Episode 51: Starships bumping into planets (DIS 5×01 Red Directive, DIS 5×02 Under the Twin Moons)

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's still me Kevin,

Rob: and it's still me, Rob.

Kevin: How dare they start Star
Trek in the middle of a comedy

festival is all I have to say, Rob.

Rob: Look, look, Discovery had an
uphill battle with me anyway, and it's

it's not doing itself any favours.

It's making it very hard for me to love by
putting it on during the busiest time of

the independent theatre, comedy, improv,
cabaret, burlesque scene in Melbourne,

to chuck it on right smack bang in the
middle of four weeks of fun and hell,

and do you want to come see my show?

Have you seen my show?

What's going on?

Oh, it's a tough festival.

It's a quiet festival.

It's a tough festival.

It's a fun festival.


Kevin: For any of our listeners who may
be outside of Melbourne, the Melbourne

Comedy Festival is on at the moment,
which is always a busy time for Rob.

And so all this week I've
been like, you watched it yet?

Have the Trek yet?

every time I asked, I felt like, you
know, I am, I am raising the bar for

what this episode has to do to be a
good time for Rob Lloyd and not a chore.

Rob: Look, if there was any way for
me to enjoy watching Discovery, it

is watching it knowing that I'll
get to talk about it with you.

You are go, oh, listeners, you are not
going to have our usual sort of, like,

Kevin: It's not going to
be unvarnished praise?

Rob: You're gonna be dragging me along.

You're gonna dragging me through
this entire season, kevin.

And me, like a perpetual teenager,
going, Are we, are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Kevin: Star Trek Prodigy Season 2 will
be along soon enough to provide respite.

Rob: Very excited.

Very excited to get back into the,
into Prodigy and, and travel, with,

uh, Janeway, which is the real Janeway.

Kevin: Mmm!

But we're here to talk about the two
first episodes of season five of Star Trek

Discovery, episode one, Red Directive,
and episode two, Under the Twin Moons.

In Red Directive, there
is a secret mission.

They don't know why they're on the
secret mission, but they must go on it.

It's very red.

There is, there's a desert planet and a
lot of scooter bikes that have been teased

for, it feels like, more than a year.

It feels like more than a year we
saw the first trailer with this.

Scooter bikes in the desert, so it was
good to finally see where that was.

Rob: When the big trailer came out,
they were pushing this scooter bike

sequence, so it's been, um, glad it's
right at the top end of the season

to go, Here it is, this is what we've
been promising you for, over a year.

Kevin: And at the end, uh, two starships
nose down into the planet's surface,

and that, that is the thing we will be
talking about in the second half of this

episode, that, that moment of contact
– first contact, you might call it – of

Starships bumping into large objects.

Rob: I was gonna say double
contact, but there's a little

bit of, a, a hint of sauciness
connected to it, which, you know.

Would you expect any
less from me, Kevin Yank?

Kevin: So, this episode, Red Directive,
big picture, what'd you make of it?

Rob: Okay, so right off the bat,
I think I've made it very clear.

I am not the biggest Discovery fan.

Um, I tried in vain to go back and finish
season four in preparation for this.

I got two episodes in
and I couldn't do it.

Kevin: Did the recap at the start
make any sense to you at all?

Cause I it and I was like, if I
hadn't seen those episodes, I would

not know what this was saying to me.

Rob: Look, I have no idea
what the major threat was.

I get a sense of stuff that's happening.

We definitely hit season
five and things are changing.

The norm has changed.

So, we've got Tilly moving on to teaching.

Uh, there's few shows out there,
television movies that really

capture the reality of teaching.

Uh, Dangerous Minds with
Michelle Pfeiffer does not do it.

Uh, Boston Public does not do it.

Um, Abbott Elementary does
a pretty good job of it.

But to have Tilly as a teacher
going, I really love teaching!

I'm there going, oh, sweet summer child.

That is one element to a very, very
complex rainbow wheel of color shading.

Kevin: Tell me how realistic the
tipsy near miss in her quarters

was, that, uh, I wonder how often
that happens between tired teachers.

Rob: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that,
that, that hit home so hard.

The reality of that was true.

Um, yeah, we've got Saru is now in a
relationship and contemplating moving on.

Book has moved on, so there's definitely a
shift and a change within the, the norm of

Discovery, so we hit the ground running.

Um, but there are still things that
are, you know, situation normal.

We still have the captain of our starship
going on missions, deadly, dangerous

missions, right in the middle of it.

I'm going you've got crew to do that.

Stay on your ship.

Do your job as a captain.

Come on, Michael.

Kevin: I would buy that back when they
were in the kirk era, but they have gone

so far into the future that you would
expect one of the first things they told

Captain Burnham upon arrival in the 29th
century was, Look, you can't the missions

Rob: can't do it.

Kevin: do around here.

Rob: We have, people to do that for you.

Kevin: But it's not just her;
we've got this Captain Rayner

who's also pretty gung ho.

So it seems the norm.

Maybe it's come back
around like fashion, Rob.

Rob: Look, everything comes back.

Kevin: The Federation is so small now,
they, they, they have so few people.

They need the captains on the missions,
because who else is going to do it?

Rob: Exactly, yeah, it's, it's not them
that are wrong, it's me that's wrong.

That's very true, Kevin.

So yes, usual balance of domestic
drama and, issues of, you know,

where the characters are at.

All the characters in some way, shape
or form will always doubt their place in

the universe and where they are going.

That's a big thing in Discovery,
more so than any other show.

Kevin: Do I deserve this?

Am I in the right place?

Rob: Yeah.

What, what is my place in this universe?

It's a big especially with Burnham.

I mean, it's been a whole journey
from, you know, uh, traitor to captain.

And that was the whole point of it.

which we've talked about, you know,
you've said many times, the whole

point Of the show was, let's watch
someone grow into becoming a captain.

Um, so that means we go
through their trials and

tribulations, their ups and downs.

And I did feel like I was coming in
very much at the end of, everything

else seemed like I didn't miss much.

It's just like, oh, this
is where we are now.

But the Michael and Book thing, I very
much felt this sense of okay, they've

gone through some stuff because they
were, like, inseparable for, like,

Kevin: I mean the short version is
they were even more inseparable.

They were very much a couple in love and
then they had a very strong difference of

opinion when Book's planet got destroyed

Rob: That's right.

Kevin: Wanted to, um, Resolve
that through revenge if necessary,

but whatever means necessary.

And he stole a, he stole a bomb
from Starfleet and set it off,

uh, and, uh, it didn't even work.

So he took the risk and
now he's paying the price.

He's, he was sentenced to, uh,
community service, thankfully.

Rob: The impotence of toxic
masculinity on show even in the you

know, the 34th or whatever century.

But yeah, I was very intrigued because
they, um, they dropped the main threat for

this, uh, season, which relates directly
back to an obscure, uh, Next Gen episode.

Kevin: Och!

The Chase, season 6 episode
20 of The Next Generation.

One of my favourite episodes of TNG, just
because of big piece of world building

it does of going, okay, this thing that
has been admittedly conspicuous about

Star Trek all this time, we are going
to attempt to explain it by putting

a big, a big puzzle piece into place.

And it was a one off episode and
it was never used again until now.

So I'm glad that it's
back and that we're it.

Rob: And especially so far in the
future, so it's so separated from,

um, the canon that's been established
the 90s and recently to just go—

Because it, from what it looks
like, it's massive shape changing.

And normally that type of you know,
continuity changing stuff as well that

we normally have happen near the end of
an animated Star Trek series and then

it just turns out to be, you know, AI.

Kevin: Yeah.

So in the years um, early years
of Star Trek The Next Generation,

when Star Trek was just becoming
popular again, I remember that this

conversation of, Okay, but why are all
of the aliens still humans in makeup?

Can't we do better than that?

Uh, like, there was this sense
in the Next Gen era that maybe

we could be shooting for more.

We're not in the 1960s anymore,
the budgets are a little higher.

Do we lack the imagination?

And the fans at the time, as I remember
it, the fans at the time made up

this sort of lore of like this beta
canon lore of the Preservers or the,

actually the Preservers is a name that
was, uh, that Spock mentioned in a

original series episode called, uh,
the Paradise Syndrome, in season three.

This is the one where There's, uh, an
asteroid coming to destroy a planet

where there happens to be Native American
Indian tribes on it, inexplicably.

Rob: Sure!

Kevin: Captain Kirk loses his
memory and becomes one of the

Rob: Oh yeah, we've talked about that

Kevin: Spock and McCoy need to work
together in order to avert disaster.

Rob: Kirk gets married and has, like, his
wife's pregnant and then they both die?


Kevin: It's very sad.

But, um, at the end they manage
to reactivate this obelisk

that, uh, diverts the asteroid.

Spock says, The obelisk is
a marker, just as I thought.

It was left by a super race
known as the Preservers.

They passed through the galaxy rescuing
primitive cultures, which were in danger

of extinction and seeding them, so to
speak, where they could live and grow.

And McCoy says, I always wondered
why there were so many humanoids

scattered throughout the galaxy.

And spock said, so have I.

Apparently, the Preservers
account for a number of them.

Then when, uh, when The Chase came
out in Next Generation, Ronald D.

Moore, who, you know, famous
for his work on Deep Space

Nine and Battlestar Galactica,

Rob: And then went on to do For
All Mankind, which is amazing.

I'd love to talk to you about that.

Kevin: So he wrote or co wrote this,
this episode, The Chase, and he said, um,

he's considered but intentionally did not
specify that the ancient humanoids seen

in The Chase were in fact the Preservers.

But there's always been this, you know,
this, um, this flirtation with this idea

that there was this great super race that
is responsible for all these humanoids.

Is there one called the Preservers?

Are there two?

The Preservers, who did the
Indians, and the Progenitors now,

who did the original seeding.

Yeah, this was something that fans
were talking about even before

the show was talking about it.

And then, now the show is kind of
going, alright, we'll make it official.

Uh, and it's really fun
for that reason for me.

Rob: Yeah, and I think it's, um, Look, it
is a good way to, to be the to have that

as the arc for the entire final season of
Discovery, which in many ways, you know,

was the big bang restart, reboot of, uh,
modern Star Trek within the last 15 years.

It very, you know, it has to take
credit for that because everything

that has come since is because of
Discovery, you know, positive or

negative, no matter where you stand.

So to have its final season focus on
something about the actual entire origins

Kevin: I love it.

They have managed to find a big question
left unanswered in Star Trek and

they're spending a whole season on it.

I couldn't be happier about

Rob: It's going to be, yeah,
interesting to see whether it's

explored deeply or they try and

you know, the Indiana Jones
style chase to find these,

Kevin: right.

And at the end they go, actually,
we don't want the answers.

We, shouldn't know.

Rob: We shouldn't know, yes.

Why does, what, what does
God want with a starship?

Or what do the Progenitors
want with a human looking, Uh

Kevin: Well that's interesting to me
as well, like, all the times that Star

Trek has, has, I would say, uh, ill
advisedly gone, let's go in search of

God, or, the devil, or, you know, this,
uh, religious, um, explanation for the

Rob: Which was a very
Roddenberry thing, wasn't it?

Kevin: Yeah, it was so odd.

I guess, late in life, that
is what he was interested in.

And, and I thought it never worked to,
it never played to Star Trek's strengths.

But this stuff is kind of, I
think, exploring the same sort of

theme, but in a science, Science,
capital S science fiction way.

Like, what if all of the things
that we often attribute to religion

actually had a scientific explanation
and that mean to our sense of self

and our sense of, uh, the galaxy?

That, that is Star Trek for me.

Rob: Look, and it's, it's a double
edged sword, and it's a, it's

a thin line you have to walk.

It has been explored in many
different, I mean, everything old is

new again when it comes to sci fi.

But, you know, stuff like, uh, Doctor Who
explored that quite a bit, because back

in the 70s there was a lot of theories
about, like, the chariots of the god

type thing, where, you know, ancient
Earth civilization was actually Um,

inspired by aliens visiting thousands
of years ago and giving them knowledge.

That's like, whole part of it.

That was explored in a lot of, a couple
of Doctor who, stories back in the day.

Kevin: I mean, that's, ultimately
what Stargate's about as well,

Rob: Exactly.


And um, even with the dangers of
it, it's stuff like, um, Prometheus.

Where they take this B grade concept
from Aliens and Alien and try to,

um, When Ridley Scott comes back and
goes, I want to make my own version

of 2001, but with, you know, B
grade, you know, um, Alien monsters.

And so brings in, you know, all, you
know, all the space jockeys and turning

them into these creatures that go from
civilization to civilization, giving

them knowledge or taking it away, it can
either work or fail, depending on how

it's well thought out, so it's a thin
line that Discovery is working on, but I'm

Kevin: gonna, is, is there,
is there a there there?

Like, do they ultimately have
something to say with this platform,

I is what we're looking for.

Rob: And that's the thing, isn't it?

Yeah, they have to say something
other than what Michael Burnham

feels, and that's going to be very
interesting to see how they do that.

Kevin: The Chase had a the original
episode in Next Gen, The Chase had a

funny ending that, like, it was, um,
first of all, it was like a multi race,

uh, like, right now in Discovery, we've
got the the Starfleet racing against

these two, um, kind of renegades.

And we don't really know their story yet,

Rob: The two thieves.

Kevin: race.

In the chase, it was a Starfleet
versus the Klingons versus the

Cardassians versus the Romulans.

All four of these groups were, were
independently chasing down clues.

And they, they ultimately could
only find the solution by putting

their, their knowledge together.

Um, and then the Romulans walked
in at the last minute and said,

we've shadowing you all under cloak.

Ha ha ha.

Rob: Ha ha ha!

Kevin: And, uh, and standing in
the back row was this extra who now

is a whole character in Discovery.

Rob: I hope that actor gets some
sort of like, you know, recognition.


Kevin: They recast him for the older,
the older version of him in holographic

form, but it's a pretty good match.

And the funny is, you go back and
look on Memory Alpha, and the, the

role, which has been retitled Vellek,
because he wasn't even named in the

Rob: He was just Romulan
In the background.

Kevin: Yeah, so now it's named Vellek,
but it still says Unknown performer.

Rob: Ha

Kevin: know, at least as far
as fandom is concerned, we have

no idea who played that part.

Rob: In the original.

Kevin: And it's entirely possible
that the producers of Star Trek

don't know who played that part.

It may be lost to history

Rob: Well, yeah man.

Kevin: that they're using their likeness
and putting a box around him on a

view screen and going, I hope this guy
doesn't, you know, come around and sue us.

Rob: Or maybe that's why they,
because there were a couple of

others around there, why did they
specifically pick the one that they have

Kevin: One would hope they figured out
who he is and done a deal with him.

Rob: Well, they've done pretty
well with hunting down, like,

former, uh, character actors who

had bit parts and have even moved
on from acting to come back to do

voices of their character who was
killed in original Lower Deck one.

Kevin: It was a non speaking role,
so it literally would have been a

day player who put up in makeup.

And, uh, do they keep
track of those names?

I don't know.

Rob: Yeah, maybe, like you know, in old
school, hard copy, paper trail, have to

have a name of the ex, because that's
the thing, you get paid, you don't get

paid as much if you're not talking.

As soon as you say any line,
you have to get paid more.

So that would have been the
lowest of low, you know, schmo

working actor being on in makeup.

I mean, it's a hell of a job to get
paid a little bit of money, make to

look like an alien and stand around
on the set for a day in the 90s.

Kevin: Yeah.

And then, 30 years later

Rob: So what— Hopefully it wasn't
Crispin Glover, because we don't

want to go through that issues
again from Back to the Future 2.

Kevin: All right.

I've got a few like highlights.

Let's rapid fire through these.

So, um, first I noted, this is the
first episode of Discovery where

the Star Trek splash screen of the
ship flying around the nebula at the

and making the, the Delta happens.

That's how long it's been since
we've had a new episode of Discovery.

They, they've started doing that
since season four of Discovery.

Uh, so seeing the ship,
um, Spore jump in and then,

take off actually delightful.

Rob: And was, yeah, and it was
Discovery because I've mostly

been seeing it in Strange New
Worlds where it's the enterprise.

Kevin: yep.

And yeah, it's, uh, it's in
all the other ones as well.

Lower Dex does it in animated form
with, uh, the koala hidden in the

nebula, but yeah, they're doing it.

Uh, this, this episode opens with a
warp seen from the outside, so it's

kind of like a push in on space, and
there's a bit of twinkling, and then

we go into the twinkling, and we see
a ship in a warp bubble, and then go

into the warp bubble, and it's Burnham
standing on the back of the, the ship.

And uh, that, having just watched it
recently, that effect of warp seen

from the outside is almost exactly
what is established in Star Trek

Beyond, the last feature film of Star

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: We see, in the opening moments
of that film as well, we see the

Enterprise warping from the outside of
the warp bubble, and it looks exactly

like that, so I enjoyed the consistency.

Rob: Excellent.

I'm going to say I'm a huge, I'm a
huge fan of, for me, the highlight

was David Cronenberg back as, as our
mysterious architect in the background.

I mean, yeah, he's not an incredible
actor, but he just, the gravity

that he has as this old Canadian
filmmaker pushing boundaries of body

horror, um, is, is just, I mean, I
absolutely having a ball going, I'm

in Star Trek, I'm friggin lovin it.

Kevin: I like it every time.

They have centered him in this
year's plot, so we're gonna see

a lot of him, I suspect, which

Delightful, yes.

Rob: Very welcome.

Kevin: Red directive.

What do you think of this
concept of a red directive?

Because I, I both love and hate
that it is never fully explained.

They never stop and say a red
directive is dot, dot, dot, dot.

It's just a bunch of people going, this is
a red directive, so stop arguing with me.

And they all Oh, it's a red directive.


Rob: To use it in the title and be so
vague about it, kinda shat me up the wall.

But, this is the type of
thing that happens with me and

Discovery all the friggin time.

So, if you're gonna bring in
a new directive thing, say

what the friggin hell it is.

Come on, don't just, I know you
all seem important and seem,

you know, see the gravity of it.

We can't see the gravity of it,
because we don't know what it is.

Kevin: I have to say it feels
like, section 31 all over again to

It's this, it's this shadowy side
of like, okay, Starfleet is telling

people what to do and saying
you're not allowed to know why.

It's the it's the covert ops of Starfleet
and initially we are asked to accept that

it's for the greater good, but inevitably,
when they introduce something like this,

the only interesting place to take it is
absolute power corrupts absolutely, and

we end up at war with Section 31's fleet
of robot ships, and, um, I don't know

if I want to go down that road again.

So, I hope the red directive
is used sparingly and briefly

and never heard from again.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, in that case of bringing in
Section 31 always is at odds in some ways

with that, you know, shining vision of
the future, um, that, and it's always

finding that balance of do you need
a little bit of that darkness to keep

the light of Federation, but how much
manipulation does this underworld lead?

It's very much like a Dark Knight type
of situation where there's so much

machinations underneath that everything's
far too clever for its own good.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: So finding that balance
is going to be interesting.

Kevin: In the next episode, I think,
uh, Captain Rayner says, I've been

on seven red directives already.

And I'm just like, Whoa, okay.

That's too many red directives.

don't care what it is.

too many.

Rob: It takes away the importance of it.

You go, well, I've done seven.

Well, I've done 20.

All right, you know, let's,
stop comparing red directives.


Kevin: Yeah.

Uh, we meet our, our antagonists,
let's say In the uh, in the season,

uh, Moll and L'ak, and L'ak's head is
initially transparent when he takes off

his helmet on the ship, which is cool.

I, I don't know if there's going to
be a story there, but they seem to be

making a point of reminding us that
we don't know what species L'ak is.

Rob: Yeah, because he's a little bit
first season Discovery Klingon looking.

It'll be interesting to see if
they are the, because they don't

seem to be like the main threat.

They're just like, um, they, they
seem to be sort of like just, you

know, soldiers of fortune, but
not really helping anybody out.

Just moving place to place, doing
this thing, and they've just

seemed to have stumbled across this
major universal important thing.


There doesn't seem to be any
sort of like, overarching, um,

purpose for what they're doing.

And even if they did, it seems a little
bit out of character for these two, who

just seem to be, you know, scraping along
the best they can within this future.

Kevin: The whole sequence on the desert
planet looked very expensive to me.

I, I noted that they put this
episode on YouTube for free,

at least in the United States.

So, seems to have been this strategy
of this is, we're going to attempt to

attract some new audience with this
and spend a lot of money to do it.

Um, the fact that they were teasing these
speeder, desert speeder bikes a year ago,

speaks to that for me as well, that like,
this is a set piece episode in the season.

I'm expecting, we won't see
Discovery looking this expensive

until maybe the season finale.

Rob: Yeah, they've, yeah, pretty
much used up all their money now,

and spread it sparingly so they
can use it again for the final

Kevin: There were, there were like five
10 minute sequences where I was watching

going this is all amazing and beautiful
and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen a

flesh and blood actor in five minutes.

All CG.

Rob: Exactly, exactly.

Definitely bringing that cinematic feel
to the, uh, to the small screen, um, and

to really just make people go, Ooh, ah,
as opposed to what we like about Star

Trek, we go, Ooh, ah, when there's people
sitting around talking about policy.

Kevin: We had Fred the synth asking how
we can make an excellent deal today, Moll

L'ak, after on the sounds of their names.

Rob: Elements of Data, obviously,
but also a little bit of Vorta, just

Kevin: Yeah, he could
play a Vorta, couldn't he?

Rob: A little bit of a sinister
Vorta, had a, had an element of,

Kevin: He was a slimy android.

Rob: Not full Jeffrey Combs, and not
fully batshit crazy Iggy Pop, but um,

but definitely an element of Vorta there.

Kevin: I should ask, as a Deep Space
Nine fan, did you recognize that

ancient humanoid Progenitor in the
still shot from Next Generation?

Because the actress who plays it
is also, she came back to play the

Founder, the head of the Founders.

Rob: I was having a good look
when it came I went, oh that's an

interesting looking creature, I
haven't seen The Chase obviously.

Um, and then I went, ooh, is
that, she looks a little bit

Kevin: voice, it's definitely her, yeah.

Before she was the Founder, she was
the ancient humanoid from The Chase.

Rob: Who would have thought
Star Trek likes to bring actors

back to play different roles?

Kevin: The split screen, uh, moment
in, on the speeder bikes where they're,

they're bickering back and forth and
then the split, the screen splits,

and uh, made me sit back in my seat
and kind of go, I don't hate it.

I don't love it.

My partner, Jess, kind of
went, nah, they lost me.

That is too silly.

Uh, and to me, it, it just added to
this feeling that I think is the biggest

challenge for Discovery is that the
technology needs to be so advanced

that so much stuff feels magical, and
there's this, there's this feeling

that there are no rules and anything
could happen and so nothing matters.

And when the split screens came in,
I kind of went, this is almost, um,

uh, it's like a meta version of that,
is that this show has no format.

So when it breaks the format, you're
almost like, is it breaking the format?

Or is the fact that there is no
format, there is no consistent

style, is that what Discovery is?

Is it, it's a playground for
whatever idea they have that week.

Rob: Pretty much, and I think that's
what's been its challenge in really

connecting with um, Yeah, and that's
what's made it easy for people who aren't

real big Star Trek fans to connect to it,
um, because they don't have that lore, us

ingrained in it for so long, we're there
going, but you just, you're not following

any of the things been established, and
it's not charming, it's infuriating.

And like you said, yeah, it is a case
of, it feels like Harry Potter, that

just everything appears when they need it

Kevin: A beautiful analogy.

Yes, absolutely.

Everything works when you need it.

When Burnham falls through the hole in
the ship and is immediately enveloped

by an instant space suit that has a
jet pack that can take her over to

the cloaked ship that she can land on.

I was just like, I am enjoying this.

Like, it is entertaining and a little
funny, like, and it's played well.

When she gets hit by the space degree
and goes, Oh, that didn't feel good.

Like, I did laugh.

But Star Trek has always had rules, and I
don't know if I'm just a grumpy, old Star

Trek fan, or if there needs to be rules
for the, the rule breaking to matter.

Rob: Yeah, I mean, it has taken away
a little bit, I mean, with weekly sci

fi, we, you know, the redshirt problem
was always a major issue, because you

go, well, those guys are gonna die,
because we're not losing Spock or Kirk,

but it was that case of, because of
this technology, they're invincible,

so being hit by space debris and just
doing like a John McClane line from Die

Hard of, oh that's gonna hurt, um, and
also like the moment of the threat of

we're in warp, we've got this tractor
beam, Burnham's on the back of it, you

gotta get out of it, Oh I'm flying away.

And then she just flies into the
bridge of Discovery is warped in

and just walks straight ahead.

I'm going, you're trying to

Kevin: out breath, Rob.

She's out of breath.

Rob: Is she though?

I think she's out of one breath
she gets straight back into it.

And that for me, I just went, I'm
like throwing my plate up in the

air, I'm throwing my water at the
screen going, this is ridiculous.

You just want it to look cool and
you've taken away any threat, any

type of danger at all, because this
person is a god and can do no wrong.

Kevin: Then there's the avalanche and
uh, the ships nose down in the desert,

which, which, like everything else in
this episode, looked really cool, was

entertaining, I don't know, uh, In
research for this episode, I have watched

a lot of other starship crashes, and they
were much more violent than this one.

There's that brace, brace, brace, moment,
and the ship hits the ground, and everyone

kind of just shifts in their seat.

They didn't even shake the
camera particularly hard.

And I thought to myself, if this isn't
dangerous, if, if flying a starship

into the desert is not dangerous.

What is dangerous in
this world at this point?

Rob: it did end up on a jaunty 45
degree angle and move slightly up down.

It looked cool, but yeah, there's
so much, especially, I mean,

Kevin: At least fall out of your chair.

There were people standing who, you
know, they didn't, like they shifted,

but they didn't really stumble.

Rob: It's more of a, a movie thing,
because they've got, we've got

the money now, let's do a crash,
as opposed to back in the 60s

or even the 90s where they went.

Well, in the 60s they went, well, we can't
have the ship land every day, we don't

have the money, let's create beaming.

Um, and in the 90s they're going, we've
still got to save our money, so let's use

the same stock footage of ships flying.

Um, it's definitely a movie
thing, but in all crashes

previously, there's fatalities.

No matter what happens, whether
you're injured or some people are

hurt, but people die every time
the crash happens in, in Star Trek.

That's the threat.

You lose, sure, they're
unknowns in the background,

but you lose one or two people.

They break a leg or hurt themselves,
but one or two people die.

This one, they didn't even
get kicked out of their seat!

Kevin: Yeah.

But, I don't know, bombastic
opening to the season.

I like what they're doing with the plot.

That, that problem of nothing
matters has been true for more

than a season now, so it's not new.

Uh, but I, I sure wish they, they, I
sure wish they would have made more of

a starship crashing into the desert.

So, uh, we'll, we'll talk about that.

The one thing they did do with it, though,
is when the ship warped back or, or jumped

back to, uh, Starfleet Headquarters, there
was, uh, sand floating off of its hull

into space, and I loved the look of that.

At first I thought it was just kind
of like steam, and I thought it

was something new they were doing
with the spore jump effect, and I

thought that looked really cool.

I regret that there isn't, you know,
spores floating off the surface

of the ship every time it jumps
now, because it looked awesome.

But anyway, that is Red Directive.

Let's briefly talk about Under
the Twin Moons before we share our

other examples of starship crashes.

Rob: Yeah, this one was more of a, uh, a
two hander, so it was definitely focusing

on, Saru's final mission before he becomes
ambassador and goes off to get married,

as, uh, some cultures would call it.

And so like, you know, Saru and
Burnham again, oh, who would

have thought, but, um, Yeah.

Burnham and Saru going on this, uh,
vital mission to find out a bit more

about where the possible location
of this planet where the thing

is with the thing with the thing.

Kevin: I really enjoyed the two
hander with Saru and Burnham.

I mean the you gave me my second
chance, and what am I gonna do without

a first officer like you stuff?

It is laid on a bit thick, but it is
mostly earned from me having watched

the four seasons up until now.

And just the fun of the romp
through the forest, action Saru

and all that sort of stuff was fun.

I really enjoyed Burnham
wrestling with the decisions

she was making on the planet.

Like she wanted to sacrifice herself
to the drones rather than sending

Saru, but ultimately she made the
hard choice and seeing her grit her

teeth and go, Oh, I might regret this.

And then it turning out
to be the right decision.

Like all of that stuff, uh, along with
the science team on the ship, like,

working in real time with them unravel
the puzzle of the electromagnetic field.

All of that felt like A grade Star
Trek to me, and I really enjoyed it.

Rob: Action with science is always
a good balance with Star Trek.

We've got the people doing the actiony
stuff and they need the scientists

to work at double speed, triple
speed to sort out this problem.

So it's science and action
hand in hand always works well.

Kevin: We're losing our foot here.

Oh my god, who lost their foot?

No, no.

It's a it's

Rob: a turn

Kevin: He he he he he

Rob: It's always great seeing Doug
Jones flex his action muscles.

But yeah, it is that case of, there's
always that element for me of Star Trek

of, I love the, the regimented formal
nature of everything, and so when

emotions are conveyed, for me it hits more
powerfully because it's seeping through

Kevin: Right, it needs cracked, cracking
through the surface, uh, unintentionally.

Rob: You know,

Kevin: Oh, here's the part of the
day where I'm going to profess

my feelings to my co workers.

Rob: So yeah, so it's so much more
powerful at the end of Star Trek 2

when it's even like with the death
of spock and the the trauma of seeing

him die in, you know, radiation.

But that moment where his voice cracks on
human, that's where you lose your shit,

because you could see, you can see how
much this has affected Kirk, but he keeps

it in, whereas Burnham cries at the drop
of a hat, and it's I know that drama has

evolved, but they, were able to keep that
up, even with Next Gen, some of those

connections with, with, uh, you know, the,
the community that was created within The

Next Gen, uh, cast, and the emotions they
displayed in a, in in that capacity was

incredible, but Burnham is very much a
case of I'm so frustrated, I'm so angry.

What am I going to do without you?

It's, it's very laid on thick, and
it's very hard for me to connect with.

Kevin: I'll agree that it's, it's
still there in a way that I wish

that it wasn't, but I think they have
toned it down a step, at least in this

episode, in a way that I appreciate.

And, and that, that moment behind the
rock when, when you see Burnham send

her first officer potentially to his
death, and she is expressing emotion,

not to someone, but to herself.

Um, and it's, it, it is seeping
out of her professional demeanor,

like, that is the moment I've been
craving more of in, in Discovery.

Rob: Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a
masterclass as well from Doug Jones

and that's why he is the best at
what he does because he plays that

element of Spock, Data element of
not being as emotional as the human.

But because of that, that affords
him this beautiful range and nuance

to how he expresses his emotion.

Plus under layers and layers of makeup,
he is just a superstar of conveying

emotion through character work.

Kevin: but those those boots as well.

Man, am loving how much full body
Saru we're getting this well, because

he looks twice as alien when you
see his, feet and legs as well.

Rob: How can he run in those things?

I'm there going Bryce Dallas
Howard, how can you beat a T

Rex in heels in Jurassic World?

Um, her and Doug Jones should
get together and have a hundred

meter dash and see who, who wins.

Oh, my god.

Kevin: That's right.

Um, the Ready Room after show this
episode talks, uh, talks about

the running in the forest stuff.

And Doug Jones, um, gives credit
to his stunt guy who is shown

in a behind the scenes clip.

They, they put a conveyor belt on
the floor of the forest, uh, to

enable the person to run faster.

So it's a stunt guy in the tall
boots running on a conveyor belt

in the forest past the camera.

And, uh, it looks great, but wow.

It's quite a, quite a physical feat.

Rob: Yeah, those sequences I really liked.

I'm watching it there going, this is,
This is, this is, you know, I'm not

saying it with chagrin, I'm not saying it
you know, biting my lip going, alright,

I'm there going, no, this is good Star
Trek, this is, this is, you know, sure,

they just put their hand out and they,
and they, you know, um, uh, accio their

guns, going, Oh, for heaven's sake,
that's just, that's just fancy for no

reason, you have holster, I don't care if
you're three million years in the future.

You can have your gun in a holster.

It's all right.

Oh my gosh.

Stop showing off so much.

Kevin: Turn out the lights
when you leave the room.

Rob: I love the, I love the,
I was a bit, excited, but I

realized the money wasn't there.

The big statues, and like huge hand
coming out of the, foresty jungle

was really fascinating, and the head
creeping out of the earth was great.

And I was hoping, like, when they
looked at it and they went, oh

no, and the eye kind of opened,
I went, is that head gonna move?

I was really excited going, that
would be, oh, okay, no, there's

just creatures inside it that
just look probes and, you know.

But yeah, I had that element
of, yeah, yeah, come on.

I don't want to just see bikes one week.

I want to see huge, rock
like creatures come out.

Oh, okay, no.

We've just got the probes.

Kevin: We had the desert last week
when we had the forest this week.

Are we gonna have the ice planet
next week and the week after?

Rob: Follow the George Lucas,
uh, color plate of planets.

So, yep, have, have, uh, sand and green
and let's have either ice or lava.

Kevin: Well we're going to Trill,
so we know we we're having the

caverns with the blue liquid next.

Rob: We will have the caverns and the blue
liquid, love a good bit of Trill action.

But, um, Saru using his, his, uh, darts
to knock out all the probes was a little

bit cartoon 80s, uh, series for me.

Kevin: I, I appreciate the payoff,
like, they made a big deal of Saru

getting those darts two seasons ago,
hasn't really amounted to much, so I'm

glad they used it before they send off
the character onto his next mission.

Rob: Now, do we know that Doug is
out, or is he just, is he still in

it, just not on the ship every week?

Kevin: Um, it is, unclear.

Certainly his interview on the Ready
Room, was a farewell interview, but Wil

Wheaton was very careful to say, This is
your last week on the USS Discovery as

first officer, so I think it's gonna be
a Tilly situation, um, where they come

and go as their availability dictates.

Rob: Of course.

Kevin: Yeah.

This is a feeling I get from modern
Star Trek in general and it's the

difference from the 1980s and 90s
when we had 24 episode seasons and

actors were locked into contracts and
if you're making 24 episodes a year

you don't have time to do much else.

That is your full time job.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: Here in, in the 2020s, We're doing
ten episodes, it's being shot in two or

three months, and the rest of the year
is your time, and, and you are using your

platform on Star Trek as an actor to get
other gigs, and you're becoming more and

more famous, more and more expensive,
more and more difficult to schedule,

and, so, I am as a viewer, I can't
escape the feeling as these characters

sometimes are not present, sometimes
are mentioned off screen, um, that this

is, kind of a side gig for everyone.

I just don't feel the commitment
and dedication professionally that

we used to get from our Star Trek.

I don't know if I have a legitimate
grievance there as an audience member.

But, uh, but yeah.

I want Tig Notaro every single week.

She's either on the show or she's not.

Rob: Of course!

Kevin: And the fact that half the cast are
guest stars kind of bothers me in a way.

And this isn't just a Discovery thing.

It's, it's even happening
in Strange New Worlds.

Rob: Look, well it is, I mean, I
mean, for me Discovery has always

been, it hasn't been an ensemble,
it's been Michael Burnham.

It's been the Michael Burnham show, and
everyone else is a supporting character.

Um, but it is, you brought up a very,
uh, important issue, and it's definitely

come into light, uh, last year with, I'm
sorry to get a bit, uh, serious from the

outside world, but the writers' strike
and the actors' strike showed that, um,

the way that we consume our entertainment
has changed so much, uh, over the decades,

and especially at the moment, where
in a form of consuming entertainment

that we haven't fully understood or
set up regulations for, so it's kind

of been dictated by studios and these
faceless, um, rich, uh, Um, white guys

who are doing it for money and profit
as opposed to, uh, artistic endeavour.

So finding that balance has always been
tough ever since, you know, theatre

was created or acting was created.

But it has become a case of we're
not looking at actors who are making

big bucks, millions of dollars.

These are, these are jobbing actors.

Kevin: Yeah.

I certainly don't blame the
actors for taking other jobs and

pursuing their career and doing
what they need to pay the bills.

It is unfortunate, I guess, if
I'm complaining about anything,

it is the system that you describe

Rob: Mmm,

Kevin: prevents actors from making, uh,
the living they deserve when they are on

the biggest Star Trek show, uh, going.

Rob: Yeah.

I mean, you know, to get your equity card
you need to have worked so many jobs and

to, yeah, To earn enough money just to
have health care as an actor, you need to

earn a certain amount of money every year.

And most actors, the 95 percent of
actors who are working in America

at the moment, um, don't have enough
money for a sustainable, uh, career.

And that's horrifying.

Even someone like Doug Jones, who is an
established performer, uh, a trailblazer

when it comes to physical performance,
you know, practical performance.

Um, they've gotta, these aren't
superstars, these aren't Leonardo

DiCaprio's or stuff like that, these
are actors working from job to job.

And if their, if, if their schedules have
been dropped from 24 episodes a year to

just 10, they've got so much free time,
and they can't just stick around and

wait, they, like you said, they've gotta,
they've gotta earn their, their their

money, they've gotta, pay their rent.

They've got to be able to, you
know, if they get sick, they need

to be able to pay to get healed.

Kevin: In some ways, they're like, this
is the cost of things getting better.

Like, I mean, we had Anson Mount
somewhat absent from season two of

Strange New Worlds because his wife was
having a baby and he was a new father.

And, and you read back to the original
series, and the movies and Next Generation

era and people could not take time away to
be with their family when they were having

kids and marriages collapsed because.

The number of divorces created
by Star Trek is probably in

into the three figures by now.

And the fact that in today's, um, modern
way of making prestige television,

people can and do take time away,
I mean, I can't argue against that.

As a selfish audience member
it makes a difference.

There is a cost.

Rob: And it does and it does make it
harder to make, you know, when you

see characters 24 episodes a season
for seven seasons, whether they're,

you know, and that, whether they're
incredible episodes or dud episodes,

whether they're just in the background
or whether they're a crucial character

in it, they are there just from being for
there for so long in your face, you, they

become an in, in, you know, connected,
interwoven with your heart, but cutting

it down from 24 to 10 at the most.

Yeah, when those characters
leave And move, it's harder to

have that emotional connection.

Even like in season one of, um, Strange
New Worlds, where we had, uh, uh,

you know, a character loss, it was
heartbreaking, but you're there going,

well, this character was wonderful and
lovely, and I'm glad that, uh, he's

been coming back in other roles over
season two, but you're there going,

it's powerful, but it's not really
hitting hard, because they've only

been around for six, seven episodes.

Kevin: Discovery's gonna end, and it's
gonna have made 50 episodes of television

and that barely more than two seasons
of Star Trek The Next Generation.

Star Trek The Next Generation
was only just getting good by

the end of season two, so wonder,
it's no wonder these shows,

Rob: And that's the thing, like, the
big rule back, the big rule back in the

day was you had to hit 100 episodes for
syndication, was that Yeah, so that was,

episode, TV shows, especially genre shows,
always going, we gotta hit that 100.

Cause that's where residuals, that's
where, you know, the real money comes in.

Because that's the money that will
keep on coming through advertising,

through cable, through all that type
of stuff, where the show will just keep

on running and that's how actors like
Sarah Michelle Gellar, Um, can keep on

working but they get a large chunk of
their money from residuals and that's a

big issue with streaming at the moment.

There's no, there's no transparency
about how many people are watching, how

much money the streamers are making and
so therefore how much money is deserved

to the actors and producers and, oh
sorry, and the um, production crew.

Kevin: So back to Under the Twin Moons,
apart the jaunt on the planet, the other

big, like, there were two other elements
to this episode, there was Rayner's trial,

his retirement, and his appointment as
first officer of Discovery next week.

I'm looking forward to
that, how that's gonna go.

I think that will be an interesting
and entertaining change from Saru.

Rob: I like Rayner.

Look, he's a pain In the arse,
but that's what the show needs.

It needs someone who
doesn't just adore Burnham.


Kevin: Some some non
sentimentality, please.

Rob: Oh, oh, please?

Can we please?

There's a, there's a, there's
a show in the 80s called V.

I don't know if you ever watched V.

I loved

Kevin: I've never watched it, no.

Rob: Yeah, so it's about lizard aliens
who come to Earth disguised as humans

and try and, you know, uh, Say they're
bringing all this technology, but in the

end, they're just trying to harvest us all
and take them back, take us back for food.

It was very much an
analogy of World War II.

It came out in the early 80s.

Anyway, all the characters were very
clean cut, you know, all white, you

know, white hat brigade type of heroes.

And they did like tele movies, and
about halfway through the third, the

second tele movie, they introduced
a character called Ham Tyler, played

by the great Michael Ironside.

I don't know if Michael Ironside's
ever done a Star Trek, he's

definitely, you know, done his
fair share of uh, genre work.

Kevin: So he'd fit right
in is what you're saying.

Rob: Yeah, and he, but he came
in as like a ynerna character.

Ham Tyler came into V
and he was a mercenary.

He was, you know, He he did all the
underhanded nasty stuff that all the other

pure white hat characters wouldn't do.

And that was what the show needed.

It needed a character to come in who
gets down in the dirt, gets gritty, who,

you know, is a little bit of an anti
hero, which we use as a phrase nowadays.

But this is what I see in Rayner.

Rayner's that character who isn't involved
in the sycophantic, oh, I love you.

No, I love you.

No, I love you.

I love you.

He's there going, this is bullshit.

Um, I'm not gonna do what you say.


Kevin: Can we go, can we stop
talking about our feelings

and walk forward please?

He did that twice the first
episode and it was great.

Rob: Yeah, and like, like we didn't
even see him for these first sequences.

He's just a voice, a voice, in
a uh, with a tractor beam ship.

Um, and the, the trial scene was amazing.

I just love it, he's just
there going, this is crap.

I don't like any of this.

And swearing, I'm going, okay, I'm not
a big fan of swearing in Star Trek.

But I'm going,

Kevin: No, it could have
done without it, But still,

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like just there going, we all think
this at some point, you know, even during

the beautiful episode of, uh, Strange
New Worlds Season 2 with the trial.

We're just screaming at Rebecca Romijn
going, just say this is all crap.

Just stand up and walk out.

You don't deserve to be put on trial.

But he said it, he's
there going, you know,

Kevin: is politics.

Rob: It's all politics, and going, great,
love it, Yeah, and he, and, Yeah, he's

the perfect balance for, for Burnham.

Burnham doesn't need someone just telling
her how wonderful she is, need someone

Kevin: is too sentimental for
her own good, and Rayner is not

sentimental enough for his own good.

Rob: Yeah, he's, he, he's the
pragmatist, uh, she's the sentimentalist.


Sentimentalist, yeah.

Um, So I'm very interested
to see where that goes.

And, um, some interesting
stuff going on with Book.

They're trying to make it seem

Kevin: Moll is Book's mentor's daughter,
which I just wrote, small galaxy.

This is the small galaxy
problem we get in Star Trek.

Everyone is related to everyone.


Rob: With you saying that, saying it back
to me now, I make sense of it, but for

me, all I can hear when you say that is
your Rick Moranis in Spaceballs going,

I was your former brother's sister's
nephew's cousin's former roommate.

Kevin: Book took the name of his mentor.

There has been a long line of
couriers named Cleveland Booker,

and and there's always a Cleveland
Booker in the neighborhood.

So the Book that we know just took
on that mantle from his mentor.

But what we are, what we learned this
week is that Moll was the daughter

of the previous Cleveland Booker.

Rob: Yeah, they tried to put in
all this effort, to go, This is

the daughter of a guy I knew.

Kevin: I never

Rob: I went, Oooooh, this is important?


Kevin: I gotta say, it's one thing to
go, look, for plot, for plot reasons,

we, these two people have to have met,
even though it's a great big galaxy.

But at least from what we've seen this
week, it doesn't actually mean much.

So why bend over backwards
to make that happen?

Oh, well, I guess we'll see next week.

Rob: Look, and continuing on with the
magic, going, Okay, here's a photo of,

or an image of this particular character.

Okay, de age it.

You know, what, 12 years?

And the hair color changes?

I'm get the hell out of

Kevin: computer knows
that she did a bleach job.

Rob: It's, oh my god, it's just like,
yeah, it's like in um, Blade Runner,

where they have a really dodgy, grainy
photo, and all that Uh, Harrison Ford has

to do is say, enhance, enhance, oh okay,
and that clears up the photo as well?

Get the hell out of here, you're
using, you're using science

fiction as magic, yeah, it's

Kevin: more true every day
with these AI models, Rob.

Rob: Oh, yeah, yeah,
okay, alright, okay, okay.

Okay, okay, sorry, my, my AI is glitching,
I'm not really here, I'm still in bed.

Kevin: Oh,

Rob: is the AI avatar of me.

Kevin: Let's talk about
crashing starships.

Rob: Yes!

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.


Kevin: You go first.

You go first.

What comes to mind?

Rob: Okay, well, I won't
go with the obvious one.

Are we going timeline or are
we just going wibbly wobbly

Kevin: Just go wibbly wobbly.

We're finding our feet again.

Rob: Well, I kind of am
going from original series.

I'm jumping into the movies and I'm
jumping into the kelvin timeline.

I'm going into the film that dare not
speak its name because it's a piece of

arse, but I will talk about Into Darkness.

Kevin: Yesssss.

Rob: It's got the big, because it does
what all the Michael Bay movies did.

Are we gonna have a big crash
just out in the middle of nowhere?

No, it's more exciting
if it happens in a city!

Kevin: In a city!

I am glad you want to talk about
this one because, um, yeah, I have

such mixed feelings about this one.

I rewatched it.

It is an impressive piece of CG.

Rob: It looks amazing.

Kevin: looks amazing.

The chase through San
Francisco looks amazing.

I never think back to this
fondly because the movie has

already lost me by this point.

Rob: Oh God.

It completely.

In some ways?

Oh, Sorry.


I'm projecting.


Kevin: But on its own, this
is an incredible sequence.

The thing that I remember the most
about it is before I saw this movie,

I saw the posters for this movie,
and I saw trailers for this movie.

And the posters had the silhouette
of a Starfleet ship with a saucer

and two nacelles kind of nosing down.

I think one even had it plowing
through San Francisco Bay with, uh,

kicking up the water in front of it.

So it was again, a silhouette backlit.

Rob: That image was shared around a lot.

Kevin: Yeah, and certainly the final
trailer, it has a brief clip of

something moving through the skyscrapers
of San Francisco for half a second.

And then later in the trailer, it
has the iconic saucer plowing through

the water, kicking it up backlight.

And in In all of the marketing for
this movie, we are led to believe

that is the Enterprise crashing.

There are lines from
Scotty that says, The ship!

It's dead!

We're going down!

All of the clips in the, in the
marketing lead us to believe this

is gonna be an Enterprise crash.

And so we as audience all showed
up expecting, bracing ourselves

for the Enterprise crash sequence.

And this is a J.


Abrams bit of, uh, sleight of hand,
where, uh, he played a trick on us.

And in the same way that they did not
admit until the movie was out that

Benedict Cumberbatch was playing Khan,

Rob: No, he's John…

Kevin: John

Rob: Harriman.

John Harriman!

That's gee.

No, no, he's not Khan,
he's not Khan at all.

Sure it's on IMDB, but no, no, no.

He's this new character that
you've never heard of before,

but we're going to invest in.

Kevin: But yeah, this personally, and I
can't really explain it, but it bothered

me more than the Khan thing, was in
movie, Enterprise, you know, it loses

all power, it's plummeting towards the
earth, you're like, here it goes, here

we go, we're gonna have the crash,

Rob: Thing from the footage!

Kevin: And then at the last minute,
Kirk sacrifices himself, reconnects

the engine, and the ship like, lifts up
above the cloud layer and all is saved.

And then the big, bad ship, the,
the Vengeance, I think it's called,

swooshes past and under, uh, because
it's, it's had all of the torpedoes

exploded in it, it crashes, and Khan
deliberately directs it towards San

Francisco as his last act of revenge.

And I was, wow, this is all impressive,
but sitting in the cinema, I was sitting

there going, huh, they tricked us.

The Enterprise isn't going to crash.

I was, I was all ready to mourn
my friend, the Enterprise once

and nope, it's a bait and switch.

And now bring myself to care.

Rob: And then they just went, just
wait until the next movie, we'll

blow up the Enterprise again.

Kevin: I dare say this crash has the
most implied carnage associated with it.

Like, is the most deadly
crash we've seen in Star Trek.

And not a lot is made of it.

It's like, at the end, it's like, Wow,
we managed to bring Kirk back to life.

Weren't we lucky?

And no mention made of the doubtless
thousands of people killed in

the San Francisco incident.

Rob: You have knocked down so many towers.

Oh my god, yeah, there are so many
people, there are people in that!

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Yeah, it's like the Superman movie
with, um, Henry Cavill, Man of Steel.

Everyone got so angry because there's
so much carnage and so many people die.

Because the big thing about
Superman is he tries to save

people while fighting a big bad.

And he just doesn't do that in this one.

It's just the case of the same
thing going, wow, look at that.

Kirk's alive.

Isn't that amazing?

No, no collateral damage at all.


Kevin: Yeah, just to, uh,
correct myself for any listeners

screaming, it was John Harrison, in

Rob: Harrison, not

Kevin: Harriman must have been
some admiral that I'm thinking

of somewhere along the way.

Rob: Look, if anything, it would
have been more shocking if his big

reveal at the end of being trapped in
there, oh, when he said, I am Khan.

Nobody knew who Khan was in the movie.

He said, you know, I am John Harrison.

And they go, oh my god, not you?

That would have been made more
sense because it would have made

sense in the reality of that.

Anyway, it's such a dumb, it's
to quote Benoit Blanc in The

Glass Onion, It's just dumb.

It's just dumb.


Kevin: It is spectacular, and the
sequence on the Enterprise before it

doesn't crash is also spectacular,
like they lose artificial gravity and

is spinning in the air and, uh, people
are having to run along the walls and,

and jump over, uh, great chasms in
the ship that exist for some reason.

It's a of fun, uh, it's a lot of fun, but
this ship, this movie is quite mindless.

And, uh, in the end, I can't let
myself care about it because it is so

shocking what happens in san Francisco
at the end and is not dealt with or

reckoned with in any way that, uh,
I have to just kind of let the, this

movie blow over me and not matter.

Rob: Look, Chris Pine
survived, alright, so just some

perspective, could you, Kevin?

Okay, how about you?

What's your, um, what's your big crash?

Kevin: I'm gonna take us to
almost the opposite, in a way.

This is an episode of Star Trek Voyager
Season 5, Episode 6, called Timeless.

And the entire episode is about
trying to avoid a starship crash.

It opens on an icy planet and two people
in snowsuits who turn out to be, uh,

older harry Kim and older Chakotay, they

Rob: That's right, yes!

Kevin: are on the surface of a glacier
and the camera zooms out and you see the

Voyager is trapped underneath the ice.

Rob: I do remember that one.

Kevin: They, they developed a quantum
slipstream drive to try and get home.

It, it didn't fully work and the
ship crashed and Harry Kim blames

himself because he was in the Delta
Flyer with Chakotay at the front,

feeding them corrections, course
corrections, so that they could make

it safely through the slipstream.

He messed up and the entire crew perished.

And now he and Chakotay have come back
15 years later to find the Voyager

and to change history by, uh, getting
the doctor and his mobile emitter and

getting, uh, Seven of Nine's body,
which has the ability to, well, it has

the information they need to send a
message through time back to Seven of

Nine at the moment of the accident to
correct the coordinates that he sent.

And so the, the entire episode is flashing
back and forth between this future where

they are, are grimly making their last
ditch attempt as fugitives on the run

who have stolen, uh, time message sending
technology and the Delta Flyer in order

to save their, their family, um, by
changing history and flashing back to

the moments leading up to this crash.

And it's, they, they do some beautiful,
uh, interplay between these two threads.

There's a moment where Chakotay, um,
sits down on the ice filled bridge of

Voyager and replays the last captain's
log, uh, that's in the console.

And it's, it's Janeway saying, I
want to recommend all of my crew for,

for citations for Valor or whatever.

Rob: Except Harry Kim.

Except He's, he's not getting
a citation or a promotion.

Go play clarinet.

Kevin: Then we flash back and we
watch Janeway actually record that log

after we've heard it on the bridge.

Uh, so that, that delightful kind of
time travel shenanigans is going on here.

There's some weird, like, they The
Doctor cuts open, we don't see it.

Off screen, The Doctor slices up,
uh, Seven of Nine's body and then for

several long scenes, holding a chunk
of her skull in his hand as he's like

scanning it for the information they
need and it's really kind of grisly.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: And there is one cut that
is almost a match cut between the

chunk of her skull and we cut to
Seven of Nine in the past speaking,

and it is so like, oh, disturbing.

Um, great episode.

We do, ultimately, at the risk of spoiling
the episode, their plan doesn't go

right the first time, and so we get to
see the crash, and in the 1990s budget

restrictions that they had, they did
a marvelous job of the, the ship kind

of, you know, brushing against the top
of an icy mountain before, like, going

down and hitting, in a way that feels
real hard, that ice, and it's kicking

up snow everywhere, and it's skidding
along the surface, and then we cut away.

We don't see the aftermath.

We don't see people thrown out of
their chairs or anything like that.

All we then see is the icy remains
on the bridge 15 years later, but

Rob: Cause this is all, all CGI, um,

Kevin: All CGI on a TV budget,
but boy does It look good.

It holds up even though they, like,
this is one of the episodes I would

love to see a, an HD remake of
someday, but even in the 4x3 standard

definition quality that we're stuck
with for Voyager, it still looks great.

Rob: Yeah, I do remember that episode.

I do like, you know, those what
if stories of Star Trek where they

can delve into being a little bit
darker and the, the, horrors of what

is potential and then there's the
reset, reset at the end to go back.

Whew, well, that's what it could have
been but that's not what our world is now.

We'll wait for Discovery where it's that.

Um, but yeah, it's that and you
know, trying to make uh, Harry

Kim a bit more interesting.

I think he had facial hair
at in this episode as well.

Kevin: Yeah, this is one of
the meatier episodes for, uh,

Garrett Wang to play with.

He gets to play old, um, kind of damaged
Harry Kim who blames himself and has been

through a lot of therapy that didn't work.

Rob: Uh, clearly.

Kevin: It's a good one.

It's standalone.

If you're listening to this, listener, And
you're like, Oh, I watched some Voyager,

or I've never watched some Voyager.

You could watch this one all by itself.

There no connections to, uh, to
canon and, uh, it's a good one.

Rob: And I love the threat of it.

It's like crashing a starship onto
a planet, no matter what planet

it is, is gonna cause some damage.

It's not just as easy as putting on
shields and, you know, being on a 45

jaunty angle and getting dirt on you.

That's the big thing that focuses
in the Discovery episode, isn't it?

They go, oh, we've got
to get out all this sand.

Oh, we've got sand.

So much sand is in the ship.


Kevin: Yeah.

In Voyager, they make a point of saying
decks decks 10 through 14 are now deck 10.

Uh, they, they were compacted on, uh.

Rob: Ha ha ha.

So yes, from what I remember, I love
it when they go dark in these type

of stories so that they can really
explore how these characters cope with

unimaginable horror in these situations.

Because space is, yes, it's liberating
and it's freedom and it's exploration

and it's positive and hope, but also
it's dangerous, it's deadly, it's

horrifying, and can cause some real
horrific Yeah, talk about Dave Cronenberg,

that's some body horror right there.

Kevin: Should we talk about the big one?

Rob: Let's do it!

Let's do it, Star Trek Generations.

This is an epic crash and this is very
much a case of this is the first Next

Generation movie with all our stuff.

Let's do a big crash and
it's a balance of CGI and so

Kevin: It's a real model.


Rob: thing they pushed in the making of.

I remember they released back in the
day, like teaser VHS's where you'd get

a making of, of Star Trek Generations
VHS that would come with a newspaper or

you'd get it from the, news agency and
you could watch, okay there's this big

sequence and they'd show the, Teaser of

Kevin: made this model for us.

We hand painted every tree.


Rob: Yeah, every tree and every color
scheme of shading on the, on the

saucer, uh, part of, uh, the Enterprise,
and it was huge, it's not like a,

a mini model, it's like a massive
saucer that they flew into this, um,

uh, designed, uh, uh, wilderness.

Kevin: The overriding impression
that this one leaves me with is that

it's, it's bigger than you expect.

Like so many of the, other crashes,
you're like, Oh, this might be big.

And then the show kind of just
rises to your expectations.

This one rises to your
expectations and then keeps going.

How long it lasts.

Once they're on the ground it just
becomes this rolling earthquake and we

from scene to scene, from room to room
as people are like holding each other

and the whole thing is shaking and
that feeling of I am in an earthquake

and at some point this is going to
stop and that's going to be bad too.

That dread of the ending of it um,
when you're in the middle of it

is something that none of these
other ones ever quite achieve.

Rob: No.

It definitely splits it into two.

There's the, and both are
equally deadly and horrifying.

It is not only the crash into the planet,
but then when you're in the planet, The

momentum that's built up and how you stop.

So it's two parts of Oh my god we're
gonna crash, we're gonna crash into this

planet and then it's the case of we're
on the planet now and we have got this

carnage going along and there's yeah like
you said they extend it out they go this

happens and this happens and this happens
while they're just coming to a halt.

And it goes on for so long.

It's a perfect capture of what a crash
landing of a Federation ship, only half.

It's only even half of the ship crash.

Kevin: Yeah, the stardrive section goes
up in a big ball of light before this.

Rob: Definitely.

Kevin: Uh, it's one of my favorite
Deanna Troi beats when she's at the

conn, and a lot has been snickeringly
made in, in, in cynical fan circles

about, you know, the one time they put
Deanna at the conn, she crashes the ship.

Rob: Ha, ha, ha, ha.

Kevin: But I, I just love that moment
once they're on the ground and she's

still at her station, and I think
it's Data, but someone is like hugging

her and she's crying, in her, at
her station while she's still trying

to do her best to save this ship.

It is so touching.

In this moment of high, high spectacle.

The thing that sticks with
me is an emotional beat

Rob: Yeah.

And it's really, it's the sacri I
mean, it's what they do in the movies.

There's a, there's gag that goes
around in the community going,

Oh, it's a Star Trek movie, better
blow up the Enterprise, again.

Um, but this was a

Kevin: There have been a few.

Rob: Yes, there's been a statement
of It's, it's the, the Enterprise

is like the kenny of, um, South

Kevin: It is, it's the character that
you can rebuild after you kill them off.

And it's the, it's the cheapest way to
give the audience that sense of loss.

Rob: Exactly.

Um, but it is that case of, it was the
big moment of going, we're moving to

the movies right now, and so what you've
known of Star Trek Next Generation

has changed, and so a big step is,
you've known this ship, this bridge for

seven years, and we are destroying it.

There's that final moment with Riker and,
um, and, and Picard on the ship to say

goodbye, on the deck to say goodbye to it,
and then we come, and then in many ways, I

mean, um, for me, I don't know if you feel
the same way, the Enterprises after that

in First Contact and, uh, Nemesis and,
uh, Insurrection were never as iconic.

They were, they were
more Batmobile, you know?

The, like, slicker and sexier, but

Kevin: like the E.

I think the E is as good as they
could have possibly made it.

It is a worthy successor, but
it's never quite the same.


Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is
that monumental moment of loss.

We, you know, you do lose something,
you do lose people, and, you know,

feel the importance of a crash.

Because if, if it just nobody's lost
and all you need to do is clean off

sand, it takes away any type of drama,
any importance, any, uh, stakes.

Mmm, stakes.

So yeah.

Kevin: Well, there you go.

Those are, those are our
highlights of crashes past.

There have been others.

Um, like you said, we had Into Darkness
and Star Trek Beyond made a big, you

know, show of dismantling the Enterprise
and having a saucer crash of its own.

But, uh, we'll leave that as
an exercise for the listener

to go and revisit that one.

Rob: And I always bring up Star Trek IV,
so the, you know, the, um, the Klingon

ship crashing into, uh, San Francisco Bay.

Kevin: Mm, absolutely.

All right.

Well, it's good to be back, Rob.

I look forward to, uh, our
next outing on Discovery.

I high hopes for this season, like,
in a way that Discovery has my

expectations low, and this is so
far quite good for Discovery, so I

think I'm gonna enjoy this season.

Rob: Yeah, look, I'm, I'm not as invested
in this show or this crew as, as, as you.

Um, there are moments that I'm liking.

I'm liking Cronenberg, I've always
loved Doug Jones, um, uh, there's

some, there's, there's stuff in there
that I will be intrigued, but I'm very

interested to talk to you about it,
because we've never done, like, everything

we've reviewed so far, I've loved!

Kevin: I know.

Just in the same way that um, this is the
first Discovery, that used that stinger,

that animated opening at the start.

I, I had to check myself and realize
of 50 episodes of this show that

we did, all of them came after
the last episode of Discovery.

So this is our first time actually
talking about Discovery here.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we, we
started halfway through the first

Kevin: New Worlds.


Rob: Strange New Worlds, so it's, it's,
and, and I've loved Strange New Worlds,

um, you, you got me onto Lower Decks,
and I'm friggin loving Lower Decks,

and, and Prodigy as well was a surprise
one that I'm particularly loving.

I know there's a lot of anger out there
with where Star Trek's going, but, I've

found nothing but joy and positivity of
it that connects to the ethos of what we

love about Star Trek at the height of the
60s and the height of the 90s, which a

lot of people see as, you know, gospel,
and you can't, uh, obtain that again.

But, um, it's interesting to come to
a Star Trek that I am not a fan of but

to talk about it week to week, I'm very
interested to see where it goes and,

and what conversations I can have with
you, and hopefully the people listening

enjoy it as much as I am doing it.

Here with you.

Kevin: Well, until next week, Rob.

Rob: See you around the galaxy!

Episode 51: Starships bumping into planets (DIS 5×01 Red Directive, DIS 5×02 Under the Twin Moons)
Broadcast by