Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Rob: Hello, and welcome to Subspace Radio.

It is me, Rob,

Kevin: and me, Kevin.

Rob: And we are here with,
uh, tomorrow's Subspace Radio.

That's right.

We are coming in the entry point of
a white hole and the exit point of a

black hole to, uh, talk to you about
the season finale of, uh, Strange

New Worlds season four, Tomorrow's
Enterprise, a flip of a title, a

familiar title that has been used before.

Kevin: Yes, indeed.

I, I have to say just the title of
this episode had my expectations,

like, up here, sky high.

Uh, and we can talk about whether
it, uh, it, uh, raised to those lofty

heights or not, but it's a big, that's
calling your shot in Star Trek land,

is like many people argue Yesterday's
Enterprise is the best episode ever

of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

So if you call something Tomorrow's
Enterprise, it's like you're calling

your shot, and it's like this is gonna
be the best episode of our series.

Was it?

Um, w- we'll find out.

Uh, but w- when we, when we get done
talking about this, uh, this, this

story of a fragile connection between
present Uhura and future Uhura,

we're gonna talk about other fragile
connections that drove episodes of Star

Trek in the past, in the future, in
the past and future at the same time.

Who knows?

We'll see where it takes us.

Rob: Who knows?

We'll find out.

Kevin: But first, I feel like I should
tell you where I've been this week.

Rob: Yes.

Yeah, speaking of enterprises, uh,
our, our dear Kevin Yank here has

had a bit of an excursion on his, uh,
uh, uh, adventures in the Northern

Hemisphere of, uh, our island Earth.

Uh, yes.

Would you care to, uh,
uh, talk about your tour?

Kevin: Gosh, uh, I will say that if
you are a Star Trek fan enough to be

interested in listening to our ramblings
about this little franchise, then the

next time you are anywhere near the state
of New York, you owe it to yourself to

set aside a day to drive to a little
town called Ticonderoga, and see the

Star Trek Original Series set tour.

This attraction for Star Trek fans
sits within a tiny country town.

It's like one main street, um, a
Best Western hotel where I spent

the night, would not recommend it.

Find yourself, uh, an Airbnb
would be my suggestion.

But, uh, but yeah, it
is a historical town.

It has a fort that is known for
a battle that was fought between

the, the colonials and the rebels.

Rob: Battle of Ticonderoga.

I have heard of that before.

Kevin: Yeah.

It is also known for, for, uh,
graphite that is, uh, made into

orange pencils that, uh, were, were
endemic to my grade school experience.

Uh, the number of orange pencils
with Ticonderoga written on

them in gold lettering, I
probably… I, I could not count.

Uh, and so that is the two things
this, this place has going for it,

is war history and, and graphite.

Rob: How very American.

Kevin: And the third thing it has
going for it now is Star Trek.

Uh, and this, this place was set
up originally to film fan films, or

like a, an, a, a YouTube series of
continuing voyages of the USS Enterprise

1701, fans dressing up and playing
Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and company.

They, uh, recorded and released, and
you can watch online the several, uh,

productions, a series of productions over
the space of many years, uh, on these

sets that were designed to look exactly
like the sets from the original series.

They set them up in exactly the same
configuration, rebuilt them to the

blueprints that were originally used
back at Desilu Studios back in the '60s.

And, uh, I am here to tell
you, they did a darn good job.

It looks like the real thing.

Rob: Um, yeah, I, um, uh, I don't
know if you're, uh, open for sharing

the photos for anyone to see or stuff
like that, but there's definitely…

Kevin: Why the heck not?

Why the heck not?

If you want to see Kevin's tour of the USS
Enterprise, find the link in, in the show

notes and you can browse those photos.

Me and my partner, we had a private tour.

If nothing else, this is
a bargain, I will say.

If you can schlep your way all the
way to Ticonderoga, you can buy

yourself for, uh, I think it's $49
US per person, a private photo tour

where a tour guide takes you through.

And we went on a Thursday afternoon,
uh, last slot before closing time,

and the lovely Jason, dressed in
his blue original series uniform,

Rob: Looking resplendent.

Jason looked absolutely resplendent

Kevin: He walked us around the Enterprise.

We saw a couple of
other, like, tour people.

You can just walk through on
your own, um, recognizance for,

I think it's $13 to get in.

Uh, but yeah, up it to $49 and they
will walk you through every room,

tell you about the history, tell you,
point out, like, little-known things.

Every, every room has a fourth wall
that was rarely seen in the show

because that was usually pulled away
to make room for the camera equipment.

So most of the rooms are always shot from
the same angle in the original series,

and that fourth wall is there in these
sets, so you get to see something that was

rarely seen or, or, you know, was on the
blueprints but, but, uh, n- never built.

There are, there are little details
that those of us who watched the show

growing up in the '80s on a grainy,
uh, uh, s- uh, antenna connection never

noticed, but they're like, "You see
that thing? Here is a still from the

original series that proves it was there
exactly as we have recreated it." Many

of the props they have tracked down
and reclaimed either the original prop

itself or the exact same object, uh,
if it is a mass market produced thing.

They've got a, a vase that they had to
track down from a, a place in Italy that

hasn't made them in decades, but they
had one sitting on the shelf, and they

were willing to let it go for a price.

The, the episode Court Martial has
a little bell that, that, uh, they

use in the, in the, uh, briefing
room in order to ring the bell.

The bell that they have there is the
original screen-used one from that

episode, and they were like, "Do not
touch it. That thing is worth more than

I make in a year." But, uh, it, it is
incredible the level of detail in, in

the place, if that gives you any idea.

Rob: What I was particularly impressed
with, with the photos that you shared

with me was the big thing of the m-
the, the time and effort put into

the lighting of the space as well.

Like, the great thing about that
original series is those, you know,

those severe color lights that
you have go across certain spaces.

Kevin: I was wondering that too
because you watch the original series

and those colors are so present.

The, the, the, uh, cinematographers really
went to town on making this a festival of

color for, because color TV was new at the
time the original series was broadcast.

And just as the, the gold, red, and
blue uniforms were, were important

to selling the show to that new
market of color TV owners, so was

the lighting of the Enterprise.

And I was worried that, you know,
it, it would not, um, it would not

translate in person, but sh- it sure did.

It, it was like it's in 2D when you watch
it on TV, but here you walk into a 3D

space that has all of the same lighting,
and it is, it is, um, incredible.

Like, if anything, it makes it more potent
and it, it's like watching a 3D version

or a virtual reality version of something
that you have always watched in 2D.

Like, your favorite movie from the '60s
has suddenly, there's a 3D version of

it that you, you did not know exists,
and you can i- step right into it.

It, it, it is incredible.

One thing that I'll mention you
can see in some of the photos is

because these are sets and were
built like sets, there is no roof.

There's no ceiling to any of the rooms.

Instead, you can see all the lights kind
of, uh, s- kind of hanging from the top

of the walls projecting down inwards.

So if you want the kind of immersive
experience, you almost have to, like,

kinda cover the top of your vision.

And every time I was taking photos, I
was, like, choosing whether I was taking

a photo of a set or taking a photo of
the Enterprise, and I would have to

cheat down in order to make sure that
you never saw above the top of the set.

So there's that.

Um, what you won't see in
the photos is the sound.

I, I don't remember that thrum or that
hum of the Enterprise being there.

I suspect if, if they did recreate
that part of it, it would've made

the experience a little oppressive.

And also stepping onto the bridge, I
was expecting all the pings and the

beeps and the, the, the, you know,
the sound of the little lights that go

along the bottom of the view screen.

None of that was there unfortunately, and
I, again, I feel like that is something

that probably works on TV but would
be a little s- overstimulating, uh,

Rob: Yeah

Kevin: in, in, that experience.

Instead, what they had is a series of
kind of communication announcements,

and so a lot of them are, like, uh,
lines from the original series that

were spoken over the ship's intercom.

So you feel like you're hearing
Bones, you're hearing Scotty making

calls that occurred in the episodes.

And those are mixed in with, uh,
recently recorded, uh, um, barks

or announcements by, uh, o- cast
members who have visited the studio.

So you can, you can
hear a William Shatner.

You can hear a, a Sulu or a,
or a uh, Chekov making, uh, uh,

freshly recorded announcements.

Uh, and that stuff was really fun.

The one l- low point I'll say is,
um, there is one screen where before

you step into the newly created
shuttle bay to see the newly restored

shuttlecraft Galileo, which is the actual
shuttlecraft Galileo from the 1960s

that has been restored several times.

It is now freshly restored again.

It was brand newly, um, unveiled
a week before we got there.

But before you step into that shuttle
bay, they make you stand in front

of a screen, and they play you an AI
video of Montgomery Scott giving you a

briefing before you step in and going,
"Please keep your hands to yourself

and stay behind the white line."

And that, that would have all
been fine if it was not this AI

reproduction and an AI voice, uh,
uh, match of, of, uh, Jimmy Doohan.

It was very uncanny valley, and it lasts
a, a little too long as well because you

could see they are quite proud of it.

And I, I would say as a fan, that part,
that, like, 30, 45 seconds in front of

that screen was deeply discomforting.

Uh, it felt disrespectful to the actor
and, uh, and I would take it out.

Like, if they send me a feedback form,
I would say the entire experience

is 10 out of 10 amazing, and then it
dropped to a 1 out of 10 for those

45 seconds where we had to watch
that thing that really bugged me.

But, uh, yeah, the Galileo's incredible.

The, the bridge, like, I would pay
our $45 just to walk around that

bridge for 15 minutes, honestly.

Uh, the rest of it was
just icing on the cake.

And we got to stand on
the transporter platform.

We got to, um, sit in sickbay among
the beds and see the, uh, the,

uh, life signs go up and down.

Um, one thing that I never noticed
in watching the original series but

having toured the sets, i- that never,
that I never noticed is roughly half

the sets are devoted to medical.

There is the sickbay ward with the beds.

That's one whole room.

There is the sickbay reception
or office space that has the two

diagnostic beds that tilt up and down.

That's a separate space.

There's Dr. McCoy's office,
which is a third space again.

And then there's the medical lab that
has the giant door that, uh, closes

on a pressurization chamber that was
only ever used in two episodes, but if

you turn to the right, it also has the
lab table, which has all the beakers

and things where they analyze stuff.

And, uh, and that was in several episodes.

And so, like, four whole rooms of this
set, that is about eight rooms large,

were all related to medical section.

And, uh, yeah, Jason, uh, when I pointed
this out, Jason said, "Yeah, you don't

realize until you're on the Enterprise
just how much real estate Bones had all to

Rob: Yeah.

Lots of, lots, lots and lots of, uh,
space for Bones to, to do his thing.

Kevin: Yeah.

So yeah, Ticonderoga has, it has an annual
festival of Star Trek called Trekonderoga,

and the celebrities come out, the actors
come out every year, the, and it is a Star

Trek fe- uh, like, uh, um, conference,
festival, whatever you wanna call it.

Um, and, uh, it feels like you want to go
then, but what the, the people told me,

and, and my experience bears it out, is,
like, for that weekend, there are 2,000

people trying to squeeze into that place.

And you're walking down the halls
shoulder-to-shoulder with fans who are

all trying to get to where the celebrities
are, and it is just a madhouse.

And they said, "The way to tour this place
is to come on a Thursday afternoon that's

not at all special, and, uh, you will have
the entire place to yourself, and you feel

like you're walking around the Enterprise,
and you feel like the crew you know and

love could be just around each corner.

It really feels that, uh, immersive.

Rob: Incredible.

Incredible stuff.

It's like, yeah, going to, it's
like going to Edinburgh Fringe.

It's great to go there during the
festival 'cause there's, you know,

the population, you know, quadruples
for, for three weeks, and it's

amazing to see all that type of stuff.

But you can barely, you know,
you don't, there's no spaces

where you can fling a cat.

Um, but when you go to Edin-
Edinburgh on the off season, you,

oh, just walk around and explore.

So, uh, they don't have as
many awesome engine rooms, but

Kevin: Oh, the engine room!

I didn't even mention the engine room.

The engine room is huge.

The, and, uh, they, they talked
about how they built the whole second

level only in the second season.

Like, they told me stuff I did
not know, which is incredible.

They had the whole, they had the
forced perspective kind of engine

core that you could see, and they have
the grille in front of it that was

exactly like the grille on the TV.

And I was in very much like be a good fan,
keep your hands to yourself, uh, unless

invited mode, and I just said to him, "Do
you get many crazy fans trying to hang

off the grille pretending the ship's under
attack?" And he goes, "I'll tell you what.

That grille was built to withstand it.

You're, you're welcome to try it."

And so you'll see several photos of
me hanging off in, in, uh, terror, uh,

off the, uh, engine room grille, and
that, that by itself was a highlight.

Rob: Yes.

Well, the, the, the series of
photos that you have shared is,

has, has been an adventure to, to,
to see the, the two of you having

such a lovely time, uh, and really
immersing yourself in the experience.

Kevin: Yes, indeed.

All right, well, we've got an
episode of Star Trek to talk about,

and it's not a small one, so, uh,
I think we had better crack on.

Rob: Yes.

Uh, Tomorrow's Enterprise is, uh,
the season finale of season four

and, um, we have the very welcome
introduction of a white hole.

Now, a white hole is an only theoretical
occurrence; there have never been

any white holes actually found.

Um, me being a big Red Dwarf fan, if any,
uh, of our listeners out there watch the

sci-fi comedy, uh, masterpiece that is
Red Dwarf would know that in, uh, season

four there's an incredible episode called
White Hole that spews, you know, time

and space back into the universe and
there's some great sketches where they

repeat the same scene over and over again
'cause time is flowing, flowing back in.

Very, very

Kevin: I remember it fondly.

It's a funny one.

Rob: Yeah.

Um, "I, I've never seen it before.

No one has.

I'm guessing it's a white
hole." "A white hole?" "Yes.

So that's spewing back into the
universe." "So what is it?" Great.

Incredible.

Um, go out and watch it.

Uh, so d- any time a white
hole is mentioned I go a

little bit, ooh, Red Dwarf.

Well done.

Uh, Star Trek.

Um, and, uh, this is an Uhura episode.

This is all focused on Uhura.

Uhura now and Uhura in a year.

So the Tomorrow's Enterprise
that we see is the Enterprise

from a year in the future.

Kevin: A lot has happened
in that year, it seems.

One of the, uh, one of the things
that, that beggared belief was just how

dramatically things had changed and how
much, um, how much Uhura is meant to have

grown and changed in, in a single year.

Um, the, the moment towards the end
where they, uh, the, where future Uhura,

we'll call her, uh, calls her younger
self "kid," I think, like, would I call

myself "kid" if I was speaking to a
one-year, uh, earlier version of myself?

Probably not.

But boy, uh, we are led to believe that
Uhura really grows up in the next year.

But before we get any deeper into
this episode, tell me at a high

level, Rob, uh, so thumbs up,
thumbs down, what did you think?

Rob: For me, and I'm getting a sense that
we might be on different sides of the

paddock for this one, I really loved it.

I really enjoyed this episode.

There was some really, uh, emotional
stuff in there that I really liked.

There was some high-concept,
uh, Star Trek stuff.

I love, uh, I loved the space baby concept
that we've explored little bits of here

and there in Star Trek in the past.

Um, I loved the moments to sit
with some characters and, uh,

see what they mean to each other.

Um, and, and I th- I think, um,
our, our lead performance, uh, uh,

of Uhura in the center was just w-
wonderful, a wonderful performance.

Like, I thought it was a great
celebration of Star Trek.

We didn't have any of the,
the, the rickety rackety.

We didn't have any of the pastiches.

We just had another, you know,
solid, uh, Star Trek episode.

And I… It was kinda like
a low-key season finale.

We didn't have big, massive, um, you know,
earth-shattering, global, uh, you know,

universal threats, which I kinda like.

I, I've, I've, I think I've talked
about this many times before.

I like a low-key season finale.

I don't, I don't… It gets a bit
boring that at the end of every

season, the entire, you know,
universal plane is under threat or

everything we know is under threat.

I like this little moment.

It's a big stressful moment, but it's a
big, uh, revelation for our characters.

I like that kind

Kevin: Yeah.

They definitely, like, pulled
out a bunch of stops and made

a big deal of this episode.

Like, they, they went, I think, above and
beyond, and, uh, it seems put, put more

ti- more effort and money, uh, into this
than a typical episode of the season.

And at the same time, as you say,
it was, it was self-contained, it

was a personal character-driven
story, and I like that, too.

I agree.

Uh, there were… In general, I would
say this episode felt like it doubled

down on the things that worked this
season, and also doubled down on the

things that did not work this season.

And that is both, you know,
to its, its benefit and its

detriment, as you would expect.

This, this episode for
me is a tale of extremes.

There were parts of it that I thought
were extremely well done and I loved.

The performances, the production
values, the, even the score.

They, they, they clearly wrote an
original score just for this episode,

and, um, it, it really elevates it.

There are moments that are s- that
are held up by the music, and that

music has a wow factor to it that
I would listen to the score of this

episode as I would to any, uh, feature
film in the Star Trek franchise.

It is that much of a highlight to me.

So, and, um, Celia Rose Gooding's, um,
uh, performance by itself, incredible.

Uh, the, the creation of the future
Enterprise in uniforms and hairstyles

and performances was incredible.

Even the, the cinematography of shooting
the future Enterprise in a cool blue

lighting state and the, the current
Enterprise in a warm yellow lighting

state, uh, the playfulness with the, the
going left and right and the, the mixed

shots, all of that made this episode
better than I'm used to seeing, better

than most episodes of this series.

But the stuff we've been complaining
about a- again and again this season,

the loosey-goosey stuff, really, it
was loosier and goosier than it, than

it has been already this season, which
has been pretty loosey-goosey at times.

And so things like the, the uniform
change not being recognized.

When our characters swap and there's
a, there's, there's lines of dialogue

that talk about her hairdo changing
or you look a little different, the

fact that she is wearing a completely
different uniform, one that either

has been out of service for nearly a
year or has not yet been introduced.

You're, you're wearing some sort
of plunging neckline that, that

hasn't even been released by
Starfleet Uniform Central yet.

Like, these things that- It's again,
it felt like the people working on this

show were not talking to each other, and
the, the script has no hint that she's

in a different uniform, but someone in
the costume department went, "Oh, it's

a future Enterprise? What a great excuse
for us to redesign the uniforms to make

them more like the original series. That
will delight the fans." Yes, it will

delight the fans if that was compatible
with the letter of the script, which

it was not, and it w- really bugged me.

Um, so that sort of stuff bothered
me, but it was just a bothering.

It was like me going, "Oh, there they
go again, being loosey-goosey." Where

it completely went off the rails
for me was the space baby stuff.

You loved the space baby stuff, but
to me, that's where the technobabble

degenerated into absolute nonsense for me.

The fact that these, this time, outside
of time species would have concepts

like the midwives and a breech birth
that would translate so literally to

needing to have drones to manipulate the,
the head of this, this transcendental

space baby in a way that Chapel
could coach Uhura from the bridge.

Like, all of that stuff,
it completely lost me.

And I'll, I'll say I had the unique
experience of watching this with my

family, who enjoys, like my family here
in Canada where I'm visiting, who enjoys

Star Trek at a more, much more casual
level, and a couple of them are, are in

the younger age bracket, um, in the, in
the early and mid-teens, and the kids

especially checked out at that point.

They were like, "What?"

Like, they loved the time travel stuff.

They were following the two time
frames and the going back and forth.

They were completely on board with that.

But as soon as the space baby stuff
happened, they were like, "What?

This makes no sense." And I
was like, "Yeah, it- I have

to admit, it makes no sense."

Uh, and, and it, it, yeah, it, it
went from a, a, a highlight of an

episode whose little flaws I could
look past, to me, like, that ending

really lost me completely, I'm

Rob: That's a shame.

Yeah, I, I, I, well, I like when
big high-concept sci-fi stuff blends

with, you know, um, s- tangible
stuff that we understand and know.

It's, uh, o- one of the things that I
love about when, when Doctor Who brings

the fantastical into the everyday.

So I love how there was that, that,
you know, this, you know, nonlinear

being coming into existence through
two different time zones and stuff

like that, and how we can, you know,
use what we know and how that is

interpreted through our, you know, our
everyday life to connect that together.

I… For me, that doesn't con- disconnect.

That, for me, that's a, a, that bridges me
into these higher concepts, which I find

Kevin: For me, it just needed a
little more technobabble translation

of, "Okay, they're saying midwives,
they're saying breech birth.

What could that mean to this, this entity?

Let's scan it.

Let's understand the
nature of this entity.

Tell us about it.

It's a being made of light, or it's
a being made of gravity, or it's a

being made of time, and so we need
to manipulate it with chronitons.

"Let's shoot a chroniton beam at it."
Like, a little bit of that, like, less

literal, um, um, mapping of, of these,
these aliens that are so disconnected from

our existence and our reality, the words
they were using, to, to… Yeah, the,

the, the physical manipulation just really
lost me because it didn't make sense.

And it- And as Spock pointed out in the
text of the episode, it made no sense

that Uhura was standing on the rim of
the saucer to complete these maneuvers.

It made no sense that she untethered
herself and jumped into, uh, a,

a white hole or a black hole.

And all of the effects in that moment,
we've complained about the effects earlier

this season sometimes being a little
disconnected from, uh, the script or, or

our understanding of what was happening.

The fact that she, like, disappeared into
an invisible plane, like just a meter

off the edge of the saucer, when clearly
the event horizon was way off in the

distance at that black circle in space.

Like, that stuff, it, it, like…
I was once again going, "Oh, okay,

clearly someone was just told,
'Make her disappear,' and no one

was really c- sweating the details
of how far away is this thing? What

are the actual- What is the actual
physical nature of this situation?"

No one drew the kind of diagram of here's
where the Enterprise is, here's where

Uhura is, here's where the event horizon
is, and here's what's gonna happen.

None of that happened.

It was just kind of
loosey-goosey as usual.

Rob: Yeah, it was going for m- more
what that means emotionally for

Uhura at this time, and so that she
could connect with her, you know,

future past self type of thing.

Yeah, there could be more of a, a,
a… There was an effort to keep

this, you know, this out of time,
uh, creature in almost a mythical

type of larger than understanding.

But because of that, there's some of
the, the steps to get to that point were

missed out, and we just had to just trust
in the faith of the characters going,

"Well, this is what we're gonna do."

But yeah, if there's some sort of
understanding of, you know, you don't

need to explain their full existence, but
just what type of, you know, being they're

made of or something like that, that
they can use that to solve the problem.

They can still keep this enigmatic
nature of the, of these nonlinear

creatures, but using, you know, you
know, stepping stones of science to,

to get- or logic to get to that point a
bit clearer as opposed to just go, "Just

trust us. Trust the emotional feeling."

Kevin: The logic of the, the two
timeframes and their effect on

each other was very reminiscent
to me of the Star Trek: The Next

Generation series finale, All Good
Things…, in which Q is behind it all.

So the rules are somewhat, like, open
to, like, creative, uh, um, control

by Q. So, like, the fact that it may
not, you know, quite hold water, you

can excuse by, "Okay, well, it was Q
making it what he wanted it to be."

But nevertheless, that idea of, like,
an anomaly in the future, uh, traveling

backwards in time and expressing itself
in a past timeframe, that is something

we saw in All Good Things…, and we see
it, or it is ref- referenced here in a

couple of lines of that, that, that we
are meant to understand that is what is

happening, that the, the end- the, uh,
anomaly, the, the white hole, black hole,

the black hole is newly created in the
year from now future, um, but it travels

back in time and causes a white hole to
appear in the past, uh, which I thought

was, I, I really liked that, but at least
where, you know, my mental model for how

that would work did not match what we,
what we were then, what then occurred

or we were then told here in the script.

So I thought, "Okay, well, if the idea
is that the, the black hole is newly

formed and is traveling back in time
and changing the past, then the original

mission to this quadrant of space should
not have had a white hole," in my mind.

But we are told that they did
explore a white hole in this

qu- in this sector a year ago.

Strangely, no one makes the connection
to the black hole, uh, that if, again,

it was a case of that, it was a, must
have been a very long year because

no one goes, "Oh, we're exploring a,
a black hole. Uh, I wonder if it had

anything to do with that white hole
that was right in this neighborhood a

year ago." No one makes that connection
until, uh, Uhura points it out.

Um, but then I was like, okay,
so how did that first mission go?

Because before the change happens
for future Uhura, Scotty is alive.

She and Scotty are dating.

So I am to understand that the
original mission to the white hole

was uneventful for Scotty, or Scotty
escaped alive, and yet we are told

later that, that, uh that there was
a, a shockwave or something like that.

But maybe that occur- maybe
that happened after the change.

Anyway, uh, the, the connections of, like,
what, what happened in that or- original

mission to the white hole, we aren't told.

And I guess it's kind of like if
they stopped and explained that to

us, that is not actually material
to the story, what happened on

that original white hole mission.

But it bothered me that w- we were
never quite given that information

in order to help us understand our,
our … or form our understanding

of the mechanics of what's going on.

My parents were very confused by this
stuff of like, "Okay, wait a minute. Uh,

what happened before and what changed
and what are we trying, what, what

timeline are we trying to restore?" They
could not quite follow that because of

the n- number of threads going on here.

But, uh, yeah, uh, it, it, it was a
lot to follow and take in and, uh,

and, and what worked, I quite enjoyed.

The, the going backwards, the, the events
of the future affecting the past, like,

all of that stuff I, I really quite liked.

I just wish it was a little more
clear and, and held together in the

script just a little more tight.

Rob: It was very much packed in
there and there was so much to

Kevin: Yeah.

It was a long episode.

I think it runs at an hour and two
minutes on Paramount Plus, and that'll

be including the credits and everything,
but still, that is a, a longie.

So I, I can understand why they were,
were maybe chopping bits out of it.

Rob: Yes.

I did like, you know, that great
time travel stuff of going, um,

you know, "We can't do that now."
We've h- we've got an entire year.

So, you

Kevin: year.

That was

Rob: goes

Kevin: that, that's some
Doctor Who stuff there.

Rob: I love that.

Uh, yeah, it's very Blink and stuff.

Like Uhura going back and asking Spock to
do something, and then a year later asking

him and he's very annoyed going, "Yes,
I've done all this stuff and you've just

Kevin: "Why didn't you come and ask
me?" I- that made no sense to me again.

Like, I don't know why Spock
didn't tell her that he had

completed his calculations.

The ball was clearly in his court.

So the fact that he completed his
calculations and then waited for

Uhura, even though he had told her,
"It'll take a year for me to do

this," he got really annoyed that
he finished it after 10 months and

Uhura didn't come and check on him.

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

Um, the, the whole stuff about
going, "Oh, we need a diamond, so

let's do the diamond and create the

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Diamond's there," that
type of stuff I really loved.

Kevin: I didn't understand why the door
that she, she put the diamond in a hatch

in a, in a containment space and closed
it, and the door closed one way and then

it split to the year later where she
opened the door the opposite direction.

And my understanding is that was
intentional, that they were having

fun with like switching shots or
switching sets and doing left to right

switches in the, in the two timeframes.

But I do not understand why the ship
that is supposed to be the literal

same ship on the same timeline would
have the same door suddenly open in

a different direction on, on the set.

Like again, that to me is someone got
clever and was like, "I have a cool

idea," but no one bothered to, uh, apply
the does it make sense filter to it.

Rob: Loosey-goosey with physics as well.

Now, um, I really wanted to talk to you.

There are so many, so many references
and so many, uh, like, uh, cameos and

needle drops, uh, of, of the series.

We, we find out what happens to Ortegas.

Um, we have a bit of, uh, fans of Star
Trek V, which I know we both are, we

have done audio commentary on it, to
see a bit of a connection, a validation

of the Uhura-Scotty, uh, relationship
building up there in Season 5.

We see the starting of it here.

Um, that's a long game.

Uh, we have shout-out to Gary Mitchell,
and he is the step or half-brother

of Mitchell, who, who hasn't
appeared in this season, but she's

one of the… She's the navigator.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Plus, we had, like, three
Star Trek animated series

Kevin: aliens.

Yeah.

Well, we had the avians from
the, uh, animated series who have

also appeared in Lower Decks.

We had, uh, uh, some sort of reptilian
who we've- You know, we've seen that,

a species like that in Discovery.

I don't know if it's the s- exact
same species, but that was fun to see.

And we had a literal M'Ress
from the, uh, animated series.

My- W- From what I've heard from ba- the,
the behind-the-scenes, uh, um, uh, clips

that have been released is all of those,
uh, aliens were created practically.

They were actual, like, physical costumes
that were worn on the set, and, uh,

mostly I'd say they looked really great.

I'm not sure M'Ress'
face quite worked for me.

She looked a little too Animated
Series to me, if you know what I mean.

But she's off in the background,
and you, you, you don't quite see

her unless you're really looking,
so, uh, I think it's forgivable.

But yeah, I, I wish they had done a, had
time for a second pass of the M'Ress head,

uh, to me because I would have liked to
see something a little more realistic

rather than a literal translation
of the animated series character.

Rob: And like literally the big yellow
griffin, uh, with no pants, no shirt,

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: around completely nude on
the Enterprise, uh, hangar bay.

I'm going, "All right. Okay. I know
that's from the animated series, but

for god's sake, put some pants on."

Kevin: Yeah, so lots to like.

I mean, Uhura and her look
itself, um, masterfully executed.

Uh, I loved the, um, the take on the,
the, uh, original series uniforms with

the plunging neckline for the, for the
ladies and the, the insignia kind of

sitting right on the collar where the
darts of the uniform kind of converge.

Like, that is exactly the original
series miniskirt, but, like,

translated into this, this Strange
New Worlds production design.

It- the- they, you know, it's hard to
argue with it because I don't want them

to literally create a 1960s miniskirt
for, for the female officers, but the

fact that those, um, uniforms were
a little longer and closer to the

knee, I felt like pulled them out of
balance in term of design a little bit.

I'm, I'm not an expert in costumes or
fashion, but something about them- It

was, it was similar to when we saw future
Pike in A Quality of Mercy, and he had

the, he had the Monster Maroon, and I
was like, "I appreciate the nod, but

the execution feels like just a little
too slick, and some of the things that

should be big are small, and some of the
things that should be small are big."

I think they were a lot closer to the mark
here with the, the, uh, female officers'

uniform, uh, but it still had a little bit
of that, um, off-balance look to it that

it, it felt like close but just different
enough that the differences bothered me.

Nevertheless, when, when Uhura
was playing future Uhura, I

could see Nichelle Nichols.

Like, more than any other recreated legacy
character in this series, it felt to me

like the original character was brought
back to life here by Celia Rose Gooding,

and that is testament both to the hair
stylists and, and costume designers and

to the actor who, who, who made it work.

It, it was incredible.

It, it actually made me, like,
choked up a little bit, seeing,

seeing Nichelle Nichols come back
to life through this performance.

It, it was that good.

Rob: Yeah, Celia Rose Gooding is
incredible at being, yeah, it's

a, a, a tremendous, especially
seeing Uhura as a character have

the focus for this season finale.

Two versions of this character,
a version who we've seen develop,

two versions of this character who
we've seen develop over four years

with Celia Rose Gooding playing.

We've seen for decades with,
you know, um, Nichelle Nichols

playing obviously beautifully.

Um, and have the weight of Celia Rose
Gooding having to not only carry on what

she has created, um, but this episode is
going, this is the bridge, this is the

bridging episode of both interpretations.

And I have never seen a more masterful,
uh, tribute, but not a, a, a parody,

not a, you know, a impersonation.

It's, uh, it's, it was masterfully done.

She's done an incredible job, and
it was a beautiful realization.

And I mean, a lot can happen in a year.

I'm very quite reflective of going, you
know, certain points in my life when

I can see a timeline of where I was
12 months ago, and the things that you

learn and how you evolve and, uh, the way
that life, uh, deals you certain things.

Um, there could be a, a sense of
it's, it's not epic change, but

it is big changes in how she views
herself and how, how sure of herself

she is, uh, in a, a year's time was,
was a beautiful sight to behold.

And how, uh, you know, just l- reflecting
back, whether it's a year or, or

three or four years, looking back and
going, "You got this. You got this."

And a beautiful moment which we haven't
had get to talk about, I really wanted to,

and it seemed like they won't get a chance
to do it next season 'cause it's a shorter

season, going, "Let's have a moment with
Uhura and Pike," and just sit there and

just go, "Everything I am in the Starfleet
is because of what you've given me."

Kevin: Yeah, that, like, it was a
sweet scene and well-acted, but, um,

I mean, tipping, like, teasing some of
my thoughts about the other episodes

we're gonna talk about today, um,
I have seen, I've seen other scenes

that tugged at the heartstrings more
because they felt more grounded,

more, uh, based on more platform.

This relationship between Pike and
Uhura is something that we are kind

of, we are, have, are, are being shown
the consequences of it, but I don't

feel like we ever saw the moments of
mentorship between Pike and Uhura.

Like, "Everything I am is because
of your guidance," like, we never

really saw the guidance in my mind.

We only ever really saw, you
know, the moment of you're being

promoted or the moment of, of, of,
um, of thank you for everything.

I would have liked to see a little more
of the everything, but I guess that's

just the curse of so m- such limited
screen time for these characters.

Rob: Yeah.

It's taking those moments that, you
know, those social scenes at the end

of episodes or in between episodes,
the, the missions that she's put on.

There's b- a little bit in this, in
season one like, uh, that responsibility

he gives to her and stuff like that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Those signs that we kind of had to
dot the I's and cross the T's ourselves.

Kevin: What was your take on the
La'an moment where, um, where current

Uhura stuck in the future asks Jim
where La'an is and Jim, Jim does a

thing that is open to interpretation.

Rob: Yep, yep.

Okay, everybody, we got a
happy ending for Ortegas.

She's got a, a new hain- n- new
hairdo, and she's incredible and safe.

She, you know, 'cause she doesn't
have, you know, a canon, you

know, she's not canon bulletproof.

Uh, La'an is not canon bulletproof either.

She gone.

She dead.

Kevin: She gone.

Hmm.

Rob: There's

Kevin: I've heard the hopeful speculation
that La'an gets removed from the

timeline by this Department of Temporal
Investigations that, uh, she talks

about in, in the moment with Uhura here.

Rob: Wesley Crusher's gonna show up again.

Kevin: Yeah, maybe.

But I- I- if, if what Kirk is
meant- if what Kirk is meant to be

playing there is an ambiguity that
encompasses the possibility that he

does not remember La'an because she
is no longer a part of the timeline,

I don't think that's what we saw.

He was clearly shaken by
the mention of her name.

He clearly remembers her, but for
whatever reason cannot speak of it.

So it feels more to me like a Discovery
going to the future, Michael Burnham

shall never be mentioned, uh, moment
that, that we have all agreed not to

talk about what happened to La'an.

That's what it looks like to me, is
that maybe, you know, m- maybe they

are in love, but she has to go away for
the good of the timeline and the fact

that he has lost his La'an but is not
allowed to speak of her for the good

of the timeline, that feels roughly the
neighborhood we're playing with here.

Rob: Yeah, that's what
I got the sense of it.

A sense of he can't mention it
because he, he doesn't want Uhura

to know, that type of stuff.

But yeah, there are people going, "What?
Maybe it appears she's dead, but she's

actually gone to work for the temporal
thing." So I th- um, whether I see

that as a cop-out or not, I'm not sure.

Um, but yeah, they, they built up,
she is far too happy and having

far too much goodness with people,
with a, a certain person that we

know, uh, does not settle down.

Kevin: Yeah.

That's the, the worst, the, the worst
news for your character is, and they

end the episode happier than usual.

It's like, uh-oh.

Rob: I'll do another, uh, you
know, franchise reference.

There's, uh, uh, Angel, which is the
spinoff of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Uh, in its final season when it actually
gets good, um, there's, there's this

buildup will they, won't they between
the character Fred and Wesley, and

they do a puppet episode as well where,
um, uh, Angel turns into a puppet

and s- that's a very good episode.

And at the end of that episode,
Wesley and Fred get together and

that's been a will they, won't they
for about three years, three seasons.

And they get together at the end, and it's
a joyful, happy ending to the episode.

But any of us who know, uh, the Buffy
universe, nobody has a happy ending.

And so the very next episode, uh,
spoilers, uh, she gets, uh, possessed

by an ancient, uh, murderous demon,
spirit dies, and, uh, it leads into the

season finale, which is a cliffhanger
ending that they never resolved.

But it's all very dark and broody
and going, ah, there we are.

There we go.

No one gets a happy ending.

And so with last week's episode with La'an
dancing around in happiness with Kirk,

I'm going, "Well, that ain't gonna last."

We had Boyce, so I think that
confirms when we ain't seeing,

Kevin: The Enterprise has
three different doctors at this

point, one year in the future.

We've got M'Benga, who's spending more
and more time away from the ship, and

it's good that he's on Vulcan studying
Vulcans because when he comes back in the

original series, there is a particular
episode where he is acknowledged as

an authority in Vulcan physiology.

So that is nice to hear.

Uh, we've got Boyce on board, and we've
got Bones, who is tipped to become the

new chief medical officer, which is nice.

Not seen though, because we are
promised we will- that, that role

has been cast only for next season.

Rob: That's right.

That is, uh, the great Thomas Jane.

Um, but yes, so we have three
medical offic- officers there, but no

Kevin: And a fourth one, Piper, not,
not yet figuring-- not-- we don't yet

know where he fits into the picture.

I wonder if we'll see or, or hear Piper
acknowledged at all in this series, or if

he's, he's been l- yeah, The Lost Doctor.

Interesting.

Um, at the very end, when, uh, the two
Uhuras are on the disco bridge in, in

the, uh, null space of, of, uh, of the
end of this episode, the Midwives say

to them that h- having delivered the new
baby successfully, they say, "The new

life will be in peril until you save it."

And there's some veiled mentions of,
"If you encounter us again, you'll

know what to do," and all of that.

Again, I was like, "Is
that meant to be a promise?

Is that to- meant to mean something?

I thought you just did save this new life.

What's going on?"

I don't know.

It was all so hand-wavy.

So yeah.

And the other thing I wondered is at the
very end when we're seeing both Uhuras,

like, in their restored timelines, the
poker game in the future and the captain's

dinner in the past, um, are, are those
both now part of this restored timeline,

or is this f- future Uhura living in a
dead timeline that will no longer exist

because past Uhura now has knowledge
that is going to create a new future?

Uh, I don't know.

Uh, I guess, I guess
we'll, we'll never know.

Rob: We just assume it's all
connected in one and it's not the,

the split, the split time- timeline
like, uh, uh, Back to the Future II.

We can get out a whiteboard
or a chalkboard and draw on.

Kevin: It's not clear, uh, uh, on
second viewing of this episode also

why Uhura has the first premonition of
Scotty's death, that when they're at the

white hole and she hears the echoes of
Scotty's scream and, and, and, and death.

Like, where, where did that come from?

I don't understand why
the two Uhuras swap.

Like, are these two Uhuras, like,
special from the perspective of this

white hole, black hole, wormhole thing?

Like, is, is Uhura related to it
somehow in some way by the fact that

they are communicating through it?

Again, that is a little unclear.

Like, why would one officer
on the Enterprise swap in

that moment of calamity?

Uh, like, there are things that happen
in this that are just- that seem to, in

hindsight, just happen for plot reasons.

Uh, and, and I want a little more
technobabble in my Star Trek to,

to, to- for things to hang together.

But yeah, overall, it's, yeah,
it's such a puzzle to me.

I don't know if- You remember when we
heard- watched Subspace Rhapsody for

the first time, and you and I were
both quite down on it on first viewing?

That's an episode that every time I
revisit it, I see it more fondly because I

know what it is, and I know what it isn't,
and I can appreciate it for what it is

and overlook the things that it is not.

And I f- I wonder if Tomorrow's
Enterprise is gonna be like that for

me, that now that I know the things
that are wrong with it, I can make my

peace with them and then allow myself
to enjoy what is there on screen.

It may be that I enjoy this a little
more each time I watch it, but, um, on

first viewing with my family huddled
around in, in, in my parents' living room

and them going, "Does this show usually
make no sense?" Um, I, I was, uh, I was

frankly a little embarrassed at what
was happening in this season finale.

Rob: I am looking forward to g- uh, I'm
getting that sense of rewatching the whole

thing and seeing those episodes I look f-
uh, fondly on, if that still is the case.

How will I come across those episodes
that I wasn't, uh, too fond of?

And how, now that I'm seeing the
whole show as a whole, um, will

that shift how I perceive the highs
and the lows as I go back to watch?

Kevin: Oh, I'll tell you what, just going
back and seeing A Quality of Mercy, like

I said last week, it was shocking to me
how different the show was, how different

it looked, how different the characters
carried themselves, and the actors were

still kind of like figuring out, like,
what is it to be a Star Trek character?

Like, th- it felt like a little janky in,
in, in ways that I did not see it the f-

the first time we watched those shows.

But jumping back, it's amazing how
much this show has grown and refined

itself and, and settled into a, a, uh,
a comfort that, uh, these actors have

playing these characters, uh, that didn't
exist in those early awkward episodes.

Uh, and, yeah, it is shocking
how much it is different.

Rob: Wow.

Uh, what we do here every week is we
look, uh, at past episodes of Star

Trek and how it connects with a th-
certain theme that has come across in

the one we've most recently watched.

Kevin: Yeah, and we were gonna talk
about fragile connections because,

uh, this episode does seem to revolve
around that fragile connection

between future and past Uhura.

They, they barely manage to connect.

There is a few scenes where they are
working together and communicating in

re- real time through the earpiece,
and then they swap places and, and

cannot communicate, uh, after that.

And so the, the, the moments of
communication and inability to

communicate are central to this
episode's structure, and that felt

like something that I can- I, I, I feel
echoes of in other, uh, past episodes.

And it's a, it's a heady one.

It's an abstract one.

We had to chat about it a bit
before I could, before I could

explain what it meant to me.

Um, but, uh, what did you think
of that as a, as a topic, Rob?

Rob: Yeah, it was a tricky one to--
So, you know, all, all cards on the

table, I found it very hard to find
episodes that connected together.

So you, um, laid out two for us.

And so I went and watched,
uh, both of those episodes.

And so both of them have, um, that, that
connection is probably stronger in one.

Like, one of the episodes is,
like, the through line through

the-- That's the A plot.

Um, whereas in one of the other ones,
uh, it's more of the B plot and sort

of like we don't really see how that
relationship develops and grows.

We see the end result of it, but
it's more the moral dilemma of

what that means for, for the crew.

Kevin: All right.

Well, let's stop beating around the
bush because o- o- our listeners

are probably scrolling ahead in the
show notes to see what, what veiled

references we are making here.

So let's start with

Rob: looking at your photos.

They're scrolling ahead link.

Yeah, okay?

They're, they're now seeing you
grabbing onto the cage in the engine

Kevin: Yeah, that's right

Rob: over-the-top reaction.

Kevin: Come back to us, dear listener.

We're gonna talk about Star Trek: The
Next Generation, Season 2, Episode 15, Pen

Pals, is that we have talked about before.

It was in our Lessons in Leadership
episode because of all of the stuff

with Wesley leading a team to do
geologic surveys of, of these planets

that are facing tectonic stresses.

Uh, and, and I always remember this as the
B plot of the episode, I think because the

title Pen Pals really does refer to Data's
r- relationship with this voice over, over

the, uh, the, the communications link.

But this really is a, a Wesley
episode first and foremost, isn't it?

Rob: It really is.

Um, so it's, you know, everyone getting
together and going, "Well, we've got

this important thing that needs to
be done," and it's all… Like, they

have a, a ready room discussion about
Wesley, about is the boy ready for it.

You know, is, i- is he taking on this?

Are we- is he taking on too much?

Is this to lead him forward to be,
uh, an officer in the Federation, or

is this too soon for him to do that?

Kevin: It's conspicuous to me that at
this point Wesley is an acting ensign,

and I am not sure that, like, it is
normal to give ensigns, let alone

acting ensigns, a taste of command.

But that is the- for better or
worse, that is the plot here.

Like, the line is, "Sooner or later he'll
have to feel the burden of command."

Um, and so I guess it's
something that happens sometimes.

Sometimes ensigns get made team leaders
as a, as a development opportunity.

It's conspicuous to me that none
of his team is ever given ranks.

They stop short of that.

Wesley says several times, "What will it
be like to give orders to someone more

experienced than me or older than me?"

He never says someone higher in rank
than me, and none of these scientists

are given ranks in the script, and
that, that bothers me a little.

It would be clearer to me if they said
these are lieutenants or lieutenant

commanders or something like that.

But for better or worse, acting Ensign
Crusher is put in charge of a team

of scientists, and he, he has to deal
with, you know, how much does he trust

his own judgment, how much, uh, does
he override the opinions of others, um,

does he accept help when it is offered?

Um, and I said the last time we talked
about this episode, I think there is a

strong case to be made that this is Wesley
Crusher's strongest episode of Star Trek

in the, in his entire oeuvre, um, because
I really love how straight this is played.

At the end of the day, like, this
is a very, um, straight telling of

a, a career development narrative.

Like, the, the level of- I I think of this
episode as cozy Star Trek because nothing

scary happens in this entire episode.

There's no villain.

There's no peril really, except maybe
for Sarjenka and her family, but even

that, there is never a sense that
people are about to die or, or, or,

or that there is any peril to any of
the characters we know and care about.

And the fact that it- this is a
pure Starfleet career procedural.

Like, will Wesley learn to be a team
leader is the drama of this episode.

The fact that they were able to do
that with an episode of Star Trek: The

Next Generation here in season two,
and do it successfully, I dare say.

I don't know how you felt
about this, uh, episode, seeing

it maybe for the first time.

But every time I watch it I'm like,
"This shouldn't work as well as it

does," but it really works well.

Rob: It's interesting because it is
in that still those early days of,

of Next Gen. And so it's,
for me, it's very clinical.

It's very clinical.

It's very much we are, you know, in
the middle of a 26-episode season.

So, um, the- there is a big threat.

Like, within this section of the galaxy,
the planets that they are going to

are, you know, decaying and destroying
quicker than they normally would.

And so that's why Wesley had put in charge
of this survey, 'cause they've found this

one particular planet that is decaying
quickly, and they're trying to figure

out why it is doing that, and ultimately
they have to solve that problem.

Yes.

Um, but there's also massive, like,
moral discussion points in here as well.

Um, Picard is not so cynical or not
so clinical and so cold in this.

We see him, his knowledge of horses,
his, um, c- discussions with Troi.

He's almost pleasant to be around.

Um,

Kevin: The conversation about the Prime
Directive with Data on the holodeck

I think is so- This script is uneven.

The, the earlier, uh, scene in the
briefing room where they're talking about

Wesley while he's not there, and, and
there's a line where Picard goes, "And

to extend the metaphor, if he's going
to be a knife, we want him to have a,

a fine edge that does not dull at the
first encounter with stone," or whatever.

And I was like, "That should have
been That is an awkward line," and

you can see, you can see Patrick
Stewart just barely selling it.

It was bad.

Rob: He w- he was wor- he was doing some
heavy lifting there, uh, Patrick Stewart.

Kevin: But later, when, when Data comes
and confesses that he's been talking to

this, uh, this voice on the line, and, uh,
and Picard goes, "Now, Data, her society

is aware that there is interstellar
life?" And he goes, "No, sir." And he

goes, "Oops." Just the oops of like,
is, it's such a soft- Like, you do not

wanna get an oops from Captain Picard.

Rob: I, I almost had to second go
back and rewind because I, you know,

I've got the subtitles on when it's
playing and oops came up when…

Did, did Picard just say oops?

Did Jean-Luc Picard actually
say oops in response?

Kevin: I how soft that is.

Like, you broke the prime directive, oops.

Like, the fact that he would go, "Look,
I'm- you're, you're being honest with me.

I'm gonna be your captain.

We're, we're in this together.

Oops, that was a big mistake, but
I'm not gonna read you the riot act.

You know you did the wrong thing.

"I don't have to tell you any more
than oops, and, uh, we're gonna have

to clean up after this mess." I love
the subtlety, the, the, the softness

of that, uh, way of playing that
scene and, and scripting that scene.

So yeah, s- some stuff I love in this
and, and some not go- good stuff as well.

Rob: There's stuff like that we can-
we can't do anymore, um, because

we just don't have the episodes.

We just have a scene of Wesley, um, Riker,
and Troi walking down a corridor, and it's

a short scene about just talking about,
oh, I don't know, like Wesley's not sure.

It- but it's the, the stages of
his evolution, so then later he

comes back to Riker, who's being
an absolute dog, thank much.

He's…

Kevin: That uh, that extra who
played his date was, was very,

uh, very game, I will say.

Rob: And the extra who he's talking
to has been given the direction

of, "Can you gush over Riker?

Can you gush and blush?"
They're going, "Okay, that's

laying it on a bit too thick.

Did, did- is Jonathan Frakes directing
this episode and saying, 'Could

you give Riker a bit more gushing
love?'" But a scene in the corridor

is it's, it's- 'cause we're- we are
so limited in, uh, in real estate when

it comes to time in modern Star Trek.

We don't have the time to just have this
gradual progression, even over a whole

season, but definitely not an episode.

Every scene has to hit a mark.

So we haven't seen really Scotty and
Uhura's relationship develop, but

we've seen it develop this one episode.

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob: But here we have just a scene that
goes for about a minute and a half, two

minutes, and it's just, "I'm not sure
about this." "Oh, here's a little bit of

advice." There's no big dramatic moment.

There's no big emotional thing.

It's just a conversation.

Um, and

Kevin: huge laying the groundwork
for, for the deepening of the

relationship between these characters

Rob: And then we get, and then we get
an episode which is almost unheard

of nowadays, but incredible to have
the entire bridge crew sitting around

discuss- discussing the Prime Directive.

Kevin: Picard's for- quarters, yeah.

Call a, call a meeting of the
senior staff in my quarters.

That's not something th- Like,
that should have happened more

because that was a great scene,
and I love the vigorous debate.

I loved how much these people felt
free to disagree with each other.

When, when, uh, Pulaski calls Worf
a coward and Picard has to jump in

and go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, Doctor,
I, I, I don't think, uh, that's

what we quite meant here," you know?

Like, all of that stuff of managing
the relationships as people vigorously

made their, their contrasting
and conflicting opinions known.

I love how much La Forge just kind
of got up and went, "You can count

me out of that interpretation of the
law." Like, that stuff was so fun.

Rob: Like Riker is being v- not
dismissive, but going, "Nope, we

don't do it. That's what we're
going," and then Geordi arcing up.

And I'm there going, sitting in
this going, "This is, this is new?

is Something I haven't

Kevin: It feels like, uh, an
episode of The West Wing to me.

Is let, let's most of our screen
time debating an ethical point, uh,

as, as people who, who, uh, work
together, respect each other, love

each other even, but violently disagree
with each other in this moment.

That happened every week in The West
Wing, and this felt like an episode

of The West Wing for Star Trek.

Rob: This was very good.

And th- I know this is before
Piller arrived, and Piller is, is,

is seen as, like, able to shape,
uh, the, the emotional connections

of characters and stuff like that.

But this is a very good episode, and
I know Piller has talked about it

either in his book or I saw it on
a video, about the Roddenberry box.

I don't know if you've heard about this?

How a lot of writers on Star Trek were
frustrated by the limitations of the

box, of, of, of what, the limitations
of what the characters could do.

But Michael Piller saw it as,
"No, let's honor this. Let's honor

this, and what can we explore?
What can we find within this box?"

And he loved the Roddenberry box, as
it were, of wh- how these characters

interact without making it like
a soap opera or stuff like that.

Um, and I see that there.

I see that, and I go, I, I n- I can
see what Roddenberry was going for.

I can see how you take that
view of Roddenberry's future and

have other writers take it on
board, and it's not limiting.

It's quite freeing on
what you can do with it.

Kevin: To bring this back to our topic,
let's talk about the Data-Sarejenka,

uh, connection relationship.

Something I like- Data kind of
becomes a bit of a know-everything,

can-do-everything superhero character
later in this, in this series run,

and certainly into the movies.

But back here, it was f- it's interesting
to see a fallible Data, a naive Data,

one who can make a, a mistake as
big enough, uh, as big as casually

breaking the Prime Directive and then
having to own up to it to his captain.

Um, it, it, it's fun to see Data
kind of like, um, at the start of the

meeting, Picard goes, "Okay, we're
not here to debate how wrong Data was.

Everyone knows Data's super wrong
here, but he's just an android.

We can't blame him." Like, that, that
kind of, um, Data is naive and fallible

and, and makes mistakes is, is an
interesting side that we didn't get

much more of that from this character,
but it, it really kind of worked.

Like, what are we gonna do when our
android, uh, does the wrong thing?

Rob: With, with good intentions, but,

Kevin: Yeah

Rob: Yeah, it would have been g-
like we didn't get much to see

of that relationship develop.

We see the start of it, "Is anyone out
there?" And then it cuts to, you know,

Data revealing to Picard going, "I
built this, you know, connection with

this, uh, with this girl." Um, and so
by the time we finally meet this girl

and brought on the deck, she is, you
know, emotionally attached to Data to

the point of not trusting anybody else.

Um, and that's a, that's a fun scene of
just how annoyed and frustrated Picard is.

Kevin: It's not, it's not that he
says he, he brought a pre-warp, uh,

um, alien onto the Enterprise or onto
the bridge and is, is compounding

our breakage of the Prime Directive.

What he's annoyed by is that once
again, there is a child on the

bridge, and that is something
that Picard just can't deal with.

He's, clearly triggered.

He can't even look at her.

He's like, "I'm gonna look… Everyone's
looking over there. I'm looking over

here, I am gonna keep looking over here
until that child is gone. Someone get

rid of the child, please." It's like

Rob: And he's getting a little
bit, he's getting very sort of like

denial, going, "Get to your station.

Could you get your station?

Mr. Data, you

Kevin: Let's, Let's, all
pretend this is not happening.

I need for this not to be happening.

Rob: But then like after everything's
solved in the next room, he just

goes, "Oh, it's totally fine."
I'm going, "It's not fine.

You clearly showed do not
like that child there."

Kevin: You freaked out, Captain.

Rob: So yeah, that emotional connection
between the two of them, you kinda have

to do a lot of heavy lifting yourself
because we didn't actually see that.

They didn't give that time

Kevin: Yeah, it's open to inter-
it's there to be, yeah, it's

there for the audience to fill in.

It happens off screen, and there's
just a little bit of Data going

like, "She was very specific.

She told me about all her friends and
her family and everything, whereas I

kept things very vague." Uh, and you
can then, you can from that imagine and

extrapolate all of these conversations
that they had of, of Data trying not

to, to answer the question of where he
lives or where he's from or who he is.

Um, but it's fun in the trans- in, later
when she, uh, when she asks him whether

the, the rock sings, and he goes, "Of
course not, because I'm a machine."

And it's not entirely clear whether
that is new information to her or not.

Rob: It seemed like it.

It seemed like just how the response
of her was she's finding out about Data

as this whole process is going along.

She's going, "Oh, okay." Um, but
yeah, uh, fun little trip down

to the planet and, you know, just
with a touch of the, the wall, it

Kevin: The doors, yeah, yeah.

Rob: There's a volcanic
eruption happening.

Oh, let's put the wall back up.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, very green screen.

The, the, the final shot at the end
of Data, like putting the door back

and then turning around and then
calling for beam up and disappearing,

it- you can see all the mask lines.

It is charming, uh, in
its, in its primitiveness.

Uh, and, and yet, you know, for the time
it was, it was a feast for the senses.

Rob: Well, yeah, 1988, so, um, working
on that type of budget as well.

Um, so yeah, it was more… There
wasn't really that emotional connection

with the pen pal relationship as
what the quandary of what that

Kevin: Yeah.

When, when Data is ordered to sever
the link in the meeting in captain's

quarters, and he goes, and he goes, you
know, "Okay, I'll, I'll sever the link,

but I'll make sure to, to turn on the
sound as I do that so that everyone can

hear her voice as we sever this link."
Like, first of all, well-played, Mr. Data.

But I've always wondered, that moment
where Picard says, "Your whisper

from the dark has now become a plea.
We cannot turn our backs," what

was your reading of that moment?

Because I never, I've never quite
figured out for myself, is that Picard

acknowledging that if someone is asking
directly for help, it's an asylum

sort of situation, and the law allows
for us to, or r- even requires us to

answer a c- a direct call for help?

Or is it more that the, the voice melted
all their hearts, and they were like,

"You know what? I can't follow the
Prime Directive either in this moment

because I'm hearing this, this girl in
distress, and, and we can't turn our

backs for, f- at a m- as a moral point"?

Rob: It can be, it can be both,
but definitely because we know

how Picard feels about children,
um, I it was more him just there

Kevin: As long as they're
not on his bridge.

Rob: That's true.

If, you know, if he's broken his
leg and he needs them to, to,

you know, get pins and help out
with the disaster, that's okay.

They're off the bridge, um, no
matter how big their turnips

are or onions or whatever.

Um, uh, but yes, I, for me, it
was that case of this is not

just a random voice in the dark.

This is specifically a call for help,
and we are the Federation, we are

Starfleet, we will help those in need.

Kevin: I like that.

Yeah.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: All right.

Well, um, a- any parting
thoughts on, uh, on

uh, Pen Pals?

Rob: Um, yes, the, the, love the, the,
the young actress doing very well under

a, a heap of makeup and extended fingers.

Kevin: Yeah, I love the fingers.

The, what if, like, the pinky
finger was the longest one?

That seemed to be the brief
for her, her makeup design.

Rob: Uh, yeah, Wesley doing great.

I love, uh, conflict resolution
of going, "Oh, I don't think

we should do that, Wesley.

That'll take too long." "Actually,
I want you to do it." "Okay."

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: Um, but yeah, for me, the, the
revelation was that as y- And that's

the best description I've, uh, I
couldn't clarify it in my head.

It was like The West Wing.

It was them all sitting in Bartlet's
office going, "Let's discuss this,

Mr. President." Um, and I'm there
going, "That's something I've rarely

seen in, in any form of Star Trek,"
and that got me really excited.

I'm going for a show that's, you
know, over n- nearly 40 years old.

Kevin: Great.

Let's talk about, uh, Star Trek:
Voyager, season one, episode seven,

"Eye of the Needle," which I gather
The one you felt like had a more

direct connection to, to Strange New

Rob: episode really, apart from some
great stuff with the Doctor and Kes.

Kes is really good in this episode.

Um, uh, playing that childlike, uh, naive
wonder, but very earnestness about it.

And great stuff about just how
dismissive Janeway was about he's

just a machine, just a program.

Kevin: This is very early Voyager.

I think also the, uh, the working
relationship between Harry Kim

and B'Elanna Torres where she's
like, she's still calling him

Starfleet and it's not ironically.

Like, th- that is still
how she, she thinks of him.

Uh, and the fact that you get the sense
they have never worked together and,

and he's like, "Oh, gosh. B'Elanna's,
B'Elanna's noticing me." Uh, you know?

Th- there is a b- bit of that like, um,
yeah, yeah, s- uh, sizzle to those scenes

together because these characters, I
feel like they've never connected before.

This is the, our first time
putting them together in a

two-shot and seeing what happens.

Rob: And there's because this is an
episode that explores what it is like

to be, um, you know, 70 years from home,
um, the desperation to find whatever

they can to, uh, shorten their time.

And if it means going
course, that type of stuff.

This is where I'm going.

This is what made Voyager

Kevin: Yeah, it was, it was, back
it was a big deal to change course

away from the most direct route home.

Absolutely.

Um, for those don't, and our listeners
who, who may not remember this episode

clearly, this, this is an early Voyager
episode in which they detect, uh, what

is, uh, dubbed the Harry Kim wormhole.

Harry Kim a wormhole, and, uh, they're
like, "Well, wormholes could take us

places. Let's change course and go
investigate this wormhole." Turns out to

be a very tiny wormhole that they can't
squeeze the ship through, but they can

squeeze a communication signal through.

And on the other side, they
find a Romulan ship, uh, which

turns out to be a science ship.

And, uh, and they ask first, they,
they, they try to convince the Romulans

that, A, they are not Federation
spies, and B, would you please take our

messages, uh, to our loved ones home
for us to let them know that we are

alive and well in the Delta Quadrant?

Uh, eventually the, the possibility
of squeezing a transporter

signal through the, uh, the,
the wormhole, uh, eventuates.

And it's at that moment that I remember
the first time I watched this episode

going, "Come on, this is episode seven
of the first season of your Lost in the

Delta Quadrant series. There's no way
they're gonna beam through there." But

the strength of the performances, the gut
punches, and, and peoples being affected

by the news that, A, this might work,
and B, this can never work because that

Romulan ship is in a different time.

Rob: That, that

Kevin: it works so well.

It works so well.

Rob: Um, yeah, I'd forgotten that.

I'm rewatching it going, "Yeah, I've, I
remember this," and I went, "Oh no, I'd

forgotten that he's from 20 years in the
past." Um, and then the next punch of

going, "We had to wait for him to go,"
and Tuvok revealing, "I looked him up.

Yeah, and he died," uh, you
know, "f- four years before."

Kevin: Yeah.

We never, I don't think we ever find
out if those messages made it home or

Rob: I don't think we no.

There's very hard to get
that connection going.

Um, so that's the main thrust
of it, how th- the mechanics of

it, of how to get stuff through.

Then it's, uh, Janeway's great work at
diplomacy of howing- how to navigate

with this Romulan, uh, you know,
suspiciousness, uh, suspicions, uh

Kevin: There are three back-to-back
scenes which are entirely dominated by

Janeway's conversations with the Romulan.

There's the first one where he, he
calls them spies, he says, "I won't

listen to any more of these Starfleet
lies," and he severs the communication

link, and the crew is shattered.

Like, what have they done?

They may have lost their
chance to, to connect to home.

And then there is the midnight call
where they manage to get him back on

the line, and Janeway is, uh, in her
nightgown, sitting in by herself,

hair down, uh, but beautifully
coiffed, um, but in her quarters,

having this, having this one-on-one
vulnerable call with this Romulan,

and she manages to get through to him.

Um, and then the, the third scene
back on the bridge where they, they

talk about the possibility of the
transporter and, and all this stuff.

Like, it, it is, um… The, the
writing is amazing, but the whole

thing rests on the back of an
incredible performance by Kate Mulgrew.

Um, like, if they didn't know that
they had hired the right person to play

their captain, I feel like here in, in
episode seven, they were like, "Yeah,

we hired the right person. It worked."

Rob: The vulnerability of
Mulgrew, that's the, that's the

key word that you brought up.

Just

Kevin: She is completely in command and
yet on the verge of tears in several

moments where it makes you choked up
as an audience, and it happens again

in that transporter room scene at
the end when Tuvok reveals that the

Romulan died before she could- before
he could get the messages to home, and

she, like, is holding back the tears
for her officers standing around her.

She can barely speak with the
emotion, and it is so good.

Rob: And she just goes, "We move on.

We move on.

We keep on going forward." Um, yeah, that
second scene, she is in the dark, in her

quarters, in her pajamas really, w- not,
and she's still keeping her captaincy and

her b- diplomacy, but just that beautiful
line of, "What is your name?" And just

building up through that so you d- you
see that, you know, connection from

across the stars from person to person
and how that communication can happen.

Beautiful good control, beautiful
power, beautiful vulnerability.

Um, yeah, exceptional stuff.

Kevin: Yeah.

And it works, the emotion of those
scenes works so well even though this

is the seventh episode of this series.

And I'll come back to what I was saying
before about Strange New Worlds this week.

That scene with Uhura and Pike in, uh,
Pike's quarters where she is thanking

him for everything that she's done
for him, like, it works because the

performances are there, but I felt
like there is something hollow to it.

That is, they are just saying
that, we have not experienced that.

And then jump here to Kate Mulgrew
in the '90s, seven episodes into her

series, and the emotion to me is at
least twice as powerful in these scenes

of Eye of the Needle, a random episode
of the week of Star Trek: Voyager.

And, and it's, it's
that that I am missing.

It's not, I don't want to blame
Strange New Worlds, that cast, that

crew, that writing team directly.

It feels endemic to how Star Trek is,
has been made in recent years, that

that emotional depth and, and earning
it and giving it the time to land and

feel, feel felt, um, it, there just is
not time with the amount of spectacle

that, uh, Star Trek seems to demand
at the moment for those quiet moments

to really, really sit and be felt.

Rob: Yeah.

Um, and speaking of quiet moments
and stuff like that, the, the B plot,

which is a wonderful development,
uh, early on, uh, with the Doctor.

Um, we see how he is treated by,
uh, one particular crew member,

and so that's meant to be a
representation of all the crew.

Kevin: What a thankless role, hey?

Um, asshole patient.

That's probably what the credit was.

Rob: Um, for me this was, um, you know,
I've never had the highest opinion

of Kes and they didn't really do that
well with her when they m- put her in

a sort of like a interesting romantic
triangle with Neelix and Paris.

That was weird.

Um, but just the, that, that outsider
view of things and looking at things

so earnestly going, "This is a person."

This is a, there is a h- there's
a soul there and it is in pain.

It is not being

Kevin: Yeah, the, the unclouded view
of the Doctor and, and choosing to

be his advocate to the captain, that,
that stuff worked really well for her.

I'm not sure, uh
…Mm-hmm, yep, definitely.

Very, Very, early, like, yeah, he,
he hadn't … Like, he's not very

funny in this episode, and the
Doctor was mostly funny eventually.

Like, as soon as they figured out,
I guess this script preexisted, um,

his casting and, and them realizing
just what comedy gold they had struck.

This is a very

Rob: Yeah

Kevin: um, um, yeah, uh, earnest,
uh, uh, interpretation of the Doctor.

Rob: But just those little subtle
changes of, like, Mulgrew is so good

when she just come-- when after she's
talking-- She's so dismissive with Kes.

Not dismissive, but it's a little
bit going, "Oh, child. Oh, you don't

understand the, the bigger world."
He's just a pro- And then she's there

Kevin: "He's not alive."
She says he, he, he's not.

He's not a person.

He doesn't, uh, and she goes, "But does
he not deserve any consideration at all?"

And yeah, yeah, again, Kate Mulgrew really
sells that moment of, like, she, she

looks struck by the points that Kes has
made, and I would say Kes did not make

her points that strongly that I felt like
they should have shattered Kate's view

of the world or, or, or Janeway's view of
the world in that moment, but, but Janeway

and, uh, by Kate Mulgrew, uh, sold it.

And there's a moment of, like, her sitting
slack-jawed going, "What have I become?

I, I di- I, I didn't even
allow myself to see the the

Rob: Oh.

Kevin: of a crew member.

Rob: The scene with her and Picardo
is, is I think, you know, one

of the highlights of the scene.

It's, uh, uh, not n- not only the
scenes between her and the Romulan, the

main focus of this episode obviously,
but, uh, and for this podcast.

But just her navigating with him going,
"What do you need?" And him there

going, "What is she… oh, okay."

Kevin: I could ask.

Yeah.

Rob: Yeah.

And just, a- and seeing Mulgrew see it
in the v- it, you know, happening for

the first time going, "Okay, let me look
upon this hologram program as a living

soul," and, and her realizing in real
time going, "Oh my God, you are in pain.

Oh my God, you are being ignored
and not being treated well."

Um, yeah, that type of, that
type of stuff was, was magic.

That type of stuff was really magic
when you've got incredible actors,

you know, bringing, uh, their skills
to well-written dialogue and, uh,

yeah, beautifully put together.

Kevin: The last line of this episode
where the Doctor asks for dot dot dot a

name is, is kind of funny to, to watch
in hindsight because he then went seven

full seasons without ever getting a name.

So like a a writer, writer in the early
conception of this show was like, "The

Doctor will get a name, obviously.
This could be a whole storyline."

But no one ever picked up on it
after this promise was made, really?

Rob: I think there was some
explorations of, I've been, I've

been choosing different names.

I

Kevin: I've been looking names.

I've been thinking, yeah, there's a
bit of that, but they never really,

um, completed that arc, I suppose.

Rob: And I think, yeah, he be- he came to
terms with the fact that that is my name.

I am the Doctor.

Kevin: Yeah, it, it felt
like a branding problem.

Ultimately, by the time in, in character
progression it would have made sense

for the Doctor to choose and adopt a
name, the Doctor was such a selling

point for Voyager that they could
not rename their star character.

It would be like Spock
changing his name in

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: He's, he's part of your
brand, so they, they kind of um,

missed opportunity there I felt like.

Yeah, exactly.

Rob: But, um, no, this is that, that,
that fragile connection, which was

the main focus of this whole podcast
episode obviously, is done magnificently

here, is that whole, you know, how
you can form that connection, how you

can break through working together.

The whole crew worked together
to, to, to push this through.

We also-- It's a great part of the
episode ev- of this whole format of

Lost in the Diff- where you can find
out more about, "Well, we'll send

a message to your family," and have
a moment to B'Elanna going, "What

family do you have?" So we find a
little bit about her family structure.

That type of stuff lends to
character development so much more.

I'm going, it was there.

It was right there.

They could have done it, you know, if,
like you've said before, if a Ronald D.

Moore was in charge of this show, what
he would have done with the tension

between the Maquis and the Federation,
but also bring out those characters',

backstories, uh, a bit more clearly.

Kevin: Well, speaking of Ronald D. Moore,
I have also heard some theories that he

is, uh, being tapped and courted to, uh,
lead the next generation of Star Trek

television, and that they just cannot
announce anything yet, either because

the ink isn't dry on the contracts or
they need to allow the current, uh,

guard of Star Trek to finish their job
before they, they undermine it with the

announcements about what will come next.

But what I've heard is Chris Parnell at,
uh, Skydance, who has been put in charge

of streaming television and is a huge Star
Trek fan, and that is part of why he was

given that job, he has worked recently
with Ronald D. Moore on properties like

For All Mankind and things like that.

And so it would make sense that if Chris
Parnell is in charge of making the next

Star Trek happen, one of his first calls
would be to Ronald D. Moore, who he

works-- has worked closely with, someone
who knows Star Trek better than ever.

So w- without wanting to get my
hopes up too high, my hope for

the future is that something like
that is coming, and it is just not

the right time to announce it yet.

But, uh, but if I, if I had to wish for
what would be under my Christmas tree,

uh, for, for Star Trek i- in, in two
years' time, um, to be announced, uh, of

the return of Star Trek or the reboot of
Star Trek or however they want to frame

it, if it had Ronald D. Moore's a, a
name attached to it, I would be pretty

darn excited to see what came next.

Rob: Well, I hate to throw cold
water onto your hopes and dreams and

aspirations, but at the moment, Mr.
Ronald D. Moore is the showrunner

of, um, uh, God of War, which is the
Amazon Prime adaptation of the computer

game, which is based Norse mythology.

And that's, that show is currently
filming its first season.

It's had to delay its filming
because its lead actor, um, Hirsch,

uh, injured himself severely.

They were like four or five
episodes into filming this

Kevin: Yeah.

They gotta recast him and reshoot it all.

Rob: A- th- and possibly with, uh, Dave
Bautista and they've, 'cause they're doing

season one and two back to back because,
um, the relationship between the lead

character and the son is so important,
they need to up age the son character.

So there is this, at the moment, Ronald
D. Moore is in the middle of, of that.

So that is

Kevin: Look, I can wait.

I can.

And I feel like that's kind of how For
All Mankind worked is Ronald D. Moore was

on the ground, um, showrunning and, and
writing episodes and directing episodes

himself in the first couple of seasons.

And then once the train was on the tracks,
he kind of stepped away and allowed the

team to, to, uh, to do it without him.

And so f- I happy to wait.

If it's, if it's two or three years
before Ronald D. Moore is full-time

on Star Trek, I think that'd, that'd
be a, a Star Trek worth waiting for.

Rob: There's also, yeah, Terry Matalas
has finished off his stuff with, uh,

with, um, Marvel with, uh, Vision Quest.

That comes out soon.

M- Matalas is, is a, is a proved, um,
veteran of Star Trek and did incredible

things with, um, Picard season three.

But yes, Ronald D.

Kevin: let Matalas direct a
movie and I'd let Ronald D.

Moore showrun the return to TV.

But, but, um, no one cares what would do.

I just, I just hope that
something like that happens.

Rob: I care, Kevin.

Kevin: Aw, thanks.

Aw.

Well, we are, we are clearly, uh,
thinking of the future, and that,

that's because this will be the last
voyage of Subspace Radio for a time.

Uh, we to return next for
Starfleet Academy Season 2.

By the way, great to see Starfleet
Academy Season 1 finally coming out

on physical media this Christmas.

Rob: We are very happy to hear that.

We are our physical media,
uh, fans and supporters of

the, that, uh, dying industry.

Kevin: Yes, indeed.

And, uh, I cannot wait to crack open
that, uh, that set of discs to watch those

that are already available on digital,
but, uh, but I'm looking forward to

seeing them in, in high, high definition.

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

No compression or anything like
that from the digital streaming.

Nah, bring it all in
glorious, uh, physical media.

Kevin: So yes, early next year is
when you will next hear our voices

if all goes to plan, and we'll see,
uh, we'll see off Starfleet Academy.

I'm hoping, I'm hoping it is a, uh,
stronger, more confident version of

that show that was already, for me, uh,
the, the strongest of the new Star Trek

series that we've had, uh, with po-
the possible exception of Lower Decks,

uh, which is kind of its own beast.

But as far as live action television to,
for me, Starfleet Academy i- is, i- is

the thing that has made me happiest in
the past decade, and I'm really looking

forward to seeing what a second season
of that, uh, could deliver, a- as sad as

I will be to see its, uh, abortive end.

Rob: Of all the, of all the modern
shows that we've reviewed, uh, in our

101 episodes, um, I, yeah, I could
definitely, I definitely got the sense

of, uh, Starfleet Academy was the one
that you were jiving with the most.

You were definitely jiving with that
more than any of the other ones we were.

Kevin: Holly Hunter, Bob Picardo, and a
cast of fresh faces that, uh, lit me up.

What, what else, what
more could you ask for?

Um, I, I, I can't wait
to see what they give us.

Yeah, and Tig.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, we'll see each other early in 2027
and, um, and, and watch precious little

remaining new Star Trek after that.

Rob: And, um, be-between now and then,
I think I'm needing to work out one

thing in particular that I desperately
need, Kevin, and you know what that is?

A name.

Kevin: Oh, we'll find you a name, Rob.

I promise we won't let that slide
too long until no one cares.

Rob: Thank you, Kevin.

Or should I call you Kes?

Be my… Oh, no, that

Kevin: I will be your Kes
any day of the week, Rob.

Rob: I'll try and keep Tom Paris away
from you, him and his lecherous eyes.