Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin,

Rob: and me, Rob.

Kevin: We are here to talk about another
episode of Strange New Worlds, or is it a

leaked documentary from the 23rd Century?

Rob: I believe it's a
feature length documentary.

Kevin: Yes, I believe that is what we were
promised, and what that turns out to mean

is the shortest episode of the season.

In fact, the shortest episode
of the entire series so far

is what we got this week.

Rob: And it didn't feel like that at all.

Kevin: Wow.

Okay.

Some spicy takes already going on here.

Need I ask what you made
of What is Starfleet, Rob?

Rob: Look, I will tell you
this, I'm very grateful.

I'm incredibly grateful that the
answer to the question of what is

Starfleet wasn't carrying on from a
discovery trope of talking about stuff

and then repeating: that's Starfleet.

That's Starfleet, something
that Michael Burnham did quite

a lot at the end of season one.

But no, I will not talk about
what the episode didn't have.

Um, look, I was a little bit to the point
of very disappointed in this episode.

It was a bit of a mess.

It was a bit of a disappointment.

It was a bit of a horrifying watch.

Um, a lot of moral questions and
a lot of decisions made to be

clever or to be interesting or
to have sympathy for people, but

we don't really have it for them.

The stuff with the big space creature
is was, was really, really cool.

I liked that

Kevin: Oh good.

So the episode within
the episode was good.

It was the framing device that really

Rob: If we had it as a stock
standard star trekky type

episode, it would've been great.

But all the, they didn't really use
that format of a mockumentary, and I

do that in commas to, to its advantage.

It just was a different way of
showing the episode that raised more

questions than answered them and
didn't make it interesting at all.

I was really disappointed in this.

Kevin: I will go a step further and
say, not only did it not make it

interesting, it actually made it harder
to watch, it, less enjoyable to watch.

I wrote, if this is what cinematography
looks like in the 23rd century, we

are indeed in a golden age today.

Rob: Well, that's the thing.

Yeah, there's so much type of, so a
focus on, they've taken this footage

from, from ship's logs or stuff like
that, so a lot of really awkward,

horrible low angle shots, up and up

Kevin: Yeah, super close up,
low angle looks to camera.

A lot of the, like the premise of the,
the surveillance shots is a lot of those

cameras are behind the screen, or at least
the screen itself is recording the image.

And so a lot of cases of like
people doing their jobs looking

directly at the camera and it feels
like, whoa, you just looked at me.

\Why?

Oh, right.

You were looking at the screen that
I'm meant to understand is between us.

Uh, and yeah, it's certainly like.

It has a novelty of getting to see
these characters played more up close

than usual, at a different angle than
usual, but none of it was flattering

and none of it served anything
other than a, a break from the norm.

Rob: Yeah, it was that case
of it, it was all style.

And it wasn't a very good style.

It was a very ugly style

Kevin: I really hate that drone cam,
like we've seen it earlier in the

series and it was played for comedy,
just how annoying and intrusive it was.

And then I did not, it did not occur to
me, it should have, that we are gonna

get to see an entire episode filmed
through the lens of that camera, and not

only only is it annoying to be filmed
by that camera, it's annoying to watch

a film from that camera, because it's
swooping, it's getting in people's faces.

I feel like the characters are annoyed at
me, the viewer half the time, which is not

what you want from the characters that you

Rob: No, no, no, no, no, no.

Yes it was.

Yeah, it was.

Kevin: And this is why Scotty and Pelia
went on holiday that week, obviously.

Rob: that was the smartest
move ever for the both of 'em.

Yeah, this was all style and
no substance and the style

didn't help with the substance.

It should have been there
to elevate it forward.

I mean, there's an episode of
the X-Files later in its run

when they were going wacky, when
they were like completely wacky.

There's an episode where they
joined up with COPS and that's

an in incred that I remember.

I'd never watched the X-Files, but I

Kevin: I loved that.

Rob: I tuned into that one
and it was beautifully done.

And they manipulated how they told the
story through the use of the, the cops.

Format, which was really good.

But there's another, there's a Doctor
Who story, uh, from the Peter Capaldi

era called Sleep No More, which is
done in a similar found footage, uh,

format, and it doesn't work at all.

It's one of the weakest Doctor
Who stories of the modern era.

Um, and so I was going into this a little
bit trepidatious and, and, and my, my

worst fears were realized that was,
yeah, do I use the word embarrassing?

Kevin: Yeah, that's strong.

Rob: Well, yeah, especially
'cause I love the show so much.

I've been such an advocate
for it, especially,

Kevin: Yeah.

And but I, what I'm hearing from you
is that beyond just not enjoying it

yourself, you felt embarrassed that other
people will be watching this and judging

Rob: I've never, yeah,
I've never thought that.

I'm aware of like there's some
hardcore Star Trek fans out there,

bemoaning anything of the new era.

Um, and I've been going into bat for this
show and, and, and, and as, as what it

stands for and how it has those elements
of Star Trek, despite the glitz and glamor

and modern lens that it's coming through.

Um, but this one, there was a little bit
of a moment of me going, oh no, you didn't

just do that in front of my boss at work.

Or like, like, I feel

Kevin: People know I'm a fan of this!

Rob: We talked about this.

All right.

You do not embarrass me.

We are, we are been invited around to the
boss's house for, for dinner and drinks.

Kevin: I don't think I was
that strong against it.

Uh, but I, I would not
rate this highly for sure.

I'm, I'd be curious in drilling into what
some of those cringe moments were for

you, but like for me, the two biggest
sins of this episode were, were, one,

it was unpleasant to watch, and two,
I don't think the story about Beto

Ortegas the filmmaker, makes any sense.

Rob: It really doesn't, especially
because, especially because we

haven't sit like this is about,

Kevin: He's been so happy go
lucky, like part of the team.

I'm so stoked to be here.

If anything like that's the foundation
that his supposed burgeoning relationship

with Uhura is founded on and in this
episode we are, I think, asked to

believe that either that was all a
front he was putting on, in which case

that character is pretty irredeemable
for what he put poor Uhura through, or

they changed, they forgot to tell the
writers of the previous episodes that

Ortegas is a Starfleet skeptic because
he hasn't asked any skeptical questions.

He has shown no skepticism whatsoever
about the missions up until this

point, until the start of this
episode where he is suddenly like,

How does it feel to kill people?

Is this a warship?

Like where is that coming

Rob: It came outta nowhere.

Exactly.

There was, and I'm gonna, you know,
ring the bell, drop the money into

our, um, frequently stated in our
podcast jar, if we had more episodes

Kevin: Mm. They could have built that

Rob: That came outta nowhere.

And especially a, a big part of this
was Ortegas being injured or hurt.

That, sadly, we saw that as
hopefully being something that would

expand out through this season.

Kevin: I think this is it.

I think this is all we get.

Rob: This is all we get.

We got sort of like

Kevin: We get one speech at the
end where, where she's like, I came

to Starfleet 'cause it's a thing
I could control when mom was dying

and then I couldn't control it.

And that freaked me out.

Uh, but I'm better now, thanks to my

Rob: Ortega gets PTSD, she
causes disruptions on the bridge.

She's put on suspension.

The very next episode, she's pulled
outta suspension because they

need her on the bridge to fly.

Then there's nothing dealt with it.

And then there's this lovey-dovey
brother, uh, you know, Uhura,

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: no, this isn't happening, type thing.

And then the episode hits,
you know, they, they're col

Kevin: all, no comment.

Rob: These are colonizers.

They're taking over.

I'm going, where has, yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: A lot of lines that we
had to fill in the blank.

Kevin: You know, I love to
bend over backwards to make

Star Trek makes sense, Rob.

And in my, and when I try to do this,
I can only get part of the way there.

I can, I can maybe tell a story where
there is a narrative back home, um, among

the planets of the Federation, there is
anti Starfleet sentiment, that is growing.

And Beto is either funded by those people
or he comes with that with that premise.

He knows that premise exists
in the minds of his audience.

And so he makes a movie that starts
by playing into that to get that

skeptical audience on side and
then twist, here's what I learned

when I went looking for that.

Not only was I wrong, but you
are wrong to even think it.

You should feel bad
about yourself, audience.

But I don't know if that makes sense.

And even if it did, like, we didn't
see any of it in the se previous

episodes of this character.

So, yeah, I, I, I dunno.

Rob: And especially, issues about sort
of like questioning Starfleet is good and

some, like you've talked about before,
one of your favorite moments of, uh, Deep

Space Nine is a scene that we're gonna
cut between Garak and Quark, talking

about what the Federation means for

Kevin: It's insidious.

Rob: you know, you get to like
it, um, just like root beer.

But then you've got another episodes
in Deep Space Nine where Bajor's on

the verge of joining the Federation
and Sisko was aware that, through the

prophets and visions and stuff like
that, that this isn't meant to happen.

And Bajor is, you know, benefits because
of not being a, you know, and is saved

because of not being in Starfleet.

And the questioning of staff fleet
is a good thing, but the way it was

handled, it was clumsy not only as a
character point of view, but as a, a

writing point of view, so that at the
end where they, there was a, a smugness

and a sense of never question us again.

You're going, oh, but no, that's not the
message that Starfleet should be, or that

Star Trek should be putting out there.

Those questions should be asked,
but the way it was written and

the way it was executed was,
uh, just awkward to watch and

Kevin: There were moments I liked.

I did like the episode within
the episode about the giant space

creature or the, the space dragon
as Ortegas called it on the bridge.

Um, and, and we've chosen that as our
topic to explore in other episodes.

I think giant space creatures are
great, and this one was a good one.

I think this, the story was of of
like this space creature that was

harnessed into a weapon and Starfleet
was going along with it for some

reason, that is never fully made clear.

That's all been redacted.

Rob: It's, yes, so there's
two races fighting.

Um, and you

Kevin: The ones losing the war were allied
with the Klingons during the war, but

for some reason, the Starfleet wants to
come to the rescue now, by, by enabling

this transport of what is initially
called cargo, then livestock, then a

tool they will use in their rebuilding
efforts, and then finally a weapon.

Rob: So yes, the Federation was just
under the impression they wanted more

supplies or food or whatever for, you
know, because they're being starved

out, there, there's a war going on.

This particular race is being, you
know, dominated by this other race.

They showed the, the loss
of lives within this war.

And so they're kind of not being
peacekeepers, but trying to negotiate it.

And you could draw any modern
parallels and that type of

stuff within Star Trek is great.

It happened back in the sixties.

It's happening in the
nineties, and it happens now.

Great.

Good.

Love it.

Um, little bit murky with all the,
the morality behind it all, but I

guess that's, could be a reference
to, you know, parallels today.

But yes, that slow reveal of,
oh no, no, this creature is

being called out as a weapon.

Oh, no, no.

This creature is a weapon because
it's being manipulated by the

species who controls them.

Oh, this species can communicate and
does not like being used as a weapon.

Um, and wants to be, you
know, wants to end its misery.

And also wants its children on this
planet that's protected, um, to, you

know, not be used or exploited for

Kevin: Yeah, all good stuff.

And, and like every glimpse we got of
the episode that actually happened here,

like made me wanna watch that episode
more than this episode that we got to

Rob: Yes.

Yes.

And it was a, and shout out to Mothra from
the Godzilla universe for cameo this week.

Really good cameo performance.

Mothra, you've shown
you range as an actor.

Kevin: It looked amazing coming out of
the water, uh, and going up into space.

Rob: That was an amazing shot, and part of
me went, how'd I get the footage of that?

And don't worry, don't worry, don't worry.

It looked too good.

Kevin: The sun at the start and
the end looked really nice as well.

Like the, the opening, the first moments
of this episode really had me leaning in.

The silent, like, slow coasting over
the, the detail of that, that sun

that ended up playing a central role
in the, the end of this episode.

Those quiet, silent moments that made
me feel like this is a documentary.

We're taking this slow, this is.

This is, um, about facts and, and, uh,
like it made me feel like we were about

to watch a nature documentary about
Starfleet, which would've been amazing.

But, uh, instead it, like,
everything that in between those

two shots really bothered me.

Uh, when Beto got pushed off the
bridge and it switched to just the,

the security fat camera footage,
I was like, oh, that's better.

That's, you know, I, I
can, this is a relief.

Rob: Yeah.

Um, the backstory stuff about a bit
more detail of Uhura was really nice.

Um, and her, her, her loss of, um, her
friend that she found out about that

was like the character was manipulating

Kevin: Elena Cho from the Cayou guy.

Rob: And there's a little bit, I
like the, the focus on Ortegas.

We had her, like, she's
a bit of a grease monkey.

Tom Paris would be happy.

Um,

Kevin: about that just yet last

Rob: So this is the thing.

I'm, I'm gathering scraps of Ortegas

Kevin: There are things to like
here, but they belonged in the

episode that got chopped up and,
and framed by an unpleasant and

nonsensical, uh, documentary.

Rob: We should be seeing more of
Ortegas doing that grease monkey

stuff throughout the last two
seasons, not just now going, oh, okay.

Of course.

Well, she's a, she's a, you know, she
flies the ship, so of course she's that.

But you shouldn't be realizing that near
the end of season three, you should be

Kevin: This is the strength and the
weakness of Strange New Worlds is that

it is almost, it is almost counter
to the mission to do a normal episode

of Star Trek on Strange New Worlds.

And what we saw here was glimpses
of a great normal episode of Star

Trek, but they went, no, no, no.

This is Strange New Worlds.

We've, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Rob: We have to be, we have to
be weird, wonderful, or wacky.

That's our, we, we are standalone
episodes with a little bit of an

arc and we have to do something big
and bold each, so this can be the

crossover episode with Lower Decks.

This is the musical episode.

This is the puppet episode.

This is that episode.

This is the documentary episode.

Yeah.

Kevin: As many of those hit as, as
miss, and this was an obvious miss,

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

Kevin: to you and me anyway.

Rob: Yeah, and I think the general
consensus has been a little bit the

same as well, which is a real shame
coming into, especially after the

powerhouse of last week's episode.

As you were talking about, you've
been a bit, a little bit, you know,

disappointed with this season and so
this momentum was building up and where

they're going, yeah, let's go with this.

Alright, let's see where we go.

What is Starfleet and, oh, stumbled so.

Kevin: Yep.

Well, uh, what we've got a couple
of episodes left this season.

We'll see, uh, we'll see what the Vulcans
give us this week, but in the meantime,

we are going to follow that, that rogue
space dragon into the sun and see what

other giant space creatures we can find

Rob: excited, very excited to do this.

Let's, as always, we need to find
out where we are in the timeline.

So we are

Kevin: I'm back to TNG this week.

Rob: I'm in TNG as well.

I'm doing a season one episode
and a season five episode.

Kevin: Well, I know what season
one episode you're talking about.

Let's start at Farpoint,
where it all begins.

Rob: Nuh!

Kevin: No!

Wow, there's so many giant
space creatures, Rob.

I thought for sure you were gonna
take us to the big, uh, you know,

Farpoint Station is revealed at the
end of the pilot to be one of a pair

of these giant space fairing creatures.

The jellyfish.

Rob: No.

I am going to season one,
episode 13, Datalore.

Kevin: Ooh, the crystalline

Rob: The crystalline entity.

With the introduction of Lore and
the introduction of the famous GIF

meme everywhere, Shut up Wesley.

Kevin: That is from that one.

Is it?

I, I, that is a, uh, a line completely
devoid of context in my mind at

Rob: For, for me, when it
actually happened, I literally

gave it a standing ovation.

I stopped, went, it's that episode,
and I'm literally there going, oh,

this is this, this is, this is weird
Picard, where he is so mean, and there's

moments where he shows joy, but it's
really weird why he's showing joy.

Kevin: There's a lot of, if you'll
pardon the expression, lore established

in this episode about Data, the Soongs,
the origins of, of Data and, and you

know, his family, his brother, in
this case, like, I feel like by the

time we get to the movies, half of
Data's story is coming from this.

The where he ends up in Picard
season three is, it all starts here.

Rob: And especially like in Picard
season two, we had, uh, you know,

Noonien Soong in, you know, with,
um, Brent Spiner playing him.

So I've seen it all in reverse.

I've seen all this stuff about it,
but I never saw the start of it.

I never saw the first appearance of Lore.

Um, this is one that, you
know, Roddenberry had,

uh, a big hand in writing.

Well, a big hand as, as much of a big hand
as you can have with about seven different

writers that come up on the screen.

Kevin: That's why this is
so overstuffed with ideas.

I feel

Rob: It really is.

Kevin: Just the story of finding Data's
father is a whole episode, let alone

finding Data's secret brother and facing
the entity that destroyed their home.

Uh, like all of that, there's
just way too much in this

episode, or way more than it needs

Rob: They go to the planet he's created.

The planet he's created is now dead.

They go to the place where he was found.

He talks about where he was found.

They go down to the laboratory.

They find this other body.

They put it all together.

They find out how the, how you
can get the off switch of Data,

which is just in his back.

Um, you have Lore come to life and you
find out who was first, who was second.

Then you find out, um, you know,
Wesley doesn't, you know, his

observations of what a child is like
compared to what Federation is like.

What is more human?

What isn't more human?

Then you find out there
was a deceit there.

Then you find out he was in, in league
with the crystalline creature and came

back to kill all the colonists, 'cause
the colonists were, wanted him to be

turned off because he was too human.

And so Data was the better version
created, was less, you know, it was

more appealing for the colonists.

So Lore wanted to have revenge, um, and

Kevin: Especially poignant that plot
line in today's modern era of, uh,

of rapidly advancing AI tools that,
uh, yeah, will we get the one that's

too human and freaks everyone out,
and so we need to back it off a

Rob: Exactly.

There's an amazing moment
where they had a conference.

It was like Geordi, Riker and Picard, and
they're talking about Data being a life

form, and they're going, oh, we shouldn't
talk to him in that particular way.

And Picard goes, well, we talk
about all life form in all

different particular types of
ways, so let's open it up that way.

And then there's a cutaway to Riker
getting so excited by Picard's captaining.

He's there going, yes, great.

I'm going, what is happening

Kevin: Yeah.

Season one TNG was uneven.

They were, they were like, um, yeah, the
emotions were a little random at times.

Rob: like Wesley is standing up and
going, you need to listen to me.

And they go, Shut up Wesley.

He goes and he stands up and
starts talking again, and then

his mom says, shut up Wesley.

And then he keeps on talking and
then he goes, oh, excuse myself out.

And then he,

Kevin: They were still
finding the tone, Rob.

Rob: finding that tone and then like,
and then it's ended within the, like

the crystalline creature comes around
and Lore is pretending to be Data,

and, and then, right, and he doesn't
understand when Picard says, make

it so, but he doesn't pick it up

Kevin: Yeah,

Rob: And then he is
teleported off the ship.

No, he just teleported away.

But they, they don't say where,
they don't say, is he just gone

into the internal buffer zone?

Is

Kevin: Yeah.

No, he's in, he's inside the crystal,

Rob: He is inside the crystal that
just goes away for some reason.

They have a o offhand thing of
going, oh, well, because that's

happened, it, it goes away, now.

I'm going, what?

Because what?

In the what with the who, what?

Yeah.

Anyway, so yes.

The crystalline creature does not
play a massive part in this episode.

It's more the introduction of Lore,
and as you've said, the lore behind

Lore, and especially Data's creation.

Kevin: So the crystalline
entity does come back.

Rob: Yes, in season five, episode four,
uh, Silicon Avatar, that is the return.

Kevin: And we get to meet Data's mother,

Rob: Um, we, we get to meet a mother,
and because, th they explained the

Lore again that Data has absorbed
all the information of the colonists,

their diaries, their video messages.

He has pretty much composited
an entire history of thousands

of people into his brain.

And, and the doctor's son was
killed by the crystalline creature.

So she has come with an ulterior motive.

She's solely there for revenge
because her son, uh, was killed

by the crystalline creature on the
colony, and she blames obviously Lore

as well, and by extension Data and.

Kevin: Yeah, she gets some nice
crazy acting towards the end of the

Rob: crazy acting and data does the whole,
they have moments where they communicate.

So he uses the journal entries of her
son and they have a bit of a conversation

and he puts on his, his son, you
know, her son's voice through Data.

Um, and he thinks that he's
turned a corner with her.

Then at the end they use it, 'cause
Picard's all about we need to

communicate with this creature.

We, I want to see if there is
some way of an establishing a

connection with this creature as
opposed to just blindly killing it.

Like the doctor said

Kevin: Right, right, right.

It's coming back to me now.

She, so she's not even from
the same colony where, where

Data and Lore were made,

Rob: She was there, she was
Her, her son was based there.

Hence, he could, uh, Data could use
all his memories and but she was

working as an archeologist or something
studying this creature, or, and off

doing, she started studying it after
it destroyed the planet, obviously.

Um, but she,

Kevin: It is revealed.

She's seeking revenge.

Rob: And she was feeling guilty that she
had left her son on this planet while she

was off doing her, her archeology work.

And the son in his journals never, you
know, Data says there was no animosity.

He never felt any, he was just so proud
of her, proud of you for being away.

And then right, right at the end, spoiler.

They find this way of communicating
and it starts happening.

They're using a gamma pulses
or something like that.

It's working and, and Picard's
going, they're communicating, they're

understanding, and she goes and turns
it up full and they vibrates itself.

And it explodes.

Kevin: She murders the crystalline entity.

I did it for you.

Rob: goes, he, you
would've been proud, right?

You would've been proud and.

Kevin: The cold line he

Rob: Beautiful, like I have gone
through every single entry and I can

see no evidence that he would be proud.

He would be disappointed.

He would

Kevin: Oh,

Rob: and a great ending for, an awkwardly
paced episode, much like, much like

Datalore, it jumps all over the shop.

Like the pre the, the, the cold
opener like Rikers flirting with like

Kevin: Yeah.

It goes real slow and then goes real

Rob: Like, yeah, like in a moment they
are, you know, light, light flirting,

and he's going, well, I've got some
wine, he goes, well, I've got a cabin.

Well, you know, he's literally going,
well, I've got a member and you

are on it, type of, I'm going this.

And then she's wiped out within a
second and then that's skipped over.

'cause then the doctor comes in,
the new character seeking revenge.

There's a little moment where
Picard's talking with Riker and Riker

goes, I've watched my friends die.

She died there and this
thing doesn't see reason.

Then that's kind of left 'cause it all
focuses on the, so it's awkwardly paced

and the script doesn't really, it isn't
as cohesive as it could be, but it's

much better because it's season five, so
they know a lot more what they're doing.

And Data's final cold line
of truth to the doctors.

Really freaking powerful.

Kevin: Yeah.

If You find a button for an episode that
is that strong, like it almost doesn't

matter what happened in the episode.

Rob: It kind doesn't.

'cause I was watching that final scene
and Spiner is just a absolute gun

and everything I go, I almost went.

Okay.

All is forgiven.

Kevin: All right, Spiner.

It's been a rough week.

It's time for you to bring it home,

Rob: Come on, Spiner.

Bring out,

Kevin: Save the episode.

Rob: out the gold.

Okay.

This this is where we, this
is where he wraps it all up.

Wrap it all up.

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, since we are here to talk about
these giant space creatures, let's

like pull the crystalline entity out
of these two episodes and look at

uh, as a, as a thing in isolation.

What are your thoughts on that,
that entity, that creature?

What, what, uh, how did it compare
to this week's Jikaru, for example?

Rob: There's, it's with a crystalline
entity and it looks like sort

of like a three dimensional
snowflake, like a global snowflake.

There's

Kevin: It feels like a sample
model from a 3D animation

Rob: Very much so.

Very much so.

And I was like, the life form that we
saw in this week's episode, um, had a

bit more personality, a bit more, you
know, it was dynamic in the way it looked

Kevin: so product of the time, it's,
it's obvious, like it's an example

of very early CG and it's a product
of the limitations of the technology.

Rob: like Farpoint where it's got
sort of like weird space jellyfish.

Um.

This one

Kevin: just between those two episodes
you could kind of see the technology

mature and like the, the way the
tree like vibrated in response to

the signal in the second episode, it
was like, I don't think they could do

that back when the first episode was

Rob: Yeah.

That's why it's all done after.

Um, where they arrive
and it's already dead.

Um, but we find out a little bit
more in the second episode about.

It's like absorbing a certain
type of electromatic energy.

That's what it feeds off and
that's the only way it can exist.

Obviously Lore could communicate
with it and speak in English and

it understood, in a rougher sense.

Um, but there's a bit more sense of
building up how can we communicate

through this musicality or rhythm
type stuff, which they were developing

in series, the series five episodes.

So there's little bits
there, but not much.

I think they, they did as much as
they could with, um, the limitmess.

It was quite limited,
this type of creature.

Kevin: I feel like often, often
the purpose of these creatures

in Star Trek is to invite us to
empathize with a very alien creature.

And that this thing that seems… It's
pure crystal, like it seems like a

chemical, not a, not a being at first.

By the end of it, if they've
done their job, we feel sorry

for it when it gets destroyed.

And do you think they achieve that here?

Rob: I think so.

I think so.

Uh, for, and for something that doesn't
have anything that, that's appealing.

Even in Star Trek IV, you know, you
start to get a sense of the probe.

The probe is just a, you know, a, a
cylinder in space with a little glow orb

dropped out the front of it, but you get
a sense of why it communicates what it is.

It's a mystery where it comes from.

But with this crystalline form, you
see the starting point, that point of

going, oh, we could learn so much more.

There's potential of it expanding
into this wider, you know,

species, but then it's taken away.

And I, yeah, I do like that fact with
something so large and alien looking,

what we perceive it as with our limited
humanity and moral compass is just,

it's doing it all 'cause it's evil.

But then you find that you
step back and you look at it

from a different perspective.

In the case of why this is the
way it feeds, this is the way, you

know, how its world is perceived.

That type of stuff is, is great sci-fi
and very beautifully done in Star Trek.

Um, which is great to, to show off.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: What about you?

Which episode did you focus on?

Kevin: I'm gonna take us to an,
an episode between those two,

season three, episode 20, Tin Man.

And on rewatching this, it's striking
how much this is in many ways, that

episode that we only got glimpses
of this week on Strange New Worlds.

It is an episode in which Starfleet
becomes aware of a mysterious

space fairing creature, and
there's no war to get in the

middle of, but there are Romulans.

And Starfleet sends the Enterprise in
order to to investigate this creature

that is hanging around a dying star.

The Romulans are sending a couple of
cloaked ships at the same time, so there

is going to be a race, um, and instead
of sending an incompetent documentarian

on the ship, Starfleet this time sends
a mission specialist, named Tam Elbrun,

who is a Betazoid, a full Betazoid.

Tam Elbrun is a super Betazoid, like
he has overdeveloped, uh, uh, psionic

powers or, or, uh, at least, um, em
empathic powers, and that's why he is on

this mission is that he stands, of, of
all the people, Starfleet can draw and

he stands the best chance of being able
to communicate with this, this thing.

So that's the mission.

Go, explore, communicate.

It's a really pure Starfleet mission.

And, uh, all of the drama at first is
really around this mission specialist.

He's, because he is, he is so
sensitive, he finds it very

uncomfortable to be on a Starship.

He's gotten in trouble before when
he is like, ability to process the

thoughts and emotions of the people
around him, get the better of him.

And he has caused, uh, uh, uh, one
or two disasters in the past on

missions that he has been involved in.

So the Enterprise crew is not
particularly happy to have him around.

And, uh, Deanna is somewhat
invested in him because she has

treated him as a patient before.

And so all of that stuff
is like the early drama.

And then when they finally get to
the place, the Romulans show up

and the late drama is about space,
space battles with the Romulans.

The Romulans try to disable the
Enterprise to get there first.

Tam Elbrun warns Tin Man, and it does a
spin and, and destroys the Romulan ship

with the stroke of, uh, an energy beam.

And, uh, yeah, all of this
stuff is really fun too.

And so in the end it, it is, yeah, just
about discovering this very alien being,

which Tam Elbrun does make contact
with, discovers it was a living ship

whose crew was destroyed in an accident,
and that ship has now taken itself to

this dying star in order to uh, die.

It wants the sun to go supernova
and for it to be consumed because

it cannot live without its crew.

But we have Tam Elbrun, the misfit who
fits nowhere because he is too sensitive.

And we have the machine, the ship
that has no crew and feels incomplete.

And the two of them fit
together like a glove.

They, uh, Tam Elbrun goes
aboard the ship and uh, they fly

off into the sunset together.

Rob: Look, that sounds good,
but it just needs a film crew.

Um, and really low angle shots close
up of our regular cast that would've

really made it something special.

Now, missed opportunity, Kev.

Kevin: The, uh, the actual creature.

I don't know if you've seen this episode.

Here's the link to, uh,
the, uh, a photo of it.

It's a really cool, sort of, um,
pod shaped thing that it, it has

the feel of like, if you can imagine
an onion that, that has layers, but

the layers are made out of wood.

And in between those layers there is like
golden light seeping out between them.

And it is just amazing, an amazing
piece of production design or visual

design, I think, this, this thing that
at first we don't know what to make of

it, but we're pretty sure it's living.

And then by the end we realize it is a, a
vessel, a vessel for people to travel in.

I really loved

Rob: See if you now, uh, you
seem to really enjoy it, but you

know, it's, is a space onion.

I would've preferred a space parfait.

thought I'd do a Shrek reference there
for everybody, uh, listening at home.

Shrek.

Sorry, shout out to, uh,
Eddie Murphy as the donkey.

Uh, anyway, yes, thank you for the photo.

It looks very cool.

And that sounds like a, uh, a great
episode of, you know, that's what

we love, you know, a big entity
that we don't fully understand.

We've got an antagonistic
species on one side.

We've got, uh, a species that we
know of, but an outsider within that.

Um, I lo and I always
love, um, organic ships.

There's a great, uh, it's not, it's not a
great Doctor Who, it's a horrible doctor

who story, but it's a great concept,
uh, called Claws of Axos, uh, with my

favorite Doctor, Jon Pertwee, where they,
at one moment they go, this ship was not

built but grown, and everyone goes Grown?

And there's also illusions later on in the
modern series that the TARDIS is actually

a grown being as opposed to a, um, you
know, constructed, um, uh, uh, device.

Kevin: For me, living Starships is
something I, I saw for the first

time in Babylon 5, I think as as a
real big deal and, and, uh, yeah,

very impressive there as well.

Some, some more early CG for you if
you want, uh, Babylon 5 for sure.

Um, but yeah, uh, loved Gomtuu,
is the its name that it calls

itself by the end of the episode.

Really good.

Rob: And it communicates through a

Kevin: It communicates telepathically.

Rob: Do we hear its voice or

Kevin: We only hear it
interpreted through Tam Elbrum.

Rob: That's very, very cool.

That's a great

Kevin: Yeah, it's, it's lovely.

And, and yeah, by the end of
like, we feel it's loneliness.

We feel happy that it,
that they find each other.

So yeah, I think it does succeed in
having us empathize with this extremely

alien thing by the end of the episode,
in some respects, this concept is a

do-over of those, uh, those jellyfish
things in Encounter at Farpoint because

the crew does walk around in the
hallways of that thing that turns out

to be a space jellyfish by the end.

And it's never quite explained or revealed
or explored, but it is at least implied by

the production design that these creatures
are formed in a way that creates a habitat

for something or someone within it.

Uh, so to come back to that here,
and I think more successfully, much

more interestingly, more emotionally
impactful, uh, Tin Man is a, is a

really nice revisiting of that concept.

Rob: And especially like having
to do it on a episode by episode

budget as opposed to Farpoint, which
of course had a lot more money.

They had the all the big bucks put
behind that pilot really set it apart.

Kevin: Just comparing the production
design of the sets of the interiors,

like Farpoint is they're, they're like
rounded triangles, the hallways, and

they have panels on the walls that before
you know, it's a creature, they look

like they have circuitry within them.

But when, when the creature comes
to life, you can read those same,

uh, textures as like anatomy.

Uh, but it is still very flat.

Uh, uh, you can, you can imagine the
wooden beams behind the walls, whereas

the interiors of Tin Man done for one
little episode of TNG and not a very

special one, I agree with you, are
so much more beautifully realized.

It feels like you're walking
around inside of blood vessels.

The floor is not flat.

They're going up and down.

The doors are like these apertures that
like are, are, um, you know, the, the

sphincters in our, in our internal organs.

Works beautifully, yeah.

Uh, so big shout out to the, the crew
that put together the, that set for those

couple of scenes with Tam Elbrun and
Data who beamed over with him to make

sure he didn't do anything too crazy.

Um, Tam Elbrun as the Betazoid who hates
hearing everyone's innermost thoughts,

loves Data because he's completely silent.

It's they're best friends immediately.

And that little dynamic is really fun.

At the end when data returns to the
Enterprise, he, his parting thought in

the episode, since we're talking about
like, uh, powerful final lines from

Brent Spiner, uh, he, he says, um, when
Tin Man returned me to the Enterprise,

I realized this is where I belong.

Rob: And of course, Tam is played by
the brilliant Harry Groener, a wonderful

Kevin: have said, yeah, big
time, uh, character actor in

the, uh, in the genre space.

Rob: Um, his, uh, one of his most
defining roles is, uh, mayor Richard

Wilkins in season three, the best
season of, uh, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

He is absolutely incredible as the, um,

Kevin: Evil mayor, evil mayor.

Rob: mayor, but he plays it,
his, uh, gee Willers 1950s style,

um, you know, sweet apple pie

Kevin: I just want the best for everyone.

Oh, you're so right, evil mayor.

Rob: gonna turn into a big giant monster
and eat all your friends and say it.

Um, he's an incredible actor.

Um, and yes, I'll, uh, definitely wanna
chase that down just because he is in it.

Um,

I wanna do a shout out very quickly
from episode from, uh, the episode

Datalore, the music in it is
really awesome done by Ron Jones.

The music is almost cinematic in way.

'cause especially in later on it becomes
quite generic television almost synthy.

Kevin: Yeah, TNG spent a lot of
money on its orchestrated music,

especially early in its run.

It was, it seemed to be, part of the
concept of the show is that we were gonna,

we were gonna assemble the orchestra for
every single episode, and we're gonna

write original music for every single
episode, which was a huge departure

from the original series that reused
the same stings over and over again.

Unless it was a very special episode
that that called for a new motif.

Rob: Yes, and it, it definitely stood out
for me as the episode was playing out.

I'm going like, especially when
they're exploring the undercover

laboratory and they're walking
in there for the first time.

There's this music playing and I'm
going, this is like, high level,

it really elevated things up, um,
which, which surprising to me.

I was used to Star Trek music
being at a, a television wise,

being at a certain level, but
it, it el it elevated everything.

So Ron Jones work there was outstanding.

Kevin: Nice one.

Oh yeah.

Real good.

Um, worth acknowledging the immunity
syndrome from the original series

that we've talked about before.

The one where the, uh, the Enterprise
goes into the giant space, amoeba and

Spock has to plant, um, charges near
the nucleus in order to explode at all

before everyone dies of depression.

Um, that's a good one as well
for giant space creatures.

Rob: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And um, uh, was it last week's
episode or where was We were?

Um, yes.

We were confused a little bit about
the history of the Rogate and um,

and there was a traumatic incident
and I think that was with a space

entity creature as well, like,

Kevin: that was the gaseous creature
that comes in through the vents and kills

everyone by exploding their red blood

cells.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what you were remembering was the
TOS episode obsession in which we

learned that Kirk, while he was, uh.

Working as a Phaser crew member
aboard the Fargate Lieutenant Kirk.

So this is before this episode of
Strange New Worlds significantly,

like four years think.

Um, yeah, they, they were attacked
by this gas cloud and, and more than

half the crew, uh, died and Kirk
blames him himself for hesitating

given the order to fire Phasers.

Um, and he, in that TOS episode, he,
they, the Enterprise basically faces

off against the same creature again.

And Kirk is like, this time, this
time, I'm not gonna hesitate,

I'm gonna make the difference.

And what he learned is that
it wasn't his fault at all.

But that is interesting to know about
or to be reminded of because the

Kirk we are now seeing in Strange New
Worlds is like four years on from that

disaster, still blaming himself for it.

Rob: Definitely, definitely.

And involving a space entity as well.

So we here at Subspace Radio love
blending everything together.

Kevin: Very good.

I feel like we got a better
episode out of this than Strange

New Worlds did this week.

Rob: So in many ways we are
always the winner when it

Yeah.

Um, and yes, and we are onto no doubt a

Kevin: Four and a Half Vulcans.

Rob: We're gonna be quirky,
we're gonna be silly.

We're gonna be, um, we're gonna be funny.

Kevin: Yeah, I, I am hopeful.

Like when they set out to do
comedy, when that is the brief,

I feel like they can do it.

And we've had just enough non-comedy
episodes that I'm ready to go there again.

Rob: True.

It's time for that balance.

And that leaves us the final
two episodes to go all gung-ho

in being serious and dark.

But, uh, thank you for your time.

Thank you for listening everybody.

And, uh, let us know what you
thought of, uh, the documentary

that didn't really have anything
other than just one adventure in it.

What did you think?

Kevin: Yeah, we had some
pretty spicy takes this week.

And if you do wanna reach out to us, we've
got links to our Bluesky and our Mastodon

accounts on our website at subspace.fm.

You can reach out to us in either
of those spots and we'll be, we'll

be eager to, uh, compare notes with

Rob: Yes.

Come and reach out here in the subspace.

Kevin: All right.

Until next week, Rob, see
you around the galaxy.