes gardening and birdwatching.

Kevin: Jay-Den Kraag.

Yes.

Played by Karim Diané.

I, I think there's a lot more to
this guy than that we are going to

learn in a future episode or two.

Rob: much him in episode two, definitely.

Kevin: I'm very happy for them
to like, you know, pepper, pepper

these stories out in small doses.

Uh, he is very intriguing and, and I, I,
I would say very charismatic as a Klingon.

I, I can't wait to learn more about him.

Uh, Kerrice Brooks as SAM, the
Series Acclimation Mil, uh, holo

holographic character, programmed
to feel 17 and designed to

reconnect with, uh, organic life.

Uh, she is hilarious and funny.

Her, her cadence of saying things being
off is, is really, uh, delightful.

Um, yeah, good stuff.

Rob: Yeah, she's really, really good.

I like the fact, the, the nice little
drop of bat that she's a, a, a photonic,

think there's the proper phrasing.

She doesn't like to be called a hologram.

Um,

Kevin: I think that goes back
to a Voyager episode, actually.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, I do remember.

Yeah.

Um, and it'd be interesting to see her
relationship with, uh, the Doctor develop.

'Cause of course he doesn't want
to, you know, do anything other than

just his job and everyone annoys him.

Unless you join up for the opera.

It's great to have Robert Picardo back.

How wonderful is it having Picardo

Kevin: so good.

He's good.

He's even better than in Prodigy,
um, I liked him there too.

Uh, yeah, they're, they're, they're doing,
the writers are doing great work with him.

I feel like they know just how to use him.

He is, he is the same old doctor
in that he is just as awkward

and full of himself as ever.

But he has, he has learned humility on top
of that, so that it's an amazing blend.

Like he does not want to be SAM's
mentor because he, he knows better now.

Uh, and yet he's a great
mentor as a result.

Rob: Picardo's one of those great
theatrical American actors that gives

me a vibe of, say, René Auberjonois.

So when he was cast as the Doctor, I
went, well, he's filling in that role.

Like, you know, even, even in even, uh,
Leonard Nimoy in the original series

or, um, in, in TNG was the Captain,
Picard, uh, with, um Patrick Stewart.

But Picardo has such a theatrical flare
about him and what he brings to screen.

And so he just elevates a scene
so much more with this heightened

performance that's never over the top.

But it is that sense of he's not
just working, he's working every

element of the frame to get out
the best of, of his performance.

And he hasn't missed a beat, you know, he

Kevin: he's so

Rob: For, what, 30

Kevin: The, yeah, opening with
tricorder, medical tricorder.

Just like

Rob: Medical tricorder!

Kevin: So good.

When, uh, when Genesis, played
by Bella Shepard, who is another

character that I feel like there's
a lot of stories yet to be told,

Rob: and lots of new species,
like she's a new species.

Um, the arrogant jock guy
who's got a heart somewhere.

He's a new species that can
walk in, uh, in deep for eight

Kevin: Darem Reymi,
played by George Hawkins.

Yes.

Rob: Um, but I'm intrigued to find
out more about Genesis's character.

Her father's an admiral, so

Kevin: so a Starfleet brat.

Yeah.

But

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah, I can't wait to see
what, you know, she's, she's young and

inexperienced too, in her own way, and I
can't wait to see what mistakes she makes.

Rob: But so, um, em embracing
and open like SAM is struggling

and clearly being bullied and,
and, and not making connections.

And Genesis just goes, I got you.

I got you.

And that type of stuff is a great,
great thing to see, a great, um, a

great character that's genuinely open

Kevin: When Genesis was trying to
rescue Darem who was out on the

hull getting the, uh, serial number
from the programmable matter.

And, uh, first of all, there, I love
some of the subtle like this, this

episode was put together so well.

It had the time.

I think we've talked in recent episodes
about some of these, some of these

Star Trek episodes in Strange New
Worlds have felt a little rushed.

Like they came together at the last
minute and they missed details and

this felt like they went back twice
and three times to get it right.

When she's trying to rescue him from
the hull, she tries to transport

'em off and the computer reminds
us transporters are offline.

And it's, I feel like it's the third
time we hear transporters offline

from the computer in, in the last
few minutes, but they like, they take

a minute to realize this is a Star,
Star Trek show that people may be

watching as first time Star Trek fans.

And so they tell us again and they
take the moment to tell us again.

And I really like that, that, that, um.

They don't skip the details out of
expediency, they go through the process.

Uh, and then she tries to use
Commander Thok's, uh, access code,

which she overheard in Sickbay.

And that doesn't work because her
voice print doesn't, doesn't match.

So like these, like escalating attempts
that kind of world build about like

what are, what are the facilities
that our characters can draw on?

What are the constraints
that they are under?

And then finally she just says,
hello, can anyone help me?

I'm having an emergency.

And, and, uh, the Doctor appears, please
state the nature of the medical emergency.

It's so satisfying those layers leading
up to this, this character based payoff.

Um, just that, that thirty second moment,
um, for me is an, is like that is in a

nutshell what I love about this show.

Rob: Yes, taking that time definitely
to establish the realities and the

protocols and so there, so that if
you're watching for the first time,

you can just go, oh, they're not just
skipping things or short, you know,

taking shortcuts, um, which is vital
to establish the integrity of the show.

That it's something that can be
believed and they don't just, uh, do

shortcuts to get to a simple answer.

Kevin: If there's one weakness in all
of this, I'd say it's the bridge crew.

They do take the time to show us
their holographic profiles while, uh,

while uh, Chancellor Ake is studying
up on the shuttle to, to the Athena.

Rob: And introduces all of their names.

Kevin: Yeah.

They, they, they've
learned from that mistake.

Uh, but, uh, those characters are
still pretty paper thin at this point.

They, they, to me, are, are hairdos
and makeup jobs at this point.

Each of them has had about one
line of dialogue in order to

express their character so far.

So there's, there's plenty of
opportunity space still there, but,

Rob: and we didn't see any of
them in episode two, so it was

Kevin: I think that's just how this,
how this, uh, show is designed is that

that bridge crew is very secondary.

We'll see them now and then when
there is starship stuff to do.

Rob: A training mission.

An outing, an excursion.

Kevin: Yeah, they were
certainly charismatic.

Like I liked when, when, um, uh, Ake
said to put the ship in Academy mode and

they said, which program should we run?

And, and the, the, uh, lady at, at,
uh, at ops goes, Ooh, that's a fun one.

You know, uh, had, they had charming
moments, but yeah, there's, there's

a lot more to do there to turn
those into people I care about.

Rob: Definitely, definitely.

Um, it was good to have, uh, uh,
representatives from Betazed show up,

and I like that whole establishment
in episode two of, they've been out

of the federation since the Burn.

Um, 'cause, uh, because there was a big,
uh, arc in season four, I believe, of

getting Earth to join the Federation
again in Discovery, which I, missed.

Um,

Kevin: And that, that's our last, uh,
regular cast member of the cadets as well.

Zoë Steiner playing Tarima Sadal,
the the young, um, daughter of

the president of, uh, Betazed.

Rob: Yes.

With her in, uh, her blockers,
'cause she feels too much.

Kevin: Yes, that's a Tam Elbrun callback.

Uh, if you're keeping track
from TNG, uh, the Tin Man

episode that we talked about not

Rob: We have talked about that one.

Yes, that's right.

Kevin: Yeah, so there is precedent for
Betazoids who feel a little too much.

Uh, one thing I did notice is
none of these Betazoids have the

big uh, uh, contact lenses on.

I guess they, they had to tell
these actors, we won't make

you put contact lenses on.

Rob: I know.

Yeah, because they, they were doing it
right up to, um, Picard because they,

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's very recent.

that's a that's a pretty big change.

Rob: A massive change.

And they haven't explained it yet,

Kevin: They haven't.

Yeah, I, I don't think they will.

I think they'll just move on from that.

I really liked the, the, uh, world
building of Betazed and, and nine

light years of space walled themselves
off from the rest the galaxy and

that, that wall coming down is
what is, uh, being negotiated here.

I thought the negotiations
were all really fascinating.

Like the, this is what
the Federation is about.

This is why Betazed doubts it.

Like all of that stuff was, oh,
delectable world building, like stuff

that, you know, Discovery had things I
liked, but this was one of the things

I didn't like is Discovery gifted
itself with a whole big galaxy of the

future by jumping ahead all of that
time and did very little with it of,

Rob: You gotta spend more
time with Michael Burnham.

Michael Burnham has so much to
worry about and just I'm, you know,

you're just not considerate enough.

Kevin, think you really should,
uh, take a minute to check.

Kevin: So I hope the world building
continues, is what I'm saying.

Rob: I, I totally agree that that whole
episode, the focusing on a planet and

a culture that we've got to know in
Star Trek, and if you're seeing it

for the first time, welcome to it.

Um, but to take that time, why they
are suspicious, why they are cautious.

Establishing the isolationism and
the youth wanting to open up and see

the world, you know, connections to
George and Gracie with, um, wanting

to see a humpback whale and seeing,
you know, a, a a, a species so huge

that we are insignificant to them.

Kevin: Mm-hmm.

Rob: Um, those type of
philosophies within one culture.

So it's not just, you know, this race,
it's just got a pop, couple of bumps

on its face and they're all the same.

Going, no, the, the youth, the
adults, the, all that range,

uh, was, was beautiful to see.

And then the solution at the end,
of course, it's perfect Star Trek of

going, you know, we, we talk and we
share, and we compromise and we balance.

And I'm, they're going, yeah, they've
been doing this for 60 years, but

now it's being accused of being woke.

Kevin: I wonder if you felt the same.

There was something about the
staging of the two podiums and the

crowd around it that, that really
emphasized to me the awkwardness of

these galaxy defining negotiations
happening on in a public forum.

It was weird.

It's, it's not something that
Star Trek hasn't done before.

Like I think all the way back to Star Trek
four, where the Klingon is grandstanding

in the galactic senate about Kirk, uh,
you know, there shall be no peace as

long as Kirk lives all these sorts of

Rob: Remember this well, there
shall be no peace as long as

Kirk… Now that's theatricality
on a, on a, on a movie screen.

That guy

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

So we've had that set up before and for
some reason back then, uh, I believed it

and for some reason here I didn't believe
it and I can't quite put my finger on why.

Rob: Was it just because it
was literally just at a school?

Kevin: Yeah, maybe.

Rob: Like it's, it felt
like an assembly as

Kevin: Yeah, I needed a
few more alien delegates.

I've,

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm there going, this is like, I've been
in these assemblies when you've got a year

level in and they don't want to be paying
attention, you've got a kid with a zipper.

Um, the grand, you know, epic,
uh, galactic scale of this whole

thing was kind of reduced a little
bit when you're just going, eh,

they're just doing it in auditorium.

Kevin: Maybe it was just the step
down from the production values

of that first movie length episode
to, uh, an episode of the week.

Maybe that's what I was feeling as well.

Rob: It is definitely, you could
tell that they've sorta like

they've created a, a modular set
that can be shifted and changed to

represent many different things.

So they've put, they've
got not as much money.

They've been saying a lot, we haven't
got as much money as you think

we have, but they've using it as
best they can to make it look, uh,

Kevin: They do have a lot.

Like I've the, that, that,
that academy set is the largest

standing set in the United States.

Like the, they've combined two
sound stages to make it happen.

Uh, so yeah, it is incredible
having, having Bob Picardo up there

singing his opera, that is, uh, a
counterpoint to the negotiations.

And when things go wrong in the opera,
things go wrong in the negotiations.

It's, it, it was fun.

Rob: Lovely.

Even just the, like, the awkwardness of
that scene, there was just some moments,

like even the awkwardness of the podiums.

'cause like they had wood, but then
they had a clear barrier at the top.

And there was a

Kevin: going a little hard with the
Starfleet deltas, I have to say.

Rob: Lot of deltas.

Deltas in the fireworks.

Kevin: The Athena bridge looks
incredible, but there are two

things that bother me about it.

One is the, I'm gonna have to, I'm
gonna take some time to get used to the

programmable matter control surfaces.

Like when you just see the
stations, they're just like gray,

uh, gray speckled rectangles.

Uh, they do turn into screens and things
like that as needed for story purposes.

But when you just happen to see
someone standing in front of a control

panel, it's pretty boring back there.

There's no, no, no blinky
lights or, or pretty graphics.

But the second thing is all of the
chairs on the bridge have a, have

a stand or a base that is in the
shape of a white Starfleet delta.

And having every single chair have a white
Starfleet delta under it is a bit much.

Like, use your logo sparingly,
I feel, is a, is a lesson these

designers haven't learned.

Rob: Yeah, less is more sometimes.

Kevin: Yeah.

Anything you wanna talk about
before we dive into the past

adventures of Starfleet Academy?

Rob: Um, yeah, I think you are
right again about like Caleb walked

that fine balance of, you know,
not completely golden boy shifted.

He's still got, he's still got those
elements of like, part of it was quite,

you know, cringe and annoying and
they're going, oh, he's so annoying.

But that's the whole point.

And then for him to get comeuppance
for that, like getting sprayed with

the mucus and getting sprayed the snot.

Um, I think the forced tension
between him and, uh, the young, uh,

Betazoid was a little bit forced.

I'm going, you've only known each
other a couple of minutes and they're

putting in drama for the sake drama

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: So they can have that resolution.

Um, but I do like that point of,
you know, he is, it's something

they're doing a lot in modern Star
Trek of, you know, Michael Burnham,

Christopher Pike, and now, uh, Giorgiou
and now, uh, Ake and Caleb as well.

Sort of like how the Federation
is working against them, or how

they are like, you know, Burnham
was a criminal brought back in.

Ake has, you know, like taken time off
because of, you know, she's traumatized

by what happened 15 years ago.

Pike's run away because he's
running away from his, uh, destiny.

It's a lot of people, those opening
scenes are going, we need you back.

We need you back.

Kevin: I'm too old for this.

Rob: I can't do it.

I can't get back into it.

Kevin: Just when I thought I was out, they

Rob: yeah, pull me back in.

Um, but yeah, that balance of sort
of like the relationship of Caleb and

Ake is developing at a nice pace and,
um, the young actor playing Caleb has

got the sweetest job in the world.

He gets to do so many one-on-one
scenes with Holly Hunter.

So lucky, lucky boy.

Kevin: What do you think of her office?

The, the, uh, the dark, uh, the dark
den with the, uh, with the kind of curvy

seats around the fire made of, of tiles,
again, featuring the, the Starfleet

Rob: So many frigging deltas.

Um, yeah.

And her display of, uh, vinyl
records of The Grateful Dead.

So I'm there going, yeah, it's not
very homely, but it is an office.

So I guess it's more, you know,
trying to bring out the quirk.

Kevin: It has been said, it reminds
people of, uh, Captain Kirk's apartment

at the start of Star Trek II, where it's
full of old things and it has a similar

fireplace with curved tile surfaces.

I feel like they are, they're playing
on that, and the fact that they're

both set in San Francisco works

Rob: Of course, of course.

No, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy with it.

And those parts that were kind of,
not annoying, but things that kind of

sat sat a little bit, uh, awkward for
me is stuff that, um, was balanced

out beautifully with stuff I just
went, this is really good, Star Trek.

So, um, I'm trying to phase out
the, the din of negativity that

the internet always brings.

'Cause there's a lot to enjoy here.

No matter what type of
Star Trek fan you are.

Kevin: I was, I was spoiled for, for good
stuff that I am happy to overlook the, the

moment here, there that didn't quite work.

Yeah.

Rob: Two episodes in and I'm already
enjoying it more than Discovery.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Uh, I am, I, I say it every season,
but I'm already sad this is going

to be over in eight more episodes.

Rob: Well, yeah, we're not
gonna, it, it, there's potential.

I mean, I'm there going, this is something
that could go for a couple of years, but

Kevin: I think Alex Kitzman
has said this is a series that

by design could go forever.

And I think what he means is there,
the, the second episode starts with

like fall semester, and I think
that there is gonna be a passage

of time here, and if this goes long
enough, there will be graduations

and there will be new arrivals, and
that this could be a rolling cast.

Rob: Yeah, exactly.

That.

It, it's, it's to find the formula
of how to make it work, and they've

figured it out going, you know, the
ship is also the campus and it could

be in one location, it can go to space.

It's sort of like you can
have your cake and eat it too.

Kevin: Uh, it was fun to see
Jett Reno back, uh, in episode

two, uh, played by Tig Notaro.

She had a fun scene.

Rob: Tig Notaro is always great and
we will have some more appearances

from Discovery people, but,
and she did great as a teacher.

What a great teacher.

Kevin: Yeah, she did good.

I hope that's not all we see of her,
but I wouldn't be shocked if it was.

Rob: Yeah, probably maybe
one or two appearances.

We've got Tilly coming up soon as well, so

Kevin: I think Tilly is very
much just gonna be a one-off.

And, and maybe not even that big,
like special appearance is kind

of what has been, uh, touted.

So I'm not expecting much, but I, I'll
be curious to know whether Tig Notaro

is a recurring, a recurring face.

Rob: Yes.

Oh, and Boothby Memorial Park.

That was

Kevin: Oh, yes.

Rob: That was lovely.

Kevin: Speaking of Boothby, about
Starfleet Academy, uh, this kickoff

of this new series set in this,
uh, place feels like as good an

opportunity as any to reflect on other
appearances of Starfleet Academy,

even if they were centuries before.

Uh, where do you wanna start, Rob?

Rob: Let's go with an episode that
we have talked about before many,

many times, especially when we're in
our, uh, our deep Lower Decks phase.

Let's go to The First Duty.

Not the first duty.

We're not doing a, any, uh, toilet
humor here, thank you very much.

We're a sophisticated podcast.

Uh, so we're going all the way back
to, uh, season five, episode 19 of TNG.

Um, uh, with The First Duty,
with Nick Locarno, with Wesley

Crusher and, uh, Joshua Albert's,
uh, tragic passing as well.

Um, so this has been mentioned many,
many times and I had not seen this

episode when, uh, the big reveal at
the end of that season of Lower Decks

was all about Nick Locarno's return.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: It was great to go back
to where it all started.

Kevin: Yes, uh, this, uh, incarnation
of Starfleet Academy is set, uh,

like it is a location shoot at the
Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation

plant just outside of Los Angeles.

It has a, it is a sewage plant, uh,
but it has a Japanese garden attached

to it, and I have looked it up.

That Japanese garden is open
to the public still today.

You can visit it Mondays to
Thursdays, I think it said on their

website, uh, and it's free entry!

So next time, if, if ever I find
myself in Los Angeles again with a

spare afternoon, I might just see
if I can go and visit Starfleet

Academy, because it is still there.

Rob: Find that tree.

Find that tree and see

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rob: have been sitting

Kevin: Yeah, a lovely spot.

Uh, I think the, the location
is pretty, uh, pretty special.

It had been seen before in Star Trek,
uh, TNG, season one, episode eight,

Justice, which is the one where
Wesley falls into the plant bed and

the, the god of the scantily clad
aliens wants to put him to death.

That is the same Japanese garden that
we're seeing there as Starfleet Academy.

Uh, and it comes back in, in
future episodes of, of Voyager

and stuff like that too.

Rob: think it's in Deep
Space Nine as well.

I think

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There was a, a Homefront episode I
think that may uh, had a, uh, at least

a, a redoing of the matte painting
extension of this, uh, uh, location, if

not actual sh shots on that location.

But yeah, I feel like this is Starfleet
Academy in its most fully fleshed form

that we have experienced before, and The
First Duty we spend the most time there.

Rob: Definitely.

We see, um, the people in charge.

We see the cadets, uniforms, the the, we
find a little bit about the, the structure

of there and how like Nova Squadron is
like the elite of the elite and how,

you know, everyone wants to get within
there, into that, uh, into that group.

Uh, they're getting close to their
graduation, so it's uh, how, how they

run through disciplinary action and,
uh, the culture of Starfleet is, and

Starfleet Academy is kind of hinted at.

We see, you know, nice little
tidbits of it revealed.

Kevin: Yeah, the, um, the superintendent
that we meet is Admiral Brand.

I noticed that she is an admiral, but,
uh, as far as I can tell Chancellor

Nahla Ake is still a captain.

Rob: Captain and Chancellor.

Yep.

Kevin: So you, you back, back here in
the 24th century, it was an admiral's

posting to be the head of Starfleet
Academy, but it, that has been a, a

demoted position in the 32nd century,

Rob: Well, yeah, I guess it's because,
you know, they now have, you know,

they have a ship that is their campus.

So an admiral is only, you know, is
always bound, uh, you know, tera bound.

So having a captain, that means they
can fly around and do excursions.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, the location of this, uh, which is
established mostly by matte paintings

of the Golden Gate Bridge in the
background is pretty canonically

on the north side of the bridge.

To the east, uh, inland side.

And, uh, it has fluctuated a little
bit in the JJ Abrams movies, for

example, Starfleet Academy was on
the southern side of the bridge.

Uh, but fair enough, in an alternate
universe, maybe they made a slightly

different city planning decision.

Rob: Exactly.

Kevin: In most places, including both here
in Star Trek, The Next Generation and in

the far off future in Starfleet Academy,
it's on the north side of the bridge.

And that today is an area
called Horseshoe Bay.

It's fairly unpopulated.

I'm told It has a small
museum on the spot.

Uh, but in the various matte paintings
and CG renderings of this space over

the years, it has been quite expanded
with, uh, futuristic buildings and

Tilly's tree as we learned in Discovery.

Rob: Tilly's tree has moved around a bit

Kevin: it has moved around a bit.

Rob: Sometimes it's there
and sometimes it's not.

Kevin: There's a great webpage at, uh, the
Ex Astris Scientia website called Locating

Starfleet Buildings in San Francisco,
where they go shot by shot, period by

period, uh, through the history of Star
Trek and go, well, in this movie, at this

time it was here and looked like this.

And at the end, they have a, an
overhead map where they mark everything.

Very satisfying for people who
love these details like I do.

So, uh, yeah, take a look in the
show notes if you would like to.

It has already been updated for Starfleet
Academy with, uh, with what has changed

and what has not in, in this incarnation.

It has changed even since
we saw it in Discovery.

So yeah, have a look if
you want those details.

Rob: Please do.

Um, so yeah, it was good to finally
watch that episode to see the,

the turmoil within, uh, Wesley of,
uh, his loyalty to his squadron.

Uh, the, uh, intimidating nature of
Locarno, but also his ultimate, uh,

taking of full responsibility, um,
which plays out later in Lower Decks.

Jean-Luc Picard's
relationship with Wesley.

Kevin: Yeah, the dressing down in the
ready room is a really powerful scene.

Rob: Very much so.

And just the way I was watching it, like
it just, Wesley always seemed out of

focus a little bit and anytime it cut
back to Picard, he was in like full HD.

I'm there going, don't, come on, don't
do that to, my man Wesley, come on.

Kevin: Some of these TNG episodes
do suffer from that, where the focus

was close enough for, for TV at the
time, and, uh, from one shot to the

next, it goes soft and not soft.

Rob: Definitely a case of, you
know, Patrick Stewart's our star.

We'll keep him in focus.

Okay.

Or we've gotta quickly get, we've
gotta quickly get, uh, Wesley in shots.

Kevin: I'll make this
simple for you, Mr. Crusher.

Either you tell them what happened or

Rob: Oh, I will.

Uh, his scenes with Boothby were great.

I love Ray Walston.

He's such a wonderful actor.

I used to love him on, uh, I've
mentioned this before on Picket

Fences was his last big thing.

Uh, but yeah, tantalizing stuff.

I know you know this more than
I do, but they mention the

incident that happened at the

Kevin: Yeah.

As far as I can tell, we never,
we never learn what that was.

Rob: Right?

'cause we know about the, the
bar fight where he got stabbed,

Kevin: Yeah, that was somewhere else.

Uh, yeah, that was somewhere
else on a star base somewhere.

Rob: So that's all we know.

That tantalizing bit of going,
that thing that happened.

You were very angry.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

It's, uh, it's good.

Nice to have a mystery still
about uh, Jean-Luc Picard.

Uh, yeah, I enjoyed it too.

I enjoyed the confidence of not
having to tell us that bit either,

letting it be Wesley's story.

Um, yeah.

Good stuff.

I, speaking of world building, I love
the stuff about, you know, maneuvers

around Saturn and we, we got you,
we got a picture of you just as you

were, uh, passed into sensor range
of a, of a probe around one of the

moons, and yeah, it was, it was, yeah.

Nice stuff.

Rob: Using, yeah, using, creating that
reality of what could be captured.

So it wasn't like it said, we got a photo
at that particular moment, as opposed

to, oh, we've got perfectly high quality
footage that runs for the entire time.

It's you working within the reality
of this, a advanced society, which

I find really, really exciting.

Kevin: Yeah.

I like the procedural of the hearing.

I like, you know, Wesley standing
up and narrating the footage

from his flight recorder.

Like all that stuff, I
really, I eat that stuff up.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, so it was good to finally watch
it, to see that whole and seeing that

balance of what we get in Starfleet
Academy of the older statesmen and

how the kids deal with it as well.

that kid that, you know, how Nova Squadron
debate and argue and, uh, and, and sort

of like close ranks around each other,
and then how Picard and the rest of the

crew try and help solve this mystery.

Kevin: It's a great example of the
things that Starfleet cadets can

do in a Star Trek story that you
could never get away with writing

that story about Starfleet officers.

We decided to break the rules and got
caught and now we're gonna lie about it.

And our, our dilemma is, should we
keep lying about it or come clean?

Like that is not a story you can tell
about Starfleet officers who are, who

are in, in the chain of command and, you
know, will appear next week as a, uh,

fully a fully fledged member of the crew.

But it is, these are the kinds of
mistakes that cadets can make and

I'm really looking forward to this
new series because we get to hear

some of these kinds of stories.

Rob: Yeah, literally going, you know, if
I was in your position, I would do it.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Rob: You're going, great.

Awesome.

That you could never get that.

Yeah.

Like you said, you could never
get that with, you know, fully

fleshed Starfleet officers.

Kevin: Yeah.

We return to this same location
for Starfleet Academy in Star Trek:

Voyager, season five, episode four,
In The Flesh, which is another episode

we've talked about before, I think
in our going undercover episode.

We talked about it because Chakotay
is, is very much undercover as, uh, as

a, as a love interest in this episode.

Rob: Brings out his dogue
quality, brings out his dogue.

Kevin: This is the one where
Voyager happens upon a simulation

of Starfleet Academy being
created by Species 8472, preparing

Rob: is there

Kevin: Federation.

And Boothby just happens
to be the big commander.

He is this, he is the ranking
officer in this simulation.

Rob: can get Ray Walston
back, put him in charge.

Kevin: Exactly.

I, I feel like even though it's
not the real Boothby, Boothby is

somewhat, he suffers from too much
of a good thing, in this episode.

He's kind of stops being Boothby,
which is kind of fine because

it's not the real Boothby.

But, uh, but yeah, there's a little too
much, uh, uh, "sunny boy" about, uh, uh,

uh, in, in this episode for my liking.

Rob: Because he never does
any of that in First Duty.

It's really beautifully written
about how, you know, that beautiful

line of going, you know, you
are at the age now that I was.

Kevin: Yeah, he is.

He is.

He is non sentimental, if anything, in
First Duty where, yeah, I think they

write him a bit differently here, which
you can, you can look past because

it's an alien pretending to be Boothby.

But yeah, that, that, um, that last
moment in First Duty where he runs

off the list of names in Nova Squadron
and he goes, Yeah, I know them.

I know them all.

And he walks off and Picard's like, oh

Rob: Ooh.

Kevin: That's, that's the
Boothby I know and love.

Rob: But yeah, that we get little
tantalizing hints about like

the social activities of what
they do through the simulation.

Like, you know, what their nightlife
is like at, uh, at Starfleet Academy.

At least mentioned in, In The Flesh.

Kevin: They expand on it a bit here.

They mention Starfleet Academy.

They also mention, uh, the
Starfleet Command complex.

Like apparently the simulation encompasses
the entire Starfleet Command complex,

including this like nightclub or bar
where, where a few scenes are set.

They mention Starfleet
Headquarters as well.

So there, there is a bit of ambiguity
around these, these things and

like, what is their hierarchy.

But the sense I get is that Starfleet
Headquarters includes Starfleet Command

and Starfleet Academy and that, that
that Japanese garden area is, are

the grounds of Starfleet Academy.

Yes.

But Starfleet command is right next door.

Like you could walk there.

Rob: Yes.

The Academy and the Command
are right next to each other.

Yeah.

Kevin: the TV series we have the, uh,
the War College as well, established.

Rob: something we didn't
get to talk about.

Yeah.

The, the, and what that meant.

'cause they had the War College
during the years of the Burn.

Um, and this is the, this is the first
year of the, the Academy opening up.

And it's working at the same time
as, um, the War College, which

is run by a guy that looks like
Arnold Rimmer from Red Dwarf.

Kevin: He does too.

I hadn't even picked that.

Rob: So this is way before,
you know, this is Voyager time.

So this is way before the, uh, James
T. Kirk Pavilion or the unknown, I

had looked up, there is no actual
Turner within the canon of they, they

make such a point of talking about.

Kevin: Yeah, they said it so many times.

I was like, am I supposed
to know who that is?

Rob: And

Kevin: We, we, we don't need to know
every name, but when they say it that

often, uh, I think that there could
have been a little more done to make

clear that this is, this is someone new.

Rob: They've literally got a wall
with every single character who

has ever appeared in Star Trek on.

That's an

Kevin: divisive.

Some people are like, this is a point
I have made before that if, if every

story that we have seen is referenced
again and again, and every character

is referenced again and again, it
actually kind of shrinks the size of

the world to just what we have seen.

If everyone knows each other's names, and
have heard all of these stories as well,

there isn't a sense of a wider universe
out there going on around them, which

is the thing that I find satisfying.

That wall having like 90% of the names
are characters we have seen some,

some of them in just one episode,
it, it, it does shrink the universe.

And I do feel that.

I also see the counter argument that
the pe they, the true heroes, the people

worth telling stories about are the ones
that they would make these historical

documents about, and we have seen

Rob: Those poor people.

Kevin: and that there is a wider
universe out there, but most of what

goes on out there is more mundane.

And we are seeing all the
good stuff in these episodes.

I don't know about that.

I think I am more on the side of,
I would prefer, I would prefer

one in 10 recognizable names and
the sense that there's the 90% out

there that we've never heard of yet.

Rob: Yeah.

Now I wanna get your opinion on this.

Go back to it, sorry.

Um, like you see in the
background, they have flashes of

quotes from people on the walls.

And, but they're like doing
quotes from episodes where people

were just having conversations.

So I'm there going, how

Kevin: everything recorded?

Yeah.

Rob: And you know, what we learned
from the, uh, that bad episode from,

uh, a Strange New World season three,
apparently everything is filmed.

Um, but

Kevin: Spock, uh, you know, Spock
said something in a cave once,

and now it's projected in 3D
in Michael Burnham's quarters.

Yeah, there's been a bit of that.

Rob: Yeah, that, that, that part of me
takes, it, takes it outta me a little bit.

If it was done like in big speech section
or something like that, I go, okay,

everyone heard it, it was recorded.

I'm there going, dude, this
was done like in a cave.

was,

Kevin: a secret mission.

Yeah.

Rob: But, yeah, they're definitely
taking tantalizing elements that

they've touched on in previous
episodes, but now expanding it into a

full show is, is really, really fun.

And another one I was gonna
bring, I watched it last night and

then I led into watching Beyond.

I actually watched the 2009 film and I
hadn't watched that in over 10 years.

Kevin: Yeah.

There's a fair bit at
Starfleet Academy there.

I haven't watched that recently.

Rob: Yeah, it's the, the, the issues
I have with it are still there.

Um, and, uh, I think like, 'cause
I always thought Beyond was better,

but rewatching them back to back,
I think, I think I still prefer,

um, the first film in many ways.

Um, but yeah, there is that element
you've seeing the Kobayashi Maru actually

recreated, um, is funny and so much of
them on campus walking around in their

cadet outfits and going to class, even
though Karl Urban looks like he's 50.

Even though he was like quite
a young man at that time.

Kevin: Yes indeed.

Rob: But yeah, so I watched the, uh,
the, the 2009 Kelvin movie, uh, to get

a little hint of, you know, that first
attempt at doing a, you know, what had

been wanting to be done for 30, 30 years,

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, I mean, speaking of the Kobayashi
Maru, the one I was gonna bring up

was, uh, Star Trek II: The Wrath
of Khan, the opening of which

takes place on a simulation of the
Enterprise Bridge and everyone dies in,

Yeah, indeed.

And, um, and then Kirk and Spock
walk out onto a teeny tiny set, which

if you read the lore, like there is
basically one shot of Starfleet Academy.

In the background, the signage actually
says Starfleet Training Command.

So this is even before the establishment
of Starfleet Academy as, as a term.

I think we have heard mentions of back
at the academy and stuff, but yeah,

when they came to creating it for the
first time in Star Trek II, they, they

labeled it Starfleet Training Command.

And it is, it is a tiny hallway in front
of a door and then there is a wide shot

where Kirk and Spock are relatively small
and there's a bunch of foreground detail.

And apparently to stretch their
budget, that foreground is actually

a miniature, and the camera is
shooting through a miniature at the

tiny piece of set that they had.

And it makes it look like
a bigger space than it is.

Rob: I love that.

I love that trickery.

Love that old, old school trickery.

Um, but yeah, great seeing
the Kobayashi Maru acted out.

That beautiful shot of Kirk
entering the set for the first time.

All the back lighting and smoke.

Oh,

Kevin: Lights.

Rob: Yep.

Seeing Kirstie Alley, try her

Kevin: Yeah.

Saavik complaining that it wasn't a
fair test of her command abilities.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

And "Physician, heal thyself." is
my favorite line in that scene.

Rob: Yeah.

Excellent.

Excellent work.

"Aren't you dead?"

Kevin: Such good stuff.

It's, yeah.

Yeah.

The first 12 minutes of that movie are
at Starfleet Command, and then, yeah,

if you watch that, it's hard not to
watch the rest of the movie right away.

Rob: Well, yeah.

It's, it's, it's so, it's so moorish.

You just wanna more and more.

Come on.

It's incredible.

It's the perfect Star Trek film.

Kevin: There are a bunch of connections
in that, like the, in that first 12

minutes, like McCoy gives, uh, Kirk
the birthday present of the glasses.

We have Chancellor Ake on the bridge
reading with actual glasses, uh,

that were established as, as rare.

You don't find many with the lenses still
intact says McCoy in the 23rd century.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: So, so yeah, ake has
done something special to

Rob: But weren't they
a gift from Dr. McCoy?

And they will be again.

That's the beauty of it.

I'll give you $100.

Is that lot?

Mmm.

Kevin: Uh, yeah, and, and there's the
Kobayashi Maru in 2009 where Kirk, uh,

spends the whole time eating an apple.

And then we have, uh, Caleb,
uh, biting into a, a very

spicy apple in Ake's quarters.

So the connections just, just keep coming.

Rob: And then it's used
as an element of trust.

'cause then she throws, is it a
still fire fruit or is it an apple?

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: I can kind of get, like, Ake still
has glasses 'cause she's like, you

know, you know, hundreds of years old.

Um, and so, and connecting with
the past and stuff like that.

But there's been a lot of discourse
about like, 'cause one of the

characters is, uh, in a wheelchair.

One of the other characters is in glasses,
which is great representation all there.

But the whole thing of going,
that's not Roddenberry's future,

I'm going, oh, good heavens.

Oh, just, just stop.

Just stop.

Kevin: Well, I think we have, uh, we
have covered these, these episodes and

taken a look back on Starfleet Academy.

I am ready to go.

Let's, let's bring on more episodes.

Rob: Do we have 10 episodes this season?

Kevin: Yeah, we have 10 episodes.

Rob: Eight to go.

Kevin: One of which has been described
as a love letter to Deep Space Nine, Rob.

Rob: I thought you were gonna
say there's one that, because

you leaned in, uh, viewers, he
leaned right into the view screen.

I thought he was gonna say, 'cause I
think I've seen some of the trailers.

It's gonna get a bit sexy.

Kevin: Oh, I'm sure that'll happen.

You don't hire this many, this many
young, attractive people and not throw

them into bed together now and then.

Rob: The actor playing Caleb is
built like an, you know, excuse my

language, like a brick shithouse.

How, and apparently he had to lose weight.

Kevin: Wow.

Rob: He, he's like a
bodybuilder apparently.

And like he is huge.

He is massive.

He, he craps bigger than me.

Kevin: There's a shot where he, uh, he's
like standing in the, in the light and he

is got his shoulder forward to show you
that one bump that no one else can get.

Rob: Nobody, nobody.

Just stop it.

Kevin: The that if, if he
moved it would all come apart.

Yeah.

Rob: I, I started, I get, I, I broke
out into a sweat just looking at that.

Kevin: I love watching him
standing next to, uh, Holly Hunter.

And they are using it.

There are, there, like in Beta Test
there was a shot going up some stairs

where they put the two tall men
at the top of the stairs and they

put Holly Hunter halfway down the
flight of stairs talking up at them.

So they are, they are emphasizing, if
anything, her, her diminutive size, which

Rob: nature.

Um, I'll be very interested to
see, uh, this love letter to Deep

Space Nine, what it focuses on.

'cause there are many elements of
Deep Space Nine that make it unique.

Kevin: We just had a love letter
to Deep Space Nine in Lower Decks.

So I'm curious what they feel
they've got to give us here.

Rob: Let's just go
around the pylons again.

Just fly around those

Kevin: Could still be there?

It couldn't possibly still be there.

Rob: Terok Nor could not be
there, especially with the Burn.

It would've, yeah, it would've
been around a thousand.

Oh, Maybe

Kevin: Did it have a warp reactor?

I don't think it did.

Maybe, you know, Maybe it did

Rob: We could, well, maybe it's
been set up as some sort of like

a museum piece on Bajor and we
have been to Bajor for so far.

Yeah.

Kevin: So Bajor was not behind
the, the Betazed curtain.

Rob: No, no, it was not.

They were, they were serving
ice cream to the children.

Kevin: The green child was hired for
the, the, look that she could give of,

uh, shut up and give me my ice cream.

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

you you have one particular
skill set you lean into that.

Kevin: Yeah.

So good.

Rob: But yes, Star Trek is back.

It is exciting.

It is, uh, fun.

It is good to watch.

And we are, uh, we are back into it.