Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

This is our episode for Strange
New Worlds season three, episode

five, through the Lens of Time.

Rob: Very ominous title, very,
very thoughtful title as well.

Kevin: Yeah, this title did.

This title led me into
some wrong directions.

I think this was a trap of a title.

It was, it was there to
misdirect more than anything.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very much so.

We're going, oh, okay.

Time is in the title.

Will that play an active part in it?

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

But we'll come to all of that.

The topic that we've chosen, uh, to expand
on from this episode is body possession.

Definitely a recurring theme in Star Trek.

I'm sure there are, there are dozens
of episodes we could talk about,

but we've each picked one and, uh,
we'll, we'll see where it takes us.

Rob: And not to be confused
with a body swap episode.

Kevin: No.

Very different thing Rob.

Completely different science
behind this phenomenon.

Rob: well.

Yes, that's what, that's what you know.

I'm here.

Just to clarify the nerd side of things,
you're here to clarify the nerd science

of things, you know, that's why we've got
all bases covered here at Subspace Radio.

Kevin: But let's start with, uh, some
reflections on Through the Lens of

Time, which, uh, I, I believe they have
now fixed the spelling on Paramount

Plus, initially published with the,
the wrong lens, L-E-N-S-E on Paramount

Plus, and sent us all scrambling for,
hang on, what's the actual title?

What are they talking about?

Lense?

What did you think of our, of our lens-y

Rob: Well, with this episode in
particular, it was, um, we've talked

about it before, how the, uh, Star Trek
Strange New Worlds trying to be funny

this season kind to has, uh, starting
to grate on, uh, on, on some people.

Um, however, when it goes in for
some serious, uh, material, it

seems to be hitting, uh, with a lot,
uh, more confident, uh, stroke, if

I was to use a sporting analogy.

This one is ha has elements of darkness.

It has some really horrific things in
there, and some really contemplative

messages, and I thought it was, um, a
highlight of what we've seen so far.

I, I re really like this one.

Kevin: It definitely felt that
like the tone shift I was craving.

I've been saying I want, I want.

Like this is the first time this
season I feel like Strange New Worlds

has taken us to a strange new world.

Rob: With a lot of unanswered
questions, which we love about

Kevin: Oh yeah.

A lot of unanswered questions.

Not all of them deliberate, I feel like.

I, I don't know if you felt the same.

I felt like this, this was one of those
episodes that came together at the last

minute with a lot, a lot of loose threads
and, uh, artifacts of, of things removed

or things that ideas not quite fulfilled.

Rob: And, and stealing ideas
from an Indiana Jones movie.

Kevin: Well, yes, of course.

You steal from the
best, if you steal, Rob.

Rob: Oh exec.

I'm glad.

I'm glad that Last Crusade is
getting, its getting its flowers.

Kevin: Yes, exactly.

Uh, but yeah, and a couple of comic beats,
like it wasn't completely humorless.

Um, yeah, Carol Kane deployed
beautifully with the, uh, the, would

you like one for the camera at the end?

Very

Rob: it is always.

Kevin: exactly the right amount
of comedy in my Star Trek.

Rob: It is always a tough balance
to find that comedy that doesn't

take away from the emotional impact.

Um, uh, and so it doesn't sort of like,
undo all the work that has been done,

but Carol Kane is such a pro, such
a, uh, absolute pro, and just knows

how to flip that dime and catch it
expertly and keep the tone going on.

Because of course, Ortegas' brother is
here filming, uh, an official documentary

for the Federation, and this is his
first away mission with the crew.

And ooh, what a doozy.

Kevin: A, a feature length
documentary, if you will, Rob.

They called

Rob: Will it be, as you say,
feature length or will we see

it at 45 minute episode length?

Kevin: Just the concept that, uh,
feature length, uh, films are still

a thing this far into the future
is kind of a, a, a, a funny idea.

It's, it's funny, every time
one of these, like modern

phrases makes it into Star Trek.

I feel like they used to be a lot more
disciplined about not using contemporary

language and now they're really going
there and, and every once in a while

something like this goes, I'm not
sure that would still be a thing.

Rob: They're not just
fast and loose with canon.

They're fast and loose with what
they've established is, uh, still

within the vernacular of this time.

Kevin: We had another one with,
uh, with Chapel and La'an's

conversation in the corridor.

La'an saying, Spock and I discuss it
and decided it would just be fun times.

And I was like, fun times that,
that's a particularly, uh,

2010s turn of phrase, isn't it?

Rob: Is I, I think that's more of a,
yeah, that's more of a La'an phrase

than I, I don't, I don't, I, I, look,
I'm loving what Ethan Peck is doing,

but I don't think, yeah, I think his
version of Spock is so in spirit.

In spirit, he would never say, I
believe that this shall be a fun times

Kevin: Yeah, that was definitely
her, that that character's, uh,

yeah, uh, choice of words for sure.

I, I guess I got what I wanted out of
this, establishing the relationship

as casual and that we aren't gonna see
lovelorn Spock for the rest of the season.

Good.

On that front, this scene.

Really, I did not like it.

The two women and the, the line, Oh,
please don't be one of those women.

I kind of went, sat back at
my chair and went, ah, how did

that make it through the edit?

That was, that was a bad line, and
it, it really, you know, I, I know

Roddenberry's rule of no conflict between
Starfleet officers is something that is

often bemoaned as a limitation of the
creative possibilities in Star Trek for,

for a while, especially in the early
nineties, but, uh, I think it could

have used a bit of application here.

I, I don't, I don't want to see my
Starfleet officers having that kind

of, uh, I dunno, it, it just feels
so trivial and, and pedestrian as a,

as a, as an issue to be separating
the human beings on the show.

I want, I really want to see
professionals being professional in

professional situations on Star Trek.

Rob: I, I felt it was, I did feel the, uh,
the cogs grind a little bit at that point.

Um.

Kevin: It felt like they were,
they had to do something.

They had to justify where they were
gonna take the relationships, but

it was a really clumsy way to do it.

Rob: Well, it definitely, it was a
case of, because it's something that

you were hoping that would happen.

It would well, in a, in a sense
of it was mentioned and they

just carry on with the business.

And for the rest of the episode,
you, you couldn't tell that

La'an and uh, Spock were in some
sort of fun times relationship.

However, if that line was dropped in,
say, something like Lower Decks, that

would be called out and made fun of
within the, the Lower Decks crew and

the writing would be on top of that.

But because this show is fundamentally,
yeah, even when the Lower Decks characters

came into it, in Those Old Scientists,
the, the Lower Deckers were talking

about how serious they are and how, you
know, Pike and his crew are on a serious

level compared to the rather flippant
nature of, um, of Boimler and uh Mariner.

So that seriousness has undercut this,
this line has undercut that seriousness.

And because this line was such
a clang and they had to keep the

serious tone, which should have been
referred to, it's, it just didn't gel.

It just didn't gel for me.

Once they got on the surface, I'm
going, okay, this is where they

feel more, this is where it's
working more, um, confidently.

Kevin: It was scaffolding for that final
moment of will Chapel trust Spock or

not, and step out into the open space
where the bridge is going to appear.

And if Chapel wasn't having
second thoughts about like, is

Spock, is Spock trustworthy?

Uh, is his heart in the right place?

Has he got my best interest at heart?

Had, we had to establish
some doubt so that there was

some tension in that moment.

But to use the, the.

Apparent love tra triangle between
them, those, those Starfleet officers

as set up for that did not work for me.

I don't, I don't think that's,
that sort of stuff should be

playing into our plot lines.

I, I don't know.

It, it, it is probably just an,
uh, uh, I'm, I'm a traditionalist

when it comes to my Star Trek plot

Rob: It did feel a little bit clunky,
um, and, uh, I'm glad it wasn't, um.

Uh, we didn't stay on that
and so, and it didn't hamper

Kevin: I think it was, it was, we've
already talked for twice as long as

the scene took, uh, which was uh, nice.

It just really stood out as, wow, am
I, am I watching Star Trek right now?

This feels like a teen drama.

Maybe we'll get more of
this with Starfleet Academy.

Rob: Oh, the

Kevin: We can only hope

Rob: how enticing.

The older we get, we want to go
back to that teenage love, um,

uh, dynamic that we're, that,
that we can relate to so much.

Kevin: Yes, but we beam
down to the rock quarry.

Or actually we should probably spare
a moment to talk about our young, uh,

our young Gamble, Dana Gamble, the,
uh, the, um, medical intern who signed

onto the ship a couple of episodes ago
and we were talking about, oh, they're

recruiting, they're adding new characters.

Do we really need new characters?

It turns out we did need new characters
'cause we're gonna kill them.

Rob: This is a, yeah, this is, uh,
sort of like a platinum red shirt.

We find, not only do we find
out about him, you know,

before he goes on the mission.

We've had him for a couple of episodes and
we've seen how his infectious positivity

has, you know, ingrained himself
into this, you know, embedded himself

within the community on the Starship.

His relationship with M'Benga, all
of this is developed and, um, set him

up, set us all up to knock us down.

What an incredible performance by that

Kevin: Yeah, he did great.

Uh, I, I saw it remarked online
that he was doomed to the moment.

He got that red blood on
his nice white uniform

Rob: Yep.

Yep.

Kevin: from there then on,
he was just a red shirt.

Rob: If any, yeah, any point you
need Nick Frost, just to look at

him and go, you got red on you.

But, um, yeah, incredible performance
and from, yeah, and that so him possessed

by this ancient presence within, trapped
within this, uh, place within the orb.

And that question about whether

Kevin: Was he in there or

Rob: was Gamble still in
there, was played really well.

That intentional play was horrifying,
was heartbreaking and incredibly done.

Kevin: The moment where, M'Benga like
goes, hang on, let me change my scanner

here, 'cause this can't be right.

Your brain is dead.

Like, that was like a, a, you know,
a stomach sinking, very creepy

Rob: It was, it escalated quickly.

They're going, oh, wow.

He's lost his eyes, oh
wow, he's lost his life.

Okay.

Kevin: I felt most misdirected by the
title 'cause Through the Lens of Time,

I'm thinking, okay, there's gonna be
some time displacement or multiple

timelines or something like that going on.

So when he came up to the ship and his
memory was not quite right and he was, he

was not behaving completely as expected.

I was like, oh, did we get
an alternate universe copy of

him or did he lose some time?

Uh, and, and all of that was
completely like misdirect or

like very successful misdirect.

It had me, um, thinking down
completely the wrong lines.

So when it was revealed that he was
possessed, I was, I was taken by surprise.

Rob: Possessed by an evil
that even the Gorn don't like.

Kevin: Yes.

Although rewatching this the second time,
the, the recap of the previous episode,

um, when Spock and, uh, Batel share the
mind meld, then they see the flash of

this, the, the, the creepy, uh, face.

They both talk about it afterwards
and ask the question, was it Gorn?

It's, they don't establish conclusively
that it was So, was it Gorn?

Was it Vezda?

Is there something else going on here?

This, there is, this is fertile
territory for speculation about

where this season is going.

I'm, I'm kind of happy that, um.

It still feels small.

It doesn't feel like a world
ending threat, and yet it,

it is completely mysterious.

These small puzzle boxes are rare in
modern storytelling, and I feel like

they're pulling one off really well here.

Rob: Very much so, very much so in a nice
little teaser, uh, just before the credits

of, um, the evil that still lurks within.

Um, so yeah, we get ourselves down into
this, uh, tomb that Korby is there as

well, obviously, and very, very, tiny
little traces of his desire to prolong

life or the the soul continuing on

Kevin: I am now just like waiting every
episode to see, is this the one there

where, where Korby's gonna go missing
because, uh, I, I've looked up the dates

and this is the in-universe year in which
Chapel and Korby get engaged and then

Corby goes missing on a dig on Exo III.

So if you hear the word, if you hear
the name Exo III, you're like, whoa.

Oh, that's, yeah.

That's where Korby goes to

Rob: My Vulcan ears will prick up.

Kevin: Yes, spoilers.

I, I still want to go, I haven't gone back
and rewatched What Are Little Girls Made

Of?, um, which is the, the original series
episode where we learn Korby's fate,

but I feel like I better watch it soon
because, uh, his, his clock is ticking,

especially with the very irresponsible
decisions he's making in this episode.

He, he was very likable
in we wedding bell blues.

I felt like they, they did a lot of
work to get us on his side, and this

episode they completely lost me on Korby.

Rob: You're a

Kevin: I will not miss him
when he is gone at this point.

Rob: He, yeah, his priorities were,
um, yeah, despite the loss of life

and the danger, his look back at
the end of sort of like almost, oh,

what I could learn and going, dude.

Kevin: Yeah,

Rob: Dude, you need to go get
lost somewhere and then turn

yourself into an Android.

Kevin: That's right.

Yes.

I, um.

I really just standing in the rock quarry
there, setting up the equipment that

they were gonna use to unveil the ruins.

I was like, okay, this
is, this is my Star Trek.

They are on a, they're on a planet,
they're in, on an adventure, the,

the, the mystery is palpable.

Rob: A, a species that hasn't discovered
warp drive, so they're there for only.

So doing that diplomatic thing,
Pike is negotiating how many

people they can have on this site.

Um, and then when things go pear
shaped, Pike's doing that thing of we'll

discuss with the people of this land,
but we also need to get our people out.

So there, there was star trekky, Star Trek

Kevin: Star trekky Star Trek stuff.

This is where I think all of this stuff
on the planet, I felt like they, they must

have chopped half, half the scenes out
of it, or a lot of the scenes would've

got shortened in the edit because it is a
fairly long episode for, for this season.

I think it's like 55 minutes
or something like that.

So they were.

I think it, it feels like they were
trying, it was too long and they were

trying to get it down, and some important
facts were left on the cutting room floor.

The M'Kroon ambassador spoke
English outside of the ruins, but

once they went inside, he was then
speaking his native language and

people were translating for him.

And it was, as far as I can tell,
they never explained that or said why.

And yet, like they were addressing him
in English and then he was responding in

his native language, like he understood.

So it is like his translator was
still working, but ours was not.

And all of that was probably
explained in the script somewhere

and we just didn't get to see it.

Rob: We had to do the
whole Chewbacca faith

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The, the, uh, human languages
on the panels in the thing was

remarked on, but never explained.

Why is there Chinese on this panel?

Good question.

We'll never find

Rob: But look over here.

There's something else to distract you.

Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: The displacement of time
thing, so each room was actually

a different part of time.

So they were

Kevin: Super clever.

Loved

Rob: clever, very clever stuff in that
figuring out, solving, showing how

intelligent each of these people are
and why they are there on this mission.

Also

Kevin: clever, but the camera reveal
really didn't work for me, 'cause like

that you, you, he is there to film a
documentary and he goes, what, 45 minutes

without checking the camera before he
goes, hang on, we're all in the same room.

But like, I did not believe that.

Rob: That's about half a
feature length documentary.

Kevin: right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So, uh,

Rob: was distracted by the
awesomeness that is, uh, Uhura.

So

Kevin: Yes, that's true.

Yes, that's true.

Uh, yeah, the intuitive software,
like they set up the fact that it's

intuitive software and then later
he goes the intuitive software,

it's locking onto our life signs
and putting us all in the same room.

Or, you know, you could look
at the screen and like you can

see we're all in the same room.

We.

Rob: own in.

Use your own intuition.

Come

Kevin: Yeah, so there was too much
explanation that actually hurt

the believability in some places
and in other places not so much.

Um, the, I feel like this is a recurring
issue for Strange New Worlds that I

don't know if there, they're losing it
in the editing, but there's often a lack

of clarity of exactly what is going on.

The final like solution of stepping into
the void to rev, to reveal the bridge,

to walk across it, to unlock the door
that they know is meant is going to be

unlocked because of reverse causality,
like that was a lot of like Star Trekky

words, uh, that almost made sense.

But I'm like, it left me going,
wait, what exactly is meant, are we

meant to understand has happened?

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: And that seems to happen a lot in
Star Trek, uh, Strange New Worlds lately

is like, you get to the end of the episode
and go, hang on, what is exact, what, what

was I meant to understand from that scene?

Rob: did indeed have to take our own
leap of faith to, uh, to accept that.

Kevin: One thing I did like, I'm
pretty sure that I found in the

rewatch, there's a moment where as
soon as they get separated, Spock

and Korby are back in the original
room and there's a line from Spock.

He says, but look, and he looks to the
door and we see a shot of the door,

and the door has a red access panel.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: And I'm like, that's what it
looked like the last time we saw the door.

What are you talking about, Spock?

In the later scene, he says, when Korby
and I were separated, the door, the bridge

was there and the access panel was white.

And I was like, hang on, it
wasn't, and I rewound and it's red.

So I think they made the access
panel the wrong color in that shot.

Rob: Lost it in the edit.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

So like a lot of this sort of
stuff I think plagues this episode

where it's not quite clear.

Rob: True.

I was grateful to finally have
what I thought I was promised

at the start of the season.

We had a little bit of Scotty and
Pelia together, um, and, uh, and

saving the day by capturing the,
uh, the creature as it, uh, it was

excised from, uh, uh, Gamble's body.

Um, but full credit to
Carol Kane this episode.

What an amazing.

Like her ability to switch in her
description right at the end of no,

some things out there are just evil.

Um,

Kevin: If they hadn't leaned on that
theme so hard with the Gorn last season,

like the, we are told the whole point
of the Gorn last season is that there

are true monsters in the universe.

And I was like, okay, like,
interesting idea, we'll go there.

And then to go there again, I, I know it
seems like it's somewhat linked with the

Gorn, but as far as I can tell, again,
not completely clear, but Batel's Gorn

true evil was a nemesis of the, the Vezda
true evil that was occupying, uh, Gamble

and, and they true evil to each other.

Like there's a lot of true evil going
on here that I, I, I am not sure what,

what point they're trying to make.

Is, it doesn't feel quite as interesting
as they think it is as a theme.

Rob: You know, it is that case of like,
'cause especially at the end of last

season, they were showing an intelligence
and a and a, different levels and a,

and a and a, a texture to the Gorns
that, as we've talked about in the start

of this season with Hegemony, Part II
they kind of just swept it under the

carpet and went, no, they're evil.

So maybe it's, you know, we might be
seeing a flip again of going, you know.

You think this is evil, this is what
re more evil than evil is, and then

we hopefully get back to a point
of showing the nuance of the Gorn.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Um, but yeah, that one particular
scene that was horrifying was when Gamble

was captured, and not only did he kill
the red shirt, but he taunted him and

mentally tortured him by describing like
the death of that guy's mother and break.

And then they're going, that is
just all level, that was beautifully

acted and the tension ratcheted up.

It was a horrifying,
horrifying, uh, moment.

Kevin: I just really, I, I
really loved just the moments of

the, the red shirts chasing him
through the hallways of the ship.

And then, you know, M'Benga catches
up with them and there's a crew member

on the ground and starting to, to like
see some nameless members of the crew

is starting to flesh out this sense
of it being a big ship and a big crew.

I don't know if it's, again, budget
constraints, but I feel like a lot

of the time the Enterprise feels
strangely empty except for like our

eight characters that we know by name.

Uh, and that's not usually
the case with Star Trek.

You think back to the Promenade on Deep
Space Nine or the corridors, the, the

Enterprise D on Next Gen, there were,
and even the original series, there were

always people walking back and forth.

There were lots of extras on the
ship to sell the idea of a big crew.

And we just got a little taste of it
in that scene there and I realized

just how much I was hungering for it.

It was very satisfying.

Rob: is giving me that feel of like
this skeleton crew of like the movies.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: You know, um, Star Trek III, IV
and, and V when it, you know, when

you've just got, you know, five people
on the bridge and poor old Scotty alone

down in engineering, taking care of.

Kevin: I've seen it remark,
especially the scenes in sick bay.

A lot of the time it's mbenga
and one patient and like 16 empty

beds and a completely empty room.

Like, what is going on on this ship?

Where is everybody?

Rob: Yeah, that's a Twilight Zone episode.

That's not a

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob: episode.

Kevin: But yeah, like for all
my, for all my nitpicks and, and

definitely not a perfect episode,
I loved what they were swinging at.

I loved how they were, how they were
swinging at it for, for 90% of this.

Um, more episodes like this, this
season will make me very happy.

Rob: Yeah, I definitely felt there were
a lot, there were a lot more surer, uh,

surer footed, which was awesome to see.

Um.

And that's what we do as
Star Trek fans online.

We need to nitpick.

That's how we, uh, that's
how we live and breathe.

But there's definitely a
lot of positives in there.

And something that, certainly for me,
I went, this is why I fell in love with

this show, um, uh, right from the start.

And so I, and I was hoping that it, this
show wouldn't lose its way as so many

other of, uh, some of the other modern
Star Trek, um, live action shows have.

So this was, yeah.

Kevin: Excellent.

Well, let's talk about other
instances of body possession.

Rob: Mm. Let's do it.

Kevin: I went back to the
original series for this one.

Rob: Excellent.

Well, you can start us off and then
I will, uh, I've, I've got two, so

I'll talk about them very quickly.

Kevin: All right, so this,
this episode is season two,

episode 20, Return to Tomorrow.

It's a often overlooked episode,
right, right, like towards the

latter half of the second season.

So just by the, by the episode
number you would be expecting

this is Star Trek at its peak.

And definitely it has that, um, assured
performances, full formed characters,

just the right banter between the
characters, all the dynamics between

people are firing, uh, well here.

But the story itself is, um, I, I
will say, uh, not standout, but it is

certainly relevant to our topic this
week because, uh, in this, the, the

Enterprise is, uh, out in, in uncharted
space, and they happen upon, uh, a

signal that is drawing them to a planet.

And as they, uh, approach the
bridge is, uh, overtaken by

a voice, the voice of Sargon.

Rob: Sar— okay.

Kevin: Introduces himself as a, uh, a
being who is as dead as the world below.

And the Spock, Spock scanners say
the, the world, uh, used to be Class

M but had its atmosphere ripped
away half a million years ago.

And there are, it is completely lifeless.

And yet there's a voice coming from below.

So a beautiful tantalizing opening.

Rob: I love the, I love the poetry
of sixties Star Trek, and poetry

of sixties sci-fi in general.

It was same with, uh, it, it was tangled
in with, um, Twilight Zone and even

with, um, in the fifties and even with
uh Doctor Who, that poetic description

of a scientific concept to make it more
relatable for the audiences at the time.

I love that type of, how do you,
how, put it in layman's terms, but

also add a flare to it as well.

I love that type of, uh,
um, description work.

Kevin: Yeah, very.

I mean, just the titles from the
original series are really evocative

and I, I feel like they're getting,
they're, they're starting to get a

bit back to that with, uh, Strange
New Worlds, which is nice to see.

Rob: throw us curve balls, of course

Kevin: Yeah, they do.

Yes.

Rob: time.

It's about time.

Alright.

Kevin: Yeah, but this episode
title Return Tomorrow to Tomorrow.

It's, it's back to the future before,
Back to the Future in the eighties.

Uh, but uh,

Rob: heavy.

This is indeed heavy.

Great Scott.

Kevin: Yeah, so they, they are
invited to beam down to, uh, meet

this, this voice from the past.

And, uh, they are, they're told the
given coordinates that are deep below

the planet's surface far, far deeper
than, the transporter could normally

reach, but they were assured it will.

And Kirk says, oh Spock,
you better stay aboard.

This is too risky for both of us to go.

And immediately the, all the
power on the ship goes dead.

And Kirk goes, well, I guess.

I guess we've been told you're
coming with us, Spock, and

all the power comes back up.

And so this is not just a,
a, uh, dead voice, but it is

a very powerful one as well.

They end up beaming down and,
uh, discovering a glowing orb

on a, on a pedestal in a room.

And this is the source of Sargon's
voice, who introduces himself as one

of the few surviving members of a dead
race that used to inhabit this planet.

That they had grown so, uh, so powerful
in their evolution that they had

overcome the, the, physical death of
their bodies and had managed to preserve

their essences in these spheres.

Uh, and the, it turns out there's a,
there's a side room with a whole bunch

of other spheres and very Space Seed
like, they're most of the, most of

the spheres are dead, but there are
two left lit. And so these are the

three surviving members of this race.

Sargon is their leader, uh, his
wife Thalassa, and Henoch from the

other side is how he's introduced.

So this, this race went to war.

They, they annihilated themselves and
in on the brink of their own extinction,

they managed to preserve a few of their
best and brightest in this chamber

in order to live on into the future.

They, they explain that this race had,
um, in a very familiar, uh, bit of world

building for Star Trek, this race had,
uh, spanned the galaxy and seeded their

essence on planets all over the place.

And they knew that if they stayed in
suspended animation long enough, the

fruits of their seeding would eventually
come looking for them, and they would

be able to offer their guidance to this,
uh, this like their children, as it were.

Rob: I think I might take back
my, uh, description of poetic.

Seeding my seeding, their e
seeding, their essence is, um,

Kevin: Sargon was much
more eloquent than me, Rob.

I just, I'm not doing him justice.

Rob: Seems like you are
from the other side there.

Kevin: Yes.

But, uh, in, in return for this promise
of this long lost knowledge of this

all powerful species, they have a small
request, which is to borrow the bodies

of three of the Enterprise crew just long
enough for them to be able to manufacture

"robotic Android bodies", unquote, for
them to occupy and, uh, and live in.

Rob: I don't, I I think
you're just being cynical.

I don't see anything
going wrong with this.

Kevin: No could,

Rob: Sounds perfectly fine.

They just wanna borrow
it for a little bit.

You take it out for a bit of a road test.

Kevin: Everyone is very happy to go
along with this plan except McCoy.

McCoy is the voice of

Rob: of course he is.

Kevin: And, uh, there's a, there's an
excellent conference room scene where

they sit down and debate the issues.

And this is the episode where
Kirk's famous "Risk is our

business" speech comes from.

Rob: Ah.

Kevin: Risk.

Risk is our business.

That's why we're aboard her!

Like it's a, it's a
surprisingly long, uh, speech.

It is often quoted in very abbreviated
form because a lot of the speech

is about specifics of the episode,
but Shatner is acting his guts out

in that, in that speech for sure.

Um.

Also around that table is Diana Muldaur,
who we know from TNG as Dr. Pulaski.

She is a guest star in two separate
episodes of the original series, uh,

Return to Tomorrow here for the first
time, and then the very next season,

less than a year later in production
time, she plays a completely different

character in Is There in Truth No
Beauty?, which is the introduction of the

Medusans who gave us Zero in uh, Prodigy.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A lot of convergence in this episode.

A lot

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

But the character she plays here is
a Lieutenant Commander and, uh, that

was called out as this is the highest
ranking female officer we ever see

in Starfleet in the original series.

Rob: Wow.

Uhura's

Kevin: And she's a for a guest star
and a very beautiful woman who was

obviously cast for her beauty at the
time, um, she plays a very active role in

debating the issues and, and like being
an active member of the Landing Party.

I feel like I'm damning her with faint
praise, but watching it for the time,

she was a very impressive presence
and reminded me of Commander Shelby

in Best of Both Worlds in, in TNG.

Very similar in in, in that even
though she's a one episode guest

star, she feels very much like a peer
to the rest of the crew during this

episode, and it's, it's really good.

Her and, her and Shatner obviously get to
kiss while occupied by husband and wife.

Uh, of course.

So there was definitely that.

But uh, but yeah, nevertheless, uh, great
character, well written, given a lot

to do of actual Starfleet work as well.

Rob: And seems almost a shame, especially
with the episodic nature at that time,

that that was, you know, a character
that we couldn't see come back and return

and possibly would've in today's, or
even in the, even in the nineties era

of Star Trek, that type of well-written,
strong character would definitely have

made at least the occasional return.

Kevin: Ultimately this, the message of
this episode is absolute power corrupts

Rob: Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin: That begins with, uh,
Hennoch who is occupying Spock's

body, who, uh, brainwashes Chapel.

Uh, these, these, when the, these
aliens are occupying our crew members,

their metabolisms run super fast.

And so they need injections in
order to not kill the host body.

And, uh, Henoch, inhabiting Spock, works
with Chapel to prepare these injections

and Spock, uh, or Hennoch explains
very coldly that, uh, Kirk is to get a

different, less potent, uh, uh, mixture.

And Chapel goes, well, won't
that kill Captain Kirk?

And he goes, yes, I don't see the problem.

Uh, Sargon will not let me
keep this body and I want to

keep this body so he must die.

And then he touches her on the forehead
and she immediately forgets everything

and is brainwashed before him.

And, and she spends the, like the next
few scenes kind of second guessing

herself and going, hang on, is this right?

Yeah, no, I'm just confused.

And it's really like really effective and
creepy to see her mind taken from her.

But no one really notices 'cause
she seems normal otherwise.

Rob: Majel Barrett would've acted
the pants off of that scene.

Kevin: Yeah, some good
Spock and Chapel stuff here.

Like, these are the scenes that I, I
am very curious how they are going to

play after we, after Strange New Worlds
runs its course and we see where Spock

and Chapel, uh, their relationship is
ultimately left because in these scenes

it is very, it is very clear that
Chapel is head over heels in love for

Spock, completely infatuated for him.

And he takes zero notice, is
completely oblivious to this.

Uh, when he is inhabited, the first
thing he says when waking up as Hennoch

is, oh, like Chapel's looking over him.

And he goes, what a beautiful woman
to wake up to after 500,000 years.

She goes, thank you.

And, and yeah, it's,
that is very played up.

And so, uh, I don't know how we are
gonna get Chapel to that point and Spock

to the point of, of completely blanking
her in these situations going forward.

Rob: It is a bold move to ghost someone
when you're still in their presence.

It's

Kevin: Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

But, uh, yeah, so Henoch
wants to do the wrong thing.

He, uh, talks, um, our, our lieutenant
commander, who has got the Sargon's

wife, he like seduces her into,
or do you really want to live in

an android body with no feeling.

Uh, you say yourself, how good it
feels to breathe and to touch again.

Can you really let that go again?

And she is, she is tempted.

At a, at a moment she snaps in like
tortures McCoy with, with ethereal flames.

And then she catches herself and
she goes, Oh no, Sargon was right.

And uh, and they inevitably defeat Hennoch
and decide that, uh, they cannot live on,

they must go off into oblivion together.

Rob: Sounds very, damn poetic to me.

Kevin: Yeah.

There's a fun fake out on the bridge,
Henoch has like taken over the bridge, uh,

and is torturing people on the bridge, and
he thinks he has killed, uh, um, Spock.

Um, but Spock is actually, Spock's
consciousness is actually in Chapel.

And then, uh, Chapel injects
him by surprise with some, some,

what he thinks is Vulcan poison.

But it's just because they're
playing a mind trick on him.

So he collapses to the floor,
flees the body, and dies.

But, uh, but Spock is fine and he
returns from Chapel into his own body.

And then Chapel's like we
shared consciousness and is

very happy about that fact.

Rob: And Spock's there
shutting it down, I bet.

Kevin: Being occupied by
this all powerful force.

Very, very much, uh, a plot line
in play very early on in Star Trek.

I have these faint memories, I don't know
how accurate they are, but I feel like

w, when I was first watching Star Trek as
a very young fan, these episodes of like

body possession were some of the ones
where I was like, I don't know about that.

This is a bit magical.

This is a little too much
fiction in my science fiction.

It like, it crossed a line for
me, but rewatching it today.

I don't know if my, like, the
goalposts have shifted, but it felt

like pretty fair stuff for Star Trek.

And I thought, uh, a showcase of
acting for especially those three

performers that were inhabited.

Rob: Oh, it's always a great one for, for
actors who are regulars on the show to get

that meaty sense of what they can do, show
their range, darling, show their range.

But it does really does sound like an
episode with a, you know, those hint

faint hints of, we were talking about it
previously about no real signs of religion

or faith within Star Trek, but there is
that sense of, you know, accepting that

your life is over and that sense of moving
on to the next plane of existence has sort

like elements of religion within there.

Kevin: Yeah, I, I think it's conspicuous
for the time that they didn't say we were

going off to heaven together or we're
going off to the afterlife together.

They said we were, we were
departing into oblivion.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: And there's some poetic like.

Yeah, there is a poetic exchange of
dialogue between them where, where, um,

where Thalassa the wife is, is saying,
I am not afraid of going to oblivion.

As long as I get to share it
with you, husband and chap,

Chapel goes, it was beautiful.

Rob: I'm so, uh, I, I haven't seen
much of Majel Barrett as Chapel.

I've seen her as number one, obviously,
and her wonderful work as Lwaxana.

Um, so to see, to see her so
lovey dovey is, uh, yeah, is

gonna be a trip for me when I, uh,
endeavor to see more of, uh, TOS.

Kevin: She was given lots to do
here and, uh, yeah, in her, in, I

think like an underrated episode.

Just 'cause it's not flashy, there's not a
lot of kinda twists or anything like that.

It, there's nothing that makes it super
memorable, but it's a solid plot and

solid performances by all concerned.

I'd, I'd definitely recommend the watch.

Rob: And with the risk is our
business, uh, monologue in there.

There we

Kevin: for sure.

Rob: Um, well, I'm gonna
jump ahead into your arena.

I'm gonna jump into, um, uh, TNG.

We're gonna go to season five, episode 15.

Let's go to Power Play.

Kevin: Very good.

That was, that, that
jumped immediately to mind.

And then I, I thought, you know what's
more interesting is this TOS episode.

So I'm glad you, I'm glad you went there.

'cause I, I love this one.

Rob: Yes, it's a really good one.

And it's like, of course, season five,
uh, firing in all cylinder cylinders.

We've got, uh, Ro in there.

Get to see Michelle Forbes.

Shout out to Michelle Forbes.

Um, and we get to see Marina Sirtis,
uh, show a bit of her acting range.

We get to see Colm
Meaney being an asshole.

Kevin: Yeah.

Not so Smiley now.

Rob: Not so Smiley at all.

And of course Brent Spiner can
do no wrong, so of course he's

gonna play, you know, a thuggish
henchman absolutely beautifully.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, I feel like this episode was
in part, uh, a writer's solution

to what do we do, give Marina

Rob: Yeah, give her some stuff, guys.

Kevin: Troi's character, the, at
least the the handed down lore is

that the writers found it challenging
to come up with storylines for

Troi that were interesting to tell.

So yeah, make her possessed by a warlord.

Give her something to do.

It's, it was, it worked really well.

Rob: So, yes, in this episode, the,
uh, the Enterprise is called to, uh,

this planet that's surrounded by an
impenetrable, sort of like storm, really.

But, um, uh, Troi's getting a
sense there's something down there.

Um, Riker takes, uh, an away
team down there and, but

they have to go via shuttle.

Um, of course it crashes.

And so,

Kevin: If it were made today,
this episode would be filmed in

the very same rock quarry as this
episode of Strange New Worlds?

Rob: Quarry, good quarry

Kevin: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's
also the same quarry that we had,

uh, for Trill in, uh, Discovery as

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, um, of course O'Brien comes
up with a solution, how he

can beam down and get enough
triangulation to beam them all back.

As they're just about to beam back, three
of the crew get hit by a lightning from

an, uh, a storm that surrounds the planet.

Um, and they woke wake up, changed.

Kevin: Solid cold open.

Rob: Solid, very solid, very
long cold, open as well.

Um, and we get ourselves, uh, into
the adventures of sort of like the

three, uh, crewmen finding each
other, wanting to go back there.

Um, even though they're planning
on leaving straight away and the

eventual, you know, locking down
of the ship, securing areas, sort

of like intrusion from the inside.

And, um, it all accumulates
with a reveal to Picard.

He like, um, Patrick Stewart
is in prime diplomat mode here.

Very honorable, sort of like your.

Kevin: Hostage negotiator.

Rob: negotiation.

My crew are far more important than me.

They want me instead.

That is a horrible Patrick Stewart.

I'll never do it again.

Uh, it's right here.

The line must be drawn here.

Uh, um, so he goes into the situation.

Uh, Ten Forward is taken over.

Um, uh, CACO is there, obviously
with a, with a baby Molly.

Young, young Molly.

Um, but of course O'Brien can't see.

Oh, it's, and he get, he get, he
gets really nasty at some point.

Anyway, um, we find out that these are
actually the members of the crew of, uh, a

Federation ship that crashed there and was
lost, was lost a 80, a hundred years ago.

A long time.

Um, and so they're trying to get, you
know, their bodies back and get their,

Kevin: It's right.

I forgot they were a crew.

I said she was a warlord.

I don't know why I remembered it that way.

I must be confusing that with a different

Rob: It's the bait and bait and switch.

Kevin: Oh, it is,

Rob: So they're act, they're, they're
saying that they're Federation, uh,

members of this particular starship, but
the way they're behaving, as they all

say, that's not Federation behavior, that
doesn't seem like Federation behavior.

So Data's, uh, possessed character
is very antagonistic towards the

Klingons, uh, to, to poor old Worf.

Kevin: Fun to see Data play emotional not
for comedy, but for for drama as well.

Rob: And he's really good.

Like he's quite intimidating.

You do not like him at all.

Marina Sirtis is really good
in that leadership role.

Cool, calm, and ruthless.

Um, but has an element of trying
to be, trying to sort of like

plead their case, but it's coming
across in a quite thuggish way.

It's not sort of like, it's a
beautiful performance of playing

someone who's trying to be somebody
else by being some, it's three levels.

So she's being possessed, so she's trying
to be, so she's Marina Sirtis, trying

to be Troi, trying to be somebody else
who's trying to pretend to be a captain.

So that's four layers right there.

So she did an

Kevin: That's an actor's
script, that is Rob.

Rob: All the, yeah, all the, all
these stage actors or you know,

your, uh, professional television
actors for a long time looking at it

going, oh, look at the juicy, juicy
steak we've got here to chew on.

Um, so yes, and what it turns out
in the end, they're not Federation,

they are obviously criminals
who existed within this storm.

Their bodies were kind of destroyed
and their essence are in there.

Not only that, there's thousands
of others up there in the storm

because this is a penal colony.

It, they're all prisoners.

They've been trapped there.

That part of their punishment for their
crimes is to be trapped in torment

for, you know, pretty much forever.

Kevin: Sounds familiar, Rob.

Rob: Are you saying a
story's being repeated again?

Kevin: Well, it must have
come through the Lens of

Rob: Yeah.

Um, so yes, uh, in the end, all is well.

They try it, it is a really clever thing
of them trying to outdo each other.

So they're coming up with plans.

So Ro and um, and, uh, Geordi are
coming up with a plan, and then they're

just about to get it, but they only
get two of them in the field, not all

Kevin: Yeah, I really remember
those scenes in the Jefferies' tube

where they're like drilling the
microscopic hole that they're going

to shoot the pain lasers through.

And I really loved all, all that business.

Like the, the, the engineering of
that solution is really fun and it,

it establishes some new geography
in the ship that there is a, there's

a Jefferies tube above Ten Forward
that really tickles me as well.

So, yeah.

Um.

I, that's what I always remember.

I hear power play.

I immediately think Ro and Geordi and
the Jefferies' tube above Ten Forward.

Rob: So, yeah, that's, uh, and in the
end, obviously the, the, the criminals go

back to their imprisonment and everyone
gets back and, um, of course Troi does

her, I could sense this and I, you
know, I could, I was watching from the

outside, but I couldn't do anything.

And then a beautiful moment right
at the end with Data and Worf going,

uh, I'm really sorry about what
I did and all the stuff I said.

It goes, it was very unpleasant.

So yes, that was uh Power Play of me
diving into TNG, which I was very, uh,

grateful to do and it was a really solid

Kevin: One of the early chapters in
the traumatization of Molly O'Brien.

Rob: Poor old Molly.

Always, constantly, yeah.

Keiko's getting her fair share of
trauma as well, not liking it at all.

I'll just a quick little mention
of, um, uh, Deep Space Nine.

I couldn't go through an
episode without Deep Space Nine.

The end of season six, episode 26, the
death of Jadzia Dax, um, with, uh, Tears

of the Prophets with, um, Gul Dukat,
uh, being possessed by the, uh, the

Kevin: Pah-wraiths.

I was gonna say the Pah-wraiths
in general is a body possession

thing that comes back again and

Rob: And yeah, pure evil type thing.

So that's like right up there with
this possession in this most recent

episode, um, of just pure evil.

You know, there to do bad and, you know,

Kevin: I said earlier that this, this,
uh, this puzzle box of Batel's um,

Gorn, uh, infection or evolution, uh,
is bringing out all sorts of theories.

One that I have heard is that
the, this is a, a Pah-wraith

thing that is coming to be.

Rob: Really.

Kevin: Uh, I have also heard
the theory that she is evolving

into the big Gorn that we see
in Arena in the original series.

And the justification I've heard that
to that one is that, uh, in, in, uh,

Arena when Kirk meets the Gorn on the
planet, um, he then does a log entry

where he, he says that the aliens that
are setting up this battle to the death,

"They call it a Gorn." Which at the
time made you think, oh, it's this new

species that Kirk has never seen before.

But we now know that Kirk is quite
familiar with the Gorn as a threat.

So what would make him to say
They call it a Gorn, other than

maybe this is an unusual Gorn?

This is not an everyday Gorn.

It looks a little different.

It looks a little like an evolved human
in what could almost be a, a, a dress.

Rob: And yeah, it is a hybrid
of human and so it's not

Kevin: Exactly.

So is, is that Gorn that Kirk battles
to the death actually captain Batel?

We shall see Rob

Rob: I wait with bated breath.

Kevin: with Batel'ed breath.

Rob: Yes.

So yes, I wanted to just mention,
um, tears of the Prophets.

Uh, a sad episode.

We lose Jadzia Dax especially.

You know, her and Worf were
getting ready to try for a baby.

And Bashir had figured out that, you
know, her Trill body would be able

to handle it with a certain way.

And the l the sadness of, uh, Bashir and
Quark at the, you know, they're finally

losing there they're, uh, they, they,
they're great White hope, which is Jadzia.

Um,

Kevin: Slightly higher stakes
than our, uh, poor Dana Gamble

this episode, but he did do a good

Rob: He did do a great job.

Um, so yes, that, I'd just
like to name drop that one.

There's, I'll come back to it another
point we've gotta do one about sta space

battles at some point, and the space
battles in this are particularly great.

Kevin: Awesome.

Alright, well thank you Rob.

Uh, we are off to our next
adventure in subspace.

Rob: We are heading there right now.

Join us, won't you?

With our next episode as we go
deeper and deeper into those worlds

that are indeed new and strange.