Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Welcome back to Subspace
Radio and welcome back Rob.

Rob: It's a pleasure to
be back, uh, one week off.

It felt weird.

It's like we were on a mainstream
Australian television and they're

programming Star Trek on like late
at night and there's no regular dates

and they've, we've skipped a week.

Kevin: I loved the visit from our
special guest, Jason Snell, and thank

you again, Jason, for doing that.

But, uh, I felt a little, I have to be
honest, I felt a little guilty recording

without you, Rob, I was sitting here very
conscious that there was an episode of

Star Trek that you were being, robbed of
the opportunity to share your thoughts

Rob: Look, look, um, yeah, Kevin, we
are at that point where I can reveal,

you know, just a little bit of the ego
took a bruise when I'm there going,

well, they just can't do it without me,

Kevin: Can't do it without me.

Rob: and, and they're, Oh no,
we can bring in, um, someone.

Kevin: I was a little too quick to
suggest that I could replace you.

Is that what you're

Rob: And we can get the upgrade.

So, yeah.

Um, so not only did you find a
replacement, you went up a league.

So, um, That's fine.

That's, that, that's fine.

Um, uh, welcome back to
the gutter with Rob Lloyd.

Kevin: Uh, irreplaceable, Rob.

Irreplaceable.

Rob: Well, thank you Jason for joining

Kevin: Jason will do in a
pinch, but I'm glad you're

Rob: Well, it was a pleasure to,
to, have Jason in, in, in my stead.

And, uh, and you got to talk
about, um, you know, Peanut

Hamper in all her deceitful glory.

Kevin: What a series of episodes
we are going through here.

I feel like every week I am coming
to the table agog at how good a

half hour of Star Trek we have just

Rob: Well, well, Mr.

Kevin Yank, I think we have
come to our first impasse.

This most recent episode, I
wasn't all that impressed with.

Kevin: Oh, Crisis Point 2 didn't do it

Rob: Crisis Point 2 did
not do it for me at all.

I was a little

Kevin: That surprises me because you
are square in the target audience of

so much of what this episode was doing.

Rob: There was a point at the end
where I'm just there going, the big

twist that they did telecast in their
usual Lower Decks type of, Oh, I hate

those type of twist, uh, cliffhanger
endings, and they gave us one.

But that cliffhanger ending for me took
away all the work of the episode, and it

gave me that case of, what's the point.

Kevin: Wow.

Well, uh, no wonder we are here to
talk about characters who died but

then didn't because, I think that
is gonna be a theme of, does the

resurrection rob the death of its weight?

I think we're gonna talk
about that extensively here

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin: But let's dig into
the episode proper before we

talk about the twist ending.

Rob: Of course.

Kevin: Crisis Point 2: Paradoxus of
course, a follow up to the Crisis

Point episode that we had where
Mariner worked out her demons by,

playing holodecks with the crew of
the Cerritos as supporting cast.

In this one, it's, uh, Boimler who wrote
us a movie and it starts like something

right out of a late TNG era movie with
the Sovereign class ship swooping in,

obscuring the sun and saving the day
right in front of a Romulan Warbird,

one of those, one of those sleek,
new ones that appeared in Nemesis.

Rob: Right.

Everyone remembers Nemesis, right?

Right?

Nemesis?

Kevin: Of course,

Rob: Tom Hardy, anyone?

Kevin: The summary for me is that we, we
basically got two Star Trek movies, here.

We got the original movie that
Boimler wrote where Tendi got to role

play being a captain and realized
that she wants to be a captain.

And then we got the, the, um, generated
movie that the holodeck made for Boimler

when he, disillusioned by the death of
his transporter clone, veered from the

path and started following the nonsense
that was procedurally generated for

him by the computer, uh, which took
him to, some revisits of some, um, less

memorable Star Trek movies, I will say.

There were references to the Star
Trek V rock monsters that weren't,

on the planet of Shatanari uh, which
is like Sha Ka Ree but Shatner.

Rob: Right.

Yes.

Kevin: We had, uh, the Kitty Hawk
reveal, which was a replay of the V'Ger

Rob: The V'Ger and it didn't
make any sense whatsoever,

which, which Boimler pulled out.

Kevin: And then, just to
sweeten it all, we had, uh, a

cameo from Captain Sulu at the

Rob: That's right.

We did have the return of George
Takei and, uh, hearing that beautiful,

soulful voice, um, and saying, uh,
the calling his horse Horsey at

Kevin: Yeah.

The horsey is going to bite you

Rob: Want to feed the horsey?

Kevin: Uh, I really want to have been
a fly on the wall in the pitch meeting

in which they sold George Takei on
the idea that he would be feeding

a horse on the Kirk Family Ranch.

Rob: Yeah, look, that was,
that was one of multiple things

that kind of annoyed me a bit.

It seemed to be doing a bait
and switch for no reason.

Kevin: That to me seemed to be a reference
to the, the offscreen disagreements that

the two actors have and, and playing
that for laughs within the universe.

Rob: Yeah.

For, for me, I'm just there
going, if you're gonna bring

back Sulu, embrace that.

And it's, and I, for, for me, it's
sort like, you know, well done

George, for taking it, but it seemed
to be lessening his appearance, um,

Kevin: I agree.

It took me until the second watch to
actually like, listen to the advice that

he gave Boimler in his heat struck haze.

And it was actually beautiful
advice of how, how shall I put it?

The seeming randomness of death
reflects the randomness of joy

that we find in our everyday lives.

And if we spend our entire lives trying to
understand the the why people die, we will

miss the random joy that comes our way.

Rob: That is literally just what I said.

For me if it just, if it opened
on the, the futuristic streets of

San Francisco where Sulu was born.

He's got his, you know, apartment or,
you know, and he's just, you know,

living the high life and go as he
should and go straight into that.

It's sort of like lessened his
appearance for me by flicking

in a, a Kirk bait n switch.

Kevin: Hmm.

I agree.

Rob: So yeah, it's sort of like going.

Have respect for, for Sulu all right.

Um, for me, that was it.

I mean, he did get to say the line horsey
and the Horsey's going to bite you now.

Yeah.

But yes, and so all those type of things
that would have endeared me in the

episode, I kind of went, Oh, alright.

So yes, I did notice it's a movie
episode, so they did digitally

add in the grain and the, the
loops like film I there going, Eh.

Um, I felt Rutherford was really
frigging annoying this episode.

Kevin: Oh, you were on Tendi's

Rob: I was with Tendi.

I didn't think he deserved when
he just flipped and went, Oh, of

course you'd be a great captain.

Yeah, you do that.

I'm going, No, Rutherford you've
been a dick this whole time.

Um, and kind of takes away from

Kevin: Take a hint.

Rob: Yeah.

And also

Kevin: that your friend is, you
know, taking this seriously.

You shouldn't need her to spell it out.

Rob: The whole process of, uh,
a holodeck within this universe,

no matter how artificial it is,
everyone takes it seriously.

So that case of Rutherford so leaning
into, you know, let's steal the Australian

punk's outfit and steal his pants.

Saying really corny lines when the doctor
hologram dies and all that type of stuff.

Rubbed me up the wrong way.

I dunno why.

I dunno.

I've watched the episode twice
and it's, and it solidified

for me, that type of stuff.

I don't know why this episode in
particular, cuz I didn't think

it did anything outside of the
usual references and stuff.

Maybe it felt because they'd already
done it before, uh, sort of like felt

a bit more hamfisted as opposed to
some more seamless ways of doing it.

Kevin: Something I noted was the
things that made me laugh the

loudest this episode were less
funny lines and more sight gags.

The stepping over the black letter box in
order to exit the holodeck because there

was a movie going on on the holodeck.

When you watch it the second time,
You realize they telegraph that by

when Boimler leaves, he, the letter
box is out of frame, so you don't

see the gag, but as he leaves, he
kind of looks down and goes, Whoop.

And, and it is not explained
until later what that was.

So just that little attention
to detail delighted me to the

point of laughing out loud.

The other one that really got me was
when they were watching the Star Trek II

computer simulation of what the McGuffin
was gonna do, the, the side bars that

were there to make it wide screen were
the exact same side bars that we get in

Star Trek II we're watching the Genesis
probe simulation, uh, on Regula I.

So yeah, just the moment it cut
to that and the sidebars were

there, I laughed and laughed.

Um, but I don't know if that,
the fact that those were the

laugh points to me meant that the
episode was less funny in the text.

Uh, or, or if it was just
exploring another kind of comedy.

I felt like the characters were
playing a lot more earnest, this

Rob: Boimler especially.

It was interesting to see Boimler in
such a defeated, state of mind and it was

nice to see Mariner be so sympathetic.

Instantly supportive and always
played that whole hurt thing.

There wasn't that really, I
didn't get a sense of there

being this antagonistic thing.

Mariner's there going, What?

What's going on?

And so when she instantly
finds out, they're just, there

going nup Let's, let's do this.

So I really appreciated that.

Um, but yeah, to, to quote The
Castle, it was the vibe maybe just

was— Maybe I'm still riding on the
highs of, uh, of Deep Space Nine.

Kevin: The go back in time and
assassinate Kennedy thing was another

reference to not something that happened
in Star Trek, but something that

happened off screen around Star Trek.

That was the, one of the original
pitches for Star Trek II by Gene

Roddenberry was we would make an uh,
movie in which the, the climax was

Spock having to be the shooter on
the grassy knoll taking out Kennedy.

Uh, and everyone thought that
was a ridiculous and terrible

idea and it did not get made.

Rob: Well, there's a, um, a
famous episode, uh, for me,

it's the only good episode.

It's the first episode of, um, the
much marginalized season seven of Red

Dwarf, a great, uh, comedy, another
great comedy, uh, sci-fi show where they

come back after, uh, six, seven years
off the air with, uh, ticket to Ride.

Um, and, uh, the final sequence is, uh,
JFK has to go back and shoot himself.

Kevin: I feel like I watched
that, but I have no memory of it.

Rob: Yeah, It's, it's, it's the only,
for me, it's the only good episode in

season seven, which is a lot of hard work.

Kevin: Uh, I feel like I would be
remiss my journalistic duties if I

didn't ask you for a verdict on the
Australian accents in Sydney, 1982.

Rob: I was actually quite happy
with the Australian accents.

They were actually quite good, putting
them as punks, uh, I do that in inverted

commas uh, gives you a bit more leeway so
you can be a bit broader with the accent.

So, um, so it did come across as a
harsh bogan esque type of accent.

But, uh, yeah, not even the
thrill of going, Oh, we're

finally in Australia in Star Trek.

We got close, where Tom
Paris is in New Zealand.

Um, but, yeah, the accent was okay.

It was all right.

They only, they, they mercifully only
gave them like two lines or something.

Kevin: Yeah.

All right, so let's deal with the,
the rug pull of it all, that the, the

emotional heart of this episode was
Boimler finding out his transporter clone

had, had died for no reason, suffocated
by Neurocine Gas in his quarters.

And, uh, the reveal at the end of
the episode is that he is actually

alive, that this was a, faked death
so that he could join Section 31.

Rob: It isn't the Defiant, right?

It's a similar model
designed to the Defiant.

Kevin: I suspect we are yet to find out.

But, uh, the, Defiant class ship is
certainly an echo of the last time

a transporter clone went rogue.

And Thomas Riker in Deep Space Nine
returns and hijacks the Defiant

in the episode titled Defiant.

Uh, so yeah, it's, it's all there.

Um, I just, I guess I'm feeling
like reserving judgment to see

what they're gonna do with it.

But I have to say my
hopes are not super high.

Like I, I think I've had enough of
Section 31 and, um, the prospects of a

Section 31 based show do not have me super

Rob: They were, they were trying
to do that, weren't they, as

like a spinoff from Discovery.

Kevin: Promise is Georgiou, the reason
she has, she went forward in time

and now has been sent back in time
is that she is going back in time

in order to be the lead in a Section
31 show set where she came from.

But, uh, yeah, I don't know.

Rob: Giving us the show
that, that none of us wanted.

Kevin: What if Starfleet was terrible?

Rob: We can just watch Picard for that.

Kevin: Okay.

Rob: Or Discovery season one.

Kevin: Yeah.

Well, we'll see.

We'll see.

But uh, it did lead you to suggest
that our topic for today could be times

characters seemed to die but didn't.

Rob: Yes.

And leads into the broader spectrum
like we mentioned, of whether, you

know, whether this return in some way,
shape, or form lessens the impact of

their, their passing to begin with, and
ultimately, what's the frigging point?

Kevin: I feel like we need to
start and at the obvious place,

which is Spock in Star Trek II.

Rob: Yes.

Good choice.

Good choice.

That is a, a good starting point because,
you know, his, his sacrifice at the

end, which is, set up so beautifully
with the, the mantra that is sticking

with Star Trek to this day, the needs
of the many outweigh the needs of

the one, he put his, uh, mantra into
practice by, uh, sacrificing himself so,

the crew of the Enterprise could live.

And an incredible death scene where
you just see the sheer brilliance of,

um, Shatner and um, Nimoy at work.

Kevin: Lovely moments
for, for Scotty as well.

He's dead already.

Just colors of those characters
that we never saw any other time.

Rob: Of them holding him, the, him
and, uh, McCoy holding him back.

Yeah.

Incredible.

Kevin: I have this in my hand
here, this book called The 50 Year

Mission, the complete, uncensored,
unauthorized, oral history of Star Trek.

And I went looking for the section on
Spock's resurrection, and I'll just read

two quotes, both by William Shatner.

The first is,

"I don't know whether the Star Trek
series could have gone on without Spock.

It certainly would've been
different and probably not as good.

The Spock-Kirk interrelationship
is really the key to so much for

the way the stories are told."

On the one hand, lovely to hear the
acknowledgement from, from the lead

that Spock was a necessary element.

Rob: Why do I feel there's gonna
be a big but around the corner?

Kevin: Also by William Shatner in a
completely separate interview, I gather,

"Bringing back someone from
the dead loses validity.

I think that as a dramatic device, a
time warp does the same thing for me.

To go back in time is to rob
you of the essential jeopardy.

It should be life and death, and
if it's death, it should be death."

Rob: Oh, the many layers
of William Shatner.

Kevin: Yeah.

I mean, what ends up on screen in Star
Trek II is an ending that I think walks

the line so deftly that if you are, if
you don't know what's coming, you will

watch it and you will feel the death.

You will feel the loss.

You will cry with Spock's crewmates
for his passing and believe he's gone.

But, once you watch Star Trek III or once
you're told what's about to happen next,

you go back and all the signs are there.

Rob: Remember.

Kevin: The lore of of the franchise
tells a different story, but when you

look at what's actually on screen,
we have the very prominent quote

to Saavik, who has experienced the
Kobayashi Maru, Spock saying there are

always dot, dot, dot possibilities.

Um, the Remember moment of course, which
I was reminded last week with Jason who

talked about the season three episode
Requiem for Methuselah, in which Spock

wipes Kirk's mind of the painful memories
of his girlfriend by saying, Forget.

He, he does a mind meld and says, Forget.

And here in Star Trek II
it's played the opposite.

Remember.

Uh, which is a beautiful mirror.

And then the final moments after
they send the photon torpedo down to

the planet with Spock's body in it.

There are lines, he's not really dead
as long as we remember him, says McCoy.

And, uh, I believe the final
monologue from Kirk saying, If

Genesis is indeed life from death,
I must return to this place again.

It feels almost on the nose how clear
it is that they're bringing him back.

Once you know it is

Rob: Yeah.

It ends on hope.

After losing his best friend, after one
of my favorite sections in any movie,

let alone just a sci-fi movie when
earlier in the film, you know, Kirk is

there at the bottom of, of, of the rung.

And um, uh, Carol Marcus asks how he
feels and he goes, You know, there's

a man out there who I haven't seen
in decades trying to kill me, a

son that I never even knew I had.

Old, I feel so old, worn out.

And then at the end of the film, after all
this, you've got, you know, Carol Marcus.

You've got McCoy, you've got McCoy,
grinning like a Cheshire cat.

Kevin: It's so weird when
you think Spock is dead.

You're like, Why are you also cheerful?

Rob: And then Kirk says the
line, Young, I feel young.

It's, it's, it's clearly setting up.

You know, do not mourn.

We are leading towards hope.

And for me, the death of Spock and
his redemption is hard fought and

that type of stuff I'm on board with.

It's not, it's like, like I said, we
had to go through the hell of Star

Trek III that I won't watch again.

Kirk had to lose so much.

He lost his ship.

He lost his, we find out later, he
lost his respect within Federation,

but he loses his admiralcy, and he
lost, most important of all, his son.

He lost everything that was important
to him, everything that made him who

he was, just to get his friend back.

And as he said, and they bring it all
back with, you know, um, where Spock

says to him, Why would you do this?

And he flips it around and
goes, Cuz the needs of the one

outweigh the needs of the many.

And you just go, and then that carries
on, you know, he has to go through

two films and to get himself at a
point where Spock is back to himself.

So he's going through his own
healing process and finding his

personality again through Star Trek
IV, which is a wonderful thing.

He, the humor of it and the drama of
it, and it's always that heartbreaking

thing when Spock is emotionally distant,
like in Star Trek The Motion Picture.

It isn't until like he goes and mind
melds with V'Ger and he's smiling

and he looks at him and looks at the
captain and just goes, Jim, you know.

You love those moments where, because
Nimoy was such an incredible actor,

when you get him back to accepting
that humanity, um, yeah, it's not like

a quick fix and ooh he's back, now.

You know, Kirk especially who
made that choice, lost everything

and it's so heartbreaking.

Kevin: So you're saying.

As someone who famously despises
Star Trek III, the resurrection of

Spock is not the reason for that.

That is something that you
feel like they did well.

Rob: Yes, the fact that it wasn't an easy
thing and the fact that they took so much

away from Kirk and he like, because again,
he was sort of like, in many ways the,

the superhero that no one could touch him.

Kind of one of the reasons why
I was so annoyed with Mariner

at the start of Lower Decks.

You know, nothing, you know, nothing
would, would fix itself to, to Kirk.

So to have Kirk.

You know, do his usual rebellious thing.

You know The word sir?

The word is no.

Therefore I'm going anyway.

Um, but then you go, Okay, no, no, no.

This has consequences.

Real consequences.

You want your best friend back?

You are gonna lose your ship,
you're gonna lose your position,

you're gonna lose your respect.

You are gonna lose your
son, and you have to go.

All that hell plus go back through
time, find humpback whales,

bring them back, face trial.

You have to go through two movies
of hell so that you have your friend

back to the position where they
were, you know, two movies ago.

It's that type of balance.

I, I, I can get on board with.

Kevin: It doesn't rob death of its
stakes in the Star Trek universe either.

It's not a question of, Oh, we, well,
we figured out how to bring Spock back.

Now no one has to die.

Rob: Exactly it.

It, no, it's not just,

Kevin: It's not a repeatable, uh, formula.

Rob: Exactly.

And it gives, and for me, in many
ways, it gives that death more weight

because, Kirk and the others had to
sacrifice so much more to get him back.

So they'd lost more, really,
than they had gained.

They get their friend back, but
there's a lot that, you know, sure

they get a replacement Enterprise,
but nothing can replace David.

So, yeah, that's a good
one to start off with.

Cuz for me, I'm okay with that because
it's two movies of hell that he has to

get through to, to get to that position
where he's on a ship as captain with

his, with his, uh, number one back.

Kevin: Instead of going in chronological
order, I'm gonna suggest, because

we've started with what is perhaps
the best death and resurrection in

Star Trek, is there something that is
anywhere near that in terms of the,

the level of execution, the level of
storytelling, how well it is done?

Rob: Look, to be honest, to
be honest with you, Kevin, no.

Cuz the ones I've been putting down,
I've been kind of have kind of shit me.

So you,

Kevin: So we're jumping
straight to the shit list.

Rob: Is there any more that you can
think of that matches that type of

Kevin: Not, not really.

Uh, me neither.

Here's, let's just go back and
forth naming characters and

we'll see who runs out first.

I'm gonna go Philippa Georgiou.

Rob: Georgiou, okay, I
didn't have Georgiou.

I went a big, I went Data.

Kevin: Data.

Got it.

on my list.

Um, Hugh Culber.

Rob: Yes, Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was hard fought and,
and having to go into spores

dimensions and stuff like that.

Yeah.

And then, and then ages
of not recognizing.

Anyway, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, I got, well, Tasha Yar.

Kevin: Oh good.

Yes.

You had mentioned Tasha the other
week and I had forgotten about her.

She sorta comes back

Rob: Alternate version.

And then, uh, a Romulan

Kevin: on.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Yeah.

Elnor.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah.

I had Morn.

Kevin: Morn?

I forgot Morn died.

How did

Rob: Morn died.

He just like faked his own
death and then just came back.

Kevin: Of course he faked his death.

I forgot about that.

Uh, Jean-Luc Picard.

Rob: Yep.

That was a big one for me.

Jean-Luc Picard.

At the end of season one, I was sort
of like putting all the good will

I can into season one of Picard.

And it just went lower and lower
and lower in my expectations, but

I kept on going, It's still good.

It's, and, and by the last
episode I went, That's it.

I've given you everything Picard.

And now you just go, and now he's a robot.

Hooray.

Kevin: Uh, obviously Shaxs.

Rob: Of course, yes.

Shaxs died and nobody's talking about it.

Or when somebody does want to bring it
up, Shaxs then, you know, gets angry.

Kevin: You know, it is intended as a joke.

I doubt it will ever be referenced again
in star Trek canon But the joke they are

making is that there are, um, dark arts
at work in Starfleet where they can bring

people back from the dead when they wish.

Uh, and the less you ask about
it, the better for your sanity.

But that seems to me as like the
ultimate end game here, and this is

why Lower Decks does it this way, is
that if death is reduced to a minor

inconvenience and can be reversed,
offscreen, without explanation, then

there are no stakes to a death onscreen.

Rob: Exactly.

And like in, like even in Star Trek
The Motion Picture, when we have the

horrifying transporter disaster, um,
they are horrified for about 30 seconds.

But then, Oh, okay, well that gives way
for another Vulcan to get on the ship.

And you're going, Oh, that's uh, that's a.

Kevin: We're back to the
red shirt problem, Rob.

Rob: Yeah, exactly.

Kevin: I, uh, I kind of want to judge
these by their weight, like regardless

of, of whether the ultimate return
robbed the death of its weight, which

I think in many slash most cases
here it does, in the moment when the

character died, did you feel the death,

Rob: Cool.

Kevin: is an interesting question.

Rob: Uh, let's start with like
Data, because Data for me, Data's

death I do in inverted commas
in Nemesis, doesn't seem earnt.

It seems like they're trying to
recreate a, um, a Spock moment,

like literally trying to do that.

Um, and Brent Spiner is sort of like
flexing his muscles a bit going, well

if Nimoy could do it a couple of decades
ago, um, I'll do the same flexing.

Kill me off.

Kevin: Yeah.

This is a category for me, I think, is
that regrettable deaths, that that they

were written, I'm gonna say cheaply,
that's the word I'm gonna use today.

And that the audience sort of rejected it.

And the writers ultimately had to find
a way to backtrack it and create an

honorable end for the character or an
honorable future for the character.

Hugh Culber falls into this
category for me as well.

Shock death on screen, uh, used for
impact that I can only read as the

writers assuming the character was
disposable and that the audience was

not emotionally attached to them,
so they could use it as a tool where

the point was the impact it would
have on Stamets in the, in the series

Rob: Especially with Hugh's passing,
uh, with a lot of issues within

Discovery's first season for me, is
that they were infusing so many of

these modern elements of television
storytelling, with these shock deaths

and violence and gore and stuff that
has become commonplace with shows like

Game of Thrones and stuff like that.

So it seemed out of place.

And so therefore the
audience rejected even more.

Same with the swearing and
issues like that in Picard.

Um, there seems to be that type
of rejection of that type of

bold, cruel type of, uh, death.

And there, cruelty and death.

See, I've talked about a lot in
Star Trek III, but there's that

build up to it as opposed to just
a sudden do it for the shock of it.

Kevin: Another category of death that I'm
gonna suggest here, death and return, is

the, uh, having your cake and eating it
too death, which is that I think death—

In pop culture stories at the moment,
death is becoming increasingly like the

one thing that an audience will feel.

Especially in a science fiction universe
where so much is possible and like

injury can be reversed almost without,
uh, limits and that these characters

are nearly superhuman, the idea that
they meet their death is, almost the

only thing you can do to a character
that an audience will respond to in

feeling as it is an irreversible moment.

Um, it is the, in some ways, it's
the only stakes that we have left

in a universe where technology
makes anything else possible.

Rob: Yeah.

And in other shows they
do it through magic.

A weird thing, a lot of these genre
based shows are defined by death.

Like your Walking Dead stuff was all
about which characters are getting

killed off and how high the regular body
count is so you can't attach yourself.

Kevin: Yeah.

And I think at least a couple of times
that I can think of, Star Trek wanted

to have its cake and eat it too.

They wanted to try to use a death
to provoke an emotional reaction in

an audience, but immediately reverse
it because the show felt like it

couldn't get away with that death.

So the two I'm thinking of are Picard and
Elnor, most recently, where the entire

season of Picard is built around the idea
that Picard is, you know, meeting his end.

He discovers he has a ticking
time bomb in his brain.

It's this long promised defect that is
finally going to catch up with him and

he's gonna die at the end of the season.

So he is taking one last ride and
this season ends with, He dies.

Ah, it's so sad, isn't it?

Please cry.

Okay.

Are you done crying?

Great.

Now we're bringing him back right away.

Rob: Because we've got
two more seasons to do.

We promised this, okay.

You know?

Yeah.

We're not gonna, we're not gonna
just do one season with Patrick

Stewart playing this role.

We've got money to make.

Come on, we've got

Kevin: It literally felt like they had him
step off the set for 30 seconds so that

we could all have the moment of the death.

And then he is like, Okay, great.

We're done with that.

I'm back now.

Elnor is likewise, I, I mean it's a bit
more of a long running thing, but they

go into the parallel universe, Elnor
dies and Raffi is broken up about it.

And if anything works about
Elnor's death, it is the character

journey that it takes Raffi on.

But I don't think anyone
bought that Elnor was dead.

Certainly if they had killed him,
it would be like, what the heck

was the point of that character?

He sat in the wings of season one, got
nothing to do except one cool sword

fight and then they brought him back for
season two and immediately killed him.

Great.

Rob: Thanks guys.

Thanks so much.

That's great.

Giving work to an Aussie guy,
but then put him on the sideline.

Kevin: So they bring him back
briefly as a, as a hologram.

And at that point, for me,
the writing was on the wall.

It was, Okay, cool.

The actor's still in it.

He's definitely coming back.

They just first story purposes needed
to create an emotional journey for

Raffi here, and unfortunately, his part
in the season suffered because of it.

But when he appeared on the viewscreen
in the final episode, it was like, yep.

There that is.

It was not, Oh my God, he's alive.

So again, I'm gonna say just like
Picard, it was a death that was almost

preemptively reversed, uh, so that it
didn't really carry any weight to begin

Rob: No, and especially like,
cuz they invested so much at the

start about like the loss of.

You know, the Romulan planet
and the weight of that.

And it's so much so that it caused
Picard to leave the Federation.

So this type of weight of sort of like
this harshness was being brought in.

But there's no real consequences for that.

So, Yes.

Kevin: People from our list that we
haven't talked about, Georgiou and Yar.

Do they have anything in common for
you or are they different deaths?

Rob: Yeah, well, with Tasha Yar it
was that case of like, like I said,

that was the big thing that turned
me off, uh, Next Gen cuz I was so

invested in her as a character.

Kevin: And I'll be honest, it was, she
was so briefly in it, like the original

Georgiou is only in it for the first
two episodes of Discovery, and she was

there to be killed, uh, in order to, to
launch Burnham on her journey, it seems.

But I loved Georgiou as a captain.

I loved the Shenzhou as a ship so much
that, uh, when the Discovery finally

turned up in episode three, I was, I
was almost disappointed that we weren't

going to get that series on the Shenzhou.

Rob: I mean, there's, for me, issues
with, uh, Discovery one is like spending

far too much time in the mirror universe.

So they had that excuse to really
lean into the violence and the,

the shock value of killing off
characters and stuff like that.

And so bringing in that new version
of, Michelle Yeoh's character to

show her range as a performer and
how incredibly good she is at playing

evil as well as as well as good.

And then that arc of her
redemption in season two.

Kevin: That does echo Yar.

Yar does not exactly come back.

Just like Captain Philippa Georgiou
does not exactly come back.

The actor comes back to play an echo of
that character with a very different tone.

And it's the same with Sela,
Yar's uh, we'll say daughter.

Rob: Yes,

Kevin: Half Romulan daughter.

Yeah.

Except that Sela is not redeemed.

She is ultimately undone as a villain,

Rob: It's a lot like, um,
it's a lot like Dax as well.

Like we lose Jadzia and we gain Ezri but,
um, but it, Ezri is a whole new character.

And that's a whole arc at the start
of season seven of Deep Space Nine of

what this means to have the person back
with the memories, but a new person

in that inhabiting that body as well.

Kevin: Hmm.

Anyway, many deaths, several categories.

Ultimately, none of them as good as
Spock and, uh, I, I don't know about you.

I wish they would find some new
stories to tell other than which of our

characters are we going to kill this
season and shock you in the process.

Rob: It is interesting, you know,
because we are coming up to, uh, 60

years of Star Trek, and you do get
to that point of going, if you are

revisiting plot points or arcs that
have been done before, are you limiting

yourself from the potential of what this
franchise can do and what the original,

you know, statement of intention was?

And I'm definitely feel as if they're
hamstrung by what they believe

audiences want Star Trek to be,
as opposed to what it actually is.

Kevin: Because I do love to give our
listeners old episodes to go back

and watch, this one definitely does
not fit the brief, but it almost did.

This is Star Trek: The Next Generation
season seven, episode 15, Lower Decks, the

name sake of our new series here today.

I think because Lower Decks the
comedy is so comedic, this episode, I

remembered it as a comedy, but it is not.

It is a drama, but it's told with the
same building blocks of this new series,

where it is a story of some of the
junior officers on board the Enterprise

and how in their jobs they occasionally
cross paths with the command crew.

They get glimpses of a story that's
going on off screen, but they don't get

the whole story and they gossip about it
and they draw their own conclusions, and

some of those conclusions end up wrong.

The reason I bring up this episode
today is because it also ends

in the death of a character.

One of our lower decks crew, Sito
Jaxa, in this episode— She's a return

character from a previous episode of The
Next Generation called The First Duty.

Uh, and that's when Wesley
Crusher is at the Academy and

is involved in a scandalous
cover up of a training accident.

Picard in this episode, chastises
Jaxa, calls her into his ready room and

basically tears her a new one and says, I
don't know how you got on board my ship.

I don't have traitors on my ship and
you're never gonna amount to anything.

And ultimately the character picks herself
up and she tells off the captain and

says, It's not fair what you did to me.

And it was a test.

It was a test.

Captain Picard was trying to see
whether she had the metal to go

on this dangerous mission to, uh,
escort a Cardassian defector, who's

returning to Cardassian space as a spy.

She was posing, she's to
pose as his Bajoran captive.

And she goes off on that
secret, covert mission and dies.

And her lower decks crewmates never really
fully understand what happened to her.

Although Lavelle is pretty sure he
got a promotion because she died.

It is a heartbreaking, dramatic
episode and it ends in the, death

of a crew member that we feel.

Going to the behind the scenes
stuff here, I found a quote.

In early drafts of the script, Sito
Jaxa's death was somewhat more ambiguous.

Jeri Taylor, uh, said, When I
mentioned that to Michael Pillar,

who was running the show at the
time, he said, Absolutely not.

She's dead.

She stays dead.

That would undermine the whole episode.

So there you go.

They do know how to do, a meaningful death
on Star Trek, or at least they used to.

Rob: And, uh, in the exact opposite
to that, I recommend an episode

I previously mentioned that, you
know, shows that death means nothing

when you have who Mourns for Morn.

Deep Space Nine season six, episode 12,
where they do a whole episode mourning the

loss of a character that we hardly knew.

Finding out so much more about him
and then he just shows up at the end.

The quintessential, what was the
frigging point of that entire episode?

Kevin: Indeed.

Well, thank you for, uh, for the
stroll through the graveyard.

Uh, with me there, Rob.

Rob: Oh, look, thank
you for having me back.

You know, it's, uh, I'm, I'm,

Kevin: Were you worried?

I wouldn't.

Rob: You know, the, the, the ego of
a podcaster is a very fragile thing.