Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin,

Rob: and me, Rob,

Kevin: and we are here to talk about
the season three finale of Star Trek:

Strange New Worlds New Life and New

Rob: New Civilizations.

Kevin: Uh, new life and new civilizations.

Well, we visited, uh,
we visited a new planet,

Rob: we did.

Kevin: a civilization, this episode.

Rob: There was a, a civilization
that has been come under

the influence of the Vezda.

Kevin: Mm indeed.

And they have, uh, they have, um,
double pyramids in all of their cities.

Rob: They really do and they, you know,
they influence their, their followers so

much that they poke out their own eyes?

Kevin: Rob, I can hear us both beating
about the bush around on this episode.

What are your thoughts of this
grand finale of the season?

Rob: Look, look it, it,
it was, it was okay.

It was okay.

There were some moments in there
that really stood out that were magic

and wonderful and it's, it's, it's
amazing to watch an episode that

Kevin: There was certainly some magic in
this episode, and I don't say that kindly.

Rob: Yes.

Uh, using the Asimov thing of, you
know, advanced science and magic are

Kevin: They literally say, well,
this might as well be magic.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Um, little bit of, uh, uh, Pike had
his own Inner Light moment at the end,

Kevin: So that stuff was, I think, the
successful emotional core of this episode.

Rob: Very much so.

Uh, heavy lifting from Melanie
Scrofano and Anson Mount.

They were on fire this

Kevin: They were on fire, not just
in the big moments at the end of the

episode, but in the small moments
at the start of the episode, they,

they were firing on all cylinders.

You know, you can always tell when
it's a character's exit because

they are especially charismatic
in the first scene of the episode.

Rob: When they're hugging each other,
walking through the corridors going,

can we just have 72 hours of nothing?

I'm going,

Kevin: me to your cabin.

Rob: Yeah, I'm there going well, goodbye.

Well, that's the last we're seeing of her.

That answers the question
of what happens to Batel.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, but apart from that emotional
center and the performance of these

two character actors, I, I did
not care for most of this episode.

Rob: I love your, I did
not care for this, Robert.

Yes, there were some moments that,
like all the heavy lifting they did in

the previous uh, episode, um, kind of
came undone, the return of Gamble, and

he was quite ridiculous and one note.

Uh, his costume was
unintentionally, ridiculous.

Kevin: Oh yeah.

Rob: The suit, the thing covering his eyes

Kevin: You are so right.

When they were walking up behind
him and I'm like, well, it's Gamble.

Like, it's obviously Gamble.

Uh, but the horns were there and I
didn't realize, but I, I was predisposed

to not liking what they were gonna
do with him because the, because of

the, the big shoulders and the horns.

I was like, come on.

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

It, it came across as,
well, this is costume.

Kevin: He was such a charismatic
character when he was Gamble to

make him a non charismatic villain
was, it felt like such a shame.

Rob: It was very one note.

That, especially with last episode
he was in, there was a menace, there

was a, a cruelty, there was morbid
glee he had and sort of like torturing

his, uh, prey before he killed them.

Kevin: And the setup of this civilization
that worships them as gods is enticing.

It would've been nice to see him
behave as a worship worthy god.

Like what is the
charismatic version of that?

That the Starfleet can
be going No, no, no.

Don't buy into it.

But you can see why they do.

But it's like, no, poke your
eyes out for I'm your god.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's some nice moments like, um,
uh, M'Benga and Una acting drunk.

That was quite cute.

Um, uh, and, um, okay,
well let's, let's, uh,

Kevin: There, there ends
the, the cute moments.

Rob: Let's, let's, uh, let's deal with
the mind meld that came earlier than,

uh, as actually the first mind meld
that apparently happened in the original

series, but now they're doing another

Kevin: Yeah, I feel that ship has sailed.

Rob: Fast and loose.

Kevin: When it is introduced as
a concept in, in the original

series, it is kind of like.

But so many other things have been this.

Like we were talking about Katras
earlier in this series, and I was like,

how does anyone know about Katras?

I thought they were a tightly kept
secret that we do not discuss with

outsiders and, and mind melds were
in that same list for me, that when

they come out in the original series,
there is this moment where you can tell

Spock does not want to discuss it, but
the needs of the moment require it.

And here they're kind of like,
well, let's go to the bar.

There's a lot of people
around, but, uh, it's okay.

We'll talk Jim Kirk into it here.

Um, the fact that Jim Kirk's
captain is a Vulcan who can

presumably steer her ship just fine.

Like why does it need to be, Jim Kirk
is not clear at all other than the,

to, to service the fans, as it were.

Rob: And the, the actual element
of a mind meld has be, uh, there's,

had a lot of weight put onto it.

So like with the Katras, sort of
like this, this almost mythological

type process or what it means.

And especially with the original movies,
the, the process of a mind meld could

be quite invasive and violent in a way,
especially between, um, uh, Spock and

when he's torturing, uh, Kim Cattrall.

Um, no matter how distressed that Spock
was, that he was doing it, um, uh, Kim

Cattrall was a lot more, uh, distressed.

Just to use it now for a gag so that now
Kirk knows that Spock is with La'an and

to do a bit of a, and you're going, eh.

Kevin: Yeah.

it's hard not to smile.

Like when they were working in
synchronicity and, and Pelia is like,

oh, they're moving in beautiful motion.

And, and like,

Rob: that is a flawless, that is a
flawless Carol Kane impersonation.

Kevin: In a better episode, the
mind meld would've bothered me more.

But for me, this is the least of its sins.

Rob: enough.

Kevin: Good science fiction, I, I like to
say, invites you to believe one impossible

thing, and then explore what might be true
if that one impossible thing were true.

And this episode, by my count, has at
least four impossible things, and that's

even before we get to the mind meld that
enables Spock and Kirk to steer their

ships at exactly the same time across
some distance of the vacuum of space.

Rob: fire a phaser blast that is
equal to half the power of a sun.

Kevin: Oh two batteries.

I, I love that moment.

Come on.

Scotty, still e even in an
episode like this can do no wrong.

Rob: Martin Quinn is
doing a wonderful job.

That's for damn sure.

Kevin: Uh, so we had the Vezda rebuild
gamble's body and trigger the transporter

from inside the transporter buffer.

The line of dialogue is,
Is that even possible?

And sp says, I would've
said no, until now.

Until the plot of this episode

Rob: Needs it, so Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin: Uh, we know interdimensional
space folds along those,

oh, what do you call 'em?

Ley lines.

As soon as they said ley lines, I groaned.

Uh, Spock looks dubious at the
suggestion that ley lines are a thing.

Uh, but of course, Sam Kirk is there to,
to say, literally no, they're a thing.

And then Scotty presses a couple of
buttons and a map of them appears

on the tabletop just like that.

So something is, is either unbelievable
to exist or there is a map of them,

but both of these things are true 10
seconds apart in the same episode.

Um, this whole thing of
destiny and prophecy.

Like the last time I feel like we
were laying on the trowl of destiny

this thick was Star Trek Section 31

Rob: Ah, yeah.

Kevin: when, where it, it explained away
a thousand coincidences in that movie.

And in this episode, someone
actually says, too many coincidences.

Can I tell you about
the concept of destiny?

I think you'll find it explains
everything convincingly, including

how M'Benga's life story is scrawled
on this, this, uh, this piece of, of

impenetrable rock on an alien world.

Rob: And they put so much in no
M'Benga needs to be down there.

He made a connection with Gamble, and
as soon as his plot purpose is served,

he is literally knocked out and not
seen for the rest of the episode.

Kevin: Then last, but certainly not
least, the, the fundamental premise of

this episode that, um, Batel has gotten
enough transfusions from other races

that she now is the sum total of all
races', ability to fight Capital E, Evil.

Rob: So she's not just Gorn,
she's Gorn, Human, Illyrian

Kevin: and Chimera Blossom.

Rob: And Chimera Bl— Yes.

Yes.

And I think she walked past,

Kevin: somehow those four
round up to all races,

Rob: she walked past a Vulcan.

So she's got a bit of Vulcan.

Um, yes.

Um, look, that's the

Kevin: should have transformed her into
a Vulcan in that Vulcan episode, so they

could have added something to that list.

Rob: Yeah.

Um, uh, yes,

Kevin: I can see what they were going for.

We have an episodic show where
every episode stands alone and is

a complete story in its own right.

But here at the end of the season,
we're gonna do something unexpected.

We are going to reveal that all
of these episodes contributed to a

grand conclusion that you could not
foresee and our characters could

not foresee, and it feels like fate.

That is not what the experience of
watching this episode was, though.

This episode felt like a cheap sequel
to a not very good episode earlier

in the season, and, and a couple of
other, uh, things hand waved away

as, uh, improbable, improbable con
coincidences we were asked to allow.

Rob: And we need to have an, an
element of sacrifice because so many

of our cast are continuity impervious.

So Batel is someone who is expendable.

Um, and we need to have that element
of, you know, she, we've only

Kevin: Not only expendable, but
superfluous to canon because at a certain

point we have to get Pike to a place where
his ideal future is to spend hi the rest

of his life in that fantasy with Vina.

Rob: With, with Melissa

Kevin: Of course.

Yes.

Rob: Never gonna forget that, Melissa
George, if you are listening and I know

you do listen to our podcast, well, I will
not forget that you, Melissa George, were

in season two of Discovery playing Vina.

Well done Aussie Melissa George.

Kevin: You know, Melissa George probably
has fewer degrees of separation from us

than most Star Trek, uh, cast members.

And so I think we do have a shot of
getting Melissa George into our audience.

Rob: Oh, if, if we could, if Melissa,
if you are, if you are listening, uh,

just reach out to us, um, uh, on BlueSky
and, um, let's, uh, let's organize.

You could be our first special, our
second special guest on the show.

Kevin: Absolutely.

We'll, we'll find something
to talk about with you.

Rob: Yes.

Um, but let's talk about the,
the highlight of the episode,

Kevin: Yeah.

The, the Inner Light sequence, as it were.

Rob: Where we see Pike's, he's given the
gift by Batel, really, of what his life

could have been, um, the long, fruitful,
happy life, him and Marie having children.

The disaster never happens.

Um,

Kevin: The log cabin timeline.

Rob: Log cabin timeline.

Take that, Kelvin timeline.

Kevin: That's right.

Rob: Um, where we have children,
where we have um, uncle Sock.

Kevin: Yes, uncle Sock.

We had the dog.

I wish we had found the dog's name.

That would've been a nice touch.

Rob: The dog was beautiful.

Kevin: We had the, the devastating scene
of them sitting on the couch, and Pike

has to go on his mission that he knows
goes wrong, and the, the, the heart to

heart of this, this couple with, with,
uh, with a kid, and everything is perfect.

And they know that everything
they have to allow everything

to, to crumble around them.

Our, our, our time, our
borrowed time is up.

And, uh, the catch in his voice
in that scene, tears me apart.

Um,

Rob: The moments of her every time the
knock is a transition to jumping ahead.

And she keeps on saying, stay with me.

Stay with me.

Look at me.

Stay here.

Stay with me, Chris, you're going, oh my

Kevin: Yeah, it is.

It works.

Um,

Rob: Because I've been, 'cause we've been
talking about a little bit worried about.

Are they gonna change canon?

They've been changing everything else.

Are they gonna find a way
to get Pike out of it?

Kevin: Nah, I had faith.

I had faith.

And so as soon as they show, as soon
as the first scene of this happened,

I was like, I know what they're doing.

They're showing us the
happy ending we're not gonna

Rob: we're not gonna get,
and he has to do it alone.

Kevin: and that is how they like,
that's how they cheat canon is they,

they want to give us a happy ending.

They know they can't, so they're gonna
give it to us in an alternate timeline.

It's a tale as old as time, Rob.

Rob: It is, it really is.

And in this happy timeline,
Melissa George, we know

you're gonna be on the podcast

Kevin: Uh, the, the kids asking
for their blessing to get married.

It really

Rob: with April's son, April's son.

He was cute and daggy and nerdy.

They were, and the daughter was gorgeous.

Lovely, lovely characters.

The two of them together going, ah,

Kevin: Great age makeup, except maybe
in that very last scene, like the,

it feels like always the last scene
is the one where like, we'll keep

aging you up until it looks wrong.

Oh, it looks wrong.

Uh, I guess we have to use it though
'cause we already paid for it, you know?

Rob: Yeah, and I, well, I, they
thought, let's just distract them

with Anson Mount's hair some more.

Kevin: Yeah.

I mean, it's the exact same in The
Inner Light is you buy the aging

of that couple until the last scene
and you're like, you know what?

I'm here for it.

I, I, I forgive the makeup not
working because everything else is.

Rob: Yeah.

Um, so that was devastating

Kevin: then, and then he walks to the door
and opens the door and Gamble is there.

And I'm like, oh yeah,
we're in this episode.

Rob: have to go back to do that.

Kevin: And just as they were so broken
hearted to be pulled back into their

timeline, I was broken hearted to
be pulled back into this episode.

Rob: Uh, maybe not for the same reason.

Kevin: Uh, Gamble's just staring
there blank faced in that doorway.

And I'm like, wow.

You are like, you know this isn't working.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so jumping ahead when everything's
resolved, I love the, just the quiet

moment of Pike and Una sitting there with
a drink going, you want to talk about it

Kevin: With a needle drop.

A rare Star Trek needle

Rob: Yeah.

Playing.

Yeah, doing the usual sort of like late
nineties, early naughties television

thing of a montage with music,
uh, of a, of a modern hit playing.

I'm there going, Ooh.

Okay.

This reminds me of most shows I
watched in the early naughties.

Kevin: Yeah.

And the, and the, uh, the
apron doesn't have Chef Pike on

Rob: It doesn't have Chef Pike.

No.

And

Kevin: never will.

Rob: But the two of them sharing a
drink and going, I don't wanna talk

about it now, but I will at some point.

That was, yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, final scene on the bridge where we
discovered that Roger Korby's research

unveiled enough previously unvisited
planets for a five year mission.

Where have I heard that before?

Um, it's, uh, it's been said in
some interviews that this was like a

soft series finale just in case they
weren't renewed for a fourth year.

And you can feel it.

Like the, they've, they've wrapped up Pike
enough to connect the dots to the future.

They did the same with the Gorn.

Like there are no loose ends here.

There are some things we would like to
have seen tied up in richer ways over

more time that felt a little like rushed
together here at the end, but it really

does kind of reset the stage for them
to have the next season and a half that

we have left be very much a blank slate.

Like there's not much that is on the
to-do list, I feel like at this point.

Rob: I hadn't actually
thought of it that way.

And that makes a lot more sense.

Like the scene with Korby and
Chapel going, this isn't gonna

be easy, is it, the two of us?

Um, having Spock and Kirk have
a moment, but I did like how it

ended with the Kirk brothers just

Kevin: When, uh, when, um,
Sam Kirk sits down in the

foreground with his blue uniform.

Did your heart jump the way minded did?

I was like, it's a doctor.

It's a doctor.

Is it a McCoy?

And then, no, it's just stupid old
Sam Kirk and his stupid mustache.

Rob: No, I was there.

Go.

Every time Kirk shows up, I'm there
going, you've gotta see your brother.

Spend more time with your brother.

You don't have that much
time with your brother.

Sure.

After he dies, you never
mention him again, but you

need to spend time with him.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, I agree.

So, yeah, all all of that wrap up stuff,
I, I'm At this point, all we've been told

about the future of this series is, is
that it ends with Kirk's first day on the

job as the new captain of the Enterprise.

That is the end of Strange New Worlds,
but between there, here and there.

There are no like, um,
things that must be done.

It's kind of open slate.

They can do whatever they
want with that gap of

Rob: all.

All we've got is information is,
we've got a puppet episode at some

point in season four, and we've
got, as you said, Kirk's first day.

Um.

So, yeah, we don't even have like,
'cause Pike's accident doesn't

happen until after first day.

Kevin: That's right.

And, uh, yeah, I, I mean there's
more how did Boyce get on the ship.

We have, we have the, you know,
the bartender doctor before McCoy.

We have yet to meet that person.

So it'd be nice to meet Dr. Boyce.

But, uh, apart from that, yeah, there's,
there's not a whole lot, uh, here, uh,

which I kind of like because like they're,
they're out of, uh, pull at the thread

of canon tricks and they need, they need
to again do my favorite thing, which

is tell some character stories, I hope.

Rob: Yeah, me too.

Me too.

Kevin: Or, you know, they could
invent another Klingon war.

Who knows?

Rob: They could.

They really could.

Or they could bring in the Jen Hadar like
a couple of decades or centuries before.

Kevin: The cast has been on record of
saying like, next year is their strongest,

like, I guess, what else would they say?

But there's been a few things of,
if you, if you liked this season,

wait till you see next season.

Uh uh

Rob: What does that mean for,
what does that mean for us?

Who went, eh.

Kevin: Yeah.

I mean, if you liked, I'm reading
it optimistically as if you liked

the, the high points of this season,
the next season has higher highs.

That's what I'm hoping for.

Rob: Yeah, me too.

Me too.

You know, I want it to go back to be
the show that what I've loved about it

for the first two years, and there are
elements of season three that I went,

this is why I fell in love with it.

Um, you know, all those, all those
years ago, but two seasons ago,

Kevin: Mm-hmm.

Rob: And I got excited about it
during season two of Discovery

when I went, I want more of that.

I don't want to stay on Discovery.

I want to go over there.

Kevin: Yes.

Um, but, uh, I, I almost forgot again,
Rob, we have a topic to cover, as

we always do here on Subspace Radio.

We are going to talk about pure evil.

They've been asking for us to do it.

Rob: With a capital P and a
capital E, Pure Eeeeevilll.

Kevin: I'll just adjust my
show notes to make sure that

that E is capitalized properly.

Rob: Please.

Yes.

No lowercase.

Otherwise, that would be true evil.

Kevin: They've been beating
about this bush with the

Gorn and then with the Vezda.

This, this idea that there is
the evil behind all evils, the

evil that begets all evils.

They are not an evil race,
they are evil itself.

You know, the, all of these things, um.

I can't tell if they are genuine in their
fascination with this as a concept or if

it is just a device for, well, if we set
this race up as completely evil, then

our heroes are justified in whatever
measures they take to defeat them.

Rob: Yes.

The whole concept of pure evil within
the Star Trek universe is always, it

always sits kind of uncomfortably because
with, in other big franchises, you look

at, say Star Wars, you have pure and
utter evil with no redeeming features.

When it comes to, say, the Sith
and definitely the Emperor.

Um, you have a redemption arc for, um,
you know, Darth Vader of course, but his

influence that is a facet of pure evil.

You look at even Doctor Who, one of
the most famous speeches from the, uh,

the second doctor, which was sort of
like the defining moment of Patrick

Troughton's version as the Doctor.

And he went on to be incredible.

He has a speech where he goes,
there are some, you know, there

is evil out there in the universe
that, you know, must be fought.

So, but with Star Trek, it
is all about how we relate.

How we are going out.

And it's not a, it's not a war show,
even though they used elements of,

you know, uh, military, especially
within from Star Trek II onwards.

Um, but it's, it sits
uncomfortably with me because

it's always a case of No, no, no.

It's what we find out about these races.

Kevin: Again and again, we start
from a place of they're pure evil,

and then we come to understand the
other and humanize them, if you

Rob: Like, yeah, for me, like I
always haven't liked them going back

into this prequel era of Star Trek
where the Klingons are the bad guys.

Uh, 'cause I had so much fun with
Deep Space Nine, where we get to the

point where the, the Federation is
in alliance with the Klingons and how

these two races, they may not understand
each other completely, but there is a

respect there and they, you know that,
that I'm going, that's pure Star Trek

where you get to the point where our
baddies are now in many ways, allies.

Kevin: So, yeah, we, we have gone back
and, and looked at other times that Star

Trek pulled on the, you know, flipped
the switch of pure evil and, and use it

however temporarily as, uh, a plot device.

Um, I've got a TNG for you, Rob.

Rob: I have a TNG episode too.

Kevin: Does it have
evil in the title, Rob?

Rob: It does not have evil in the title.

Kevin: All right, well I'm gonna go
first 'cause this is a season one it

is the episode that must be faced,
Rob is the episode that famously

caused you to stop watching Star Trek.

It is season one, episode 23, Skin

Rob: Of Evil.

That's a very Doctor
Who title it is a very.

Doctor Who is very much has the
something of evil, the face of of horror.

The Oh yeah.

It's, it's a, it's a very
much Doctor Who title.

Kevin: Have you ever gone back
to watch this episode since it

made you stop watching Star Trek?

Rob: W when I was trying to pick
an episode to watch for this, I did

land on, from what I could remember,
there's not much redeeming in the

way of the puddle of oo uh, yes.

But no, I did, I, I, I, I was tempted.

But then I found this other episode that
I will look forward to talking about.

But yes, you have gone and revisited it

Kevin: I have rewatched it.

I, I laughed, I cried.

I, I, I felt the loss of
Tasha Yar all over again.

Rob: She drops really early as

Kevin: She drops her like 15 minutes
into this episode, Tasha Yar is dead.

Rob: 15.

Wow.

That's, yeah.

Kevin: But just like I said,
she is extremely charismatic

for those first 15 minutes.

Rob: Denise Crosby's amazing.

I really love Denise Crosby.

Oh, if she stayed, oh,
if she could have stayed.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, right at the end of the season, the
second last episode of the season, I

believe, if not close to it, um, famous
like famously Denise Crosby was unhappy

that her character was not getting
meaty stories told about her, and

asked to be released from her contract
here at the end of the first season.

So, um, this was the exit they
wrote for her, her, and it is, it

is a divisive episode for sure.

You wanna re refresh us on your
perspective on this episode and,

and what it did to your appreciation
of Star Trek at the time?

Rob: Um, yeah, I know
it was very shocking.

It was like, you, you, even at that
age, I was aware of, even though it

wasn't called, you know, the red shirt
problem, but I was kind of aware of,

you know, the people who went on the
away mission were the expendable ones.

And I'd grown so attached 'cause there
was something so unique about Tasha Yar

being head of security, being a woman, um,
you know, a survivor of the rape gangs.

Uh, if you didn't know, uh, she
only mentioned it every 17 seconds.

Um, um, but to have this happen,
like literally the character

of, you know what I love about
this new version of Star Trek?

It's her.

I'm, I'm all in.

I have, you know,

Kevin: She was your favorite character.

Rob: Yeah.

She was my favorite character.

This is, this is me.

I am like 11, 11, 12 years.

Yeah.

11-year-old Robbie.

I'm going, okay.

I'm all in now.

I'm in, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna follow
this character for the next seven years.

Great.

And in, yeah, not even near
the end of the episode.

In a gallant event, literally 15
minutes in, in one of the most

pointless but shocking moments.

And I've just gone,

um.

I was watching the episode, remember
going, they've gotta get her back.

Okay.

There's gonna be a twist at the end.

They can't, this is my character and that,
and then they're going through the funeral

going, okay, you're really convincing me
that this is, this is good, this is great.

And then the episode ends.

I'm going, no.

Kevin: No.

Rob: I'm done.

I am out.

I will never step back into
this show unless you're a

movie with Malcolm McDowell.

Kevin: Yeah.

Wow.

Um, still from the era where Star
Trek was filmed out of order.

So Denise Crosby actually had more days
at work on the set of Star Trek, The Next

Generation after this episode was shot.

There is a, a famous shot, uh, leaving
the cargo bay in, in another episode

where she stands in the background
and waves because it's her last shot

on camera, uh, in the, in the series,
um, in a completely different episode.

But, uh, yeah, n nevertheless, this for us
at the time was the end of poor Tasha Yar.

Rob: For some reason I thought it was
earlier, like it was like a halfway point.

I didn't realize it was so
near the end of the, of the

Kevin: I would've said the same.

Yeah, I agree.

I mean, my memory is we had her for much
less than a season, but maybe, maybe

that's part of the problem, isn't it, Rob,
that she felt like she was barely present

in the, in the season of this show?

Rob: Yeah.

And more credit to her to just go, no.

Kevin: I, don't think I've
actually heard her say so, but

I wonder if she regrets leaving.

Like, she, she certainly talks about
when she was invited back for Yesterday's

Enterprise and then after that, when
she pitched the character story that

led to Sela that she, she, at that
time saw Star Trek was treating its

characters better and was something
she wanted to be a part of again.

And Yesterday's Enterprise was the
thing, she was like, why, where were

these scripts when I was on this show?

Um, but I wonder if in hindsight she
feels like she made the wrong call

exiting back then in season one.

It's a pretty sweet gig if you're up for
the grind of a weekly television show.

Uh, you can't do much better for
your career than, than Star Trek,

The Next Generation for seven years.

Rob: And especially, you know,
um, Marina Sirtis and, even though

Gates McFadden left and then came
back, they had to, they did a lot

of heavy lifting with a lot less.

Um, but, uh, Denise Crosby is such
an immaculate professional, uh, her,

her diplomatic answers is always,
you can read what she's saying.

She never says it out publicly.

Um, but she's very.

You know, clear with that about,
you know, she wished she'd, you

know, thought differently, um,
and made a different choice.

Um, and oh, oh, what could have happened!

Kevin: Hollywood was not kind
to its women back then as well.

I, I would hate to, I would
hate to imply that she should

have been grateful for the job.

Not at all.

Uh, um, but I also think that
watching season one of Star Trek,

it pales in comparison to what
that show would go on to become.

Rob: Exactly, and especially
like what we saw happen with,

uh, Terry Farrell as well.

Um, and that was someone who
was with the show for six years.

And to be treated so poorly at contract
negotiation point, um, yes, you can only.

I can, I can't, I can't even
imagine the challenge of going

through that decision in your head.

Kevin: I'm just glad that we got her back.

Like she's still a member
of the Star Trek family.

She, she does the conventions.

She, she is invested in
her place in, in canon.

It would be so easy for her to
have exited and gone seeya and,

and never, never to look back.

Um, so I, I'm kind of proud that Star Trek
was worth her coming back to eventually.

Rob: Yeah, very much so.

And like you said, Yesterday's Enterprise
is an incredible episode for her.

Kevin: But, so let's
talk about this episode.

Enterprise is on impulse power doing
engine repairs at the exact moment

where Troi's shuttle goes down on
a planet, ultimately unexplained.

I guess we are left to infer it
was just an engine malfunction and

bad luck that saw them crash on
that planet where the, the evil

oil slick creature of Armus lives.

And, uh, a lot of the, those first 15
minutes are the Enterprise trying to get

its engines back online so that they can
race to the rescue of the shuttle craft.

Uh, this is during the era
where Next Gen had a different

chief engineer every episode.

And this engineer, this episode's
engineer is Leland T. Lynch, and he always

identifies himself by his full name.

Captain Picard actually rolls
his eyes when he calls down to

engineering, saying, engineer, when
can I get my engines back online?

Engineer Leland T. Lynch here, captain
and, and on the bridge, Picard kind of

goes, come on, this is an emergency.

You don't have to say your whole name.

Uh, but they get the engines back online.

They fly there.

The, the landing party led by Riker
with, um, with Yar in tow beams down,

and they're confronted by this oil slick
that identifies itself as Armus, uh,

asks them why they're there, uh, plays
with them, and Yar has at a certain

moment, has, has had enough of it.

We're, we're not waiting, you can't
keep us from rescuing our crew member.

We are going.

And she walks forward and Armus with
the wave of a hand, sends her flying

head over heels, and, uh, Crusher takes
her vital signs that tick down to zero.

And she's got a red, a red kind of
splat sort of thing done on her cheek

that is never quite explained in a
technical level, but I guess you're,

you're like to believe that the, the
burn or something is, is that much of

a, of a presence on her face, that it's
a sign of the severity of her injury.

And they, they transport her up and give
her electric shocks to her brain that,

that, uh, you know, in dramatic television
form are less and less effective on her,

her dead body and, and, uh, Picard, Worf
and Riker are standing by in the corner

in sickbay when she's pronounced dead.

And, uh, Picard turns around and
all three of them cannot quite

believe what is happening, just
as we could not in the audience.

Uh, the rest of this episode is, I
think like if you set aside the shock

and perhaps like dismay at, at Tasha's
fate and Tasha leaving the show, I

actually quite like this episode.

Um, it is in a very nineties Star Trek
sort of way, psycho-analysis as warfare

where the, the, the slick Armus whenever
it is talking with Troi, Troi is forcing

it to confront its feelings about being
alone and being a discarded husk of

evil from the beautiful, benevolent
race that extracted it from themselves

and, and marooned it on this planet.

And when it is facing its feelings, its
its power diminishes and they have a chart

of its power on the bridge with a line
saying if it gets below this level, if

the, if the therapy is this effective,
we'll be able to beam up the crew.

And, uh, Troi has a couple of very
effective conversations with him, but

in the end, Picard beams down and has a
face-to-face with Armus where he gives

him the tough love, uh, therapy session,
then refuses to bargain for the lives

of his crew, uh, in a way that gets to
Armus just enough to allow the Enterprise

to beam everyone up and, and leave.

And then the, the last, the
last minutes of this episode

are the memorial for Tasha Yar.

You, you're, you're at a loss.

You're still affected by
it all these years later,

Rob: It's, it's real.

It, I, I, I didn't expect it to
catch up on me because, uh, to

have it directly talked about.

Um, yeah, it's, it, it's, it, it, as
you said, it literally made me turn off.

Um, and I never went back
for 30 years, but, um.

Kevin: least affecting, like, if you
are going to burn one of your best

characters, you better do it with a punch
that makes the audience feel something.

And I, if nothing else, I feel
they succeeded in that here.

Rob: Definitely, and especially
of a season that is so hard to

get through, um, to be able to,
to, in many ways master that.

So dealing with the essence of
evil and pure evil, it's literally

put down to a metric measurement.

It was extracted and it is a,
a, a tangible representation

Kevin: Armus tells this, this vague
story, but it is very evocative of a race

of titans who recognized in themselves
this, this, these, these elements of evil

and evolved to the point where they were
able to force them to the surface so that

they were a skin of evil, if you will.

And then they shed that skin, this
entire race, they shed that black skin

of evil and discarded it on this planet,
from which it could never escape.

And they went off on their merry
way and are now worshiped for

their beauty and their benevolence.

And Armus is what is left
when a race perfects itself.

Uh, and it's a, it's a, an amazing Star
Trek, an amazing science fiction story,

and all of the details are left to our
imagination in an effective way, I feel

like, um, that, that explain the the
malevolence of this creature, and to our,

to the point of our theme, uh, allow us to
believe that there is nothing redeemable.

Data in this episode is like
Armus prompts him to give a cold,

rational analysis from a machine.

And Data goes no redeeming qualities.

And Armus says, well, what do
you think should be done with me?

And Data goes, I think
you should be destroyed.

And it's just really cold.

Um, but, but affecting.

And so for, for one episode, I think
this concept of, of pure evil as a

substance extracted from a a a a being
that originally is a mix of these

things in the same way that we have
good Kirk and evil Kirk in, in, uh, The

Enemy Within back in TOS there is this
sense of, there is both in all of us.

Of course, The Enemy Within the
point of that episode is that you

are incomplete in either half.

Uh, but that is not dealt with here,
that those titans are incomplete

without Armus, but Armus is
certainly incomplete without them.

Rob: And is that a sense of, of do
you feel sorry for this skin of evil?

Kevin: Well, our characters
all express, uh, um, sympathy.

Uh, Troi uses the word pity.

You have my pity.

And then it makes Armus real angry.

Um, so yeah, our characters are good
Sartfleet characters all, uh, feel bad

for Armus, but his response to that
reinforces his, um, irredeemability.

Rob: Of course, of course.

Well,

Kevin: So, yeah.

Skin of Evil.

There you go.

I, I, I think if you haven't seen it and
you enjoy the Next Generation characters,

it is worth watching just as like a
foundational document of especially what

becomes of Data later in the series and,
and how that show started as one thing

and became something so much more later.

Rob: Of course, of

Kevin: At this point, I've seen,
I've spent more hours watching

Denise Crosby being interviewed about
Star Trek than Denise Crosby had

as onscreen minutes in Star Trek.

And that's especially like interesting
as well, is that the, to me, the, the,

the, uh, the meta textual or extra
textual story of Denise Crosby is larger

for me than Tasha Yar's own story.

And yet I still cannot watch this
episode without becoming a blubbering

mess in that memorial at the end.

Um, Picard's final line is "Au
revoir, Natasha." It's one of

his few French lines, and he
calls her her full name Natasha.

And oh, it breaks your heart.

Rob: Well, thank you for taking us there.

Well, my episode, jumping ahead
to, uh, season three of, uh, TNG

has a little reference to, um, the
importance of Tasha Yar to Data

because Data is, uh, seemed lost.

We believe that he has been killed
in a shuttle accident, but he has in

fact been taken, taken by a collector.

A collector of The Most Toys.

Kevin: Wow.

Is this collector your pure evil?

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

There's been talk

Kevin: Ooh, glass houses, Rob Lloyd.

As I look at your, uh,
your wide collection of pop

vinyls in the background.

Rob: For me, this hits close to home
because yes, being a collector myself is

Kevin: The enemy within indeed.

Rob: How do I look upon
this reflection of myself?

And there's been a lot of talk online
about, um, the, this collector character,

um, having no redeeming features and
being quite a evil character and the

lengths that he goes to to maintain his.

Self-centered, egotistical collection
and, uh, the people he destroys along

the way and his treatment of Data.

So much so that Data gets to a
point where he has acted in a way

that is out of his programming.

Kevin: very Armus, isn't it?

It's very, You should be destroyed.

There's not many times where Data
goes, okay, you're all zeroes to me.

Rob: Exactly.

And it gets to a point where he is
beamed back from safety and he lies.

He flat out lies to Riker about going.

Um, we sensed that, uh, this disruptor,
that his band has been discharged.

He said, Hmm, must have been in the
teleporting, uh, malfunction system.

And you're going, whoa Data.

So yes, I'm looking at the most
toys, season three, episode 22.

Kevin: With Saul Rubinek
playing Kivas Fajo.

Rob: The brilliant Saul Rubinek,
who's been, who's been a

jobing actor for, for decades.

He had a wonderful turn in Frasier.

He had, he was one of the only few good
things, him and Carol Kane in, uh, the

appalling series, he was in Hunters.

The, uh, it was a quite a quite bad TV
series, but Saul, uh, played a married

couple with, um, with Carol Kane, and
they were, uh, they were magic in it.

But yes, he plays the almost comic
book villain, uh, uh, pure, almost

maniacal evil, in this presence.

And he's willing to sacrifice
his own people to make a point.

And so when there's getting Data to
submit to being in his collection.

Uh, threats don't work on Data.

So he threatens his own people.

Uh, we go, I will kill this person
unless you do what I'm told.

And

Kevin: He's a good
laughing villain, isn't he?

Like he, he, he's not mustache
twirling because he does not

take himself that seriously.

He's like, yeah, no, this is my life.

Rob: No, it is that very much
dismissive, um, uh, almost like

mad Roman emperor type of, so like,
you know, I will do this thing.

This is what I will have,
I will get what I want.

Um, there's no way of escaping Ha ha.

You put on the clothing Data.

Put on the clothing.

Oh, you won't put on the clothing,
you'll keep on your uniform?

Then I will throw a, you
know, a toxic cocktail on your

suit and it will either way.

Um, and so that whole sense of, you know,
selfishness, self-absorbed materialism,

capitalism taken to the extreme, viewed
from that Star Trek, utopian future

point of view, um, and those base
elements of humanity that we've kind of

evolved, evolved away from in Star Trek
coming, uh, to be a reflection back on

us is, uh, is, was fascinating to watch.

Kevin: Yeah.

I haven't seen this one in a while,
but I remember it very fondly.

It's, it, it's another one of those
small character pieces, two people

in a room, and you're like, how could
that fill 45 minutes to an hour?

And it, it fills more than fills it.

Rob: So, yes, it goes from, you know,
the, the intellectual sparring between

Data and, um, and, uh, Kivas, um, the
manipulation of the situation, the use

of m mental torture and threatening.

Then back on the Enterprise, how
they cope with life without Data.

They deal with Worf being moved
up to being Data's position.

And so Worf has to
deal, talking with Troi.

Troi's there going, you've moved forward
because two of your friends have died.

How does that relate to you?

You've got Geordi loss of his friend
and he's the only one who believes

that there's something wrong.

He gets help from Wesley.

Um, so how all this plays out into
different settings is really interesting.

And then of course the crucial
thing is, um, Kivas' assistant who

is used as canon fodder decides
to, let's get you out of here.

And you see Kivas just, you know,
take her life to, uh, without any

second thought or anything like that
is, uh, it's a horrifying moment.

And it gets to that point with a
final confrontation with he's captured

behind bars and, um, and, uh, Data just
cold and methodical, just looking at

this person who, you know, destroyed
so many lives and destroyed his.

Kevin: Yeah.

So in both of these episodes, I feel
like pure evil is, is used as a device

to create an irredeemable villain.

Like every, every now and then,
for plot purposes, the show

needs an irredeemable villain.

But in neither case, I feel
like is that treated as a

particularly interesting thing.

Like in Skin of Evil, the, the, I think
it's in the text where, where Armus is

actually kind of like, aren't I special?

Uh, is, is proud of the fact
or feels like it should be

impressive that he is pure evil.

And, and the Starfleet crew again and
again goes, well, no, we're not gonna,

we are afraid of you, but that doesn't
mean we're gonna do what you say because

that is ultimately self-defeating
and that would be a greater evil.

Um, and, and so the, the
diminishing of pure evil is

almost the point of Skin of Evil.

Um, and, and again, it just takes
me back to Strange New Worlds

going, our, our theme this season
is that there is pure evil.

And isn't that interesting?

It's, I don't think it's that interesting.

Rob: No.

Well, there's definitely, uh, I think
irredeemable is the right word when it

comes to, uh, Kivas because he doesn't
evolve, he doesn't change, he doesn't

realize, you know, um, his, his faults.

He's purely, purely a, a, a self-centered
being who only wants what he has.

He, he lies about his
background and his past.

He's never truthful about anything unless
it's to get something that he wants.

He doesn't communicate.

He only uses people to be a
part of his, you know, adventure

for more things that he wants.

Or he's manipulating people
to, to, to be on his side.

There's nothing redeemable
about him, even though he's not.

Like what they tried to set up in Strange
New Worlds is this pure evil is on a

cosmic almost universal galactic level.

It is the evil that
transcends all time and space.

Kevin: Yeah.

With so many things transcending
time and space at once in that,

in that finale, I, I, I feel like.

Think I said about halfway through
this episode, boy, this is a

lot of superhero mumbo jumbo.

Rob: Yeah.

But, um, especially in the most
toys, you know, Kivas, Kivas is very

Kevin: It's the mundanity of evil,

Rob: Yes.

And he's very much along the lines
of like a Batman comic book villain.

He is like, you know, there's the
Joker, there's the Riddler, and he's the

collector, I do in inverted commas, where
he does that similar thing of going,

well, I'll just, I'll kill my assistant.

I don't care you, you will do this for me.

Kevin: Yeah.

It's not grand or grandstanding evil.

It is matter of fact evil in that.

That is so much more the chilling.

Rob: Yes, very much so, and it makes
it more real as opposed to something

we can't grab onto with pure evil from,
that was before the beginning of time,

that encompasses an entire universe,
but appears as a disinterested actor

with ridiculous, uh, eye costumes.

Um.

So, yeah, I did.

And getting a really good actor
being allowed to play, um, uh,

uh, and Saul is just magic here.

And to see him play someone so
irredeemable was something I

hadn't seen from him before,
and he did that wonderfully.

Kevin: Yeah, that's a good one.

Um, any, any opportunity to let Brent
Spiner stretch his legs and grow

the character of Data is a good one.

Uh, uh, yeah.

Well found for sure.

Rob: That's a, yeah, that was a, a, a
fun one to discover and a, and a fun

one to watch and to see Data pushed to
the point where he was willing to use

an unlicensed disruptor weapon, um, to
take out someone who he had in his power.

He had taken the weapon,
he had him under control.

He could have just, you
know, ended it there.

But no, he was ready
to take that next step.

Um, and, and you see in that final
confrontation when he, when the

collector is collected in, uh, in,
in the, um, in the security hall,

uh, that Data is affected by this.

And he is not, you know, even
though he doesn't feel emotions,

he does not like the fact that
he was made to feel that way.

Kevin: Hmm.

Um, I'm, I'm reading some of the behind
the scenes from Memory Alpha here in

which, uh, writer Sherry Goodhartz,
this was the first of three episodes of

TNG that she wrote early in her career.

She says, I asked Brent Spiner
whether he thought Data purposefully

pulled the trigger or not, and he
was adamant that data did fire the

weapon, which was my intent as well.

But the powers that be wanted
that kept ambiguous, so it was.

If I had a chance to do it over with
all the experience I have behind

me now, I would argue passionately
for Data's actions and their

consequences to have been clearer
and hopefully more provocative.

Rob: It is very much of the era of what
we're talking about, episodic TV, where

we couldn't have that arc explored.

Kevin: tarnish your characters.

tarnish

Rob: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

These are the guys that
are coming back every week.

Kevin: Uh, yeah.

Uh, shuttle pod Pike, in this episode.

Um, a couple of mentions of Tasha Yar,
Troi expresses concern to Worf that

he's now replaced two deceased officers,
Tasha Yar being one, one of those.

Rob: And there's a moment where, uh,
Geordi's going through, um, Data's

stuff in his, in his quarters,

Kevin: This must be one of the,
the founding moments of the,

the Geordi Data bromance, I feel

Rob: I think so, yeah, this is
definitely the starting point

of it, uh, from what I can see.

And so day, uh, Geordi pulls out,
the little crystal ball touches it,

and the full, uh, image of Tasha
shows up and they both, and, and

you've got Geordi looking at Wesley
and they both have a look of, Hmm.

Kevin: Mm. Well, there you go.

Skin of Evil is, is cannot be escaped
no matter how far you run, Rob.

Rob: And I've been running for 30 years.

Kevin: Well, that brings our
coverage of season three of

Strange New Worlds to an end.

We are told that the next time, if you,
if you forget, uh, Nickelodeon shows for,

for preschoolers Scouts, Star Trek Scouts.

I have not watched it yet, but I have
been promised phasers hitting meatballs.

So that is the level at
which we are playing here.

Um, I may, I may give Scouts a
watch just to say that I did.

I, I'm told if nothing else, it is brief.

But also going on at the moment is
Star Trek: Khan, the audio drama that,

uh, as we record this, the second
episode dropped earlier this week.

It's coming out on, on Mondays
for us here in Australia.

And, uh, very well
produced, very well acted.

Um, yeah, I, I am enjoying it quite a bit.

I wouldn't mind bit if, if you do get
into it, Rob, I wouldn't mind, uh,

comparing notes when we get to the end.

Rob: Definitely we will
definitely reconvene.

We don't have much Star Trek until
whenever uh, Starfleet Academy comes.

So it would be nice to explore an
audio drama, which is very huge

within the Doctor Who realms.

Big Finish is the company that produces,
uh, all the Doctor Who audio adventures

that have been running god 20 years now.

Um, so I'll be very interested to pop
into the world of Star Trek with audio

Kevin: The last Star Trek audio drama I
listened to was No Man's Land, which was

that spinoff from Star Trek Picard, in
which, uh, Raffi and, and Seven, it was

set in the period where they were together
and told a story of a mission that they

led or went on, or I can't remember which.

And it, it, um, you know, it was sold
on Audible as an audio book, but it was

produced as a full cast audio drama.

And my memory is, it was very
lavishly produced, but I lost

interest in it very quickly.

I, I kind of want to go back
and check it out again because

I am enjoying Khan so much.

I think what I enjoy about Khan the most,
uh, we'll we'll see if this is still

true at the end when we compare notes, is
just the characters are so recognizable.

This feels like the Khan
that we met in Space Seed.

It feels like he is evolving towards
the Khan that we meet in Star Trek II,

who are very different people in ways.

Um, and it's satisfying to watch
the line get drawn between them.

It is also, it feels a little
cheap in that that is a line we

had all drawn in our heads already.

And so there is, there's something safe
about telling a story where you know,

the starting point and you know, the
ending point already, you just have to

make sure you don't deviate from any
of the known facts and just justify

everything that happened between.

So there is a bit of that going
on, but the, the, the performances

are strong enough that I'm,
I'm enjoying it immensely.

Rob: So they're not fast and
loose with canon like our

dear, uh, Strange New Worlds.

Kevin: Not at all.

If anything, there are, like, there
are some veiled references of, you

know, the Ceti eel, the goes in
the, in the, in the ears, I think

fans have long gone is that an eel?

That's not what I would call an eel,
eel's, a slippery thing that goes in

water that doesn't look like an eel.

So there is a moment in this where they,
they name it an eel and someone goes,

we'll argue about what to call it later.

And so there are a few veiled
references to the things that did

not make sense, um, not making sense.

And the moment is marked
that they don't make sense.

Rob: Well, that's clever.

That's good.

I like that.

I like that.

Well, I'll definitely have a listen and
we will, uh, reconvene at the end and,

uh, and, uh, as you say, uh, share notes.

Kevin: Yeah.

Alright, well until then, Rob,
I'll see you around the galaxy.