Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin.

Rob: And I'm Rob.

Kevin: And we are here to talk
about season two, episode five

of Strange New Worlds: Charades.

Rob: We certainly are.

Now, this episode has caused a little bit
of controversy, a little bit of bruhaha.

Kevin: Has it now?

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

There's been,

Kevin: I'm still traveling,
so I am off the grid.

I have not caught the
bruhaha about this episode.

Rob: Either been absolutely
adored or there's Star Trek

fans going, it's far too silly.

So it is most definitely, it's most
definitely a comedy focused episode

with a bit of heart kicker at the end.

Kevin: Yeah.

Big time.

Rob: Me personally, I had a
great time with this episode.

I thought it was a lot of fun and
I really embraced the fun of it.

What about you, Kev?

Kevin: Me too.

I think I've said before that I don't
mind some comedy in my Star Trek,

as long as it stands out as special.

And one all out comedy episode a season
for Strange New Worlds is, that is

perfectly permissible, and in fact, I'd
be disappointed if we didn't get it.

I am still a little worried that
we've got a Lower Decks crossover to

look forward to later this season.

So it, it might be a little high on
the comedy content, but judged on its

own merits, this episode lit me up.

I loved it.

Rob: It really had a strong
kick at the end, a really strong

emotional kick at the end.

Kevin: It was more than the sum
of its parts, this episode for me,

because of the strong execution.

Like when you stand back and you look
at some of the shuttle wormhole stuff

and it, it maybe some of those story
beats maybe don't stand up to scrutiny

entirely, that there was this big anomaly
on a moon right near Vulcan that for

some reason the Enterprise was called
in to explore it with a shuttle craft.

It's all a little vague and unclear.

and it kind of has to be
that because I feel like it

wouldn't make sense otherwise.

So they're asking us to go along with
them for the strength of the story,

and I was completely willing to go
along with it because of the strength

of the performances and, and as
always what it did for our characters.

Rob: Yes.

If the species that they came across
only called when we identified them,

they were yellow and blue and there
were multiple other beings there.

They were very transactional in
their almost god-like powers.

And it very much reminded me of a
Doctor Who story from first season with

Christopher Eccleston called The Empty
Child and The Doctor Dances, a two-parter.

It's one of the greatest episodes ever.

And in that, it's nanobot technology that
doesn't really understand the human form.

And so when it heals people, cause
they're from a medical ship, they heal

them in the only example they have.

So they cause these hideous,
grotesque mutations, but they

don't have a point of reference.

So it's that cold, logical thing.

And that came across in this episode
because the big twist in this episode

is that these omnipotent beings
turn Spock dun, dun, dun, human.

Kevin: Yeah.

And as he sat up from the bed, I,
first of all I'm hearing some folks

out there knew this story was coming.

I did not know this story was
coming, so when he sat up human,

I was like, Oh, of course.

This is going to be a hijinks
episode, very similar to Spock Amok

last season where Spock and T'Pring

Rob: swap bodies

Kevin: personalities, the
body swap episode, and great

hilarity came out of it.

Basically in the first 30 seconds of
Spock being human, you could see what

they were going for and it was laughs.

Rob: Oh, and yeah.

The mere fact that they cut to
the opening credits with him

going, what the f---, I went.

And now I know how you felt about
Data in Generations going, Whoa, shit.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: you find the WTF
moment for Spock, here?

Kevin: L look, I moved past
it, let's put it that way.

I think in the moment I chuckled
and rolled my eyes and went,

okay, I'll give you that one.

There better be a good story coming here.

And there was, there was.

I feel like something that's
interesting about this episode is

that a lot of the comedy serves
to disarm us for the emotional

gut punches that come towards the

Rob: There are some really big gut punches
here, Kevin and I really am there for it.

Can I just say it is great to have
Mia Kirshner back, as Amanda Grayson?

She appeared in Discovery.

And as a man of 45 years old who grew
up in the eighties and nineties and

a hot blooded heterosexual male, I
was very familiar with Mia's work.

She is incredible, an incredible
actress, and she was this darling of the

independent theater scene in the nineties.

She did an incredible
Canadian film, Exotica.

She did Unidentified Human
Remains and The True Nature of

Love, the film version of that.

She was in The Crow too.

Horrible film, but she was amazing.

She did The L Word.

She was this like really
powerful, talented, deep,

sexy actress in the nineties.

And she got lost in the system and for
her to come back, and in typical Star Trek

fashion when, Zachary Quinto's mum in the
movies is Winona Rider, they bring in Mia,

who's only 10 years older than Ethan Peck.

But to have her back in a substantial
role, as opposed to just in a couple

of flashbacks, or exposition scenes,
and she knocked it outta the park.

She had some heavy lifting to do and her
and Ethan Peck have such great chemistry.

It was wonderful to see.

Kevin: Indeed.

Yeah, I also, we're gonna talk about
this in a little bit, but I had an

opportunity to revisit the original
actor who played Amanda Grayson, Jane

Wyatt, back in the original series.

And having just seen our modern
incarnation of Amanda going back

and seeing Jane Wyatt the casting
done here was actually remarkable.

There is a uncanny likeness, like she
could be Jane Wyatt minus 20 years, and

there's just something about the smile
and the eyes that is instantly connects

the two and perhaps more than any other
legacy character, let's say, or character

that is carried from back in the sixties
and then into modern Star Trek, I feel

like the casting is pitch perfect here.

I don't have to.

Go along with a change of look.

Even in Pike's case, I feel like Anson
Mount, I'm happy to have him on board

because he's such an amazing actor.

I don't quite buy him as
Jeffrey Hunter minus 10 years.

But Amanda Grayson here, they
could be the same person.

Rob: Yeah.

And there's lovely little touches because
we talked about Star Trek IV The Voyage

Home, and and the original actress
coming back to do her opening scene

with Spock when he's finding his memory.

But the connection here is, in this
episode, this is Spock right in the middle

of his lack of communication with his dad.

Sarek is so disappointed
in him joining Starfleet.

He's not even talking to
his son at this point.

And that really tears up the family.

And when you cut ahead, you have to
go ahead however many decades that

finally in the final scene of Star Trek
IV, at the end he goes, If I recall,

I was not happy with your decision
to Starfleet, and that was wrong.

And then the two of them bond.

And I'm there going, that's decades.

That's 20, 30 years in the making
and we're at the point where

they're not talking at all.

It's really powerful stuff and it's
really beautifully done, and especially

Ethan Peck's performance and Mia's
performance, to go back to when he talked

to her about what she sacrificed as a
mother so that he could be, you know,

the son that you know that she want.

It's just powerful stuff.

It's really good work.

Actors at the top of their form.

Kevin: Yeah.

A canon connection that you might
have missed is at the very beginning,

Chapel is reciting the things that
she's memorizing for her interview

with the Vulcan Science program.

And she's reciting Korby's three laws
of xenobiology or something like that.

Korby is a very important name
in Christine Chapel canon.

One of the very few things we find
out about Christine Chapel in original

series, apart from she's head over heels
for Spock in unrequited love is that

she has a previous re relationship with
Roger Korby, who is a xenoarcheologist

who disappeared and they in the episode,
I believe it's called, What Are Little

Girls Made Of?, they rediscover Roger
Korby, who turns out to have been

killed and replaced by Androids.

Rob: Of course.

Okay.

There's that sci-fi twist
where they go, what is it?

What is it?

Ah, of course, pesky androids.

Kevin: I will never forget the scar
that was left on my psyche as a young

child of Roger Korby's scraped hand
and like the skin flayed off of it to

reveal android workings underneath.

And him like holding his hand up
to Christine going, it's just skin.

It's easily repairable, Christine.

I'm still the man you loved.

Rob: Powerful stuff.

Kevin: A great episode.

Yeah.

Rob: Yeah.

So in this particular episode, Spock,
even though has been transformed

into human, there's problems at home.

T'Pring and him are coming up to their
engagement ceremony that they need to

do an acceptance from T'Pring's family.

We have her family arrive on the
ship because they can't make their

way back to Vulcan for the ceremony
because of the humanization of Spock.

We have Amanda show up.

We have.

We have Pike offer his room as the
ceremonial place, and he's catering.

He's catering for the whole event.

Kevin: He cooks.

Rob: He's cooking for
everybody, supplying drinks.

Anson Mount is in comedy fine form here.

His double takes.

Kevin: And also playing straight
man to Spock in the bacon scene.

Rob: Yes, straight man there.

But then he could flip it around.

So when Spock, then being the
straight man Anson Mount can be

the funny one who's walking in with
a tray and going, oh, let's just

move off here in an awkward way.

Having a double take as he
takes a shot of alcohol.

Love it.

Kevin: How great is T'Pring's dad?

That's a father-in-law.

I want.

Rob: Yeah.

There is not a mother-in-law I want,
but there is definitely a father-in-law.

Kevin: You take, the one with the other.

Rob: Yeah, you can.

I don't think you could
have one without the other.

Great moments for me.

Great to have Sam Kirk back being
the unaware he's gotta read the room

better, and getting terrified by a
human Spock threatening to, to end him.

Kevin: Over crumbs.

Yeah.

Rob: And in the background, they had a
picture of Jonathan Archer's Enterprise.

Kevin: Oh really?

I didn't catch that.

Very good.

Rob: And, Spock in a beanie.

Spock in a Federation issued
beanie really leaning into

that adolescent version of him.

Kevin: That's probably the biggest
laugh I got this entire episode was

then he came in the beanie, I lost
it and then he said It's regulation.

And Pike says, I have
one just like it myself.

And I was dead.

So good.

Rob: Yeah, so it all came to a head
with Spock standing up for his mother.

And and the reveal that, oh, yeah, you
know the stepmother, they're saying that

despite your faults, your human side, you
were able to do this ceremony perfectly.

And he goes actually, I've been
human the whole time and it

makes me stronger, not weaker.

And his connection about his
mother is beautifully done.

But at the end, it's really interesting
cuz like our first shenanigans episode

was the body swap and that brought
T'Pring and Spock closer together.

And another shenanigans episode used for
T'Pring and Spock having some time apart.

I mean, Obviously we know this is a doomed
relationship anyway, but it's amazing

how, to deal with these Vulcan emotional
journeys, we put them in shenanigans.

Kevin: I'm sure we have not seen
the last of T'Pring not least

because that actor is amazing.

Rob: She's incredible.

Incredible.

Kevin: She elevates every
episode that she comes in.

And that costume, woo, the outfit that
she and her mother-in-law argued about

for three hours, I don't, I'm gonna say it
was worth it because she looked amazing.

Rob: And I think Ethan Peck said
something about it was really good,

or he said, he made a comment about
how good it was, and I'm, they're

going, I'm right there with you.

Kevin: But yes, I'm sure
we'll see her again.

We've got the dangling thread of Sybok
in the rehabilitation clinic for Vulcans.

So I'm sure we'll see T'Pring in that
context if no other, but it was notable

to me that the way this episode leaves
off Spock and T'Pring could roll

right into the original series, now.

If the next thing we saw of
T'Pring was Spock doing one of his

awkward family reveals where it's
like, oh yeah, that's my wife.

You never told us you had a wife.

Like that, 5, 10 years from now is
perfectly believable as a next beat.

Like Spock is emotionally unaware enough
that he could let it fester in this

state for 10 years until he is forced
to fight for his wife, as it were,

in Amok Time in the original series.

But I'm sure we, we have more
to see of T'Pring and Spock.

Rob: I was a little bit disappointed with
the appearance of Amanda Grayson and that

tantalizing hint of her knowing Pelia that
we didn't have Carol Kane in the episode.

Hopefully that is a payoff we get to
see with Pelia investing so much going,

Kevin: Yeah.

It was awkward, isn't it?

That they they went out of their way to
set up Pelia for no reason that we know

of yet is a friend of Spock's mother's,
and then Spock's mother appears and it's

okay, we're gonna get that payoff right?

And they say, no, not this week.

Sorry.

Rob: This is one of the episodes
where Carol Kane isn't in it, and it

was, yeah I was looking out for that.

I was hoping for that.

And of course the big reveal at
the end is that Chapel and Spock,

Kevin: Oh, such a great buildup to
like, um, that was quite a kiss,

Rob: Look, look, we have done, I have, I
fought for most of our last season to do

an episode fully focused on sex, Kevin.

You finally submitted and allowed us
to do one episode and the, it was hot.

It was incredibly

Kevin: proves that you don't
need to go to the sex in order

to make it hot on Star Trek.

This was, this was some steamy stuff.

The scene before where Chapel comes with
the cure and Spock is about to confess

his feelings, and she just goes, Nope.

Stabs you in the neck.

And then walks out like in tears.

When she walks out this is like a
recurring motif in, in Strange New Worlds

now, where the shot either begins or
ends in soft focus and the character

walks into focus rather than it.

Rather than her walking forward and
them racking, like following her with

the focus, the camera is sitting there
waiting until she is ready to enter

the frame and she, she steps forward
and just the devastation on her face.

That feeling of it like coming into focus
in front of us makes it that much more.

Just so much going on there of the story,
working, the acting, working and the

camera work, working to make us really
feel that moment that makes the next

one where they finally kiss in Spock's
quarters feel that much more elated.

Rob: It's really, it's, oh, we've
spoken a lot about Spock in this,

but it's a very much a Chapel episode
as well and her emotional journey.

She's, they've really added so many
layers to Nurse Chapel as a character.

She's complex.

She's not someone you, you know,
completely see as infallible.

She's got so many faults and problems
and issues, but it never gets in

the way of her doing a great job.

And she's true to herself and
she went through a lot this time.

Kevin: I've had my doubts
about Jess Bush's ability to

add to the legacy of Majel
Barrett-Roddenberry in, in this role.

But Long ago now she sold me, and now I
am just like so glad we still have her.

In this episode, when they fly into the
blue funnel and there are, are standing

in the trans-dimensional space arguing
over whether their complaint period has

expired or not, and whether uh, friends
are allowed to make complaints, that

moment where Chapel is standing face to
face with nothing and needs to confess

her feelings in order to save Spock.

I was like watching it as two people.

On the one hand, I was watching it
from the outside going, this is such

a sci-fi setup, of five unbelievable
things have happened in short succession

here in order to force a character to
confess out loud for the benefit of

the audience, feelings that we might
not otherwise get to hear out loud.

It beggars belief.

But at the same time I was like, say it.

Just say it, Christine.

You know it to be true.

Rob: You were there with Uhura and Ortegas
and they're just going, dude, just say it.

All right?

We all know it, okay?

Just say it.

But like Alice says, in in Through the
Looking Glass, I like to believe in

three impossible things before breakfast.

In Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, I like
to believe five impossible things before

we have Chapel confess her love for Spock.

And then the payoff at the end
when she's rejected by the Vulcan

special program she wants to go in.

And he goes, okay, I'll just have
to write about it myself about this

encounter with this omnipotent being.

And they go what was that?

He goes, just read it in my paper.

Boom.

Take that Vulcans.

Just like Spock says, Vulcans are jerks.

Kevin: Vulcans can be such jerks, he says.

And that is the theme we decided
to carry with us into Star Trek

history today, Vulcans being jerks.

and so Rob, what did you find?

I've got a couple of
things we could go to here.

I've got some Enterprise,

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: got some original series.

Rob: I went Enterprise.

I've gone on a Enterprise bender the
last couple of weeks and I wanted

to stay down that, and of course

Kevin: I thought for sure you would
take us to Deep Space Nine on this one.

Rob: I was look, I, because of the
the recent sad, tragic news of the

passing of showrunner of season four
of Enterprise, Manny Coto, recently

passing away with pancreatic cancer.

We send out sympathy and well
wishes to him and his family.

What an incredible legacy with Star Trek.

And he doesn't really get
the focus that he should.

I mean, I wasn't aware of him until
quite recently, and so I find it quite

heartbreaking that I've only just
discovered the impact he had on Star Trek.

And to have that taken away, he was
such a important part of finding the

voice and shape of Enterprise, which
was really lost for quite some time.

So yeah, I went down the rabbit
hole of Enterprise for this one.

Kevin: Absolutely, I'm
right there with you.

I, I watched a bit of season
four Enterprise myself this week.

Uh, you wanna, You wanna intro
it for our audience, Rob?

Rob: Yes.

I focused on the three part
story as they do in season four.

To cut back on money, they did
a lot of multi episode stories.

How very Doctor Who.

And we're looking at the three part
story, The Forge, Awakening and Kir'Shara.

So this is tying up a lot of
loose ends that have been going

in the previous three seasons.

It starts at the Vulcan Embassy with the
Admiral and one of the representatives

from Vulcan talking about the Starfleet
and are Earth ready and wanting to

go on into adventures on their own
without being like babysat by the

Vulcans, which they've been doing
pretty much since first contact.

And tension back and forth until there's
a hit, an explosion where the admiral

is killed, close friend of Archer.

And the the delegate from Vulcan has
been saved by the Admiral's sacrifice.

And that takes us down a massive
three-part adventure, which I think

is probably a little bit too long.

Three parts is probably,
outstayed their welcome a bit.

But it goes through who
caused this explosion.

There's the High Council of Vulcan,
who seemed to be intent on blaming it

on a dissident faction of the Vulcans.

Kevin: The Syrannites.

Rob: Syrannites and also blaming the
Andorians, to lead into, which we find

out is a massive conspiracy that's
actually the overseer of the Council,

his overriding mission to take down
the Andorian people and rule Vulcan.

And while there's a subplot of trying
to find these hidden scrolls, that from

one of the first prophets of Vulcan

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: From 1800 years ago.

Kevin: The original writings of Surak who
was, who led in the time of enlightenment

where Vulcans discovered logic.

Rob: So it's a great episode that
really showed the many layers of

the Vulcan culture as opposed to
just robotic emotionless beings.

A race isn't defined by a stereotype.

It is, it is layered and multifaceted.

Kevin: Talk to me about Vulcans
being jerks in this three parter.

Rob: It's very much, there's a
ruthless, cold-hearted nature to

the Council, especially uh, V'Las
is the main source behind it.

He has his own spy network, an old network
that are loyal to him, willing to do

whatever it takes and to kill whoever
they need to so that Vulcan can become

the mighty power that he wants it to be.

The Enterprise is shot
at, nearly blown up.

We have camps where the
Syrannites are located are bombed,

like blanket, carpet bombed.

And the infighting within the Vulcan
culture about how much emotion to

express, what is not expressed.

We have T'Pol is having problems with
her emotions, big surprise there when

with her run-in with her mum, played
by the wonderful Joanna Cassidy, who we

all know from Blade Runner, and she was
originally up for the role of Janeway.

Kevin: Of course, I didn't realize
who, what I recognized her from.

Rob: So there's a lot going on here.

Archer gets the Katra of the
leader of the rebellion inside

his brain, which leads him into
the brain of the original prophet.

There's a lot of levels there.

Basically it's 2, 2, 2 and a
half episodes of Archer walking

through the desert with T'Pol, and.

And a lot of machinations
going on behind the scenes.

We have really a really weird over
the top dramatic torture scene

with the Andorians and a Vulcan.

But there's some good stuff in there
about adding layers to the Vulcan culture

and how it can go extreme and it can go
into quite nefarious and deadly areas.

Kevin: As I've read in hindsight this
three parter was crafted no doubt with

great input from the late, great Manny
Coto, to address a question that was

planted in fans' minds by the first
three seasons of Enterprise, which

is why are these Vulcans such jerks?

From the very first episode, Broken
Bow where Archer decides to take their

Warp Five ship, the Enterprise on
its first mission ahead of schedule,

the Vulcans are naysaying the entire
way going, no, it's too early.

You shouldn't go.

You're gonna make a mess out there.

You don't know what
you're gonna stumble into.

Throughout the first seasons of
Enterprise, the Vulcans are constantly

patronizing overseers, puppet masters,
a controlling influence on Earth's

exploration out into the galaxy.

And as I've read, fans at the time
took exception to this, that before

this, what we knew of Vulcans is
that generally they were genial types

who, served as a first officer of
a starship or worked with B'Elanna

Torres in engineering and generally
they were at worst, harmless nerds.

At best, they were our favorite
characters in the series in which

they appeared in Spock's case.

And suddenly, here in Enterprise, the
Vulcans are basically the antagonists.

They are pushing back against
everything our protagonists are trying

to do, questioning it, undermining
it, predicting their downfall and

causing us to second guess ourselves.

And fans were upset that color was used
to paint the brush of Vulcan society.

And here in this three parter
in season four, Manny Koto

said there's a reason for that.

And let me tell you this story.

Vulcan had lost its way.

And this, the High Council revealed in
the final moments of that third episode

having an influence of the Romulans
behind the scenes, leading them astray.

V'Las, the puppet master is
Emperor Palpatine level evil.

By the end, he's shouting at people and
holding people at gunpoint and snarling

orders into the comms over a table
that shows the moving forces on a map

that he is planning evil deeds with.

So they lean fully over the edge
and go, these people are so evil,

there's no way for them to come back.

And then it turns out the Syrannites who
are the kind Vulcans, the logical Vulcans,

Rob: Pacifists.

Kevin: the Vulcans who are still connected
to the peaceful teachings of Surak,

they are the Vulcans that we know and
love and led by T'Pau who incidentally,

speaking of Spock and T'Pring,
oversees Spock and T'Pring's severance

of their nuptial vows in Amok Time.

She's the crotchety old lady in the
throne that gets carried in by servants.

Rob: She looked really good in Enterprise.

Kevin: She did quite, a bit better.

The way like they were paying attention
to detail everywhere they could, even on

a shoestring budget, here in season four.

The way she does a mind meld on
Archer with a very distinctive,

like finger hooked under the chin.

That is exactly how T'Pau
did it in Amok Time.

And it was like, wow,
she is a stern Vulcan.

She gives the painful mind melds.

She gives the mind melds
you don't wanna get.

Rob: I did notice that I was
there going, she's doing it a very

unique way because it's normally
just on the front of the face.

And to have that tie in,
that's very good work.

Tip of the hat to Manny Coto
for getting that in there.

Yeah.

And some interesting stuff that was
connected to this week's episode of

Strange New Worlds, it sounds silly
saying it out loud, but it makes sense

in the show, the nasal suppressants.

Kevin: Yes, yes, Yes indeed.

Well established by Enterprise and T'Pol.

Rob: Because human beings are so
pungent in their smell that Vulcans

need to learn how to literally
suppress their smell so they aren't

just disgusted with that human stench.

And that was brought back in with

Kevin: line, speaking of Strange New
Worlds making Star Trek better in

hindsight, that is something like
that element that T'Pol was holding

her nose every day she served on
Enterprise in that series at the time,

like that never really played for me.

Like they established it and it
just made me uncomfortable because

I watched every episode going, she's
got, she's having a terrible time.

She either, is smelling these humans
that she can't stand or she's

taking nasal suppressants so she
can't smell or taste anything.

It was it was uncomfortable.

I think it was there to establish her
alienness in some way, or to establish

her early at the start of her arc
that she almost literally looked down

her nose at humanity, but by the end
was choosing to, to be a member of

Starfleet and a member of that crew.

Like I can see what they were going
for there, but in reality it just

made me uncomfortable for her because
I was like, yeah, on your best

day, everything reeks at your work.

Rob: Oh.

Kevin: And so there was never a
moment in Enterprise where I was

like, oh yeah that's a payoff.

I enjoy that, now.

But here in one line, Spock, he smells his
armpits and goes, do I smell more human?

And I laughed for, I laughed
for, all of that set up in of

Enterprise, like suddenly all of
that paid off in that one moment of

Ethan Peck smelling his underarms.

And I was like, it's better.

It's now better than it was.

Rob: I totally agree.

So yeah, I focused on those episodes.

I really they added more to the canon
of Star Trek and just definitely to the

Vulcans, they needed to go through this
to get to the species we all know and

love in the original series, which is
as we know, a hundred years from now.

Kevin: So what this series of
episodes did, there are few versions

of Vulcans are jerks in my mind.

One is here, Vulcans are jerks
because they have lost their way,

forgotten the teachings of Surak.

They're power hungry, fear driven,
Romulan influenced, evil villains.

That's one version of Vulcans being jerks.

But there's a bit of a second version,
which is the Vulcans are racist jerks.

And that even in the Syrannites
here, where T'Pau says she's

going to do the ritual to extract
Surak's Katra from Captain Archer,

whether he agrees to it or not.

And she is not about to let the future of
her people be at risk for the life of one

human, she says with a, like revulsion.

Even our good Vulcans here, in
Enterprise, they look down on humanity.

They, they see them as lesser.

And that is something that is the color
I think that is strongest in Vulcans

are jerks this week in Charades.

That you get the strong sense, although
it is never said out loud that Chapel

is being rejected not for her skills
or for the fact that she paraphrased

Korby's rules of Xenoarcheology.

She's being rejected because she's
human and Vulcans are racist.

Rob: Yeah, and you definitely see that,
how is it for Amanda Grayson living in a

culture that hates her and they hate her
purely just because of, that she's human,

not for anything about her as a person.

And in, in that episode Charades
in the episode we just did, they

are outwardly racist to her,
like the undermining comments.

It's not like out and saying we hate
you, because that's not what racists do.

But just the turn of phrase, the slight,
emphasis on a certain word or implying

things, it was just, hits so much deeper.

And it is, you can see
it's a racist culture.

And the third point to you is they can be
this way, they can be racist, or they can

be, just really good baseball players and
and treat the other team like, inferiors.

Kevin: If you weren't
gonna say it, I was, Rob.

Why don't you take us out to the
holosuite for a second and remind us

of what happened to Benjamin Sisko.

Rob: Yes.

So it is an episode that we have
focused on before when we did

do I think it was oh, break.

Yeah, it was episodes that it was
either holodeck episodes or it was

an episode talking about changing the
palette when it's all a bit harsh.

Anyway it's basically an excuse
for Sisko to finally play some

baseball or be involved in a baseball
game cause he loves it so much.

He has a run in with a former colleague
within the Federation who is of

course a, a Vulcan who say we're
stronger, we're faster, we're better,

and we can beat you in anything.

Kevin: This is Captain Solok, in Take
Me Out to the Holosuite, which is season

seven, episode four of Deep Space Nine.

Rob: So we're right at the
pointy end of the Dominion War.

This captain runs a ship only with
Vulcans, the entire crew is Vulcans.

And so they challenge there, there was
a challenge for a baseball game where

despite the fact that Vulcans are more
intelligent, faster, and better athletes

the ragtag band of Deep Space Niners get
together and with their heart, with their

heart, Kevin, they give Rom a go and
Rom even though they don't win the game,

they win the spirit of what's important.

The winner today was baseball.

Kevin: They score one point and
celebrate and Captain Solok's like you

manufactured victory where none existed
and this, you're right, to me, is a

third version of Vulcans being jerks.

Whereas Vulcans can just
be too serious, man.

They can be implacable, unfazable.

There is a sense that they will
never admit they are wrong.

They will instead bend logic to their
needs to prove themselves right, even

when they are otherwise in the wrong.

And that version of Vulcans being jerks,
Vulcans not admitting when they're wrong.

Is like a strong one.

Rob: And how they get easily frustrated
by human behavior to the point where,

Sisko gets kicked out because he
touches Odo, which you don't do,

you don't touch the ref, the umpire.

And the Vulcan does the exact
same thing and the joy on Odo's

face, he goes, You're outta here!

But the Vulcans in this episode in
particular look like more Vulcan.

They have a bit of makeup added
in, so they're a bit paler,

a bit, a little bit greener.

The all the hair is the
same cut and design.

So when we go to Enterprise,
we've got different hairstyles.

We've got the bowl cut, but we've
also got the scraggly down hair,

the Anakin Skywalker haircut.

But in take me out to the holosuite,
they are definitely all uniform in

their appearance and more alien in

Kevin: Yeah.

In service of the story, of

Rob: Very much so.

So, yeah, I did get a little Deep,
Space Nine in there no matter what.

Thank you.

What about you?

What's a Star Trek episode
where Vulcans are such jerks?

Kevin: Look I saw these three versions
that, that Vulcans can be jerks because

in Enterprise they lost their way.

They can be jerks because they're racist.

They can be jerks because they
are unfeeling monsters who

never admit they're wrong.

And I was like, where does
the all of this come from?

So reminded by the presence of Amanda
and the conspicuous absence of Sarek

In this week's Strange New Worlds,
I went back to Journey to Babel the

original series season two, episode
15, in which we meet Spock's parents.

This is an episode where the Enterprise
is ferrying a bunch of delegates to

a meeting on a planet called Babel.

They're deciding whether a new
applicant to the Federation will get

admission into the Federation or not.

And all of these delegates, Tellarites,
Andorians, Vulcans, short men

painted gold, all sorts of aliens
are onboard the Enterprise and they

all have strong different opinions.

One of the Tellarite delegation
gets murdered in the hallways.

Captain Kirk gets attacked by
a Andorian who turns out not

to be Andorian, he's a spy.

But Kirk gets stabbed in
the back in the hallway.

But against this backdrop of interstellar
politics, the thing that has our greatest

attention is these two new characters
visiting the ship, Amanda and Sarek,

who are introduced first as delegates.

And then when Kirk says Spock, while
we're around Vulcan, did you wanna

beam down and visit your parents?

And Spock goes, captain, these are my
parents, the original awkward family

reveal from Spock that set the pattern
for all future awkward family reveals.

Yeah.

And it, it is in this one that it
is established that Spock does,

has not spoken to his father.

This is the episode that prevents
Sarek from appearing in episodes

like Charades this week, in
Strange New Worlds, canonically.

It's interesting what watching it this
week, there was actually, the wording

is open to some some interpretation.

It is Amanda who says it is this
disagreement that Sarek is upset

that Spock chose to leave the Vulcan
Science Academy and apply to Starfleet

instead, dedicate himself to a career
in Starfleet, it is this bad blood

that has quote prevented Spock and
Sarek from speaking to each other

as father and son for eight years.

Rob: Let's get creative.

Kevin: Now, speaking to each other
as father and son is one thing.

So I think there is room if they
wanted to have them appear on screen

together in a professional, forced,
teeth gritting sort of capacity.

Rob: Wouldn't it be, wouldn't
it be great to see that.

James Frain plays Sarek in Discovery.

He's a wonderful character actor.

He's been around for years doing a lot of
sci-fi fantasy slash genre TV and stuff.

British actor moved to America.

And his work with Michael in
their scenes together was some

of the best stuff of Discovery.

Kevin: Yeah, there, there is nothing
that's wrong with that version of Sarek

that wasn't just wrong with Discovery.

Like all the problems I have with
Sarek in Discovery are Discovery

story problems, not Sarek problems.

I would love to have him back.

Rob: And that would be a great
moment of tension to see that, a

father and son talking pure business
and the family dynamic underneath.

Kevin: Absolutely.

Looking back, this is that third
version of Vulcans being jerks.

Both Spock and Sarek in Journey to
Babel are doing that thing where they

neither of them is willing to admit
they're wrong, and they both use

logic to justify their points of view.

And Amanda is caught between them.

In this episode, Sarek in a foreshadowing
of what we would see of him in The Next

Generation where he has that illness where
like it's a degenerative mental illness

and he ends up mind melding with Picard
in order to get through a negotiation,

and it is very powerful stuff.

But way back here in his first
appearance and only appearance in

the original series, Sarek is also
stricken with an illness, in this

case it is a cardiac affliction.

And the surgery to repair it requires
vast amounts of Vulcan blood.

And Spock is the only person aboard
who has compatible blood of course.

So it's that thing of will
the son act as donor for his

estranged father to save his life.

Of course he will, but when Kirk
gets injured, Spock assumes command

and says, look, I know my father's
dying, but I'm in command here.

I'm not allowed to relinquish command just
to save my father's life, so I'm gonna

be responsible and stay in this seat.

That, that moment of pure
rational logic of I am right,

you can't convince me I'm wrong.

You just think I'm wrong
because you are emotional.

That is basically what Spock
says to his own mother, and she

slaps him in the face for it.

So Spock is, along with just all the other
Vulcans out there, Spock can be a jerk

at times too, and was right back here in
Journey to Babel in the original series.

Rob: Awesome.

Awesome stuff.

Yes, obviously Mark Leonard impressed.

Long live the father of Spock.

And he came back and in the movies,

Kevin: Much more memorable in the
movies and in TNG I love Sarek, like

how much of him we got it, like it
is so little but how much he did like

the lasting legacy of that character
from so little I really admire.

Rob: Yeah, his work in
the movies is incredible.

That was my first taste of Mark
Leonard and to bring him back from

the original series is outstanding
and his work, especially in Star

Trek III and IV is wonderful.

Kevin: So yeah, there you go.

There are many kinds
of Vulcans being jerks.

They can be misled by Romulans.

They can be space racists.

can be just unwilling to
admit when they're wrong.

Rob: They just, they make baseball unfun.

So many layers to the Vulcans.

Thank you so much for this
little exploration into the

depth of Vulcan culture.

Kevin: Thank you, Rob.

I enjoyed it a great deal.

Rob: We are.

We'll be back next week with another
episode of Strange New Worlds.

We can't wait to see where that
leads us to, and we're getting

closer and closer each week to the
crossover we've all been wanting.

Kevin: See around the galaxy.

Rob: We send a thought
to Manny Coto's family.

And uh, stay strong actors
and writers out there.

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely.

We can wait for a little more Star Trek.

You make sure you're getting what
you need to pay the bills in order to

make this show that we love so much.

Rob: Stay strong.