Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

I am Rob and with me as always is Kevin.

Kevin: It's me, Kevin!

Rob: And we are here to talk
about Star Trek, to get together

with a dear, trusted friend and
talk about our feelings about it.

Kevin: There were definitely some feelings
in this week's episode of Star Trek.

Rob: So many feelings,
so many Easter eggs.

I hope Lower Decks are taking
notes about how many Easter eggs

you can drop in a single episode.

We're talking about episode six of
season three of Picard: The Bounty.

Kevin: The Bounty, and I was kicking
myself at the end going, I can't

believe I did not look twice at
that title and realize that we were

going to be revisiting Star Trek IV.

Rob: We are.

Kevin: In this week's episode
of Star Trek Picard we have the

promised infiltration of Daystrom
Station that we picked last episode.

And they well and truly
fulfilled that promise.

And while that little team, that black
ops team is infiltrating that station

Picard and the rest of the crew of
the Titan are pulled away and visit

the Fleet Museum, led up by Commodore
Geordi Laforge and his other daughter.

Rob: Played by his real daughter.

Kevin: Played by his real life daughter.

Yes, indeed.

And we spend a little bit of a little
bit of fan service time flicking

through the collection of the Starfleet

Rob: Look, it's a it's a
nostalgia war on two fronts.

Cuz not only are we given the feels
at the Starfleet Museum, but we're

given these little tantalizing
hints on Daystrom Station as well.

So it's just, we are bombarded
with all these Easter

Kevin: There's nostalgia on, in
both the A story and the B story.

Both of them end up in
a very nostalgic place.

Rob: Exactly.

So the Titan is on the run.

They've been given a little bit of
time by the sacrifice of Ro, and they

have escaped and they're being hunted
down, pursued by Starfleet, which has

been infiltrated by the Changelings.

Kevin: And we meet up with Worf and Raffi,
they all come together and the waiting for

them to show up is another excuse to have
some deep and meaningful conversations.

And we get to learn about Picard
having passed along, apparently, his

Irumodic Syndrome to his son Jack.

And the, the effect
that's having on everyone.

Rob: And yes, we, it was making
those connections strong there, but

also making us wait for that moment
of, finally, Worf being in the same

space as some of his original crew.

And, gosh, do they lay it on
thick and fast and beautifully.

We hear the wonderful Klingon
music played as he beams on over.

Kevin: It's laying it on a little
thick, this episode, I, have to say.

On, on first viewing, every
single one of them delighted me.

On second viewing, I'm like, come on,
you can write some original music,

Rob: I I think I did count
about 87 music cues in this

Kevin: right.

It's every time the camera cut to
another character, it switched to their

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or, Or ship or whatever it is.

They just hit it.

Yes.

I particularly loved the
just that reconnection.

You know he is not a hugger.

Yes.

I like this.

And he goes, I'm practicing pacifism now.

Great moment from Michael Dorn.

Michael Dorn's been given all the
zingers, this, this episode, this season.

Kevin: Sour Mead.

The Sour

Rob: Sour mead line,

Kevin: quite tart, sir.

Rob: Quite tart, sir.

And then the line about
pacifism and Riker goes, really?

He goes, I just said that.

Just a look of, I said it.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: and later on there is
the, is there a reset button?

Kevin: Yeah, they, they are
writing Worf exactly right.

And it's working every time.

Rob: It's a great joy to, and this
is what we've been hanging out for,

this is what we've been waiting for.

And done on a, on good terms to see,
see these characters back and connect

Kevin: Beverly Crusher seems to be
the hug committee, this episode.

She, her job on the ship is to
hug people as they arrive in the

Rob: she's outta Starfleet now,
so she's been given the right to

actually, share emotions and hug.

Kevin: I noticed like Geordi comes on
and he makes that very tongue in cheek

speech where he is like, I was trying
to decide whether to be super formal

or to give everyone an overdue hug.

And he goes for the hug,
but only Bev gets the hug.

Everyone else gets an implied

Rob: Tell you what, though.

Oh, LeVar Burton.

Is there anyone more in
line for a sainthood?

Kevin: They're letting him
use his eyes fully this time.

Rob: They are very blue,
obviously, but oh God, he's good.

Oh my heavens.

Oh, LeVar Burton, please
just stop being incredible.

No, never stop being incredible.

Kevin: Uh, I feel like on the
one hand I agree with you,

but this left me wanting more.

I thought Geordi's storyline and, his
concern for his family, trying to talk

his daughter out of putting herself in
harm's way and being upset at Picard

for putting his family in peril.

Like all of that stuff just barely
landed for lack of time for me.

Like it moved so quickly.

Geordi's arc felt underserved.

I feel like maybe they felt they, they
shot about twice as much material and

cut it back to the bear essentials here,
which on the one hand is a shame, but

I guess I'd rather be left wanting more
than feeling like we were wallowing.

Rob: Yeah.

And it's also a case of this is, this was
always gonna be the trouble when you're

bringing back like nine cast members.

And no matter how many hours of television
you're streaming time you have, it's gonna

be tricky to find that balance of everyone
getting enough time and or cramming

in too much in a short amount of time.

And especially cuz we took quite a while.

We started with just Picard and Riker
and seven, and there was that episode

two, which was just laying groundwork
and kind of treading water a bit.

So now we're at the sticky end.

We are where we're
looking at things going.

We've only got three eps to go.

Kevin: I counted Troi got all
of two words in this episode.

So of, of all of our cast, I feel
like they have all now been given

a chance to shine except for Troi.

So she is going to have to play a
pretty pivotal role in the last couple

of episodes of this season in order
to to feel like she got her due.

Rob: Exactly.

Let's go straight to I
think the, oh God, yeah.

I think the first one was the little
hints of Easter eggs on Daystrom Station.

So we got the Genesis device.

We got Kirk is there for

Kevin: Kirk's body.

We got the genetically modified Tribble.

Rob: Yes.

That looks very

Kevin: is almost an
Animated Series reference.

Rob: and a little bit horrifying.

As in completely horrifying.

And we've got a, I've watched the episode
twice and the linguistic grammatical like

vocabulary gymnastics that everybody is
going through to explain the fact that

they have got an aged up Brent Spiner
playing Data, I'm there going, oh my gosh,

they are doing so many loop de loops to

Kevin: Yeah.

I feel like it's all gonna be
worth it because like they would

not be going to all this trouble
unless there was a big payoff.

And my understanding here is the big
payoff is they put Brent Spiner back in

a position of playing a character like
Data in a way where his uh, just like

the rest of the cast, his present real
world age is explained in the story.

And we can get back to
enjoying having Data on.

Adventures with us.

That presupposes that this crew, these
characters are gonna continue on past this

story, but I feel like they are making
a investment in that possible future

here by doing this very heavy lifting
from a plot perspective to justify, oh,

Altan Soong, good scientist, is dead.

By the way, died off screen.

And one of his dying thoughts was, it
would've been selfish of me to put myself

in my, in the cybernetic body I built.

That would be bad
science and bad humanity.

That the line he says is evolution
is not preservation or conservation.

It is addition.

And so adding all of these, different
family members Soong into one body that

that can carry the line forward, that is
a much more noble pursuit, a much more

scientific achievement than selfishly
prolonging his own life would've been.

And I'm thinking, gosh, that
is unbelievably unselfish.

Gosh, I would not blame Altan for grabbing
that that last body and running with it.

Rob: Look, yeah.

It's a lot of heavy, a
lot of heavy lifting.

I, and we've been talking about the
heavy lifting of justification of

just a British accent this season.

So to justify the fact that,
yeah, Brent Spiner is old.

We can't do this without him, and also
we need to keep him interested, so let's

give him split personalities because Brent
Spiner's the quality of actor who couldn't

just wanna play the one character.

He goes, oh, you've gotta give
something challenging to do.

Kevin: But it's like I always say, Rob,
if the story is worth it if what we

get from the characters is worth it,
I will suspend disbelief all day long.

And getting to see Brent Spiner in
a moment shift from Data to Lore to

B-4 to Soong, and each one of them
landed, like each one of them, I went

you are instantly in that character.

You didn't even have to
tell me who that was.

It was instantly recognizable.

I, I was like, okay, cool.

All is

Rob: He's just, sitting on a couch.

He's just sitting there,
just whipping in and out.

Doing it on multiple
takes, on different angles.

Oh, there's no denying the
masterclass of a performance it is.

I'm just, that air of cynicalism
is with me no matter where I go.

But to have that joy of seeing Picard, but
especially LeVar Burton, acting his socks

off when he sees, and even Riker as well.

Frakes did a great job as well when they
see their old friend in this new form.

And just the smile on LeVar
Burton's face of going Data

Kevin: And Picard as well.

I'm glad they are
acknowledging it out loud.

The very first thing is we've
seen this guy die twice, now.

And A, that's weird.

We should say that out loud.

Great.

But also what does that
do to us emotionally?

Do we wanna go through this again?

Is it worth it?

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly.

And it's not exactly the
person that they know.

It's, it's a mixture of other presence.

And so that's an emotional
state for them as well.

Kevin: Once we got into that room
with Brent Spinner and we had the

reveal, it was good from then on.

The stuff leading up
to it, I had questions.

The idea that Data has been plugged
into the matrix to be the security

system of Daystrom Station,
questionable, even as a premise.

I'm pretty sure by the way in that
scene when they first beam in and Worf

is casually like swapping the chips
while the rest of the team is like

writhing in pain on the ground, which
was enjoyable to watch, just cool Worf.

But when he plugs in the chip and the
system resets, it's a woman's voice

that the the computer's speaking with.

But when it glitches, one of
the glitches I'm pretty sure is

Brent Spinner saying Thank you.

And so it's just a hint.

But then we get the crow, which
for fans, for like big TNG fans, it

was like, ooh, is that Data's crow?

There's no other prominent crow
in all of Star Trek history.

So I was immediately thinking
Data, but I don't know why

Riker would be thinking Data.

Like we got to watch all of
Data's dreams, but the rest of

the crew of the Enterprise didn't.

So unless Riker watches a lot of
Star Trek: The Next Generation, which

we know he does watch a bit of Star
Trek Enterprise on the holodeck, so

who knows maybe he's been reviewing
his own historical tapes as well.

But it did seem like just they, they were
breaking the fourth wall a little bit

there with Riker, recognizing the crow.

And then we have Moriarty.

And at this point I kind of went,
look, I am enjoying this because

it's silly, but it is very silly.

When they were setting up the station,
they said that this security system

was quote, breathtakingly lethal.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: And what we saw of breathtakingly
lethal was a holographic crow, a

Moriarty with a old fashioned pistol.

Rob: Fires live bullets.

Kevin: Missing every shot.

And not a whole lot else.

There was nothing very
breathtaking about the lethality

of the security system for me.

If anything, it was, it was
breathtakingly confusing.

Rob: Fair enough too.

Yeah, it was very much just
a spannering nostalgia hits.

Kevin: And so much of this felt
like it was there to confuse

the fans in the trailers.

Like we saw in the trailers that
Moriarty would be a part of the season.

We saw in the trailers that Lore
would be a part of the season.

And those things had been set up as
having a presence in the season and

their presence in a trailer, I think,
oversold them so that we were expecting

coming into this season that somehow
Lore and Moriarty, and who knows who

else got together and formed a band of
villains and were coming against our crew.

That's like what we were expecting.

And Moriarty, it turns out, was just a

Rob: Just a cameo, beautiful little cameo.

And a great work from Mr.

Daniel Davis.

Great to have you back.

Anytime to see him on screen is a joy.

Kevin: And Lore, Lore seems likely
to play a bigger part in the rest

of this season to me, because
he does survive this episode.

But I feel like Moriarty's appearance
in the trailer was almost more powerful

than his presence in this episode.

Rob: very much.

Kevin: And when you're putting
things in your episodes in order

to create a good trailer, I feel
like you're a little off track.

Rob: Okay, so we then flip
back to the Fleet Museum,

Kevin: I just gotta say, sorry.

Before we flip back to the
Fleet Museum, one more thing.

That flashback to Encounter at Farpoint,
when Riker is recognizing the notes and

then they give us just enough of the tune
to think is that Pop goes the Weasel?

Where have I heard Pop
Goes The Weasel before?

And they cut to Young Riker
stumbling on the Rock.

Ah, my heart exploded.

My TNG loving heart exploded.

Encounter at Farpoint, not
the best episode of Star Trek.

It's pretty clunky as a two hour
bloated introduction to this crew.

But that moment in the Holodeck where
Riker meets Pinocchio, is is pure.

It is pure.

I will leave it at that.

It is a pure moment and that
they like without warning,

threw us back into that moment.

Every fan of TNG instantly recognized it.

That, that was good.

That was probably the high point of the

Rob: Oh, and the cut to, very young
Brent Spinner just looking and

admiring the whistle of from over 30
years ago and just saying, Marvelous.

Kevin: My partner was very annoyed that
Riker completing the melody with his

whistle was out of tune that, that they
had so, so leaned on the fact that he had

perfect pitch in recognizing all of the
notes that he could not whistle in tune

with what had been established was, that
was a bit a heart of a heartbreaker, but,

Rob: And that's a part of
drama, Kevin, isn't it?

The heartbreak that, you know, you
know, and you recognize all of it,

but when you have to do it yourself,
you're just offkey just by a little.

It's heartbreaking.

Kevin: So the other big dose of
nostalgia was the Fleet Museum.

And while Picard and Geordi were
sitting together at the conference

table swapping fatherly advice, we had
Jack and Seven on the bridge of the

Titan casually flicking through the
historical archives and spotting ships.

What did you think of that,

Rob: Oh, of course.

First one up we hear music sting.

Music sting.

Music sting.

Music sting.

So of course we hear music sting
again of that sweet Deep Space

Nine Tune as the Defiant's there.

The New Joisey.

I just I don't, I, I can't say New
Jersey, I have to say New Joisey.

I'm not, so that must be a classic series.

Kevin: That is pure Terry Matalas.

Terry Matalas grew up in New
Jersey and the registry number

of that ship is his birth year.

So that is not a reference

Rob: that's not a reference to anything.

That's just for

Kevin: That is just a
reference to Terry Matalas!

You know, they do that in Star Trek
a lot where they'll give you like two

familiar references and then a weird
one from Planet Zenar VII, you know,

that was the New Jersey this episode.

They had to throw one in that we
didn't recognize in order to make the

university seem a little bit bigger,
because otherwise this Fleet Museum is

really just a collection of the ships we
have seen in the audience, and it makes

the universe feel quite a bit smaller.

Rob: I mean, but you know, the characters
that we have been associated with are

always there in those big key moments.

That's what Lower Decks is for,
to be there going the California

class or doing the, the odd,
the shit kicker jobs as it were.

Kevin: I did want them to at least
try to justify the New Jersey.

Oh, the New Jersey that fought that battle
or that was there on that fateful day.

They just said, oh, it's the New Jersey.

Rob: That's really good ship.

Uh, it was great to, finding out
Jack has a love for the for, for the

retro design, the classic streamline

Kevin: Yeah.

I'm not sure I bought it, but
I guess someone had to be.

Like, I am glad that they justified
giving us a long, slow look at

that Enterprise A from the movies,
because that is my favorite ship.

I too am a Constitution class
man, at the end of the day.

And I'm not sure I buy Jack being.

In fact Seven, Seven is surprised
that someone who didn't grow up in

Starfleet would know all of these ships.

So at least they talked about
it, but I, I guess the, The

ends justify the means here for

Rob: It is an odd choice of, so
it did seem a bit like, okay,

we've got this list of cast.

Who will fit in here with Seven?

Kevin: It could have been almost

Rob: Yeah.

Like, I'm there going, would
it been better to be Sidney?

Because, Sidney does have a relationship
with Seven and she's a pilot.

And there hasn't been, oh, there's
been a little bit of moments of trying

to build up some sort of connection
between Jack and Seven, but not so much.

Um, and we get to see
a ship from my movie.

We get to see the Bird of Prey,
as Worf describes later, with

superior Klingon technology.

Kevin: In the ring just behind
it, another Klingon ship.

And I believe if my research is
right, that is meant to be the

ship on which Chancellor Gorkon is
assassinated at the start of Star Trek

Rob: Well, There you go.

Kevin: I'm not sure how Starfleet managed
to hold onto all of these alien ships.

There's a Romulan bird of uh,
in, in one of the rings as well.

And I'm like, wow.

Not only are they like possessing
these these foreign assets, but

they're letting it all hang out
there by putting them on display.

It's like the British Museum
where they are showcasing

artworks from their conquests.

Rob: Up there going oh God, are
you gonna really make a colonial?

Yes, it is a col It's more of a colonial.

Kevin: A little bit.

It's a

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

And the moment that made me swell
up when they kick into Voyager.

And then you hear Jerry Goldsmith's
incredible score, just sting a little.

Kevin: Star Trek IV really got
me that the soundtrack of the

whale movie is so distinct.

It is.

It is pure Star Trek, but the
melody is completely unfamiliar, so

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: like, oh my God.

Instantly back in that film.

It was so

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

And Voyager did it too for sure.

What I like, we've seen glimpses this
season of Seven being a ship nerd.

She's been like working on models in
her quarters, and it's never commented

on, but each time I've thought that
is a strange hobby for Seven of Nine.

And she's got gold ships on her shelf
and I'm like, I've got some ships on

my shelf too, but I did not think you
were that kind of fan, Seven of Nine.

But the fact that she of all the people
is now sitting on the bridge, like

flicking through the fleet library it
like a nice little character detail.

Rob: in um, in incredible
writing an incredible performance

from Jeri Ryan as, as well.

If, If you haven't already picked up
from the months and months of podcasting

we've been doing, I'm a bit of a fan.

Beautiful lines like, Voyager,
she earned her name further

out than any other ship has.

You go, oh my God.

And he goes, this is where I was reborn.

And you go, oh my God!

Kevin: So much in so little lines.

Yeah.

Very good.

Rob: Beautiful poetic words
in such a conversational way.

It was.

Kevin: I love how non-cynical
Seven is becoming.

They're letting her, they're letting
her feel, they're letting her

acknowledge the feelings she's having.

She does not question it when Jack
says, oh, we're all just looking

for a family or a place to belong.

She goes, yep, that's it.

Rob: And that line of this was my family.

And you just go, that's ama because
especially, Seven's connection with

The Doctor and Janeway, those type of
and Naomi Wildman were, were family

connections, familial connections, which
she was, she lost because of her real

family being killed and assimilated.

And then her assimilated family.

So she's had this family
connection with her the whole time.

And it was very powerful.

A lot

Kevin: The Bounty gives us the
cloaking device, which I noted two

non-engineers managed to integrate
with the ship systems remarkably

well, remarkably quickly, off screen,

Rob: well enough, though.

So that's a good, yeah.

Enough to get it started.

Kevin: The effect when it first activates
and we see the cloaking effect from

inside the bridge, like Seven runs over
to the workstation and the entire panel

behind her kind of cloaks and uncloaks.

I thought that was amazing.

Rob: well done.

Yes, definitely.

And yes, there was a little bit of
that play of, I'm not putting my

family at risk, this is my family.

This, that, that whole talk about family
was a massive part of this episode.

And then, the kids have stuffed up again.

So therefore, the old men
have to come and sort it out.

And LaForge giving the, yeah, Geordi
giving the whole old man vibe.

Looking at Jack going, Hey,
stay away from my daughter.

What are you doing, slick?

And Sidney giving the whole,
Daad, what are you doing here?

Very cute.

Kevin: I have to say I was disappointed
because as soon as I recognized that

the episode was titled after the Bounty,
and famously that Klingon ship was

commandeered by a Star Trek crew in Star
Trek IV, I thought they're doing it again.

We have established that current Starfleet
ships are all connected to each other,

they're all trackable, so the Titan
cannot do what we need it to do here

Rob: on the bounty.

Kevin: Get on the Bounty!

Go on that bridge.

I think the only reason they
didn't do that is pro probably

they ran out of set money and they
could not rebuild that Klingon

Rob: I was just about to say, it's
a shame that the original interior

of the Klingon Bird of Prey was
actually an early 21st century bar.

Oh, look at this interior.

It's the same frigging bar we've been

Kevin: Yeah, that's right.

Hang a few knives on the

Rob: a few batleths on there.

It's fine.

A spinny chair, it'll be great.

Kevin: It would've almost been worth it.

Yeah.

Just the thought of them and everything
else that happens in that episode would've

worked perfectly with them flying into
Daystrom station, surfing over the

surface of it, and beaming out the crew,
the the team just in the nick of time

from that aging Klingon, Bird of Prey.

It would've been great.

I'm so sad they didn't go there.

Rob: The reality of the real world
coming in onto limiting you as a show.

There's only so few, so many
sets they've been using.

And so

Kevin: They do go back to that bar again.

There is once again, a, a need for a
stick stiff drink, half an excuse for

a stiff drink, and they're back on that

Rob: You can drink anywhere.

You do not need to just go to that
specific holodeck to drink alcohol

Kevin: Yeah.

I'm really mad at my dad, so
I'm gonna go drink in his bar.

Rob: So yes.

Will has made, is it the
ultimate and supreme sacrifice?

He sacrificed himself so
the others could get away.

And now he's been taken by Vadic.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: Who had a typical, had a very
cliched villain moment where um,

she ordered the death of one of
her crew who was insubordinate.

Kevin: Yeah, it was good
to see a bit more of her.

I am still enjoying her performance, but
I think the writing has gotten a bit thin.

Rob: She was very generic this week.

I'm hoping we get a
bit more time with her.

If we have more time with the character,
then we can get outta that cliched

Kevin: It was just very content poor.

Like the, all the stuff she was
saying was just, I'm a villain.

I'm a villain, I'm a villain.

And it did not advance the plot.

It didn't enrich the situation or, raise
the stakes really in any way other than

let's just reestablish how evil I am.

I will order the, shooting
of my own crew member.

I also noticed at the end when she appears
in front of Riker, and then kills the

two Starfleet officers, that tells me
that they were real Starfleet officers.

So she was posing as one member
of a three person security crew.

And then when she reveals
herself, she kills the other two.

The other two, they, when she
shoots them, they dissipate in that

same sort of drifting red dust.

That now I'm a little confused, cuz
I think we established at the start

of the season that the dust that is
left over from shooting people is

a sign that they were Changelings.

Like that is when Riker and Picard
come on board, Crusher's ship at

the start of the season, they go,
oh, have you ever seen dust left

over from a phaser shot like this?

And they'll say, Nope,
never seen that before.

Very weird.

It seemed to me the only explanation was
that is a sign that they are Changelings.

But now they're using that same
visual effect for people who are not

Changelings, so I'm a little confused.

Does everyone have dust now?

Or is the dust just, is that red
trailing effect just standard phaser

now and the dust is a separate

Rob: Yeah.

It is definitely a a glitch within
the continuity of stuff that there

hasn't really clarified that cuz
it has become that case of, its the

default effect for anybody but being
wiped out by yeah, a lethal phaser.

Kevin: Well, It's just like a set, right?

They gotta reuse the CG effects

Rob: They've gotta use this.

Yeah.

And there we go.

Reality seeping into our
fantasy sci-fi world, dammit.

They need the big Star
Wars bucks, apparently.

We had Riker dropped the S bomb.

He dropped a bit of a
"shit" while being beaten up

Kevin: Yeah.

He did say, he said, How much of
that goo shit did they pour into you?

And I am not sure what he meant by that.

Rob: I have no idea either.

Kevin: It seems to imply.

I feel like maybe they may have
shuffled the story around a bit

here and that Riker's line there
is left over from a time where we

knew more about Vadic's crew by now.

At this stage, there's
all still behind masks.

Vadic said something to one
of her bridge crew as well of

that they were half something.

I didn't really catch it, but I
get the sense that they're, at

one point they had revealed more
about her crew now than they have.

And I hope they eventually fill
us in because it would be weird.

It's weird enough that Riker
is commenting on this person's

biology and we don't understand
what he knows or how he knows it.

I hope we at least know it by the end of
this season cuz those baddies have been

wearing those masks for a long time now.

I, I better be hiding something good.

Rob: Are they mandalorians?

They can't take their mask off.

This is the way.

But yes, and of course it all
led up to the tragic, horrifying

reveal that they've got Troi, or

Kevin: or something that looks

Rob: something that looks like Troi.

You can't tell with the Changelings.

Kevin: I think it's gotta be Troi
because they just they went out

of their way to, to show Riker.

By the way, we're Changelings,
in case you forgot, there's a

lot of Changeling going on here.

These Changelings are
gonna get you to talk.

Uh, And the reason is we've got Troi.

Rob: And yeah.

And Vadk took a lot of time earlier
on to say, we need to find every,

oh, and what can I just say?

Amanda Plummer's pronunciations
of Jean-Luc Picard?

Kevin: Oh yeah.

She's insisting on

Rob: The Picard doesn't, not the hard D.

Picard.

To focus on her saying, okay,
we'll find out every single person

that they could, he could turn to.

We'll find them and seek them out.

So yeah, that so much laying of the
groundwork, it's gotta be the real Troi.

Plus, we've only got three episodes to

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

She's gotta, we gotta get her into it.

So I'm glad she's there, even though
all she had to say was, Oh, Will.

Rob: But re-watching it the second
time, there was a lot in there.

You know, it hit the nostalgia things for
me, but the, Worf finally arriving on the

bridge, finally Geordi getting back there.

I, there was a lot of stuff in
there for me to really like, oh

our God, we forgot to mention.

Finally we get to see Shaw show some
respect for someone in a higher place.

And of course, it's another engineer.

Kevin: Yeah, for sure.

He also, he gives like a nod of
respect to the use of the word burgle.

Rob: Yes.

It's

Kevin: Excellent use of
the word burgle, sir.

I thought, I thought that is weird.

Like, I don't know.

Yeah, it is weird.

It was very, it was a very strange tone

Rob: Yeah.

But

Kevin: But, but Shaw was okay with it.

Rob: Yeah.

I like the word burgle.

I'm going, alright.

Okay.

Let's let, is there some
sort of deep connection here?

If you can find that out,
Kevin, I'll be really

Kevin: Yeah.

I did not catch it.

Um, Seven and Raffi's reunion also
uh, like there were a couple of

moments and this, and it was very,

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

It was there,

Kevin: They weren't gonna
tell us what was going on.

I think it's just gonna be left unsaid.

And somehow at the end of this season,
they're gonna be, yay, everything's fine.

Let's get back together.

And we're gonna be expected to
feel good about it even though we

don't, we still don't understand
what's going on with those two.

Rob: Uh, they haven't earned anything.

It's, no, it's a nothing relationship.

Seven can do so much better.

Seriously.

But yes

Kevin: Even, even Jack understands her

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, I just, I love Shaw being
very it's actually an honor and they're

all looking at going, what the hell?

And how j.

Kevin: a weird day.

Rob: I'm there going, this is so cool.

Anyway.

Kevin: Yeah.

So the big thing that that
we pulled out of this episode

was this infiltration mission.

This, going behind enemy lines or like
going into Daystrom Station and the ship

they depend on has to leave and they're
on their own, sneaking into someplace.

And I thought let's revisit a couple of
examples of that happening in the past.

It happens surprisingly
infrequently, I think.

Rob: Yeah.

I've pushed the boundaries of what the
definition of this means just to fit

within my type of justification of it.

Yeah.

Kevin: I was thinking back
and these missions are a

little bit Mission Impossible.

And it is it is interesting to
me that Mission Impossible was

the other successful Paramount
franchise that came out of the 1960s.

In fact when Star Trek was canceled,
Leonard Nimoy went and became a regular

cast member on Mission Impossible.

Rob: believe he was, he became
the, like the master of disguise.

He was the one who was always the
lead guy who could put the mask on

and change into a different person.

Kevin: That's right.

He was like the Ethan Hunt
for a while, effectively.

And it was, I don't know if it's
because Star Trek would become too

Mission Impossible if we did too many
of these kind of like spy missions.

Maybe they don't want Star Trek to be
about spycraft, but knowing there's

a, a potential Section 31 TV series
coming down the lines, I do wonder what

would a spycraft Star Trek series be?

Because most of the time when
they do this stuff it's an episode

that gets my attention anyway.

Rob: Yeah.

for me, I'm always, I've got a love
hate relationship when it comes to

Section 31 and I'm there going, they
give it way too much importance.

So they're going, oh,
they know everything.

They're connected everywhere.

They know all that type of stuff.

Kevin: It's that tension of if Starfleet
is meant to be a force for good and

they keep endowing it as having this
shadowy subsection that everyone knows

about, and does evil things, then
how good can Starfleet be anyway?

Like there is an inherent conflict in
that, in that setup that the closer

you get to it, the less believable it

Rob: And this is where we get into the a
little bit of the fractionizing of that

whole perception of the utopian world of
where we are at the moment in society.

There is a hopeful future where we
will go beyond these petty things

of discrimination and violence and
poverty and disease and find this

pure world of, what we uh, deserve
to work towards and strive for that.

Kevin: It's almost as if that Vulcan
gangster was right, that utopia cannot

exist without a bit of organized crime.

Rob: Yes, when they start to
bring in that fact of the balance

of this and what sacrifices
have to be made underneath, it's

Kevin: it much less powerful
and inspiring as a vision of

Rob: There is that.

Yeah.

And that's a whole it's happening
within the world of yeah.

I'll jump across to another
franchise in Star Wars at the moment.

They're focusing in the Mandalorian
on the New Republic five years

after Return of the Jedi.

And so how the New Republic is just
caught up in the same bureaucracy

and diplomatic machinations that
making it not too dissimilar to

the Empire they just overthrew.

And that's a powerful comment, as they do
in Star Trek, on modern society and how

we, from one warfare to the next victory,
history is written by the victors, but

is there any real sense of good or bad?

Or is it all gray?

And that's fascinating sci-fi stuff.

But when you come to the world of
Star Trek and Star Wars, which is

that very clear black and white of
what is good and what is bad, how

much gray is welcome within this black
and white world that doesn't dilute

it away from what it originally was.

Kevin: Yeah, I think the promise
of Star Trek though is that

you don't need to balance.

That, like good can be self sustaining.

That if you look after everyone then
we can all end up on the same side.

Rob: It's very beautifully said, Kevin.

Kevin: But anyway, infiltration missions,
I did find a couple, and I'm happy for

you to bend the rules however you want.

Uh, at the end of the day, we're
here to have fun talking about

some old episodes of Star Trek.

Rob: I was afraid that halfway
through I'd get a Excuse me, Rob,

that's not actually what we set

Kevin: Not at all.

That would be not Yes And of me.

That would be very Section 31 of

Rob: Hence I love doing
podcast with an improviser.

Kevin: I'll go first.

The first one I picked out was from the
Next Generation, and it is season six,

episode 10, Chain Of Command, Part I.

Rob: Right.

Kevin: Chain Of Command, Part II
is the one that gets all the glory.

That is Picard captured by the
Cardassians, being interrogated.

There are four lights.

We get to hear the Cardassian talk about
how Cardassian culture has evolved from

artists to military industrial complex.

Chain Of Command, Part II is definitely
the high point, but Chain Of Command,

Part I is the infiltration mission
that leads up to Picard's capture.

Rob: And that's full black ops.

Kevin: Yeah, it's full black ops.

They are literally dressed
in black, head to toe.

It is Worf, Crusher and Picard.

They go on a mission together and
they are all wearing basically

scuba diving suits with backpacks.

And they spend much of this
episode training on the holodeck,

in preparation for the mission.

They're in caverns.

They're trying to beat their best time.

They're complaining about sore muscles.

Crusher is in Ten Forward
at one point saying, Sore

doesn't even start to cover it.

And Troi looks worried, and
Crusher says, I know, I wish I

could talk about it, but I can't.

So they're like sworn to secrecy about the
mission, even in their training process.

And then they head off on the shuttle.

They make a stop to find
out where they're going.

They sweet talk a Ferengi into giving
them the information they need before

they head to Celtris III the supposed
Cardassian weapons research lab.

It was interesting to me that they
don't get their briefing from Picard

until they are on board the shuttle.

So it's secrecy around the
mission is enjoyable to watch.

They spend all this time training
their butts off for a mission they

don't even know what it is yet.

And then once they're on the shuttle,
Picard goes, okay, you're probably

wondering where we're going, what
we're doing, and why you were chosen.

And they're like, Crusher, you're
here because there's a chance there's

biological weapons at play and we
need you to identify and disarm

any things that we come across.

I'm in this, Picard because the
subspace carrier waves they're

using is something that I was an
expert in earlier in my career.

And Worf, your presence on
this mission is obvious.

They actually say that, but
yeah it's very, procedural.

Like there is.

The scenes, once they're on the mission,
it's like there is the, scanning for

where to go scene, and then there's
the rapeling down a rock wall scene.

There's the phasering a hole
in a blocked cavern scene.

And there's the climbing
through a lava tube scene.

All of it is just very kind of like
professionals doing a professional job.

They've got each other's backs, but
there's not a whole lot of character

revealed through those scenes.

Rob: It's very much I was watching
it when we did the previous one

with a celebration of David Warner.

I was struck at how unlike any
other Star Trek: Next Generation

episode, it was before.

Where it's normally it's that episode
of this new anomaly or this new species,

something comes along and it has to
be solved or a character development

of cultures and stuff like that.

Kevin: A moral dilemma to overcome.

But in this it's very much like we
gotta get to there and shoot the thing

and get out and there's no talking

Rob: It feels very Dirty Dozen.

It feels very Rogue One.

It feels very much a case of that
World War II type of, Where Eagles

Dare or Guns of Navarone going.

All right, chaps, we've
got this thing to do.

We need to walk it out.

We can't tell you the information
until, cause Jerry might find out.

So we'll just pip pip, get your
training done and keep it to

yourself until we go on the mission.

Kevin: I think that's what part of
what I like about these episodes is

that they are a big change of pace.

They're a deviation from the format in a
way that so often in Star Trek, there's

a sense that no matter how bad things
get, there's a great big ship around you

and unless the shield percentage gets
to zero, you're not actually in trouble.

Whereas when these things, when you're
out on your own and there's a point where

a lava tube collapses on top of Beverly
Crusher and the rocks pour down on her

and you think, wow, she's getting hurt.

Rob: Definitely.

Kevin: So Yeah, Chain Of Command.

Don't skip the first part, I guess.

The other big thing that's going on
in this is like Riker dealing with

a new captain in Captain Jellico.

Yeah.

And it's really good.

Just the, it is again a professional
procedural, that nothing that that

Captain Jellico is ordering is actually
unreasonable, but Geordi and Riker

both arc up and go, this is arbitrary
change, and the guy's like on a

power trip, and we don't wanna adapt.

And no one is right, except
maybe Jellico's right?

Cuz ultimately he's the boss.

He gets Troi to wear a regulation
uniform and she looks way better

in that regulation uniform.

I don't know why she doesn't
wear that all the time.

Rob: I miss the tunics of Farpoint.

Kevin: Yeah.

It's really good.

The, yeah, the sense of we're gonna
see a workplace drama here in this

first episode of Chain Of Command.

I I really recommend it.

Rob: Oh it's great.

I'm so glad to have watched it for the
first time with our previous episodes to

go back to celebrate David Warner and to
find that first part and going Warner's

nowhere in sight but it's, yeah it's
such a step away from what the usual

Next Gen episodes that I had seen before.

Kevin: What's your first one?

Rob: I'm stretching it a little.

But I am going to, to my
default, Deep Space Nine.

We're going season five,
episode 15, By Inferno's Light.

Now this is right in the heart of
the early days of the Dominion War.

It's been going for about a year or so.

And I wanted to focus on what you're
talking about, like when you are cut off.

How do our characters survive
when they don't have that security

blanket of a ship, or especially Deep
Space Nine an entire space station.

And so this is at the
heart of Dominion War.

We've got the Cardassians are
building up their strength, the

Dominion are making their way in.

There's an uneasy alliance at the
moment between the Klingons and

the Federation, and we have some
of our heroes cut off, and they

are in a Dominion internment camp.

So you've got Martok.

Oh, we love Martok.

We've got Worf.

We've got Bashir and we've got Garak.

We love Garak.

Real Bashir.

That's right.

And Changeling Bashir is
back on Deep Space Nine.

So there's A plot and a B plot.

The A plot is focused on our heroes in
the internment camp trying to survive.

And their mission is to shut off the
shields, get through to a specific areas

so they could be transported back up
onto their Runabout, which is still up

circling the internment camp planet that

Kevin: I really love this episode
for that reason, just how different

that time in the internment camp is.

It's an unusual configuration of
characters in an unusual situation,

and we spend a lot of time

Rob: It's, it really where
Deep Space Nine really shines

at just how bleak things are.

Like the Cardassians are winning
and we see how brutal it is there.

Like Worf is forced to fight every
single day up against Jem'Hadar.

It's just for the pleasure of his captors.

We've got Changeling Bashir mixing
things up and trying to deceive things.

This horrible plan of trying to create
a supernova to not only wipe out all

of Bajor and Deep Space Nine, but also
take down as much of the Federation's

fleet as possible, cause it's uh, you
know, summoning them to this location

where there's gonna be a big battle,
and that battle's never gonna happen.

They're gonna be wiped out.

It's all this darkness.

And plus on top all that, you've
gone from a supernova darkness to the

deceit of someone in our ranks not
being who they are, to the brutality

of an internment camp, and then the
darkness of someone having to overcome

their own fear and they have to battle
it so as to get out and survive.

And it's an incredible performance.

Garak is in, in one of the
greatest performances of

Garak ever in that episode.

It's just insane of how everything
works together and how brutal they are.

So many deaths, like the Jem'Hadar killing
prisoners and going, I'll kill another one

unless you tell me what this is used for.

Then a Breen comes in and kills, come to
the Jem'Hadar, then the Breen's killed.

And, all, crew members and prisoners
are killed, left right, and center,

and Jem'Hadar doesn't kill Worf,
and so he's gonna be killed as well.

But just as they're teleported away,
Worf survives, but the Jem'Hadar

who saved his life, he gets killed.

It's brutal.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Then right at the end, Sisko
and Gul Dukat have a debate.

And at this point, Gul Dukat's
daughter is on Deep Space Nine.

And Sisko says, your daughter
would've been killed as well.

And he goes, she's not
my daughter anymore.

She made a choice.

And you go,

Kevin: Yep.

Rob: my gosh.

So

Kevin: There are a lot of, like
in this war arc, there are a lot

of kind of hitting the low point.

But for me, every time I think of how
bad things got during the Dominion

War, I think of our characters
stuck in that prison, cuz that's

when it felt most hopeless to me.

Rob: Exactly.

Exactly.

And it's true that, that Martok
builds up his respect again for Worf

and how he put himself on the line.

And there's that new align, cuz
there's issues with Gowron on the

outside and Martok comes and goes
Nup, I'm completely a hundred percent.

I've seen what Worf has done.

He has got nothing but honor.

And the fight that Garak had to do
for his soul, for his mind to keep on

doing this and how successful he was to
push himself beyond reason and sanity.

It's that whole thing of when
you lose, like we talked about,

all that security blanket.

The security blanket is gone.

Everywhere that we thought was safe
isn't, and the people we thought we

could trust, and there's a flippant
line at the end when Miles doesn't

realize that Bashir was a Changeling.

He goes, oh, I should have realized
he doesn't annoy me as much as you do.

Um, Oh, O'Brien.

Wawa.

So yes, that's what I focus on.

Cause the mission is there
to get out of the camp.

Kevin: Yeah.

It's not an, it's not a
premeditated infiltration, but

they definitely behind enemy

Rob: And each have their role, each
have their role to help each other out,

and how they get through this desperate
situation of when the safety blanket

of the Federation or your ship is
gone and all you've got is each other.

Kevin: I think the fact that the Dominion
War is such a big deviation from form

in Star Trek history means that a lot
of these behind enemy lines missions

will naturally occur during wartime.

And my next pick is also
a Dominion War story.

This is Deep Space Nine, season
six, episode 16, Change of Heart.

Rob: Ooh,

Kevin: This is during that lovely period
that you love so much, Rob, after Worf

and Jadzia are married and we get to
see stories about a happily married

couple in the Star Trek universe.

And in this one, Worf and Dax are
assigned because everyone else is off

on mission, they're the last two people
left available, they're sent off on

a Runabout to go behind enemy lines
and meet with a Cardassian spy who is

working as an informant for Starfleet.

His Vorta suspects him and he wants to
be extracted from where he's working.

He has a bunch of intelligence about the
presence of the Founders in the Alpha

and Beta quadrants to share in return
and its Worf and Jadzia's job to land on

a planet, hike through a jungle and pick
this guy up, but it does not go to plan.

Jadzia gets shot by a Jem'Hadar
early in the mission and is bleeding

profusely and Worf ultimately is faced
with the tough choice of, do I save

my wife, or do I complete the mission.

And the title gives it
away Change of Heart.

This is where Worf, for the first time,
puts his loved ones ahead of the mission.

He tries to complete the mission
and leave Jadzia behind, and he

can't bring himself to do it.

He turns back and carries her to safety.

Um, Terry Ferrell's work in
this episode is extraordinary.

It, on paper, it sounds a bit cliché and
a bit soap opera, but the pain on her face

and the way she tries to make it okay for
Worf to leave her behind is heartbreaking.

I've seen this episode many times now
and I watched it again today and it

still brought me to tears, even though
I knew every beat that was coming.

When she wakes up in sickbay at
the end of it and is heartbroken.

She wants to apologize to
Worf for what she made him do.

She feels like she should have been
stronger, she should have walked further.

And he says, no, nothing to apologize for.

You're my wife.

You come first.

There's also a great scene between Worf
and Sisko where Sisko says, it's my job

to tell you you made the wrong call and
a reprimand is going on your record,

and you'll probably never have a command
of your own because of this, Worf.

But as a husband who lost a
wife, I'm glad you didn't leave

her behind in that jungle.

So good.

Ugh.

I love it.

Rob: a great one.

Kevin: It is a perfect blend of that
sort of behind enemy lines procedural,

characters like operating without a net
in real peril in a way that feels unusual.

But it is character building.

It is heartfelt.

It brings you to tears in
the darkest moments of that.

This, for me is the best infiltration
mission behind enemy lines

story we've had in Star Trek.

Rob: Well said.

Yeah.

It's a beautiful episode.

And yeah, what Farrell and Dorn had with
their chemistry is just incredible stuff.

And yeah, there's just, done on just
a sound stage with, rehashed sets

and outdoor facades that they have

Kevin: same patch of jungle
from a different angle.

Rob: Again and again and again and again.

And that's just where, the craft of
acting comes in and how you can make any

space believable if you're good enough.

Kevin: I feel bad for missing it when
we were revisiting Worf's greatest

moments, cuz this is a real good

Rob: Oh it's a good thing.

We've been able to bring it here now.

It's a great episode.

Well spotted.

Kevin: You got a number two,

Rob: I do, I this is a different type
of infiltration in a different way.

After we talked about Tacking Into The
Wind a couple of weeks ago, we're going

onto the very next episode of that, season
seven uh, 23, which is Extreme Measures,

where Bashir has to go on a mission
inside the mind of of Sloan to, to get

the cure, who's from Section 31 obviously,
to get the cure for the disease that has

Kevin: Great link to this
week's episode of Picard.

They, in the conference room, they
talk about how Starfleet developed

that virus and then delivered the cure.

And it was all thanks to O'Brien and
Bashir extracting that secret from

the mind of Section 31 operative here.

Rob: out of the safety of their reality
and into the reality of someone's mind.

Kevin: I don't Remember any of the
details of what they found in there.

Uh, this sounds like a weird one

Rob: It's a weird, it's the
great William Sadler is there

as Sloan, a brilliant actor.

You may remember him as the Grim
Reaper from the Bill and Ted's

Bogus Journey, and most recently,
Bill and Ted's Face the Music.

Incredible actor.

Great actor, wonderful
actor playing Sloan.

Kevin: A very different character.

Rob: Very different character to,
to the bass playing Grim Reaper.

They Melvined me.

But you see those different
incarnations of Sloan's mind.

So you've got the one that feels guilty
and wants to apologize to his mother

and father for betraying staff lead,
and now wants to give the cure away.

But then that Sloan is executed
by the 31 version of Sloan.

And you know, what is reality?

What can they believe?

Time is running out.

If they don't get out soon, Sloan
will be brain dead and therefore

they will be dead inside his mind.

They're trying to find this cure
not only for the greater good of the

Dominion War, but also we've got that,
that danger of Odo is there dying.

And he's sent off Kira who has to go
and train the Cardassians cuz they're

liberating against the Dominion.

Which is a, a, a great thing.

Only in Star Trek Deep Space Nine,
would you have a freedom fighter who

was going up against the Cardassians
at the end of their seven year arc,

has to now go to the Cardassians and
train them to liberate Cardassia.

I find that hilarious.

But yes, inside the mind of Sloan, and I'm
sure we could cover this in, you know, how

science within the mind is explored within
Star Trek and all that internal stuff.

I've, we've had moments of that, like in
Lower Decks with with, certain characters

before they become hybrids and all
that type of stuff, like with Ruthford.

But yes, this is the, all the safety
net is taken away and the mission is

O'Brien and Bashir working together
and working to the heart of this

character to find out what they need.

Kevin: Is there a dilemma here?

Like Is there a sense that O'Brien and
Bashir are ultimately crossing a line?

Like I'm seeing the title Extreme
Measures, and I'm wondering are all,

are they at the end of the day doing
something regrettable here or something

that feels like well, this is the cost

Rob: It.

Yeah.

It is that case of, extreme measures
within the extremeness of war.

It's never a moral dilemma of
going, we are going inside the mind.

They're going, this is dangerous.

So it's all about the danger of
going inside someone's mind who is

dying and will be brain dead soon.

And we need this and the only way
we'll get this information is this way.

Kevin: That's right.

It's so morbid, like
visiting a dying mind.

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so it's and losing all that
that safety and security and it

could be, you need to find this
cuz if there is no hope after this.

And Bashir and O'Brien have that
quite humorous relationship back and

forth, tete-a-tete type of thing.

But to have them in this situation
and how they pull each other out of,

how they justify it to each other
is a good moral balance to have.

Kevin: Yeah, it's a good one.

We're definitely revisiting this like
final chapter and that's what it's

called on Memory Alpha, by the way.

The last nine episodes of Deep Space
Nine are called The Final Chapter.

It's considered an arc.

And it feels like we are mining that
period of Star Trek history pretty

deeply this season on Star Trek Picard.

So it's no wonder if
we're being brought back.

Rob: There's so much changing law as
reestablished and confirmed within

these final arc within the Deep Space
Nine Dominion War period, and so

much that us as Deep Space Nine fans
have been longing for for so long.

I think I've talked about
before, going, this is crucial.

This is universally crucial stuff,
and no one's talking about it.

And now, decades later, they're finally
not reinventing the past of Star Trek.

They're finally going into the
future of this future world.

Kevin: were the last questions
we asked that we didn't

Rob: Yeah.

And finally they're being, yeah.

What does this mean of going like they've
got this unstoppable creature, let's

wipe them out with genocide and a virus.

And then Picard saying, almost
offhandedly go, oh yeah.

And by the way, we have
we found a cure as well.

Okay.

So we're not completely the bad guys.

The moral line being drawn.

It's great to have that
finally be explored, whether

it be, 20, 25, 30 years later.

Kevin: That those questions are
still worth answering after all

this time speaks to the strength
of that original storytelling.

Rob: it shows, there are more
stories that can be told.

And through other characters more
than just the ones that we have been

mining for the last three seasons.

But yeah, so that was, that was my other
one bit of a divergent away from that.

But the mission within someone's
mind and the danger dangerous stakes

that, that raises really tickled my
interest to explore with this world of

black op operations for this episode.

Kevin: going on that unplanned
mission with you, Rob.

Rob: I, I love the fact that you
brought in a Deep Space Nine episode.

We talked

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: three this week.

Kevin: Yeah.

Don't put it past me.

I know some Deep Space

Rob: Oh, look, I do not mean,
and to imply that, I shortchange

you in any way, shape, or form.

Um, So yes, we are back next
week with episode seven.

And we're in pretty dire situation.

We've just found out that they
have got the body of Jean-Luc.

Kevin: We've definitely
got a ticking clock now.

Less than 48 hours to Frontier Day.

There's no more time for
deep and Meaningfuls in the

bar is all I'm saying, Rob.

Rob: Look, it's not a bold prediction,
but I think we will see that bar at

least three, at least three more times.

The final moment.

Everyone together again, having one last
drink, maybe tipping their hat to someone

who's moved on in that frigging bar.

Kevin: Yep.

All right let's see if we're right.

Talk to you next week, Rob.

Rob: See you around the galaxy.

Kevin: Ah, you did it to me.