Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kev.

Rob: And me Rob.

Kevin: and we are here
for a very special event.

Rob, it is the first ever
musical episode of Star Trek.

Rob: Yes, Kevin, we have reached an
episode we've been waiting for some time.

Kevin: And I cannot wait to break it down
and see what else we want to talk about.

Rob: Dear listeners, we will not
be singing the entire episode.

Kevin: Oh, sadly.

Sadly.

Rob: Sadly.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Drop that little nugget, that
little hint of our musical talent.

Possibly we may do a musical episode
of Subspace Radio down the track.

Kevin: We almost should though,
Rob, just because this episode

title is so much like our own title.

It's Subspace Radio
talks Subspace Rhapsody.

Rob: Look, it's almost
eating in on itself.

Like a, a ouroboros.

Yes, the episode that everyone's been
talking about is finally here and,

oh you knew it was gonna cause some
dissension in the ranks and it has

exploded just as they knew it would.

Kevin: Oh no, Rob, where do
you hang out that all of these

angry Star Trek fans hang out?

Rob: Online, Kevin.

And I should, I know I
should stop doing it,

Kevin: That was your first mistake.

Rob: Yeah.

Rookie mistake.

So it's always good for me to get an
idea of, yeah, just a sense of it.

There's been a lot of positives
and there's been some negatives.

Some people have been like going for deep
canon cuts and whether they were breaking

canon or not, which they clearly didn't,
and I thought they were tantalizing little

treats which I was really excited to hear.

But yeah, and just general opinions on
the whole concept of a musical episode.

We talk about it with Strange New Worlds
so much about, it's like ticking off the

checklist of the go-to genre episodes.

So we've had the body swap.

We've had the amnesia episode.

We've had the crossover episode.

And it's only a new phenomenon, like
since the early noughties really.

But the musical episode has
become the new go-to gimmick.

So it was used in Buffy, it was used
in the Flash, it was used in Riverdale.

It's been used in

Kevin: The magicians.

Rob: Yes.

Multiple genre shows have
done a musical episode.

So this is just adding to that list.

Kevin: The Buffy musical was
explicitly referenced in this

episode for anyone paying attention.

The joke about turning into
bunnies was, could be nothing other

than a winking acknowledgement.

Rob: To Anya's lovely song, bunnies,
bunnies, it must be bunnies.

Kevin: Yeah.

I went into this with
very high expectations.

Rob, I think I talked a couple weeks
ago about how, for the crossover

episode I was going in wincing and
going, Ooh, this could really suck.

I hope they don't screw it up.

But I was on my guard for that.

For this, I was going in
openhearted and give it to me

because the track record is there.

Henry Alonso Myers, who's one of
the showrunners for Strange New

Worlds was a showrunner for The
Magicians, a show that I watched in

its entirety and had several musical
episodes and they were all excellent.

The cast did great work with that
strange way of presenting a story.

The songs, importantly, were bangers.

They were so much fun and stuck in your
head and ultimately it must have worked

because they did it more than once.

For those who aren't familiar
with the show, it was a story

about teen angst in magic land.

It was kind of Harry Potter, if
Harry Potter was in university

and making all his mistakes while
learning magic at the same time.

So the, the angst, the teen angst would
be cranked up to 11 and then released

in a musical episode where everyone
sang their hearts to each other.

So having seen those successes from
at least the show runner, I thought he

knows how to do a musical genre show.

And I can't wait to see that
through a Star Trek lens.

But I'll say maybe my expectations were
a little too high because I, I found

this episode somewhat disappointing.

How about you, Rob?

Rob: Yeah, look I, I got on the
bandwagon with Once More With

Feeling back in the early noughties.

It was my first ever musical episode.

It's like I'm one of the
only few I'm aware of.

It is right smack bang in the
early section of season six, which

is notoriously the worst season
of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

But the musical episode is always heralded
as the last great episode of Buffy.

Like you said about The
Magicians, all the songs in once

more with feeling are bangers.

It's a difficult one because only
two of the cast in Buffy are singers.

Tara, the actress who played Tara's a
wonderful singer and Anthony Stewart

Head was a professional singer.

And and all the songs are
great, all different styles

of tunes and stuff like that.

That, and plus it was my first one, so
my nostalgia of it is really strong.

I went back and listened to a couple
of the songs recently coming up

to the musical episode of that,
and it still holds up really good.

I love the change of tone.

So my expectations of a musical
episode are pretty high.

The last one I saw was for The Flash
which was actually directed by the guy

who directed this episode, Dermott Downs.

And The Flash one kind of
disappointed me and it became

a bit, oh, it's a bit generic.

The songs, and they
had some great singers.

Grant Gustin is an amazing singer.

He did Glee, as did Supergirl uh,
Melissa Benoist she was in Glee as well.

Wonderful singers, but the songs
didn't really stand out and I got

this sense of, oh all musical episodes
just blend into one another now.

They've lost that um,
uniqueness and novelty, and

now it's just become a gimmick.

So I was a little bit
trepidatious with this one.

I was really excited for the
crossover episode, but this one

I was the songs have to be good.

The songs have to be really good
for this to be something special.

And yeah, I was, I love it 'cause it's
Strange New Worlds and I love the cast

and I love all of it, but it, some
of it soared, but most of it, their

choices, the choices they made of how
they do the songs was disappointing.

Having so many songs where they
reference the fact that they

are singing really got old.

Kevin: It was very self-conscious.

Rob: Very self-conscious.

And also the fact that they incorporate
just regular techno babble dialogue

into the songs ate away at me as well.

I don't want to hear them

Kevin: Yeah, I couldn't tell
if I liked it or disliked it.

I think when it worked like there were
moments where they were using Star Trek

turns of phrase or language where I was
like, oh, yeah, what else did I expect?

Star Trek has such a distinctive language.

We're gonna get to see
that brought into song.

But there were times where it
was, it felt like a gimmick.

And it was there not to keep the
songs connected to Star Trek.

It was there to make the
songs Star Trekky, if I can

draw that subtle distinction.

It, it bordered on parody.

And my partner turned to me at one
point and said, in the middle of

a song, she turned to me and said,
Ooh, this feels like a parody.

And I was cringing internally
in the same way at that moment.

And you don't want that feeling in
the middle of a musical episode.

Rob: Yeah, there were moments when
they started breaking into a song and

instead of me going, oh, good, now is
the time, a part of me went, oh no.

So there I was quite relieved
that the highlight scene for me

in episode was La'an finally,

Kevin: Oh yes,

Rob: talking to Kirk.

And that

Kevin: with not a song in sight.

Rob: a song in sight.

And that was that they're
going, that's not a good sign.

When the

Kevin: Yeah.

Your best scene is not a song.

Yeah.

Rob: I mean there are some really
solid singers in that group.

I mean, Celia as Uhura
is an incredible singer.

Christina Chong, of course, has released
albums and she's a wonderful singer.

Ethan Peck is the dark horse.

He has a wonderful, soothing
voice and Anson Mount's got

a quite a nice voice as well.

Kevin: Pretty much the only song with
a male lead singer in this episode was

Spock's song, and while it was great,
it was also a reprise of Chapel's song.

Rob: Yeah, it's very odd hearing,
uh, Spock saying, I'm the ex.

The ex for me is a very is, is is a
very juvenile teenager type thing.

And

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: to hear Spock say that
I'm going um, interesting.

Yeah, Jess Bush, I love that song.

That was a really good song and a
really good, self-empowerment number.

She's not the strongest of singers,
but I like how well she did.

Kevin: Yeah, the melody has
definitely stuck with me.

I personally think the strongest
song in the episode is La'an's

song, which she sings by herself.

It is gorgeous.

That, I said, okay, now
we're getting somewhere.

uh, The Gilbert and Sullivan number in
the hallway with Una, I did not need that.

The status report song I
thought was quite awkward.

But La'an's song was the one where this
episode took flight, and I thought, okay,

if this is the trend and we're now on a
path to orbit here, okay, I'm on board.

This is gonna be great.

But I felt like it peaked at that point
and never quite reached that level again.

Rob: Yeah.

And plus it has the um, bonus
points of having the word

paradigm in its main chorus.

So getting the word paradigm in
a chorus is a big plus for me.

Kevin: Well that that was another
example of Star Trek language

kind of used in song, but I
thought that one kind of worked.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah, for me using the whole, yeah.

And saying the phrase that everyone
talks about when the musical, when your

emotions build up so much, you can't
say it, you have to sing it, to hear

Rebecca Romijn say that was quite cute.

But yeah.

Dealing with relationship type stuff
that we thought we've evolved from,

and there seemed to be with Pike
and Batel, a bit of a step back.

Kevin: And Chapel and Spock,
seeing them torn apart in song

was not very satisfying, I felt.

When that message from Roger
Korby came in at the start of

the episode, I was like, Oh no.

I could use another season of them
dating before we go here, please.

But uh, no.

And her choice not to even say anything
to him until, forced to by the song virus,

it just, it felt kind of outta character.

Rob: I'm kind of relieved that
it has become the case of Chapel

and Spock, we hardly knew ye.

'cause if it was a little bit longer,
it would stretch the boundaries of… For

me, to have it end so quickly and so
abruptly, for me, that kind of works.

Kevin: Yeah.

This is why they never
talk about it again.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: And how it still
feels unrequited for her.

Rob: Very much so, and that, has to linger
when we go into you know, original series.

So there's a lot of easter
eggs in there as well.

So we talked about Korby being referenced.

And we mentioned earlier, the big scene is
where finally La'an talks to Kirk, and I

think Kirk handled that scene incredibly,
was written well and performed well.

And we have a drop of…

Kevin: Freaking Carol Marcus!

Rob: gets the drop!

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: bring in Carol.

I wanna see

Kevin: Bring her in.

Yeah.

Rob: There's been a lot of controversy
about, uh, and people just not

watching Wrath of Khan to fully
understand it, people going Kirk

didn't know about David and going,
did you actually watch the film?

The first thing he says is
when he goes, is that David.

'cause the one line going,
why didn't you tell me?

'cause No, he was talking
about, why didn't you tell me

that David was on the station.

Yeah, so that is brought up.

Girlfriend, pregnant, that this
is the point where it happens.

Kevin: Yeah.

Okay.

Well, So yeah, that is the thing that,
that you were referencing, that people

are a little uh, perturbed by the
canon impact of Carol Marcus and the

Marcuses being introduced at this point.

The thing I was, thinking you might be
referencing is just like Jim Kirk paying

another visit to not just the Enterprise,
but standing on the bridge and saying, I

learned everything I know from you people,
that is, that is stretching it a bit.

Rob: Sitting in a briefing with Pike.

I'm there going, are they gonna
lose their memory after this?

Is it, it's gonna be?

Nope?

Okay.

All right.

They've met more than once and
Kirk just forgets the musical.

Kevin: Yeah.

Because I believe the line is Kirk
is asked whether he ever met Pike,

and this is in The Menagerie.

And Kirk says, we met once when
he was promoted to fleet captain.

And so they did that deft thing, the
other episode when the Farragut happened

to be around at the deuterium refinery
and Pike was made fleet captain.

And so we were like, okay that's
the time they met when he was

promoted to fleet captain.

Uh, the fact that it was a
temporary promotion is the nice

little magic trick they did there.

Surely they can never meet again, but no.

Rob: Not only do they meet again, they
share a bridge, they share a chorus

line of awkwardly linking arms and
trying to do some sort of choreography

in a very slippery, confined set.

Kevin: I guess my feeling about it,
Rob, is I am definitely up for the

story of early Kirk and his relationship
with Carol Marcus, all of that I'm

interested in seeing it, but I don't
want it to be at the expense of seeing

the stories of Strange New Worlds
and the characters of that show.

Especially when we only have 10 episodes
to play with each season, the more Jim

Kirk we get, the less of this show we get.

And this show deserves every
minute of screen time it can get.

Rob: Exactly.

Yep.

That's the rub.

I could not agree with you more.

It's, we were sold on the fact
this is Strange New Worlds, this

is Pike's crew leading up to that.

So we don't want to, shortchange that.

And especially like I've mentioned before,
this is a crew that has a running clock.

We know that they're not all gonna stay.

We don't know where they're gonna go,
and we don't know what's gonna happen.

We only know certain things.

We know where Spock is, we know where Pike

Kevin: If anything happens to La'an
at this point, I am gonna riot.

She's my favorite character on
Strange New Worlds at this point.

Rob: Incredible actress,
incredible character.

I love how they've developed
her out of the shadows of

her heritage and her lineage.

Kevin: Going back to her scene with
Kirk, the thing that I loved about

it, not just how Kirk handled it,
but I loved how she handled it, that

it was not a, confession of love.

It was, I met an alternate version of you
and felt seen, and I like that distinction

that it takes it from school girl romance
to look, when I'm around you, I feel

like a different person for this reason.

Rob: Yeah, and beautiful stuff like
they're going be careful what you say

because of timeline stuff and him saying,
I know that I feel the connection with

you, but I don't know where it comes from.

That type of really pleasant stuff.

So yeah, for me that was a highlight.

Kevin: Just for the record, I don't
need to hear Jim Kirk say, I don't

like rules, but… I don't need to hear
them hang a lantern on that anymore.

We all know Kirk is a rule breaker.

You can stop saying it.

Rob: Um, and another bone of contention
we got the Klingon singing and it

was K-pop style as opposed to opera.

Your thoughts, Kevin Yank?

Kevin: It was fine.

By that point, by that point I had
so given up on the story of this.

Like, for this to be a successful episode
for me, it both needed to be a great

Star Trek story and a great musical.

And that those two things would be
more than the sum of their parts.

But to me it was by far the weakest
story we've gotten in two seasons of

Strange New Worlds, and it was not
a particularly great musical either.

And as a result, it was less
than the sum of its parts for me.

So by the time the Klingons were
K popping, I just went cool.

They didn't do the obvious thing.

That's fine.

But I'm ready for this episode to be over.

Rob: Yeah.

I'm, like I said, I'm trepidatious
of musical type episodes and

it, I didn't want it to be
disposable, forgettable fluff.

And it was.

It was fun and cute and I'm not
gonna, rail against it and be angry,

but I'm just there going, yeah.

It's not gonna be it's a forgettable one

Kevin: Much worse than Klingons singing
K-Pop, which actually, like if everything

else about this episode was firing at
nine outta 10 or better, that could have

been this ridiculous thing that pushed it
over the top into instant classic to me.

I would go there with a good episode.

That was not this episode's biggest sin.

For me the biggest one is setting
up the plot need of someone to

sing a song, to rally the crew, to
bring them together under a leader.

And then Pike saying, Uhura,
you can sing this one.

That that wasn't Pike's
song makes no sense to me.

I've heard rumors completely
unsubstantiated through fan circles, that

Anson Mount simply did not want to sing,
and uh, they had to write around that.

And if that's the case, maybe
don't do a musical episode.

If you can't get your captain to sing,
maybe don't do a musical episode.

Rob: And if you want to do an episode
that highlights the musical talent

of your cast, do like what was done
in Deep Space Nine, when you've got

the fabulous work of Benjamin Sisko
singing with a hologram some funky

jazz musical numbers from the fifties.

You can have, you can make
it a part of the show.

You don't need to structure a
whole episode of it and compromise

Kevin: Or going back to the Battle
of AR-558 last week, we had rom at

the start of that episode singing
That's Why the Lady is a Scamp.

Instant classic, right?

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

There's gotta be karaoke in,
you know, in the 23rd century.

Come on.

Kevin: But the thing that we wanted to
cover based on this week's attempt at a

classic musical uh, was other times that
Star Trek has jumped with both feet into

the land of camp, and gone, you know what?

We get accused of being campy
now and then, let's show you

what it's like when we get campy.

Why don't you go first and
tell us what you got because

mine's fairly late timeline.

Rob: Mine's Voyager.

Is yours Voyager?

Kevin: Oh, mine is also Voyager.

Rob: Mine is Voyager, season five,
episode 12, Bride of Chaotica!

Kevin: We've done it again, Rob.

We've done it again.

Yes.

Bride of Chaotica!

Watched it today, knew what I was
in for, and it did not disappoint.

Rob: Yeah, I was, I, from my memories
of it, I thought it was a lot more fun.

And it was about 40%
fun, 60% justification.

And I'm there going, oh, cut out
the justification, all right?

Do a Our Man Bashir type thing and
just go full Flash Gordon style.

Kevin: I think if they ever try
this again in Strange New Worlds or

elsewhere, that's also what I want, is
don't have the characters aware that

singing is strange and spend half the
episode trying to figure out how to stop

singing because they hate it so much.

Let's just, imagine Star Trek was always
a musical, and tell us a story that way.

Rob: So tell us about Bride of Chaotica!

Kevin: Yeah, so this is mid Voyager.

We do have Seven of Nine on board,
but she is still pretty grumpy.

Uh, she and uh,

Rob: And surprisingly in
the background for this one.

Kevin: Yes, indeed.

And we have a long established Paris
Kim man date where they go into the

holodeck and play out these old B-movie
plots under the name Captain Proton.

Tom Paris plays Captain Proton, and
Harry Kim plays Captain Proton's

sidekick, who has a name; I can't
remember what it is right now.

I don't think we're meant
to remember what it is.

And the scenes in the holodeck
are all in black and white.

This was a fun conceit that Voyager
invented, that if you go and play a

black and white holodeck story, you
are turned black and white yourself.

And that's

Rob: very cool.

Yeah.

Kevin: I think we had seen snippets
of Captain Proton in other stories up

until this point, but this was the one
where they were like, we're gonna make

this the setting for the entire episode.

And so Tom and Harry are on
their mandate in the holodeck

playing through their story.

Harry is the one playing it for the
first time; Tom's played this scenario 10

times and he knows exactly how it goes.

Rob: As always, Tom Paris is the
expert of ancient Earth culture.

So he knows how to put a car together.

He knows how to put a, a plane together.

He knows how, how old 1950s serialized
space adventure sci-fi works, apparently.

Kevin: Yeah.

And suddenly they see a purple
portal in this otherwise

black and white environment.

A kind of creepy purple
portal appears in the sky.

And that's the cold open.

The big picture story here is
that trans dimensional life forms—

We're getting a lot of trans
dimensional life forms in Star Trek,

all of a sudden, it seems like.

—have come into our dimension and,
unluckily, the place where they appear

is within the holodeck of Voyager, and
the life forms that come through are

photonic lifeform who believe it is
normal to be a lifeform made of light.

And so everything in the
holodeck seems realistic to them.

And the organic life forms who
insist they are real, seem completely

fake and unbelievable to them.

So this whole scenario of Dr.

Chaotica destroying the Captain
Proton's planet like that is, they take

that at face value and go after Dr.

Chaotica who wages war on them with his
Death Ray, and they start dying off.

The fictional characters on Voyagers,
holodeck are waging war with these

real photonic life forms, and
Voyager's crew is stuck in the middle

and needs to untangle the situation.

Doctor hologram to the rescue, or as he
portrays himself, the President of Earth,

steps in and it explains a version of this
that the photonic life forms can believe.

And then the big culmination of this
is Janeway stepping into the role

of Queen Arachnia, the Spider Queen.

Uh, And yeah, there is that moment
when uh, Tom Paris is laying this

all out where everyone looks to Seven
because it seems obvious that she's

gonna be the seductive Spider Queen in
the holodeck scenario, but for reasons

that are completely unexplained, Paris
goes, no you gotta do this Janeway.

And she's up for it.

Rob: At first she isn't.

She has the double take at
first going, oh no, no, no,

Kevin: No, no.

And, if you get into trouble, ma'am,
you can always release the pheromones.

I beg your pardon?

It's it's very funny.

That scene or, or or couple of scenes
where she is in the holodeck in her full

like Spider Queen outfit, it's something
that is often referenced at conventions.

Kate Mulgrew talks about how much fun
she had in that episode, and I think

I agree with you that this episode has
taken on a larger than life presence

in fandom because of that reason.

And then when we go back and watch
the actual episode, it's less than

we've made it out to be in our memory.

But it is still fun to see
her play along with Dr.

Chaotica.

Rob: So much so, I wanna see more of it.

The joy of Our Man Bashir is seeing
all our regular cast taken over

by these personalities, uh whether
Russian spies or drug dealers or, all

this type of man of mystery, and they
embrace it for most of the story.

Whereas with this, like I said, it's,
60%, how are we gonna solve this problem?

And sure, it's great to get a scene
of Janeway walking in, having Neelix

talk in her ear and she goes, I
can't talk until I get my coffee.

And the, the acting of Kate
Mulgrew, as she takes that sip and

you see her literally change in
front of you to go, alright, now

I'm ready to put up with Neelix.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: That's good.

But I want a full hour of black
and white ridiculousness, full body

costume robots and Kate Mulgrew
just chewing up every scene.

Kevin: Satan's robot is what
they call it in this episode.

And it's funny because they never
quite say, I hate you, robot.

But all of the acting that's going
on in the scenes when the robot is

there says, I loathe this thing.

Like they, they repair the robot
and then immediately the robot gets

itself in trouble and gets itself
damaged and goes, Need repair.

Need repair.

And Tuvok and Paris who are in that
scene, just very deliberately roll

their eyes and turn away from it.

Like you can repair
yourself, you stupid robot.

Uh, It is very funny.

The funniest thing in this episode for me,
I agree with you, was not in the holodeck.

It is when Tom Paris is explaining
what's going on in the holodeck.

They're in the briefing room and Jane
was like, so let me get this straight.

The photonic life forms this, and Dr.

Chaotica that, and now he's
waging war on them with his army.

And Paris goes, yes ma'am.

Yes ma'am.

His army of evil.

Yes ma'am.

It is just, it is the perfect
kind of self-conscious.

That they like, they just
dip their toe into that.

There's another moment in the
hallway way where Paris goes

And remember, you are the queen.

And it, it is like they take
that one line to go, yes, we are

winking at the audience here.

But then we step back into taking this
seriously which I felt like was missing

from Strange New Worlds, is they were way
spending way more time over that line,

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: into unbelievability.

Rob: It's very much watching this
episode has made me realize, of course

of all the cast of Voyager, of course
it would be Tom Paris and Harry Kim

who create their own podcast to review
every episode because the actors and

the characters are perfectly that.

Like the moment where he goes full nerd
and goes, now remember it's not phaser,

it's called Laser Gun and nah, it's
not called transporter, it's Energizer.

Nah.

Kevin: Yes, that's right.

Rob: That's why we need a moment where
Boimler meets Paris, 'cause I think

they would just geek out together.

Kevin: Well, so we chose the exact
same example of Camp Star Trek, and

I don't think there's anything that
comes close to the Bride of Chaotica!

Rob: Not really.

I mean, 'cause I think Bride of
Chaotica!, like you said, they returned

to this holosuite a bit in season five.

I think the first episode of
season five is where they first

introduced that Paris goes into it.

'cause I think each season they have
almost something new like season one when

they go to the holosuite, it's like that
Parisian cafe type space that they go to.

And then they kind of go off on their own
where Janeway is manipulating her program

to get the perfect man, lose the wife.

Um, but yeah, season five is
the the Captain Proton season.

Kevin: The only other one that came
to my mind was like from the original

series, season three, episode 20, The
Way to Eden, which is the one with

the singing space hippies on board.

And I barely remember the plot of
this episode, but it ends with the

space hippies finding the planet that
they think is Eden, but it turns out

the fruit is corrosive and poisonous
and the leader doesn't believe it.

He climbs a tree and eats one of
these fruits and dies on the ground.

It's full of scenes of these hippies on
the ship, singing songs in the rec room.

And it is unfortunately, quite cringey.

It's acknowledged to be one
of the bad episodes of season

three of the original series.

So I would not class it among the
other, these other examples of

like deliberately camp Star Trek.

I would say this is one of those
episodes where Star Trek gets its bad

reputation of being camp inadvertently.

Rob: Yeah, a lot of people have
called out uh, Trouble with

Tribbles as a little bit of a campy
one just because of the inherent

Kevin: The lighthearted.

Rob: Yeah.

Um and we've mentioned it many times
before, like baseball episode, Take

Me Out to the Holosuite is quite
campy in some ways on Deep Space Nine.

So they are there.

But definitely Bride of Chaotica!

is the one that's leaned into.

And like you said, it's quite
surprising, my memories of it, it

was more campy than it actually was.

Kevin: Certainly Dr.

Chaotica and his chewing of the
scenery, that is camp at 11 and uh,

he pulls it off like the actor is
playing 100% commitment and truth.

Rob: And the henchman as
well is great as well.

The henchman

Kevin: The henchman with the helmet
that's got room for two heads in.

It is,

Rob: yeah.

Kevin: hilarious.

Rob: So, Yeah, that's us going down
the all singing, all dancing, all

camp approach to Star Trek this week.

I'm, I know there's a lot of people
who loved it and um, great that Kevin

and I are seeing each other on the same
page when it comes to this episode.

Yeah, sadly, not as memorable and a
lot more disposable than we would've

hoped, but only one more episode to go.

Kevin: I know.

And it is, unlike every other episode
this season, they like, they have

the cloak of secrecy around this one.

There has been very little pre announcing
of stuff that will happen here.

I don't wanna say it out loud, but I
feel it's pretty clear to me that Pike's

lady friend is gonna get eaten by a gorn.

Like those are the, those are the two
dangling plot threads that I've got.

Way back in The Broken Circle, they had
the Gorn ship crossing some line on a

map, and that has been left dangling.

So that's clearly to come back.

And her final scene with Pike
this episode, I was sitting there

going, oh no, she's gonna die.

It was very much a, aren't we happy that
we finally understand each other and

now we can start our lives together?

I've just got one important
mission to go on first.

Bye.

And uh, yeah, she's not
coming back, I don't think.

Rob: She is not coming back.

And she's great.

She's a really good
character, really good actor.

But, things must be sacrificed
in the story of Pike.

Kevin: Hey I forgot to mention
regarding our hip hopping Klingons,

the captain of the Klingon
ship was played by Bruce Horak.

Uh, Hemmer.

Rob: I didn't know that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Brought him back again,
and this time as a Klingon.

Kevin: He could be the uh, the new Weyoun.

Rob: The new Jeffrey Coombs.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

Coombs is there going,
don't take my record, man.

Now before we finish up, I've got to,
I've gotta bring something to light.

Last night I did something, 'cause I've
been watching a lot of videos about the

history of star Trek and stuff like that.

So I went back and I did something that
I said I would never watch again, Kevin.

Last night I watched Star Trek
III: The Search for Spock.

Kevin: Why what, what, what possessed you?

Uh, I, I'm not complaining, but of
all the times I have implored you to

go back and watch that amazing movie
and, and you haven't done so, I'm

wondering what made you do it this time?

Rob: I've been watching these uh,
series of retrospectives on Star Trek.

I'm watching them out of order.

So I watched like the Deep
Space Nine one first and I'm

going back through the movies.

So I did them out of order.

So I did like Star Trek II first,
then I did Star Trek V, then I did

Star Trek VI, and I did Star Trek III.

And just hearing about the process
of making the film, shooting the

film, getting the finances for it,
where it was within the banner of

things and how they referred to the
Genesis Trilogy is a really solid

trilogy within the Star Trek films.

And that consistency we haven't really
had within the Star Trek movies.

That is like the gold standard,
Star Trek II, III, IV.

Yeah.

And all those little gags that we'd
mentioned about how Uhura with the

young cadet wanting to be the adventure
boy, and don't call me Tiny, and and

to see Christopher Lloyd again, 'cause
I haven't watched it in so long.

And it was great to re-watch.

It's for a first time director of a
motion picture, Nimoy it, the pace

just goes at an incredible rate.

Taking those moments to absorb the
heavy hitting moments Shatner is in

wonderful form, does really well.

It's heartbreaking.

And the reaction shots of Jimmy
Doohan and the other cast looking

at Kirk when he's lost David.

And it's such a, yeah,
like it's not shown.

It's a messy, dirty, un
heroic, but very heroic death.

And it's just what I remember.

And just his moment of just, he can't
even take his boys' body with him.

And he has to leave it there and
just cover it with his jacket.

And the final scene just had me in tears.

The final scene went in, like I'd seen,
I've seen it a, a couple of times, but to

watch it now and to see just Spock with
his mind back and him still trying and

he just turns around, takes off his hood
and his scene with Kirk is just amazing.

Kevin: The ship out of danger uh,

Rob: Oh God.

Kevin: When they replay the lines,
because the katra that was put in McCoy

is before Spock goes into the radiation
chamber, the fact that he would have

the same questions with the same
words when he is brought back to life.

I love that writing.

It is it is underwritten in such
that subtle way that lets the

performances tell the story.

I agree that is a powerful ending.

Rob: And I knew it was, I knew it
was coming, but I, it was interesting

to find out that they pretty much
wrote backwards because they knew

that Spock's final line would be, or
what the powerful line would be, Jim.

Your name is Jim.

And just watching Nimoy's face and
just this is why I, he is incredible.

He just has so much going on.

He's not a robot.

You can see him trying to form
and just the, cavalcade of

emotions he has across his face.

From that is just outstanding.

I was just bawling when he was just there
going, everything that Kirk has lost,

we've talked about, and to see it again.

His ship gone, the ship that, you know,
that Spock saved and the people that he

saved and loss of his son to do all that.

Just to get his, this
more than a friend back.

And just and Bones's
talk with him as well.

Yeah.

God, it's, yeah, it's powerful stuff.

It's great stuff.

And just the time they take at
the end for the whole process

of the katra being swapped over.

So I know it's off topic, but it
was very much a you are on my mind

as I was watching it late last
night when I couldn't get to sleep.

I chucked it on

Kevin: Oh, very

Rob: and yeah, bawled myself
into a state of catharsis.