Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin,

Rob: and me, Rob,

Kevin: and we've got another episode
of Strange New Worlds season three.

We're up to number three.

This is Shuttle to Kenfori, or the
one with the moss zombies, Rob.

Rob: Yep.

Let's not beat around the bush, Kevin.

We have got zombies.

Zombies,

Kevin: was your first text to me after
watching the show is Zombies, Kevin.

Zombies.

Rob: Yeah, I did,

Kevin: I could not tell through the
medium of text whether you were happy

about the zombies or thought the
zombies were a tragic departure from

everything that makes Star Trek great.

So that's what we're here to talk about.

Rob: That is what we
are here to talk about.

Yeah.

So I, I am quite a fan
of the zombie genre.

I'm not obsessed with it, but
I do remember one time, many,

many years ago I was, uh.

A group of people I used to improvise
with, um, we somehow got tickets

to a swanky like, um, uh, party.

And so it was someone's house party
and it was like in St. Kilda in this

really cool house or by down by Brighton
overlooking the beach and stuff like that.

So I dunno how we got there, but, uh,

Kevin: Wow.

Fancier than the impro
parties I go to these

Rob: W— This was, yeah, w we
were, we were out of place.

But one of the members of our
team, the great Janelle Koenig,

who now lives in Perth, a wonderful
improviser, one of my dearest friends,

um, uh, we were standing around.

She, I think it had
something to do with her.

Anyway, there was one point, we're
just standing around and talking

about zombie movies, and she stopped.

She went, boys, boys, boys.

Look where we are.

This is not the place to talk
about zombie movies, all right.

And we all went.

Kevin: There's a time and

Rob: There's a time and a
place and we, we reigned it in.

Kevin: week is Star
Trek: Strange New Worlds.

Rob: So yes, I'm, I'm not as, uh,
uh, precious about my Star Trek

as, uh, other pundits online.

I haven't seen any, but I'm very
fascinated to see what you thought

of our, uh, our zombie episode.

Kevin: I'm surprised Zombies
is such a line for people.

'cause you're not the only one I've
heard who've gone, They went there.

And I was like, they've
gone everywhere else.

I don't know why we thought this
was the line they wouldn't cross.

Rob: Strange New worlds has proved itself
to be the show that will go to all the

places that other Star Trek shows are
seen as You cannot pass that point.

Kevin: Well, yeah, it is the, it is
the let's do Star Trek weird show.

That's the entire premise of the show.

That's the Strange and Strange New Worlds.

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly.

Um.

Kevin: So, yes.

I didn't think they were that strange.

And, uh, they even came up with a,
a Treknobabble explanation to do

with moss consuming other plants.

And, and, uh, they, they accident,
you know, there was a gas leak and

it merged with the local scientists
and bimba thank you, ma'am.

It's a, it's a zombie fest.

Rob: It was very, um, uh, The Trek of
Us, so moss, uh, fungus, either way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah, I, uh, how
did this show work for you?

Rob: For me it was great.

I, I, I, I loved it and especially
because, you know, considering we

talked about it a bit, um, last season
there was some addressing of, um,

some, some questions that were left
up, uh, last season about M'benga.

And this season, you know, this
episode, they went, we're, we're,

we are making it black and white.

There is no gray area anymore.

We are answering those questions.

We are letting you know and sure.

Kevin: stabbed him.

Rob: Yeah.

He done it.

He done did it, and he
would done do it again.

Kevin: Yeah, I, uh, I mean, every
Star Trek, every long time Star Trek

family like me, watches the M'benga
scenes and goes, he is such a mild

mannered sidekick to McCoy in TOS.

How does he get there?

I mean, obviously he's not gonna
get drummed outta star fleet.

He's not gonna get stabbed to death by
a cling on or bitten by a moss zombie.

But you know, he, he,
there's clearly an arc here.

This is a, this is a raw and damaged
M'benga who seems relatively well

adjusted later on in the original series.

So yeah, how does he find
that piece with his past?

Like, that I think is the interesting, um,
plot that we're, we're getting unfolded

a, a little at a time here and yeah, I,
I think we got more than I was expecting.

They were like, I applaud them.

Just like, okay, let's answer the
questions and move on from there, rather

than like continuing to string it out.

Rob: Definitely, definitely.

And I liked there was a lot of, uh,
like, like you said, Treksplanation

to make everything work.

This is a planet that nobody goes to
in an area that is cut off, that no one

can go into that area, so it is so, and
nobody will ever talk about it again.

Literally at the end, there
goes, this is off the books, so

let's never mention it again.

So much so that they can go.

We've done zombies once and we
can never talk about it again.

Kevin: If anyone asks what
happened to our shuttle craft,

just, uh, change the subject.

Rob: Let's talk about fishing.

Let's talk about going fishing.

Um, and, uh, uh, bringing in the
Klingons, uh, to deal with this issue

was, uh, a great way to get around it.

But there was also an

Kevin: I enjoy getting some
Klingons being Klingony on screen.

Like this feels like they're, they're,
they, you know, pulled it back just a

little bit from the strangeness of the
Discovery era Klingons honored what

they'd done there, but like made these
Klingons a bit more recognizably, Klingon.

Rob: It was definitely an e evolution
'cause it was more of our familiar,

um, Klingon makeup from say, the
nineties era that started with, uh, the

motion pitcher back in the seventies.

But their clothing was still quite
Discovery esque, like silver, like

Kevin: I mean, yeah, you read, you read
the behind the scenes stuff from Discovery

and the intent was always that there
are, you know, there are many kinds of

Klingons, there are different houses
with different styles and different

looks and different, uh, customs.

And so we got to see some.

Klingon houses and some Klingon types
that we had not seen before in Discovery.

But the intent was always that the
Klingons we knew well were there as well.

And I feel like we got, we got the lady
Klingon who was leading the two very, um,

Rob: The red

Kevin: ordinary Klingons.

Yeah, yeah.

The red shirts of that party were much
more, I think, traditionally Klingon to

me, whereas the, the, the, the senior
officer of that, uh, that mission was,

I think, closer to what we had seen in
Discovery, not just because it was a,

a strong female character, which we had
plenty in the Klingons in Discovery,

but, uh, also I thought she was, she was
a, a bit more of that, that guttural,

um, a truly alien Klingon rather than
the, the Klingon that is like dressed

in armor with a, with a forehead patch.

Rob: Yes.

And especially, uh, to quote,
uh, Chekhov in Star Trek five,

she has wonderful muscles.

Um, uh, but yes, I, I particularly
liked, uh, you know, that I always love

a good bit of beau, beautiful bit of,
uh, Klingon logic and so that M'benga

needed to die because of, you know,
because the Klingon, her, her father

was seen as a embarrassment because of
dealing with peace, and so because he was

Kevin: You robbed me of the
opportunity to murder my father.

Rob: to kill my own

Kevin: You must die.

Rob: And they're going, of course,

Kevin: Of course,

Rob: Klingon's gonna Klingon.

Kevin: I love some backwards alien logic.

That's a great Star Trek trope.

Rob: I loved her

Kevin: I really liked the, uh, Pike
M'benga banter as well, like before

the Klingon showed up, and the moss
zombies emerged from the shadows.

Just like the talk about fishing and their
past together, like, reestablishing the

friendship as that platform for, uh, pike
to overlook the, the rather dramatic news

that gets revealed late in the episode.

Um, some nice like quiet character
building there that I, I, I think was a

highlight of the episode for me as well.

Rob: It definitely had a lot of variety.

So you had those quiet moments, you
had those intense moments when Pike was

outraged about not being told about Batel.

You had, you had the humorous moments
of, but it actually worked out to

be quite a beautiful moment as well,
like Pike's there going zombies

and M'benga going, these were once
scientists and people are there.

You know, let's,

Kevin: Don't call them zombies.

Rob: Let's, let's give them
the respect they deserve.

so.

Kevin: They sound like zombies to me!

Rob: Don't use the Zed word if we're going
to, if I'm gonna quote Shaun of the Dead.

Um, especially because we haven't had
much of Pike and M'Benga since that,

you know, the episode where, you know,
M'Benga did, uh, did the stabbing.

Um, it's great to take that moment and
especially to give Pike a full episode.

'cause like we've talked about,
you know, season three, season

two was, uh, you know, Pike AWOL.

Um, said, let's go, let's just give
him a, a mission with M'benga and get

Kevin: Yeah.

A proper away mission with, yeah.

Rob: And especially now, 'cause
Anson Mount's, Anson Mount's, uh,

uh, a father for a second time.

So,

Kevin: Yeah.

I hear it's happening again.

Rob: So I've con yeah, they've
finished season four from what

I've heard, so hopefully his,
uh, time for season five is, uh.

Um, is available.

Um, uh, being a, a new daddy.

But yes, I love their dynamic.

I love their relationship and I
love the, the juggling of, of moral.

So, you know, the area is gray and,
um, and Pike is not as you know,

but he's never been a, uh, uh, a boy
scout when it comes to the Federation

and, and all that type of stuff.

He's very connected to his people.

Kevin: There were, once the, once
the zombies came out and the, the

phasers started firing, uh, it, it
started to feel a little cheap to me.

Like it felt like their,
their vision exceeded their

budget, uh, at a certain point.

The zombies like breaking through
the window looked a little,

a little Benny Hill to me.

And, uh.

And yeah, the, the two Startfleet
officers hiding in the cabinet and

we just see flashes of red phasers.

And then they're like, you can
come out, or, you know, it's

all, all the fighting's over.

It's like, oh yeah, they
saved some money there.

There, there it, it was kind of
like, let's speed pass all the

expensive stuff, it felt like.

Rob: It was trying to cram a, a, all the
genre traits into the Star Trek logic.

So going, there's this whole planet
and there's, you know, there's

forest ranges and stuff like that.

Oh.

But everything is in this
conti contained one building

Kevin: On the roof of this one

Rob: Yes.

Of they're

Kevin: happens to have, uh.

force field emitters laid out, uh, on it.

That that rooftop scene felt
to me like it was conceived as

the set piece of the episode.

Like some writer went, I can see it, you
know, drone sweeping drone shot over the

top of a, of a abandoned installation.

There's force field emitters and around
it is just this throng of zombies

throwing themselves against it while
inside a Klingon duels with M'benga.

Like it must have
sounded so epic on paper.

For whatever reason, be it the direction,
be it lack of budget, the shots were

all really tight and I just did not have
that sense of epic proportions here.

It was all a bit cheap to me in
how it turned out on the screen.

Rob: Yes, it's an inspiring
idea that came, didn't come

across as completely inspiring.

I definitely get that.

I definitely get that.

Um, and we're

Kevin: But I, I, you know, I've been
a Star Trek fan before they had any

budget to speak of Rob, so I, I was
happy to, uh, go along with the story.

Rob: You're the og.

The og.

Um, I love, I love the, I love
my myself a Klingon whip battle

whip that I've never seen before.

Kevin: No, I've never seen a
Klingon whip before either.

Rob: Um, and, uh, the return, the
shut shuttle ship was something that

we saw in Discovery, I believe I,
I think I, that looked familiar.

Kevin: Yeah, they did some fun
stuff with like, moving the camera

in front of the, the windscreen of
the ship in order to make it, to

imply the maneuvers they were doing.

And again, like, yeah, let's
save a little money here.

No need to actually see the stars.

Um, and uh, it worked really well.

Like I, I, I was like, oh
yeah, I can feel the turn.

So, yeah.

Rob: Um,

Kevin: effective, uh, some
effective cost savings here.

Rob: Exactly.

And we haven't even talked about
the B plot, where, um, finally

Kevin: a whole other show.

Rob: there's a whole

Kevin: part of the problem, I
think as well, is they were like,

they were cramming a lot of story
into, into one episode here.

Rob: Yes, they can't give Ortegas
a full episode for herself.

But they can give her half an episode
where, uh, we can focus on her.

And she really, um, stepped up.

There's, she's going through
a lot at the moment and, uh,

Kevin: Yeah, she stepped it up
about one eighth impulse power, Rob.

Rob: When she wasn't meant to,

Kevin: No.

Uh, I really liked it.

Uh, I, for me, that was my favorite part
of this episode is the, the, the, um, the

cost of breaking the rules, uh, stuff.

Like I, I know modern Star Trek
is all about the feelings, but.

Every once in a while, it's nice to be
reminded this is a military organization

where people are expected to follow orders

Rob: There is that

Kevin: the procedure of that,
the, the chain of command of that.

I really enjoy that stuff.

And, uh, getting to A explore Ortegas
is damage with that story, but also

like see how the chain of command works.

See how Una works as a manager who
has to like, yank the chain a bit

here and say, uh, not acceptable.

Rob: And how good, how was Rebecca Romijn?

Just

Kevin: She was

Rob: incredible as number one and just
goes, give her own ship, um, dealt with.

Kevin: Watching her and La'an do the
captain first officer dynamic and like,

you know what, you know what it's like
to deal with the Gorn trauma, right?

you're like, oh, okay, I get it.

You know, very, very great to see Una
on the one hand, like defend her officer

to La'an, uh, but at the same time
discipline her officer when needed.

Rob: And listen to everything.

So Scotty was there, um, because
Pelia doesn't do those meetings.

Oh, you didn't contract Carol, Carol
Kane for all, for that many episodes.

She, for that

Kevin: No, but it also tells
us that like Scotty is now a

effectively a regular, right?

He's no longer a guest

Rob: Yeah, exactly.

Um, and, uh, how Una balances that out.

Um, in Incre, an incredible way of
the discipline, the disciplinary,

uh, scene between the two of them.

She's going, oh, I'm in trouble.

This looks serious.

And, and Una never raised a voice.

Always remain calm.

And, but said, these are the facts.

This is clearly what you've
done and this is what

Kevin: Look me in my eye
and tell me I'm wrong.

Rob: That, that stuff, yeah.

That was the Star Trekkiest
of Star Trek stuff.

Kevin: Yeah, and I, I liked it.

I just wish these two A and b
plots didn't, uh, clash so badly.

'cause the whole point of
the A plot is don't tell

Starfleet we're breaking orders.

And the whole point of the B
plot is never break orders.

And the fact that these two
things are in one episode makes

that contrast especially violent.

Uh, so I was kind of going, yeah.

Uh, don't break orders in the middle
of that mission that Starfleet

Rob: completely breaking orders.

Yeah.

I did like the, uh, the final
scene as well with, uh, Batel and

Pike and her line particularly.

Um, I can't worry about how
feeling bad for, for hurting

your feelings about her death.

Hurting your

Kevin: tears.

That was so real.

That was like, I don't know if it's cancer
allegory or something else, but that

like felt really real that like I, I can
barely deal with this, my own feelings

about this, let alone your feelings

Rob: Incredible.

It's so good.

The two of them are dynamic together
and uh, I know he is gonna end

up with Melissa George, but um,

Kevin: Yeah, there's a, I mean,
there's a little risk we're making

some of our characters unlikable here.

Like Ortegas did not come out particularly
well this episode, but I feel like

that's clearly part of the arc. Clearly,
you know, a consequence of the trauma

that she faced earlier in the season.

Pike, I think, has a similar thing going
that the, the more like he is a strange

blend of flappable and unflappable.

He's, he's like the unflappable captain
in the face of the zombies, but then,

you know, threaten his girlfriend
with a medical, uh, uh, situation and

he goes completely off the deep end.

On the one hand like that, those,
you know, we contain multitudes, and

the fact that that captain has such a
strong emotional response to one thing

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: his cool in situations that have
to do with his captaincy is an interesting

character trait in its own right.

But, uh, I still like, I, I, I
doubt anyone watched this episode

and said, I like Pike more.

I think Pike needs to come
back from some aspects of this

Rob: Look, you're right Kevin.

They're playing fast
and loose with his flap.

And um, and that's the thing.

I think we've developed enough of a
connection with them and enough love

for them that, to see that that shade
for both of them, that, that that's

what makes good drama, isn't it, really?

And

Kevin: Yeah, in the third season of a
show, we should be ready for that stuff.

It's just that these
are such short seasons.

It feels like we're rushing to the
meaty stuff before we even really

know these characters very well.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, going back and watching
classic episodes on there going, oh,

I'm watching episode 25 of a season.

Oh.

Oh, we didn't know how
well we had it back then.

Kevin: Did we both watch
episode 25, this week, I wonder?

'Cause that is, uh, the episode
number that I brought to talk

about horror in Star Trek.

Rob: Yes, that is our topic for this week.

We could not avoid any of the, you
came up with some gallant attempts

of other things that we can focus
on, and as soon as you typed in the

word horror, I went, there is, yeah.

Kevin: You get a Klingon stomping
a skull and the, you know,

the mucus squirting out of it.

I think we have our topic.

Rob: You have, uh, a leg being grabbed
and pulled out and it's been gnawed off.

Come on, we are doing horror.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: So yes, I have got an episode 25 of a
certain season for a particular franchise.

Kevin: Oh, wow.

So, uh, I, I wonder if we had a match.

I brought, uh, TNG season one, episode 25.

Rob: Uh, I bought DS9,
season five, episode 25.

Empok Nor.

Kevin: Ah, well let's start, uh,
let's start with the first one.

So, uh, yeah, TNG, uh, episode
25 of the very first season.

This is the second last
episode of the season,

Rob: If any way,

Kevin: bumpy season as
we established last week.

Rob: if anything, that whole season
is a horror show from what we've.

Kevin: Yeah.

You know, the, the fraying threads must
have been at their breaking point here

in the second last episode of the season.

Uh, the episode is Conspiracy and it is
the one where, um, a, a conspiracy that is

implied earlier in the season is paid off.

In, in an earlier episode
of the, in the season.

Um.

Admiral Quinn and his aide, uh, commander
Remic come aboard the Enterprise in

order to inspect and just we're just
asking questions and they refrain from

explaining why they have questions
about the Enterprise crew, but they

are there apparently, like seeking
dissent or seeking, um, evil doers.

Um, there is a lot of implication that
people failed at things purposefully,

and then it's like, oh no, I, I, we did
not mean to imply anything whatsoever.

And then at the end of the episode when
the, the Enterprise crew is cleared of

all wrongdoing, Admiral Quinn confides
to Picard that there is a conspiracy

in the highest levels of Starfleet.

Uh, and this is left as a
dangling plot thread that is

paid off here in Conspiracy.

Um, and this is, this episode is known
for, uh, being the one where they did

stuff that felt like it didn't belong
in Star Trek, in the horror department.

There, there is a lot of like,
creepy body horror stuff in this.

The, I mean, the short version of the
plot is that senior members of Starfleet

have been taken over by parasites.

Those parasites are these little bugs
that crawl in your mouth, and yet you

can find someone's infected by the fact
that they have a little, a little tail

sticking outta the back of their neck.

Uh.

Picard gets invited to dinner at
Starfleet command where all the

commanders are eating bowls of worms,
and, uh, Picard is disgusted by this.

And they end up, uh, bringing out
the phasers and chasing people down.

And the last one to go is Remmick the
assistant to Admiral Quinn, who is

sitting in this, basically a throne
with a galactic map behind him.

And, uh, one of the bugs crawls
up his arm and goes in his mouth.

And then they've got his, his neck kind
of like swelling with the bugs inside him.

And, uh, Picard and Riker kind of
grimace and fire full phases at the guy.

The whole top of his body is
blown out with chunks of meat and

you see the exposed ribcage with
the mummy alien inside going.

And then they both phaser it to death.

End of episode.

And it was like, what
the hell just happened?

It really has a feeling of,
this one got away from them.

That at a certain point they were like,
well, we built the puppet, you know?

There's no, like, it's been built, the
money's been spent, we have to do it.

And uh, they just, they just went with it.

Rob: Are we going with

Kevin: let's not speak of that ever again.

Rob: Are we going with the extra
ooze or do we No, don't hold back.

We've got an extra canister of ooze.

No, no, no.

Bring it all out.

Kevin: There is a, the, the, the very,
like the stinger on the end of the

episode, if you will, is that there is
a, they detect a, uh, a signal that was

sent out just before the end of things
and the signal, uh, is presumed to be

like the alien summoning reinforcements.

And it's like, oh, it might not be over.

Uh,

Rob: And we never see them

Kevin: never went back there.

I think there was a, there was a gag or
two made about it in, uh, Lower Decks,

but other than that, we have never
returned to the, um, invading bug hoard.

Rob: That never got a name.

Kevin: No, they never got a name.

Picard asks, like they
ask, what is your race?

Where are you from?

And they say, it's not important.

So it's like, yeah, don't worry
about the details is very much, uh,

Rob: Look at this puppet we made of a
rib cage and a and a oozy slug inside.

Kevin: Yeah.

So I mean, some of the lore around this
was they were originally intending,

intending to set this up as the start of
the Borg, when the Borg were originally

conceived as like an insectoid race,
that there might be a link there.

But by the time they aired this, they
decided to drop that and the Borg were

gonna be something else in season two.

Um, the writer of this episode,
originally, there was no

parasite or insectoid threat.

It was a conspiracy of senior
members of Starfleet to, um, do

away with the Prime Directive.

It was like the prime
directive is holding us back.

We could be so much more if we didn't
have our hands tied behind our backs

by the Prime Directive and that
this is what would be rooted out.

And Gene Roddenberry refused.

He said, there's no way.

The whole point of Star Trek is that
humanity has figured this stuff out.

Uh, I do not want members of Starfleet to
be doing the wrong thing intentionally.

That is not this show.

And they were like, okay, I
guess we gotta do bugs then.

Uh, you can almost imagine them
doing a bad job of that out of spite.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And it seems a little bit Trill like as
well, like an evil version of the Trill

Kevin: Yeah, it is.

Uh, yeah.

If you can imagine the Trill as, as a
malevolent, that is what this episode is.

Yeah.

Rob: Well, clearly Gene
Roddenberry didn't know about

our, uh, episodes on bad admirals.

Um, so Pity just didn't
have that foresight.

He had a lot of vision.

He had a vision, but just not
for our podcast, which is,

Kevin: Yes, Admiral Quinn and the other
admiralty here are very much bad admirals

by, by the end, due to the invasion.

The, the early stuff, similar to the
episode of Strange New Worlds this week.

Like the stuff before the conspiracy is
revealed, before the bugs come out and the

phasers start firing, is, uh, enjoyable.

Like, I think the mystery is fun.

There's like lots of, you know,
covert messages and trust no ones, and

come back to Starfleet headquarters
'cause something's terribly wrong.

All of that stuff is like delectable,
but in the end you do have to pay it off.

And the payoff was disappointing
slash shocking and completely

outta character for Star Trek.

So this is one where I think the
horror didn't work, and I think they

probably, you know, scared themselves
away from doing horror for a while.

Rob: They definitely scared
themselves away from returning

to that, uh, species, definitely.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin: So what, uh, what happened in DS9?

Rob: Well, yes, I was thinking about
episodes we've already explored.

So we have kind of
looked at First Contact.

There's some horror stuff
with the Borg in there, which

Kevin: yeah, totally.

Rob: in incredible.

Um, we have talked about, um, uh, the
Vidiians in, uh, Voyager, especially like

Faces, which is a very horrific episode.

But, um, I had to go back to, uh,
DS9, which is actually episode 24.

I just double checked.

Yeah.

Off by one.

So this is, uh, season five.

So when things are really kicking
along with the Dominion War, um, and

this is where, uh, the whole system
within Deep Space Nine is kind of

falling apart and, uh, uh, O'Brien
and Nog are working on the system and

it just doesn't seem to be working.

Um, so they have to go to, uh, uh.

The sister, uh, uh, space

Kevin: Yeah, they need
a spare part for the,

Rob: Yeah.

For the, yeah.

And so they have to go to Empok
Nor, which has been, you know,

abandoned and left behind.

But they need to take, uh, a Cardassian
who will know about the booby traps and

the DNA of a Cardassian to get on board.

And so they take, oh,
it's a Garak episode.

'cause of

Kevin: Ambassador Garak, if you will,
uh, according to the, the, the, the

name on the wall in the Starfleet
Academy trailer that was glimpsed

Rob: That's right.

Yes.

We, yeah, that's a bit of a diversion.

We've had a little bit of Star
Trek news dropping outta Comic-Con.

We had the, the trailer for
Star Trek Academy finally drop.

It looks interesting, a lot of,
lot of debate about a female

Jem'Hadar, um, the trailer for Khan.

The Audio Adventure.

Kevin: podcast.

Rob: Yes.

Audio adventure

Kevin: wish they'd stop
calling it a podcast.

Just audio drama sounds so
much better than podcast.

Who would want to put their name
to something called a podcast Rob?

Rob: In the world of
Star Trek, I hear you!

Um, and of course, uh, puppet Pike with,
uh, which we'll talk about at some point.

Um, but yes, so, uh, so taking a band
of, uh, yellow shirts that are red

shirts, um, with them, Nog, O'Brien,
uh, um, Garak and these, uh, uh, you

know, destined for death, um, officers
head off to, uh, Empok Nor and it turns,

Kevin: something that we
haven't seen in a while.

Like I don't know if they've dropped
that trope deliberately in Strange

New Worlds, but you could imagine a
version of this episode where Pike and

M'Benga brought a few red shirts along
to get eaten by the zombies, right?

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

We just get the Klingon red
shirts and we got not a single.

Kevin: Oh, I loved when it got bitten
and she immediately like phases

him while he's still being bitten.

Yeah.

Rob: You know it.

You know that stuff.

As soon as they're infected, kill 'em.

Um, uh, and so what begins then is
then hunting down, trying to stop the

booby traps, but them coming onboard,
the sh onboard the space station

activates, uh, these chambers with, uh,
Cardassian soldiers inside a part of,

like the death squad cult, like the,
the highest of the high, the deadliest

of the deadly within the Cardassian
um, high com, you know, high echelons.

Uh, one has been killed because
of like a, a, a, a paling

system came down and crashed it.

But the other two, not only are they
deadly, uh, Cardassians, but they've

been, some gas has been released
that makes them even more xenophobic.

Um, and of course, Garak gets
caught up in that as well.

So they're hiding in the shadows
and it's really effective making

these Cardassians terrifying and the

Kevin: is one of those ones where
the, the, the episode on the page

was laughable, but they managed
to pull it off through sheer

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: good lighting.

Rob: You know, setting up those
archetypes of the characters that are

the red shirts, you see them, you find
out a little bit about them before they

die, so it's not just, you know, some
guy who shows up, doesn't say a word.

You get to feel some.

Kevin: before you shoot, let
me tell you my life story.

Rob: Um, you get the, who's the coward,
who's, who's into collecting, who's, uh,

wants to have a fight, uh, who's the calm
one, uh, within the arrangement of it.

And then of course, the ultimate
twist is that Garak gets,

um, caught up in it as well.

But there's a great banter between Garrick
and um, O'Brien all the way through.

'Cause Garrick's there going, oh,
you, you know, you were the hero

of a certain battle back in the
Cardassian war and you know, you, you

know, led men and you saved them all
and you killed so many Cardassians.

Tell me about it.

Kevin: Just like Spock, Garak is at
his most interesting when the veil

slips, when the, when you know you
see the monster behind the mask.

Rob: And he's just, yeah.

And that's, that's the, you know,
the, the, um, the fun stuff that

he doesn't like being trusted.

He's there going, you're taking
me along because you trust me.

Well, I don't like that at all.

And, and evil, you know, demented,
psychotic, Garak is, uh, a work of art.

Like there's a, there's a moment,
it doesn't really pay off that well.

If, if they could have, if again,
it's a money thing, like at the end

when O'Brien's, uh, trying to find
Garak, 'cause Garak's captured Nog and

Nog's the only one, you know, left.

He comes onto the Promenade section.

So it's great to see the sets,
you know, turned into, you know.

Um, desolate versions
of what they really are.

But as he walks into the Promenade
to confront Garak, the bodies of the

left of the remaining humans, uh,
are there, kind of strung up, but you

know, in a cheap sort of PG TV way.

So they're kind of just
up against the wall.

And so they're not like
hanging from a high rafter like

Kevin: Yeah.

They didn't have that Star Trek II money.

Rob: Yeah.

Um, so they're there and it's still
quite horrifying and confronting, but

it's a little bit, eh, it's cheap.

And so finally, you know, um, O'Brien uses
his engineering skills to create like a

dummy bomb that blows up in Garak's face.

And they get him, they
get saved and rescued.

Um, and then there's a confront.

Oh.

'cause he actually stabs one of
the, the, uh, the humans when

he's caught up in his face.

So he kills someone while Yes.

So at the end, while he's being repaired
by Bashir, his lover, um, O'Brien comes

in and, uh, you can see Garak is quite
embarrassed and says, please pass on

my, uh, my condolences to the dead
man's wife because, you know, I don't

think she would want to talk to me.

Um, and he go, you know, if I had been
any closer, I, you would've killed me.

And, and O'Brien says, you know,
I hope you don't take this the

wrong way, but that was the plan.

Kevin: That was the plan.

Yeah.

Rob: So yes, it does have that
horrific element and there are parts

of them going, oh my gosh, okay,
this is like, people are expendable.

The darkness is not your friend using all
those horror tropes of the monster hidden.

Um, but from a race that we have got
to see as more than just monsters.

It's, it's interesting
to flip back to that.

Um, we talked about last week
with sort of like the Gorn.

We spend a lot of time in Hegemony
Part I showing there is range to them.

And then with part two, they
just go back to being monsters.

Um, with this they, you,
we, they start as monsters.

We find out more about their culture
then for this particular episode, um,

they're psycho xenophobic, uh, drug
addled, uh, versions of Cardassians

so they can be the monsters.

Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, yeah.

I feel like there's a, there's a,
a related theme we could explore

sometime of like the, the fellow crew
member who is like trusted, like.

They are, they're defanged in
a way, and then suddenly things

get a little outta control.

I feel like that happens with Seven
of Nine in her Borg, uh, background.

Every once in a while it slips and
she's becomes a danger to her, her

own crew, and uh, maybe T'Pol in
Enterprise to a certain extent as well.

Rob: it is definitely a case of,
it may be a little bit of Odo.

Um,

Kevin: Hmm.

Rob: but yeah, it is that case
of the episodic nature of this,

even for Deep Space Nine, which
is, you know, revolutionary in its

story arcs and stuff like that.

This is kind of something that's dropped.

And so there, it, it, it isn't referred
back to specifically, but there is that

element of just adding color and texture
to Garak and his relationships with, with

O'Brien and what he means to everyone.

But there isn't that, in the case of no
direct reference to those who died again

and what that actually means for someone
who's now back on, oh, he just killed

someone, but he was affected by drugs.

Kevin: Yeah.

The other thing you reminded me of
of is the power of turning off the

lights on the sets you already have.

Um.

Rob: Especially back in, especially
back in nineties Star Trek, where, you

Kevin: Yeah, but they're
not above that now.

Like the, the inter the introduction
of the Gorn, the episode where

Hemmer died was basically on, on
redress sets of the Enterprise

masquerading as a crashed starship.

Rob: Yes.

Oh, I thought you just meant,
uh, turning the lights down.

Kevin: no, no.

Yeah.

It's like we're going to this other place.

It's really scary.

It happens to be the exact same
sets that were on every single week.

We just turned off the lights.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, yeah, I thought it was more a
case of, well, we need to light

everything really brightly because
we are covering everything in, like,

with multiple cameras and we don't
have time to shoot it like a movie.

Um, sort of like eighties Doctor
Who, where they did multicam

and all the fluorescent lights
are on no mood lighting at all.

But, uh, but yes, redress everything.

Turn the lights down and go,
Ooh, look at this new location.

Kevin: Yeah, well I love
a good creepy Star Trek.

I even one, like, one that, uh,
like tiptoes right up to the lines

of horror trope, uh, for a week.

But there is, I think Conspiracy is proof
there is a line and you can cross it.

Rob: Yeah, I am kind of intrigued
to watch it now, you know, for all

the, for all the wrong reasons, so,

Kevin: It is for, it might be the
schlockiest episode of Star Trek: The

Next Generation of them all, and if you
just wanna see how, how off track they

can get, it's, it's worth watching.

Rob: It sounds like a trauma film.

It sounds very, you know, you know
very much like, you know, that type

of exploitation type of, uh, uh,
and on a, on a TV show, what, 1987.

That's wild.

Kevin: I guess they got away with things
because there just was not as much

eyeballs on the work as there are today.

Rob: Yeah.

And it, the, they were able to,
you know, they had time, they had

seasons to find their feet, which we

Kevin: They had time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We, I guess you're saying in
modern Star Trek we've had

time to work out the formula.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah.

Well,

Kevin: then in TNG, season one, right
at the end of a ragged season, they were

probably like, we, we know it sucks,
but we just don't have any more time.

Rob: But even at that time, they,
they knew they were coming back

for a second season, or they Yeah.

I one assumes.

So, like, you know, with.

What the classic definition of old
school Star Trek in that eighties,

nineties era is that, you know, star,
you know, um, d Space nine doesn't

get good until say season four.

Um, you know, Next Gen
doesn't get good until season.

It has a good episodes here
or there still season three.

Yeah.

Um, but nowadays, you know, we barely
have a season like 25 episodes, that's,

that's, that's pretty much four seasons.

Yeah.

Kevin: exactly.

Um, before we go this week, I just,
I did wanna give you one more chance

to talk about Jim Henson and his
Muppets coming to Star Trek because

the, that is a, that is smack d dab in
the middle of your Venn diagram, Rob.

Rob: Look it, it, look, we've, we talked
about, you know, those one-off type of

tropes when it comes to genre shows.

Like we did not, uh, e uh, enjoy,
uh, uh, um, the, the musical

episode of, uh, season two.

And that's become sort of like a
common trope within genre shows

and there has become a genre.

Trait to have a puppet episode
now when, when it was described?

Yeah.

Well, it's kind of like there,
there was a puppet episode

of, uh, Angel, um, where an.

Angel turned into a puppet.

Just Angel.

And that's the last sort of like, fun
episode before everything goes to hell.

Um, in the, that's the, that's like the,
one of the final four episodes of Angel.

There's, um, during the gas leak
year of Community, which is by

default, a, um, a genre show.

In season four, which is
notoriously a bad year.

Um, there's a puppet
episode, which is horrible.

Um, so to have a puppet episode,
or as Akiva Goldsman, I think said

it was, it was a Muppet episode.

And I went, Ooh, that's, um,
that's a very particular word.

That's a promise.

And then I saw the puppet and I
went, it's a beautiful puppet.

And it's clearly Anson Mount's voice.

And then for them to announce
Jim Henson's Creature Shop has

created them, I went, I'm in.

I'm sold.

Kevin: I think the production
value will be there.

My, like, my expectations are
low just because I don't have

any particular attachment to Jim
Henson's Muppets, other than it was

a show I watched while growing up.

But, uh.

I expect the, the quality will be on
the screen as far as production value.

And if what you're looking for is
the artistry, I'm sure it will be

there in spades and really enjoyable.

I'm a little worried it's gonna be another
disposable, like thinly justified, um,

hour of TV in an all too short season.

And I worry what stories it will
take us away from being able to tell.

But um, yeah, I'm here for it.

Like, far be it from me to, um.

To

judge Strange New Worlds
from being strange.

That is the, that is
the mission of the show.

And, you know, bring
on the puppets, I say.

If that's what you're trying to
do with your show, this sounds

like a great way to do it.

I, I probably look forward to
different Star Trek more, but, um,

I look forward to be proving wrong.

I mean, low expectations are the formula
for being pleasantly surprised, they say.

Rob: Well, getting in the pedigree
that is the Jim Henson company,

they, they are the best in the
world at this type of puppetry.

Uh, Jim Henson revolutionized how
puppets, uh, conceived in the modern

era and pretty much made the television
screen the, the, uh, the puppet stage

that they used to be trapped behind.

And so he really mastered and taught
all the people within his company how

to puppeteer for a television screen.

And, um, whether it's out on location
that they revolutionized with The Muppet

Movie, um, or, uh, in a studio with, with
human actors interacting with puppets.

So it'll be very interesting to see.

I know the quality of the puppetry will
be amazing, and I know that sounds like

a very nerdy thing, but you can tell the
difference of how a puppet comes alive if

they're done by a high quality puppeteer
or just, um, someone who is an enthusiast.

And you've gonna get some of the
best puppeteers in the world, you

know, taking on these characters
to see how they're represented.

How they move, how they interact with the
humans, if it is that type of episode.

They're my, that's my favorite type of
puppetry scenes where you have humans

interacting with puppets and how humans
are affected by puppets, but also

how puppets are affected by humans.

That's a beautiful world.

Kevin: it looks, I, I look
forward to seeing whether that

happens or if it's just like snap.

They're all puppets.

Snap.

They're all human.

Rob: Yeah.

It's gonna, well, we'll have to, it's
a, it's a, and another season away.

But, um, I, I've

Kevin: late next year, I guess.

Rob: I've always got my hopes up when
the word Jim Henson is mentioned, so yes.

Kevin: Well, uh, looking forward to it.

I can't, one way or the other, I'm
in suspense for what it will be.

Rob: Yes.

And I'm in suspense for, for our next
episode directed by Mr. Jonathan Frakes.

Kevin: Yeah, the, uh, the mystery hour.

I look forward to seeing it.

All right.

Well, until next week, Rob,
I'll see you around the galaxy.

Rob: Take care.

Have a good one.