Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin, and Rob is not here
this week; he's on an away mission.

As you would've heard in the promos at
the start of the past couple of episodes.

He's interpreting Shakespeare's Aliens
at the Melbourne Fringe Festival at

the moment, and so I am very lucky
to welcome my guest, Jason Snell.

Jason, welcome to Subspace Radio.

Jason: Hi there.

I am your Peanut Hamper, I guess.

Kevin: You are.

You sure are.

Let's hope you don't turn out
to be a megalomaniacal robot.

Jason: Hmm.

There's a place where they put those.

Kevin: You'd be in good company.

You wouldn't be lonely is what we
have learned on Star Trek Lower Decks.

Um, Jason, you, you are known to me as
the host of The Vulcan Hello, a weekly

Star Trek podcast, much like this one,
although The Vulcan Hello is not covering

the animated series at the moment.

Jason: Uh, my cohost Scott McNulty
is not… It's not that he isn't a huge

fan of animated series, but he doesn't
love them like – and this is the same

for me, I think – in the same way, and
feel like we can dig up details every

week on animated versus live action.

And also there's so much Star Trek right
now that, quite frankly, getting a break

between live— We, we did that live action
run where it started with Discovery

and went all the way through Strange
New Worlds with Picard in the middle.

That was a lot of weeks of podcasting,
so we are enjoying the time off.

So we'll, probably pop
back in at some point.

Kevin: Yeah, we foolishly started a
podcast two weeks before the end of

Strange New Worlds' first season,
and so there was nothing to do but

to flow into the animated series.

But we're having a good time.

Jason: Yeah, it's fun.

Kevin: Before we jump into this
week's episode, do you wanna introduce

your Star Trek brand of fandom?

What kind of Star Trek fan are you?

Jason: I was born in 1970, so I
was placed in front of a television

that was running The Original Series
five days a week at 5:00 PM at a

very young age, to the point where I
cannot remember discovering Star Trek.

I always knew Star Trek
The Original Series.

And I have those original episodes
burned on my brain because I watched them

literally every day, Monday through Friday
at 5:00 PM and I had them memorized.

And then, you know, eventually they
came out on VHS and I watched those.

And then Next Generation.

I also am the age where Next Generation
was basically the show of my college

years, and in fact was a very popular
show, you know, when I was in college.

It was not a niche kind of show.

It was a really transformative moment
for me because I was thinking that

I, I didn't really know any big
Star Trek fans when I was a kid.

And so to go off to college and, have Next
Generation on the air and have it become

a thing that sort of, everybody watched,
especially as the show progressed,

because the big Borg cliffhanger, Best
of Both Worlds was right in the middle

of my college life, and that was when
the show really kind of caught fire.

So that was amazing cuz suddenly everybody
understood Star Trek things instead of it

just being me sitting in front of my TV
at five o'clock every day after school.

So that's my history, is I don't go as far
back as seeing it on NBC in the sixties,

but I'm one of those kids who, who was
exposed to it in syndication as the

Star Trek cult was growing and expanding
and all of that in that period of time.

So, suffice to say, when they put The
Animated Series on in syndication,

I, my mind was blown cuz I had
no idea that had existed, and

then The Motion Picture came out.

And that was also super exciting too,
in the wake of everybody learning

about Star Wars and talking about
Star Wars, which I also liked.

You couldn't be a six year old kid
and not love Star Wars, but Star Trek

was my thing, so I was very happy when
they started making Star Trek movies.

Kevin: You and I are very aligned, I
think, where TOS and TNG are the Star

Trek and everything else is, a bonus…

Jason: It's also Star Trek.

Yeah,

Kevin: Also Star Trek.

Very, very well said.

My cohost Rob usually covers the Deep
Space Nine, Voyager end of things,

which I know well, but they are not
burned into my brain in the same way.

Alright, so this week we are here to
talk about Lower Decks season three,

episode seven, A Mathematically
Perfect Redemption, the ongoing

adventures of Peanut Hamper.

In this episode, we pick up and revisit
the final moments of the season one

finale, No Small Parts, and we see
it from a different point of view.

The Exocomp who has beamed
herself off the Cerritos and

watches it from the sidelines.

I really love this, watch the
events of an episode of Star

Trek from another perspective.

It's not something we've really seen
before, and to me it makes the whole

moment feel more real, more tangible.

Jason: Yeah, she's commenting
on the plot points of that.

I actually watched that episode just
before I watched this episode and so

I was completely refreshed for it.

And it was funny cuz you know, she's
calling out all of the beats that

happen after she beams herself off
of the ship, including like, Oh no,

that big guy, he must have died.

And it's like, well, yeah,
that's, Shaxs dies and except,

you know, then he comes back.

So yeah, that was a fun change
in perspective to, to see while

still letting us wonder like, well
what happened to Peanut Hamper?

Cuz all we ever saw was there was
that thing at the very end of the

episode where Peanut Hamper is
tumbling in space saying Help.

And that's all we know
about Peanut Hamper.

And this episode tells us, everything
that happened between then and

now at the end of season three.

Kevin: Peanut Hamper is stranded, manages
to construct herself a life raft, that

can carry her just far enough to crash
land on a planet populated by birds

where she lives out several seasons of
time, falls in love, is about to get

married, and then some scavengers that
have followed her, attack the planet.

She saves the day, calls in the
Cerritos, but then it is all revealed

to be a long con, and she doubles
down on her narcissistic ways.

Jason: Yeah, it's true.

The only thing you left out there
that I wanted to mention is, while

she's constructing her life raft, she
creates her, it's a Cast Away reference.

She creates her own
little friend to talk to.

I just thought that was hilarious
that they threw that in there.

But then she, yes, she flies off and shows
her true feelings right in that moment

where it's like, Oh, I'll never leave you.

And then the moment that she has to
get out of there, she's like, you

know, get away, I need to save myself.

And that is Peanut Hamper in a nutshell.

Kevin: They played fair,
and they fooled me anyway.

They showed us at the start who she was.

They reminded us who she was.

And then they play out this long
episode where she learns the

error of her ways, she learns the
value of Starfleet principles.

Uh, she makes a selfless sacrifice.

And I was like, Yes,
Peanut Hamper, you did it.

You saved the day.

And yeah, they got me.

Did they get you?

Jason: Yeah, I think that this
is the trick to pull, right?

Which is, Star Trek is about people who
are good trying to better themselves.

And so you put Peanut Hamper on this arc.

The typical, I would say, Star Trek arc
of like, she learns a lesson, she grows.

There's a great moment also where
it's like, Oh, she's just violating

the Prime Directive left and
right, and then turns out they are

actually a post warp civilization.

So it's like, Oh, it's okay.

It's not violating the
Prime Directive after all.

And she learns, and she
grows and all of that.

And you think, Okay,
it's a Star Trek story.

And then there's the twist,
which is, hah, we got you.

She's not redeemable, she's awful.

This has all been a setup.

She's doing everything she can to try
and get Starfleet to come and rescue her.

And I mean, there's a, you could argue a
couple points that if she really wanted

to get off of the planet, she could have.

But the problem is she needs to
put herself out there as being a

hero so that she isn't prosecuted
for abandoning Starfleet.

So she waits.

Kevin: On second viewing, I was
sitting there going, So what

exactly was Peanut Hamper's plan?

Because she expresses surprise that
the ancient ships can fly in the end,

so the scavengers come, she signals
Starfleet, she's a hero, the end?

Is, was that the plan?

It doesn't quite…

Jason: Well, I mean, any good evil
genius will have a whole series

of possible plans and try to keep
as many options open as possible.

And I think, here, that's what's happening
with Peanut Hamper, is she's like,

Okay, I'm gonna string this out and
work these bird people on this planet.

And then she discovers the
ships underneath and she's like,

Okay, well that's interesting.

I can do something with that.

And the scavengers come,
cuz she calls them, right?

And I think ultimately that is the plan
that she has, is if the scavengers come

and I'm protecting these bird people that
I supposedly love from the scavengers,

and then I call the Cerritos, then I
am, gonna be the hero of my own story.

And it almost works if weren't
for you, meddling kids.

Kevin: Apart from the Cast Away reference,
I don't know if it was intentional,

but I had just happened to watch Avatar
a week ago, and the idea of people

coming to uproot the giant tree that a
primitive race lives in, in order to get

at precious resources underneath it felt
very similar in, in a hat tip sort of way.

Peanut Hamper, played by Kether
Donohue, speaks like no other

Star Trek character in history.

When she wakes up in the primitive town,
her first words are What the frick?

And it is the same heightened
comedy language that we get in

the other characters, but with all
the Starfleet pulled out of it.

It is a pure comic character.

Writing a whole episode around
this character lets us go places,

play levels of heightened comedy
that we don't normally see

even in Star Trek Lower Decks.

Jason: Yeah, the complaints I've seen
about this episode are mostly that

it's all Peanut Hamper and there's
very little of our characters.

And I get it, and it's not as balanced
as the episode last year, wej Duj,

the Lower Decks on the other ships.

There's not even that much of the Cerritos
here; they only come in at the end.

I am gonna be generous and say, you
know, once a season, if you want to go

completely off the format of the show,
I am happy to go with you, especially

a show whose charter is so broad as
Lower Decks, to do something like this.

And I can also see how people might
be like, Oh, Peanut Hamper, the

way that she talks, it's a very
modern person talking and it sticks

out in Star Trek and all that.

It's like, yeah, except it's a show and
it's a comedy and, for the record, I

also absolutely adore Kether Donohue.

And if you haven't seen her in You're
The Worst, it's available on Hulu in

the US and on Disney+ everywhere else.

And it is a raunchy sitcom, basically,
and she is one of the supporting

characters and is fantastic.

And what you'll find is, She
doesn't talk any different in

that than she does in this.

I mean, really, she's not doing a voice.

I mean, okay, if she's doing a voice here,
it's because Mike McMahan said, Just do

your character from You're The Worst.

Just do that voice.

She's probably not like that in real
life, I hope, cuz it would be a bit much.

But it is very much in line with
her live action performance.

She's done a lot of voices, but that's
where you can see her in live action.

And that's a great show and she's a
great supporting cast member in that.

So I love Peanut Hamper and I love
this episode and I was happy to get it.

I understand why people might say
it's not what was labeled on the

package, but I'm okay to give Lower
Decks one weird episode a year where—

I thought we wouldn't see the
crew at all until maybe a tag.

I was surprised they actually
did come into the plot.

I felt like that was generous of
this story that could have been

completely barren of the Cerritos.

Kevin: Other standout moments to
me, "Getting some major village bad

boy vibes from Raw Dog, am I right?"

I think that was my biggest
laugh of the episode.

Jason: Who knew a bird could have
those kinds of chest muscles.

Kevin: Abs, yeah.

Jason: Well, I mean,
birds, guess they need 'em.

But yeah, it's the shredded abs.

I read that as being almost a, it
felt like a Disney moment, right?

Where it's, oh, here is the beautiful
prince who we meet and you're

like, well, but she's a robot.

Is that…?

And it's like, nope,
that's what it's gonna be.

It's exactly what you think it is.

It's what it's gonna be.

And that, I like that.

That was funny.

Kevin: The acknowledgement that
everything, a sky snake, a sky

goat, if everything flies, why do
you call them sky anythings at all.

Jason: Yep.

That's the stuff I like
in Lower Decks the most.

If I had to describe Lower Decks
to somebody, I would say it is

a Star Trek show that is funny.

It's not just a comedy.

It does have character development.

It is both a comedy and a Star Trek
show, and they take it very seriously

as a Star Trek show as well, even
though they're trying to be funny.

And I would say they're
not— they love Star Trek.

I wasn't gonna say, they're
not making fun of Star Trek.

They are making fun of Star Trek, but
they're doing it with love because they,

like us, I would hope, have a sense of
humor about some of the ridiculous things.

As Scott McNulty always says in Vulcan
Hello, Star Trek is ridiculous, right?

Like, it is ridiculous, but
we love it and we love the

ridiculousness of it sometimes.

And so saying it's a sky snake
and it's like if everything

flies, why is it not just a snake?

And it's like that, calling Star Trek on
its own dumb premise is… I wouldn't wanna

do that all the time in every show, right?

That would be too much.

But that's what Lower Decks really picks
its spots and does a great job with.

Kevin: Anything else stand out
to you, you wanna touch on?

Jason: I'll just go back to the, I think
it's fun and we don't see this sort

of enough, the primitive culture that
actually isn't a primitive culture.

I mean, it does happen.

But the idea that they are not a pre-warp
civilization, where the Prime Directive

applies, because they decided that space
was dumb and they were gonna park their

ships and just live attuned to the planet.

Um, I like that as a science
fictional concept, and especially

as a Star Trek concept.

I was surprised that there wasn't
a twist there about like, you

know, we are behaving one way.

Uh, oh we don't have to!

Kevin: Let me open this tree.

Here's the computer…

Jason: Yeah.

And, and I actually have a question,
which is if a civilization— They

actually hung a lantern on this, so
we didn't have to think about it.

But I was wondering if a civilization is a
post warp civilization and then regresses

to a primitive, not warp capable culture,
what does the Federation do with them?

So they know, at least in their lore, that
there are other planets and that they're

from another planet and all of that, but
they don't have that capability anymore.

Do you not talk to them?

Does the Prime Directive apply?

It's kind of a fun thing to think about.

So I, spent a little time pondering that.

Kevin: The threshold of warp capable
civilization, every time it comes

up, it feels somewhat arbitrary.

It feels a little more
arbitrary each time it comes up.

Jason: Yeah.

There was a Strange New Worlds
episode – was it even the first one?

– where there's a planet that doesn't
actually have warp travel, but they're

building a warp bomb, basically.

And they're like, well, this is close
enough, where they decide… Because

the idea is, right, we just leave them
alone until they are gonna meet up with

people anyway cuz they're gonna travel.

And so that's at that
point where we intercede.

Anyway, it's a very nerdy Star
Trek question about an episode that

is, I think, very knowledgeably
not addressing it, right?

They bring it up and then
like, but it doesn't matter.

And then they move on with
the jokes they want to tell.

Kevin: Because I'm an old softie, the
thing that I picked this week for us to

springboard off of into Star Trek history
was the idea of a member of Starfleet,

falling in love with a alien of the week.

And this is something that occurred to me.

It's happened just often enough that it's
perfectly sized for our little show, here.

And so I've collected
a few examples of this.

Have you got a couple as well, Jason?

Jason: Yeah, I had to stop myself
after I came up with five off the…

Kevin: Wow!

Okay.

Might have to do a lightning
round at the end, here.

So the way we do this is we start with The
Original Series and work our way forward.

I do have something from
The Original Series.

I imagine you do as well.

Do you wanna go first?

Jason: Okay.

You know how when Strange New Worlds came
out, one of the things that they used

as a touchstone was Captain Kirk falls
in love with Edith Keeler, and then she

dies, and next week everything is fine.

What I always think about when
people talk about the Edith Keeler

thing, which is, you know, that's
one of my favorite episodes.

It's everybody's favorite episode,
City on the Edge of Forever.

It's a classic.

And it's really tragic at the end of it.

But what I think about is a not good
episode of Star Trek The Original Series,

where something similar, where Captain
Kirk falls in love at the drop of a hat.

And it's Requiem for Methuselah,

Kevin: Oh wow.

Jason: which is an episode where they
beam down to a planet and there's

like a guy and his daughter, and
Kirk immediately falls in love with

the daughter cuz she's beautiful.

And although I really am a defender
of, you know, there was that essay

about how people think of Captain
Kirk as this womanizing guy.

And although he fell in love a lot, it
was emotional and he was emotionally

disturbed when Edith Keeler died.

And he wasn't quite how he gets portrayed.

However, in Requiem for Methuselah,
he immediately falls in love with

this girl who… She turned out
to be a robot, is that right?

I think.

Kevin: That sounds right to me.

She's very unemotional and then it all
makes sense she's revealed to be an…

Jason: She's an android that's been
created by Flint as a companion.

Flint is an immortal being who has lived
many lives on Earth and then in space.

He's been DaVinci and Gutenberg and
I forget who else, and so I just, I

love that episode cuz yeah, Captain
Kirk falls in love with an Android

lady, and he falls hard, and at the
end of the episode he's so upset

that she's— Like Edith Keeler, right?

But nobody ever mentions, What if Rayna?

Why didn't they worry about her?

Because it doesn't make any sense
that he falls in love with her, except

that the script says that he does.

Cause I mean she's pretty and
all, but she is just a … a robot.

Kevin: Kirk did not need a mind
meld from Spock in order to get

over Edith Keeler, but that's what…

Jason: Yeah, that's right.

That gets conflated a lot too, where
people are like, Oh yeah, I remember

Spock made him forget about Edith Keeler?

It's like, no, that was the robot lady!

So that's, my first
one, is little deep cut.

Scott and I watched that one for his other
Star Trek podcast, Random Trek, and if

you haven't seen it in a while, cuz this
is one of the ones that I don't revisit

and watching it, it's like, wow, like,
it's so good as a bad Star Trek episode.

There's so many strange things about
it, um, about the art direction.

They have like a lot of weird
plastic silverware and stuff.

But it, it doesn't make any sense at all.

Not a lick of sense.

Kevin: I just remember really wanting
that little model starship, that

Flint shrinks the Enterprise down,
to hold the whole crew hostage.

Yeah, that looked great on his table.

Jason: Yep.

Yep.

It's good stuff.

Anyway, yeah, that's a very weird episode.

The Kirk stuff in it makes no sense.

He falls in love with the
Android and that's it.

Kevin: Season three, episode
21 of The Original Series.

So the dying embers of the show.

They knew they were
canceled by this point.

Jason: Yeah.

As a season three, it's actually not, I
think not among the worst of season three.

It's watchable.

It's completely watchable.

It's just dumb.

Kevin: I've got another season three.

I am going to take us to, for the world
is hollow, and I have touched the sky.

Jason: Yeah.

Kevin: Dr.

McCoy discovers he is, afflicted with
a terminal illness, has months to live,

and coincidentally meets the beautiful
Natira, the high priestess of this

flying generation ship that thinks it's
a planet and is disguised as an asteroid,

and falls instantly in love as well,
as they did in the sixties, it seems.

Although in this case it is Natira
who professes her feelings first.

I am pretty sure they have had
zero lines of dialogue with each

other at the moment she chooses to
profess her undying love for him.

Jason: Love at first sight.

Yeah, this is— What's cool about
this episode, again, as somebody

who watched it in syndication, is
they kind of do a pretty good job of

selling you that they're writing Dr.

McCoy out of the

Kevin: Yeah I remember feeling,
my favorite character is…

Jason: Yeah, it's like Dr.

McCoy, well he's leaving.

And he's actually dying.

And it's like, Oh, okay,
well then this is the end.

That's a wrap for DeForest Kelley.

And then they're like, No.

Oh, he's, he's going.

He's fine.

It's fine.

Kevin: Yeah.

Jason: But they really do sell it for
a long time as McCoy is outta here.

Kevin: In a way that they
didn't do at those times.

Like it's a taste of serialization,
um, in the storytelling.

And it enriches McCoy's
character immensely.

I think this is the richest McCoy
story we get in The Original Series.

Jason: Yeah, yeah.

The one, the only one that might
have been as good would've been The

Way to Eden, another bad episode.

But that was supposed to be, it ended
up being like Chekov's sister or

girlfriend or something, but it was
supposed to be McCoy's daughter Joanna.

And that was like, they had a whole
plan and then they changed the script

and McCoy didn't get that, but he
did get For the World is Hollow.

Kevin: Some beautiful lines, like I'm
on a collision course myself here,

Jim, when he is describing his reasons
for staying behind, like seeing a

character basically saying, Look,
this is all the time I have left.

There's some great Chapel
moments in this episode as well.

Now that we're getting to know a
new Chapel in Strange New Worlds,

those few character beats she was
given way back then, they shine

brighter for me now on rewatch.

She's the one twisting McCoy's
arm into letting Kirk in and

letting him know what's going on.

And she's the one in the transporter
room saying, A lot can happen in a year.

Give yourself every moment.

Some great, great lines for a very
underserved character in this one.

Jason: Yeah, definitely.

Kevin: Where to next?

Jason,

Jason: Well, I'm gonna skip over
the other three third season

TOS episodes I have in my…

Kevin: You wanna mention them briefly?

Jason: Yeah, why don't we do it now?

I don't know what it
was with season three.

They were flopping around.

Um, I just added, cuz you mentioned it,
the almost same plot as For the World is

Hollow, which is The Paradise Syndrome.

Except there Kirk, Kirk has amnesia.

And this is the planet of the
Native Americans, essentially.

And it's unclear.

They're like, Oh, some aliens took some
Native Americans and dropped them here.

Like, okay, alright.

So he falls in love with Miramanee,
and she's gonna have his baby.

And this one takes place over months,
actually, which is another cool

thing where Kirk is gone for months.

Kevin: Unusually epic.

Jason: But the reason is
so she can be pregnant.

And then she, does she die at the end?

Kevin: Yeah,

Jason: Yeah, I mean, that makes it easier.

Spock's gotta be like, how many
times I gotta make this guy forget?

Um, I wanted to throw in All Our
Yesterdays, where Spock falls in

love with Zarabeth, Mariette Hartley.

She looks human, but you know, Spock's not
so, uh, it counts as an alien of the week.

Uh, and one of the star Trek
novels in the eighties, A.

C.

Crispin wrote Yesterday's Son, which is
a sequel to this, where they go back to

this icy, back-in-time planet, and it
turns out that there is a Vulcan-human

hybrid character who is Spock's son,
who has survived All Our Yesterdays.

But I always liked that episode.

Well, I don't like the witch
trial part of it, but the icy part

of it with Spock, I think is a…

Kevin: Yeah.

They go through the portals and you get
kind of vignette sized visits to places.

Jason: It's a doomed planet, but
they flee into their own history.

It's kind of cool.

Mr.

Atoz, A to Z, the librarian is there.

And then the other one from season
three is The Enterprise Incident.

Speaking of Spock, where Spock, uh,
actually it's kind of a fake out, like

Peanut Hamper, Spock sweet talks the
Romulan commander and, then betrays her.

But that's actually a fun episode too.

Kevin: A Vulcan seduction
is, interesting to see.

Way back then.

Yeah, absolutely.

Jason: All right.

Uh, you want my, uh,
moving forward in history.

Kevin: Yeah, I've got something
from TNG, but I bet you do too.

Jason: OK, I was torn because there
were two kind of "social issues"

episodes of TNG that involved a main
character from the show and a romantic

relationship with an alien of the week.

And the one I'm gonna pick is The
Host, which is season four, episode 23.

This actually introduces the concept
of the Trill, and Trill symbionts.

But the way it does it, and the reason
that the tri are the way they are, is

so that they can have Beverly falls
in love with a Trill ambassador.

The host body is killed.

They implant his symbiont in Riker.

Riker, who is suffering mightily
from "Trill syndrome" saves the

day while he's basically dying and
they're concerned he is gonna die.

But in a last minute reveal, they've
sent a new Trill host and the

symbiont is saved and Riker is saved,
and the new Trill host is a woman.

And Beverly has that moment
where she's like, Mmmmm…

Kevin: I'm out.

Jason: No, I can't, I can't make it work.

But that was, you could see how they
plotted that and they were like, Aha.

And then here's the twist at the end
is, it's a question of like, are you

still you if it's, if the gender is
different and how will she react?

And, and she basically, it's like
there's a Doctor Who comedy sketch

that is very similar, which is, Face
it Doctor, you're literally not the

man I fell in love with, because into
Joanna Lumley, I think, at that point.

So, that's basically what happens
with Crusher in this is like,

Yeah, uh, I feel for you, but
you're a girl now, so m-mm, no.

Bye.

Kevin: Yeah, they revisit the same sort
of setup years later in a memorable

episode of DS9 with Dax and go the other
way and go, Yeah, I can work with this.

Jason: Well, I mean, it's essentially
them saying, Okay, we did it wrong,

let's, let's, let's think about this.

But it is funny to think about that.

The whole concept of the Trill,
which has been – this is the

beauty of Star Trek, right?

– is that you take this little foundational
piece and you build on it and build on

it and build on it, and they're still
doing it even with Discovery, right?

They keep building on it.

But it was a plot device, to create this
episode where Riker has to be bonded

with a weird symbiotic creature, and
Beverly has to struggle with her feelings.

And then the, the symbiont being
placed in a woman at the end is

almost like just a Star Trek tip of
the cap to, we can't have our main

characters in long term relationships,
so this is how we're gonna solve it.

Kevin: This is how Star Trek
has changed over the decades.

Back in TOS, Star Trek
didn't have this rich lore.

It had to imply it.

And now we do have the rich lore.

Like, you can write a moment about
the Prime Directive and it pulls

forward everything we've learned
about warp being that moment for

civilizations to come into the galaxy.

Um, it's what keeps us watching, I think.

But it hasn't always
been what Star Trek had.

Jason: Right.

Kevin: TNG season seven, episode 14, I'm
sorry to do it, but I have to bring it up.

Sub Rosa

Jason: Ooooooh ghosts!

Space romance … ghosts.

Kevin: In this episode, again
Crusher is the subject of a

seduction by an anaphasic life form,

Jason: Mm-hmm.

It's a ghost.

Kevin: That kind of life form
has gotten a mention in Lower

Decks this season already.

Tendi worried that Rutherford had
been taken over by an anaphasic

life form when he was in a coma.

But yes, in this, uh, it is the ghost
that every woman in the Crusher family.

Has fallen in love with over the
generations, and is currently

living on Planet Scotland, where
Crusher visits the funeral of her

Nana at the start of the episode.

This episode is reviled, I think,
because it just involves a lot

of scenes of Crusher, writhing in
ecstasy from an invisible ghost.

But on rewatch, what this doesn't
get credit for is giving us that

moment of Crusher deciding to walk
away from Starfleet, and Picard

standing in the transporter room
saying, I'm not gonna let you go.

And she's like, Are
you holding me hostage?

And he has to let her go.

Seven seasons in this relationship
is rich enough that they can stare at

each other across the transporter room.

And Picard can know something is
wrong with you, Beverly Crusher.

Walking away from this is not you.

That sequence of events of Crusher's
leaving and therefore we know

something's wrong with Crusher is fun.

It's a sweet twist in a
bumpy episode, for sure.

Jason: Yeah, I hate this episode
so much, but um, uh, you're, does

fit the premise of what about.

I'll put it that way.

Kevin: All right.

Accepted.

Jason: I have one extra that I'll throw
out there as my bonus, which is season

five, episode 17 of TNG, The Outcast.

This again, trying to deal with issues.

Riker falls in love with a character
from an androgynous race that finds

gender presentation to be anathema.

And so it is meant to be a gay rights
parable; I think it's basically bungled.

They cast Melinda Culea from The A-Team
as the genderless, yet strangely female

so Riker can fall in love with her without
anybody feeling creepy about it, alien

and, uh, I don't think it really works.

Uh, I see what they're going for,

Kevin: The best of intentions, you
watch it and you want to give it

the win, but it doesn't earn it.

Jason: It does not earn it.

But it's a similar thing where the
episode, the reason I bring it up

especially, is the falling in love with
an alien is the point of the episode.

It is absolutely the entire
reason the episode exists.

Kevin: Yeah.

It gets to me as well, like it is sad that
it is saddled with that weight of social

issue because, the story itself is sweet.

Watching this couple have their
meet-cute and believably fall for each

other, and Riker have to fight for – I
just went to say fight for her, which

is the whole problem – before they
get reprogrammed by their society.

Like it is a lean-forward episode.

It gets me.

But yeah, it doesn't quite
work at what it's trying to do.

My bonus is a Voyager
episode, if you will.

Season five, episode 17, The Disease,
which is a Harry Kim love story.

What do you think of
Harry Kim, Jason Snell?

Jason: I don't hate him.

I don't think he was particularly
well served; I think he's

kind of a boring character.

I mean, just overarching my feeling about
Voyager is Voyager is a show that, I don't

even wanna say it was ill conceived, but
it seems like they made a lot of initial

conceptions of what it was going to be.

It feels very much like a show where
they had like a whole basic thing laid

out, characters, premise, and then
like handed it over to someone else

and walked away, it feels like to me.

Where it's like Voyager seems to spend
a lot of time having to live down a lot

of very early decisions that it made.

Harry Kim, should he have not been there?

Should they have done more with him?

Something.

But unlike some of the other
characters, where they seemed to put

an effort into sort of like branching
them out, I felt like Harry Kim

just sort of never went anywhere.

And it doesn't help that my favorite
episode of Voyager, Deadlock is

the episode where Harry Kim dies,
actually dies, but there's two

of him, so it doesn't matter.

And they send the other one over
before they blow up the ship.

So, I don't hate Harry.

I just, it is not a character
that was developed at all.

Maybe one of the most underdeveloped
regular characters in Star Trek history.

Kevin: This episode is an attempt to
address that exact thing in which, Harry

falls in love with a member of a race that
is traveling on a generation ship, and

they have become xenophobic as a result.

But his love interest is revealed
to be a member of the rebellion to

escape that xenophobic lifestyle and
reconnect with other species and places.

They have a chemical
connection with their partners.

And so the opening of the episode is them
kind of stumbling into Harry's quarters

kissing, and there's a weird lighting
effect going on between their bodies.

And over the course of the episode, Harry
does increasingly insubordinate things

in service of their budding relationship.

He disobeys orders to break it off.

He steals a shuttle craft in
order to take her on a date.

The moment of the episode, I think that
the thing that this was constructed

around, was when Janeway expresses
her disapproval and disappointment

to Harry, and he says, You only feel
that way because it's me and Harry

Kim never does any wrong, right?

Harry Kim's the model officer.

I'm not interesting enough
to be insubordinate.

And she says, look, if it was Tom
Paris, I would still be disappointed.

I just wouldn't be surprised.

And so, it is an attempt to take what
Harry Kim was and turn that itself into

a story, but you don't quite buy it.

Like I don't care what the
chemicals are doing, Harry Kim

would never steal a shuttle craft.

This just is not believable.

Jason: Right.

Yep.

By the way, my other, uh, honorable
mention was going to be a span of

episodes in season one of Star Trek:
Discovery, where Ash Tyler is revealed

to be a Secret Klingon, uh, and
Burnham has to deal with that, but, eh.

I, I didn't like that.

Actually, I like the twist.

I didn't like the fact that as soon as
the twist happened, they said, Oh, but we

fixed it now when he's just a guy again.

Cuz it doesn't make any sense, right?

It's like, no, no.

He's a Klingon who had some human
thoughts put in his brain and who was

reconfigured to look like a human.

And then literally they have like a
hand wavy thing where L'Rell comes

in and says, Oh no, I fixed it.

Now he's just a guy.

Like, come on!

That character was only interesting
because he was not what he

seemed, and they're like, No, no,
he's exactly who he seems now.

The end.

And then they wrote him out
of the show the next year

anyway, so who the heck knows?

Kevin: My regular co-host Rob and I
are improvisers, and in improv that

is what you call a "cancel", when
you set up a premise and then defuse

it, to the disappointment of the
audience that had invested in it.

Unlike Harry Kim, where it was all
about the chemistry, the chemical

bond, there was no chemistry between
Burnham and and Ash as far as I could

Jason: No, no.

There's way more chemistry
between him and L'Rell, actually.

Kevin: Oddly.

Disturbingly

Jason: And obviously in season two,
they kind of wanted just like send him

off with her a little bit to see about
that and with Mary Chieffo, and then

they like shut the whole thing down.

And I don't know, it's…

I actually like Discovery season one.

I think it's a pretty good season
one, especially of Star Trek.

But that is one of the frustrating—
You talk about handing a show off

to somebody who didn't make any
of the decisions to set it up.

That happened to Discovery like three
times in the first season, and then

kept happening for a little while.

So I think they made the best
of a very weird, bad situation.

But that's one of those cases where, and
I would say Discovery more than maybe

any other Star Trek show, you can just
see the hand of the producers coming

in at various points and saying, Yeah,
we just don't want this to be the case.

Let's just get rid of it.

And Ash, Tyler's one of those where it's
like… Again, they spent, what, the first

two episodes we meet this Voq, this
weird Klingon who's super devoted to the

cult, and then you get the amazing twist,
which is like, Oh my God, that guy, they

found with Harry Mudd, he is the Klingon.

and then they're like, Yeah,
well, we're done with this, now.

We don't know what to
do with it since then.

It's like, what are you doing?

Like why, why walk that
distance if you are not gonna

do anything when you get there?

That was, that was early Discovery.

There was a whole lot of that going on.

Kevin: Sure was.

Sure was.

Well, thank you Jason Snell.

For our listeners, if you wanna catch up
with Jason, if you're into Apple stuff,

you should visit sixcolors.com and see
all of his writing and coverage there.

Uh, if you're into nerdy pop culture
like this stuff, you should visit

theincomparable.com, a podcast network
full of shows just like this one,

that cover all sorts of pop culture.

If you've, if you've got a, a pop culture
kink, it is covered there somewhere.

Jason: I think so.

Kevin: Anything else to say, Jason?

Jason: On The Incomparable
Network you can find Vulcan Hello.

We'll be back with more live action
commentary down the road, and hopefully

he'll get Random Trek up and going
again, which is fun cuz it's just

Scott and a bunch of different random
guests talking about literally random

episodes from the whole Star Trek
canon, which is, it's a lot of fun.

Kevin: I look forward to it.

Thanks again for visiting us
here on Subspace Radio, Jason.

Jason: Thank you for having me.