Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hey, Rob.

Rob: Kevin, how are you?

Kevin: I'm good.

I'm good.

There's a, there was a new episode
of Star Trek this week, so it's

always a good week when that's true.

Rob: It is, always a good week
when Star Trek is back on our TVs.

Kevin: Wagh!

We are immediately gonna go off on a
tangent of how Star Trek belongs on

TV and it is so good that it is back
in that form in our lives, but maybe

let's save that for another time.

Rob: Definitely.

Let's just say we agree to agree.

Kevin: Yeah, let's talk about Strange
New Worlds, season one, episode eight,

The Elysian Kingdom, which is the
one we are jumping into here with, I

guess you would call this The Cage of
whatever this podcast is going to be.

This is maybe our, our unaired pilot.

Rob: Very much so, very much so, although
I am hoping that we keep our full cast as

opposed to everyone being replaced, except
for one of us being the Leonard Nimoy

of the… That would be a really awkward,
first podcast after this, when it's

just one of us is replaced, going "Hi…"

Kevin: Well, I did wanna warn you
that I'm planning to come back for

the proper show with no emotions.

Rob: Can you really promise that though?

Talking, talking clinically
unemotional and completely logical,

when it comes to Star Trek.

Kevin: I'll still have them.

You just won't be able to see them.

Rob: It'll be an internal battle.

Kevin: Vulcans.

Another topic for another time.

Let's talk about Dr.

M'Benga's sojourn on the
magically transformed USS

Enterprise that we got this week.

Rob: This has been the show that we've
all been talking about as in going and

even a lot of the reviews online have
been going, cuz we've been so used to

over the last couple of years with this
week to week release of TV shows of that

week to week review of it and people
have been have their highs and lows

and ups and downs of particular shows.

But with Strange New Worlds it
was this unique anomaly really

of week one came, everyone went,
that's a really solid start.

Week two, that's a really solid, and
kept on going along and people going this

like we're six, seven episodes in and
they've been just all killer, no filler.

And we are just going this, this
can't keep up that like modern

television just doesn't do that.

We have been trained or we have
learnt from the excessive amounts

of streaming television content.

Kevin: Yeah.

It can't all be good.

Rob: Yeah.

And so episode eight, The Elysian
Kingdom came out and, although not up

to the same standard, as I think some
of the other stories I did enjoy it,

it was very much that you know, you
messaged, you know, had the word bottle

episode, it was a little bit bottley,
cause it was all contained on the set.

It was a little bit mixed up, the episode.

So like it's not that particular
format where shaking things up a bit,

this would be the equivalent of a, a
holodeck, holosuite episode of a, you

know Next Gen or, or Deep Space Nine.

Kevin: If they had had the holodeck,
they might've used it, but they

don't have it, so they got creative.

Rob: So, yeah.

And, and that's something
I'd like to talk about later.

But yeah, I enjoyed it.

I didn't find it to the same, I dunno
if quality or standard is a bit harsh,

but yeah, it was definitely, I loved
it and there was a lot of great stuff

in there, but there's stuff that really
moved me in in, in previous episodes.

But I still think the standard
is, is very, very high.

It was much better than a lot
of other television out there.

What about you?

Kevin: I enjoyed it a lot.

I think I got to the end of it
and said to no one in particular.

I wanna watch that again right away.

And I will, I will agree with you that
it was maybe not as meaningful is the

word I'm going for, or consequential.

It felt a little on inconsequential as
an episode, which is a weird thing to say

about an episode where a child's entire
future existence hung in the balance

and, and changed pretty drastically.

Rob: Well there was a point where I'm
there going, are we going to see our

second child, you know, "fatality" I
do in inverted commas, in the space

of three weeks, I'm going, oh, okay.

Is this the is this the way that
Strange New Worlds is leaning into?

Kevin: Yes.

But I, I think it was the tone
that, that gave it that feel that

it, it was a child's storybook
tone through the whole thing.

And for, for most of this episode,
I was leaning forward going, I don't

know what's going on, but I can
tell they're doing this perfectly.

Rob: Yes.

I mean, I've what I love about these
type of episodes, especially with the

holodeck ones, you've, I don't know
how… because when it comes to specifics,

but from my knowledge of say Deep Space
Nine and stuff like that, these type of

episodes came in a bit later when all
the characters were well established,

whereas we're only eight episodes—

Kevin: I think we're gonna talk about
that of like where in the series does

a "breaking the pattern" episode come,
because I think I agree with you.

There's the early ones that are
meant to be character revealing.

The The Naked Time, The Naked Now those
ones that like lower our character's

barriers really early in the series
to reveal their unvarnished selves.

And we get to know them really quickly.

And there's, there's the late series
ones that are like, the writers are

kind of like, "What else can we do?"

And something wild is put on the table.

Rob: And also, cuz we know the
characters so well, so to take them

out and put them in a different
personality or a Mirror Universe

episode, you go, oh, this is enjoyable,
cuz I know this character so well.

And especially with the
first seven episodes, we've

had a lot of time with Pike.

We've had a lot of time with Spock.

We've had a lot of time with Una.

We've had a bit of time with La'an.

I'm still waiting on my
Ortegas centered episode.

Kevin: She was in this a
lot, but not as herself.

Rob: Yeah, that's the thing.

I was there going, we're getting a lot of
her, but we haven't had much of Ortegas

beforehand, so it hit me well, but if
we'd had that come in, say, you know,

a season two or something like that, we
would've had, okay, now we know all the

crew and this is even more enjoyable cuz
it is so… I mean it was great seeing, you

know, Pike play the sniveling underhanded,
backhanded, Chamberlain type character.

And that was so clear and

Kevin: "Cancel the court jester!"

Rob: Exactly!

Seeing Ethan Peck with very nice, long
hair and the wizard, rugged look, that

was that was particularly impressive.

Kevin: Yes.

Were you disappointed that Spock's
wizard, Pollux didn't do any actual magic?

Rob: It was interesting because I had
so much fun with… I loved Hemmer's

enjoyment of playing the, the magic
side of him doing scientific stuff.

So yeah, it would've been good to
see Spock try that, but then it

would've opened a whole other can of
worms of going, you know is the magic

coming from, you know "Deborah" I'm
putting up inverted commas again,

or but yeah, him just standing there
broody with a five o'clock shadow.

I was all right, mate.

Kevin: My partner, Jess
went, "Mm, yes, please."

And I said I think it's like
"Spock meets John Snow" was the

look that we were getting there.

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

You know, everything…

Kevin: You know, everything, Mr.

Spock.

Rob: …Mr.

Spock.

But there was so much fun stuff in there
and like it was, you know, the, the sword

fighting was great and it's a very Star
Treky thing where, you know, this unusual

fantasy esque type different genre,
invades, the very clinical, scientific,

hopeful world of Star Trek and how they
approach it from that, "Okay, well, we

are in this situation where there are
wizards and there are sword fighting.

Let's look upon this in a
clinical, straightforward

manner and let's solve it."

And so going through those steps, which
has been done in all Star Trek shows when

they have these type of episodes and I'd
love to see how each individual thing.

I think Hemmer embraced it so much more.

Cause of course M'Benga was
doing it more from an emotional

point of view to find his child.

But that play when they go, okay, this
is what we have, this is the parameters

we have and how you play within that.

That's what I like to see when
they start to muck around with it.

Kevin: This episode felt like a flex to
me in, in that like they are showing…

It's almost as if they set the challenge
for themselves this season, how can

we make every episode completely
different from every other episode?

Rob: Very much so.

Kevin: No, two the same.

There is no formula.

The formula is breaking the formula.

Rob: Yeah, it feels very much to me.

I'm breaking into a different
franchise here, like Dr.

Who, Dr.

Who has been able to last
60 years, because it can

adapt to genres so very much.

You know, the William Hartnell era
was educational, historical stories.

The Patrick Troughton era was
monster of the week B grade sci-fi.

John Pertwee era was James Bond, espionage
type action, the Avenger style thing.

And then Tom Baker had three
different genres, but his main one

was gothic horror, which this is.

They've had this established
format, of a better word.

For Star Trek, and they've infused
like, even in the Gorn episode, they

had two genres, they had horror and,
you know, submarine drama going on at.

So they've really gone, this is the
format that everyone pretty much knows,

everyone has their roles, but each genre
is so different from episode to episode,

Kevin: I'm starting to think that
instead of Strange New Worlds,

this is Strange New Star Trek.

On the one hand I don't know what I'm
going to see, and I am here for it.

I am almost disappointed though,
that if that, if this is the show

for that, does it mean that the other
new Star Trek shows are less varied?

Because this, this show is, is
hogging the variety for itself.

Rob: Are you saying there's only, you
know, so much variety that can go around?

Kevin: Yes, Harry Mudd comedy episodes
aside, which Discovery had early on,

all the other Star Trek series, at least
all the other live action ones are very

like "tell one story" season long arc,
and therefore is somewhat confined to

one genre format for, for their stories.

This is the one that's free of that.

And they're doing more than just
telling episodic stories that need

to be wrapped up by the end of
the episode, they are using it to

break the format every single week.

Rob: Yeah, definitely.

And they're still bringing in that
expectation in little increments

that, modern fans have come to expect.

So we are getting those
little, tidbits of story arc.

So we always return to Pike's
dilemma, we return a little bit

to you know, Spock's… we all know
it's doomed to fail, obviously,

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: You know, it's
Star Wars prequel stuff.

We're going well, we know how it's gonna
turn out, but it's fun to see them make

up and break up and make up along the way.

Kevin: Mm-hmm I'm rooting for them,
even though I know it's hopeless.

That's that's what they've achieved.

Yeah, we're talking about
Spock and T'Pring, of course.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: Speaking of character arcs,
that was the biggest surprise

for me this episode is that it
drew a line, at least apparently,

under M'Benga's character story.

Every other character has been set up
with this thing that seems like it might

be solved by the end of the season.

But it feels more like this is the,
this is the question mark, next

to each character for the series.

And for M'Benga's to be wrapped up,
apparently eight episodes in, makes

me wonder, what is this character
going to be between now and when

we see him in the Original Series?

Rob: And, well, that's the thing,
because I mean, I think, correct

me if I'm wrong, he only had one
appearance in the Original Series?

Kevin: I'll go along with that.

I might have guessed one or two.

Rob: And in The Cage they had the
old, you know, almost sea dog, captain

type of doctor who's very much, you
know, you need some, you need some

medicine "Here, wet your whistle" with
handing him a scotch or something.

So maybe they're, yeah, I haven't
heard anything about announcements

or casting or anything like that.

Kevin: No, no!

Don't, I don't wanna let him go.

He's such interesting texture

Rob: Oh no, neither do I.

I think he's a great character, but
there openness there for, you know.

Kevin: I wanna see what's next for him,
because the, the idea, my child is dying

and I'm searching for the cure, felt like
something that could go on for seasons.

And it's, it's gone on
for less than a season.

So what's next?

Rob: We are very much out of that nineties
era, late eighties, nineties era of Star

Trek, where we go, well, we've got, you
know, seven seasons, 24 episodes a season,

so we can go through the process of,
you know, well, Deep Space Nine doesn't

get good until season four or whatever.

We've got this case of no, we've got
10 or 12 episodes for this, I believe.

So it's sort of like all those arcs
that would back in the nineties, we

had the glorious, you know, luxury of
having an arc that would, you know,

come and go for six, seven years.

You know, Julian Bashir's enhanced
human arc went on for the entire time.

Kevin: Worf's family drama.

Rob: Wow that, yeah.

Yeah.

The, the Klingon version of
kitchen sink drama, it's very much.

But yeah, so it's, again, it's that
condensed nature of modern television

that go, what would, what would go over
a season of 24 episodes and probably

over two or three seasons is now nup.

We've had a—

Kevin: No time for it.

Rob: No time for it, showed up over
eight episodes, but it only appears

on and off for about three episodes.

And I found it quite interesting because
he started this journey with Una, but for

most of the episode he was with Hemmer.

But at the end Una came back.

So it's that case of yeah,
where that consistency of his

emotional, you know, connection is.

Kevin: Yeah.

So this, this episode, we got to talking
after we watched it and agreed that the

fact that it blows up the format, or at
least the expected format of an episode

of Star Trek is what stood out to us.

And we thought to go back to the
archives what episodes echoed in that

way for us, were our favorite mixing
it up, subvert expectations, blow up

the standard format of the TV show.

So we've got each our own lists.

I've got at least three I can talk about.

Rob: I've got at least three as well.

Kevin: All right.

So have what's your earliest one in
terms of which series it appears in?

Rob: Okay.

Look, Kevin.

I am gonna, I'm gonna make a
massive confession right here.

My key era for me is Deep Space Nine.

So I've seen that series back to
front, like three or four times.

So all of mine, I just leaned
into my Deep Space Nine.

Kevin: Deep Space Nine.

All right.

Not surpr— like I would say justifiable.

Deep Space Nine was probably the most
creative, trope breaking or groundbreaking

Star Trek series of all time.

So not surprising there would be a lot of
mixing it up, but I'm gonna pull us back

to Next Generation before we go into DS9.

Rob: Do we need to do the,
you know flashback music?

(doodley-doo, doodley-doo…)

Kevin: Yeah, yeah!

Oh, we're gonna get some sound effects.

Don't you worry

Rob: Oh, I don't need to do
the sound effects myself.

How, how cheap is that?

You know, I'm opening up the I'm opening
up the, the sliding doors myself.

I've actually, I'm a stage hand.

(shhhh!)

Kevin: Oh, we need some of those
holodeck doors that, (grrrrrr-krwwww)

Rob: Ha ha ha exactly.

Kevin: Alright.

TNG season five, episode 18 Cause and
Effect is the first one that came to mind.

This is the, time loop episode where
in the teaser, before the opening

credits, the Enterprise is destroyed
in a collision with a star ship

appearing out of a spatial rift.

You remember this one?

Rob: I, I do not.

My TNG knowledge is quite limited,
but you're selling it to me.

Bring on, bring on you know, convince
me to, once I get off this, this

podcast to go and watch it and
go, damn that Kevin, he was right.

Kevin: So yeah, Cause and Effect
is a stuck in a time loop episode.

Rob: Awesome.

Kevin: And an episode of Next Generation
had a teaser and then it had four

acts and in Cause and Effect, each
act was a, a time through the loop.

So the episode starts, the Enterprise
is attracted to a spatial disruption.

They go up to it, a ship comes out
and, and collides into them and

it, and the Enterprise blows up.

Cut to credits.

And you're like, I still
remember— this was early nineties.

I still remember sitting there going,
holy crap, the Enterprise has exploded.

And they put extra money
into this explosion.

It wasn't just the, it wasn't
just the firecracker going

off, overlaid on the model.

It was, they built a model and
filled it with fireworks, and the

nacelles went spinning through space.

It was shocking.

Rob: This is before, you
know, dear listeners.

This is before you know, the reboot
series of movies, where they pretty

much destroyed the Enterprise.

Every movie you just go, well, you if
you blow it up, every movie, we we're

just not gonna be excited anymore.

Kevin: After the credits you come
back and the exact same sequence

of events plays out before…

Rob: Love a time loop.

Kevin: …of the characters are aware that
they are living the same events again.

In fact, people watching this episode
for the first time were deeply confused.

They thought that the TV stations
had gotten it and were playing the

episode from the beginning again.

Jonathan Frakes, who directed the
episode was careful to shoot the

same scenes from different angles.

And it was a kind of a game
of how can we make the same

events replay in a fresh way.

But we see in much more detail, the
sequence of events that lead up to, once

again, the Enterprise getting struck in
space by another starship and blowing up.

Rob: Yeah.

And that's a bold move to, you cuz most
time loop have at least one character

for whatever reason is aware of this.

And then it's their mission to educate
everybody to keep up and what they

are willing to sacrifice to get to
the normality of their timeline.

Kevin: By the third time through the
loop, people are starting to have déjà vu.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: And it's creepy déjà vu.

It's like, I know what's about to happen.

And then it does.

And people have no idea
how this could be possible.

Dr.

Crusher is hearing voices in her
quarters that turn out to be echoes

of past times through the loop
that happened to just concentrate

at that place in space and time.

Anyway, long story short, they realize
the mystery, send themselves a message

into the next loop by means of a
déjà vu that only Data will notice

and manage to avert the disaster.

This is one of many episodes that are
like time loops where someone early

on suggests well, should we just
change course, would that solve it?

It's Worf.

He's like, should we change course?

And, and someone says, we can't afford
to start second guessing ourselves.

We have to proceed as we normally would,
which is a stupid idea if you're stuck

in a time loop, definitely mix it up.

Rob: But if you say it with enough
confidence you know, early nineties people

who are still shocked by the fact that
they blew up the Enterprise will just

go, well, that sound pretty convincing.

They said that pretty.

That person knows what
they're talking about!

Kevin: There's a great YouTube video
called Worf solves Cause and Effect where

it's a 30 second edit of the episode
where they're like, what should we do?

And Worf says we should change course.

And it's the end credits.

Rob: Hit the Jerry Goldsmith.

Come on, let's get outta here.

Kevin: But it's yeah, freaking great
episode because it messes with the format.

Each act is a replay of the
same story, but they are solving

a mystery in the process.

And, and it's got Kelsey
Grammer at the end.

He's the captain of the uh, wayward ship
that's come out from, from the past.

They're wearing Star Trek II
uniforms cuz they've been stuck

in the time loop this whole time.

Rob: Of course that— yeah.

And it's become quite a popular
meme at the moment using that

Kelsey Grammer image with his beard.

Of course.

Kevin: Yes.

All right, let's go to DS9 now.

What's yours?

Rob: Okay.

Well, number three, for me, it,
it causes a lot of controversy,

this one, but I don't care.

I re-watched it last night.

Kevin: Hang on number three.

Is this a count up?

Rob: For me, for me, it's a count up
I'm going and I'm going, I'm going up.

For me, a lot of people
deride this episode.

But I love it.

And I watched it last night and
I just had the biggest smile

on my face the whole time.

Take Me Out to the Holosuite.

Kevin: Oh, yeah!

Rob: Are you kidding me?

Baseball.

Comedy.

You've got Worf at any point, you know,
just, you know, go, what do we do?

How do you play the play?

And you just go "Find him and kill him!"

Kevin: Ah ha ha

Rob: You know, you've got, you've
got Sisko learning a lesson not

to take the game so seriously.

You've got, yeah, it's a bonding exercise
with Ezri getting, you know, she's only

been there a couple of episodes, so
she's trying to reconnect with everybody.

Kevin: Yeah.

This is a late DS9 episode.

Speaking of our, our conversation
before this is season seven.

Rob: This is season seven,
this is season seven.

So I've sort of like mixed
up my, my timeline as well.

I'm caught in a, I'm
caught in a time loop…

Kevin: That's fine.

Rob: …Kevin.

So yeah, I rewatched it and it's a
great mix up of everything it is a lot

of location work or "location work"
(in inverted commas) in the holosuite.

The, you know, the summoning
forth and erasing of crowd.

But it's that whole thing of just
building up the team, you know,

and those later seasons, especially
around five or six, seasons five or

six of Star Trek DS9 is very heavy.

You've got Dominion fighting.

You've got, you know, dark episodes
about how you play out in warfare.

So to have light episode,

Kevin: It was breaking the format of what
had become a very dark war story series.

Rob: They'd shifted from like political
intrigue and also sort of like a lot of

work on Bajor and building up the culture
of Bajor and the culture of Cardassia

and the culture of the Ferengi as well.

But then to take it to that moved
on for about two seasons' worth of,

or even more of this Dominion war
and, you know, going on, you know,

quadrant level intrigue and drama.

So to bring it back to just a petty
dispute between Sisko and a Vulcan.

Kevin: Is it just one Vulcan?

I can't remember.

Rob: Yeah.

It, it, the, the cold, the cold op—
it's a whole team of Vulcans, but and

there's that awkward moment where so like
the Vulcan runner doesn't hit the home

base and Nog's there looking around it.

And, and Odo, Odo, can't say it.

Yes, but they're all sitting down on
the line and Nog goes up, cuz he has to

tag with the ball, one of them, and he
looks around and he says "Which one?"

So he came close to saying
all Vulcans look alike.

He almost said it.

Kevin: I remember he
goes down the line, yeah.

Rob: Yeah.

So it opens with Sisko is visited
by a Vulcan captain of a ship

who's serving on the front line.

And there's tension between two of
them because he's saying DS9 is away

from the front line and then Sisko's
going, oh, we've had, they're like

measuring each other's Starfleet members…

Kevin: This would have to be an early
example of the dislikable Vulcans.

Rob: Yes.

Yes.

They had been, up until that point, sort
of like the Vulcans were seen from a sort

of like quite a, you know revered point
of view, especially when you got, you

know, Sarek and you've got, whenever you
bring Nimoy back, you've gotta, you know,

worship the ground that man walked on.

Kevin: That's what I remember about this
is it was almost sacrilegious that one of

these core races that was this, it was the
favorite character in the Original Series.

They are the villains in this episode.

Rob: Very much so, and very much that,
you know, antagonizing through, you

know, you're just a human and they
also lean into the fact that how

superior strength they are as well.

So because it had been established
that there hadn't been a baseball game

for… There was like an outpost a colony
that started it up, but it, it hadn't

been played for over a hundred years or
something like that, longer than that.

So to have a holosuite program of it,
they challenge each other to a game of

a baseball and everyone gets to try out
and no one's played before, only Jake.

Cassidy, Cassidy's quite good with the,
in the game, but they, they all learn and

it's about, you know, Sisko learning to
enjoy the game, not take it so seriously.

You've got, you know uh, Nog and, and
Rom building their family relationship.

It's a great one just to go these are the
characters that we love for six years.

Let's introduce Ezri into the group
and, you know, find the fun of it.

And it's something like you said that
DS9 could do because it spent so much

time working all their characters and
they had such a uniformly strong cast

of actors to play these characters.

I mean, that's a whole other
episode where we talk about, you

know, certain characters who are
stronger than say other characters.

I'm not mentioning any names…

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Rob: …Harry Kim.

Kevin: We'll get there, but

yeah,

Rob: I'm not mentioning
any clarinet players.

No clarinet players at all.

Kevin: No Ensigns who are
unpromotable will be mentioned.

Rob: …through lack of personality.

I'm sorry.

That was a bit harsh
on that first episode.

Kevin: That was a bit harsh.

I have to say though, it has one of the
hallmarks of a mixing it up episode in

that nothing happens, but at the same
time for the characters so much happens.

Rob: Very much so.

Kevin: The stakes in the universe couldn't
be lower, but the character growth, or

what we learn about the characters by
having them all be fish out of water

for an episode, couldn't be greater.

Rob: Dare I say, Kevin it's about the
friends they've made along the way.

Kevin: …the way.

The way to the ninth inning—
to the bottom of the ninth.

Rob: Bottom of the ninth.

Yeah.

So what's your, what's your number two?

Kevin: I suspect we are
gonna match on this one.

It is Deep Space Nine, season six,
episode 13, Far Beyond the Stars.

Rob: Oh look, I was looking at that one,
but I thought that you would hit that one.

So I, I made a clever tactical move there…

Kevin: Good, good.

Rob: But I'm glad you brought
up, cuz it is phenomenal.

Kevin: If I were ranking these in
terms of level of success as an

episode, this would be my number one.

This is the character where, almost
without explanation, Sisko, who is

down in the dumps about the war,
he's saying those things, starship

captains, and space station captains
sometimes say of like, maybe, maybe

it's time I hung up my uh, my uniform.

I'm not sure if I can take this anymore.

And then he starts hallucinating that
he is in the 1950s and he is a science

fiction writer named Benny Russell, and
these hallucinations quickly escalate

to the point where he is living that
alternate reality or that, that fantasy

in which not only does Sisko impersonate
Benny Russell, but all of the other

characters-slash-actors, regulars in
the show, take on new personas as well.

All of them out of their
alien makeup and, and playing

completely different characters.

And all of them interesting,
rich, likable characters.

I rewatched this one last night and I had
to say, I would watch the show in which

all of these characters were regulars.

Rob: Ah, yeah.

Kevin: If they just wrote a new
science fiction episode every week,

and this like magazine was the
framing device, I would love these

characters to see these every week.

Rob: Like, I was just saying before
it shows just what a stellar group of

experienced actors, they had, you know,
Avery Brooks, Rene Auberjonois, you know,

Armin Shimerman, these guys have, you
know, Terry Farrell who'd been around, she

was a hard working actor guest spots on
Quantum Leap and all these other things.

So you've had serious actors, who'd been
working their asses off for a long time

and they came into this ready to work.

And when they do a silly episode, like
playing baseball, they would, when they

could hit a hard episode like this one,

Kevin: Yep.

Rob: they'd bring their A game.

Kevin: So directed by Avery Brooks,
who was in every scene, if not every

shot almost of this episode as well.

So what a huge lift for, for that guy.

And, ultimately the story is Benny
Russell is inspired to write a

story about a space station and
a black captain Benjamin Sisko.

Rob: And he's a sci-fi writer in the…

Kevin: Sci fi writer, yeah.

1950s, yeah.

And his story is at first rejected because
it is "unbelievable" that there would be

a space station commander who is Black.

And one of his colleagues, I think
it is the one being played by Miles

O'Brien or Colm Meany, he says, "Why
don't you just make it all a dream?"

And Benny goes, "Would
that make a difference?"

And his editor goes,
"Well, it just might."

It's someone dreaming of a better world.

And so the fact that it has not
actually happened, it is someone's

dream makes it okay to put in
print in this time and place.

At least that's what the editor concludes.

And what a powerful allegory for Star
Trek itself that over the years at its

best Star Trek is able to say something
about our society that is not possible

to tackle directly or, or that the
audience will not be receptive to it

if it tackled directly, but they can
treat it as a dream, as an allegory,

as a exploration of the possible.

And the audience is willing to go there.

Yeah, it's fascinating, cuz it's been
sprouted by so many extreme pundits

about since when was science fiction
political or since when was Star

Trek ever political and I'm there
going, pretty much from day one.

And each of them had their own
agenda within that political

message of progress and equality.

Especially in the nineties as well, it
was quite still limited in many ways,

but especially giving that platform
to go, you know what, not only are we

making this big, powerful decision in
the nineties to have a, our captain

be a man of color, be Black, but
also we will deal with those stories.

And they sprinkled them throughout
that seven years of Deep Space Nine

to really show issues, even though
they're in the, you know, the far flung

future, those issues can resonate here.

And this one is, it wears
its emotional heart on its

sleeve and it does it so well.

It's never more front and
center than in, in this episode

and they do so well with it.

Rob: But it's never preachy.

I mean, I'm all for a
bit of a preach myself.

But it is done in such a beautiful way.

It is written so well, so powerful that…

Kevin: This has the same power as
another favorite episode of mine

that we won't talk about unless it's…

Rob: Right.

Kevin: It's not on your list, cuz
it's a TNG episode, but it, it's

The Inner Light, which is many
people's favorite TNG episode.

Captain Picard gets mentally transported
by an alien probe and lives an

entire life based on the historical
records of a now extinct society and

then comes back to himself and only
minutes have passed, but he has lived

an entire lifetime with an entire
family and it is, it is lost to him.

And this Far Beyond the Stars does that
same trick of Sisko comes back and he

has fully emotionally invested in this
other person, this other reality he

has been living as, and now he's the
only person who remembers it and that,

that sense of loss, that feeling of
the last page of your favorite book.

And you can never read it
for the first time again.

It's all that power plus this social
justice message that is, that is

brought to life so powerfully.

In the end, Benny Russell's editor does
put the story forward, but the owner

of the sci-fi magazine has the edition
pulped because he does not like the

story, and in an incredible, probably
the strongest acting moment in the entire

series of DS9, with the camera right
in his face, Avery Brooks breaks down.

I have watched that episode
at least five times, and I

can't watch it without crying.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah, it is absolutely beautiful.

And just the respect that the show
gave to Brooks as an artist and as

an advocate and as a storyteller,
you know and not just pigeonholing

people, going you are this figurehead.

To go, no, you have a voice, you have a
creativity, you have an intelligence and

you can share that and you can educate us
through being given a platform to do that.

And it all comes to a head in
that magical episode in season six.

Kevin: This this episode has a direct
link to Strange New Worlds this week

because the book, the story book,
the Elysian Kingdom has "written

by Benny Russell" on the cover.

So this for the first time establishes
that author, at least in Star Trek

canon as a real person who actually
lived, whereas up until this point, the

assumption was, it was just a figment
of, of the Prophets' imagination.

And so, yeah, real person now, at
least in, in the Star Trek universe.

Rob: Whole chance for a
spinoff prequel series.

Kevin: Yeah.

Wrote DS9 and also wrote
The Elysian Kingdom.

Rob: The Elysian Kingdom.

There we

Kevin: What range!

What range!

Rob: He can do fantasy and sci-fi, but
can he do Klingon, the kitchen sink drama?

Let's…

Kevin: Let's find out.

Rob: That's the challenge
for you, Benny Russell.

Next up, this one relates, I think the
most closely to the Elysian Kingdom.

It's Deep Space Nine season
four, Our Man Bashir.

Kevin: All right.

I wanna hear all about this because
I remember this episode exists, but

I could not tell you much about it.

Rob: So, whereas Elysian Kingdom
leans into the fantasy tropes,

this is out and out Bond.

It is all James Bond.

And coming from someone who's just
finished doing a comedy festival season

in Melbourne with our tribute show to
James Bond, it was, it was yeah, it was a

joy to go back and watch that last night.

So it's similar to Elysian in the
ways of we establish, you know,

we've establishment of all the
characters, something scientific,

something unknown happens.

And so the characters we know
are, their personality is gone and

they are becoming these holodeck
characters on Julian Bashir's James

Bond style holodeck/suite program.

Kevin: Right.

So it really is a direct
match cuz that's so rare.

Like, this thing of characters
being transposed into a

piece of in universe fiction.

Rob: Yes.

Kevin: That's not something
you see that often.

Rob: And it's that thing that I was
talking about earlier, it's that mix

of embracing the James Bond tropes.

So you've got, the saucy name
for the female assistant.

We've got the henchman with the
eye patch, you've got the slightly

"Mandarin dressed", in inverted
commas, evil super genius.

You've got the big board
of the globe lighting up.

All those type of things…

Kevin: There's a casino caper
in this one, isn't… there

Rob: That's a, that's a different
episode, spoilers for coming up,

but we do go to you know, a French
casino and, that's matched with the

people on DS9 solving the problem.

So basically the cold opener is
Bashir acting out his bond fantasy.

In comes Garak, the great Garak, one
of the greatest characters in Star

Trek history coming in and looking at
it going, what the hell are you doing?

We're meant to be having, you
know, our usual drinks and dinner.

And he gets caught up in it when they
come back from the ad break, the, crew of

the runabout is meant to be coming back
to Deep Space Nine, but there's something

going on and there's an explosion.

They can't get out, they try and beam them
out, but while they do they're caught.

And so they have to put all the
programming into Deep Space Nine,

but the memories are not there.

And where are the memories?

All that dense sci-fi/scientific

gobbledygook

Kevin: Some technobabble to justify the…

Rob: Exactly.

So we've got that all going on while
we've got Bashir and Garak acting

out this James Bond style scene with
all the characters that we know.

So Jadzia Dax, Kira, Worf, O'Brien
and Sisko are inhabiting those

characters within the Bond— Well
"Bond", I do in inverted commas.

Just assume listeners, whenever I
say Bond, I'm doing inverted commas.

So the regular actors get to have
the fun, like in the Elysian tale of

playing these different characters.

So Kira is now this Russian agent.

You've got Worf as the number two to
the evil genius and that evil genius is

of course played with so much relish.

I think they had relish had a
slice of ham, add more relish

than another slice of ham.

Avery Brooks, just chewing
all the scenery, which was all

covered in his relish playing
this, you know, mad scientist.

And his inflections and hand
gestures were just outstanding.

So it's that whole mix up and then
there's the scientific explanation

of how we can solve all this.

So you've got, you know you've
got Rom and Odo all trying to

sort out that on the other end.

So it's a great way to—

Kevin: So is there a ticking clock
within the holodeck thing that

Rob: Yeah, the whole thing.

So the safety, the safety's off.

So Bashir has to make sure
that no characters can die.

And a lot of them are playing villains,
so they have to keep the characters alive.

Kevin: So he needs to do the perfect
run of his favourite video game.

Rob: to do the perfect run.

And as he goes along, this is the thing.

So in the Elysian tale, it's the
doctor and chief engineer and they

hadn't really had much time together.

So it's kind of like they find
each other and they go, let's

solve this, which is okay.

And you have fun moments, like,
you know, chief engineer doing the

whole, like I talked about earlier,
the magic, which is actually just

transporting them to the cargo bay.

But this is, you've got an
established relationship.

You've got Garak, you've got Bashir.

They've known each other for years.

And so as they go through this, Garak's
there going, look, you can't save 'em

all, it's better if we can save most
of them, if we have to lose some.

And so it's that whole, they learn
about each other and their emotional

journey is affected by this.

So it's a case of, by the end of the
episode, everyone goes back to normal,

but the great thing about it, and
what all stories should be, Garak and

Bashir have moved forward with their
relationship, which is really powerful.

And of course it ends with
a wonderful nod to to Bond.

So Garak's there going,
we should do drinks.

He goes, "Yeah, well, at
the same place, same time?"

He goes, "No, let's actually do it
within the holosuite," because at the

start of the episode, Garak doesn't
get the holosuite, but he gets it now.

And they go, "Let's do it.

Shall we do another, you know,
Julian Bashir secret agent mission?"

And Bashir goes, "Well, you know,
Julian Bashir secret agent will return."

Just like that.

And that's the end of the episode
and you go brilliant, great.

Tie it up in a little bow.

You've got all your science,
gobbledygook, you've got your fantasy

acting out the James Bond genre.

And our two characters who have been
through it all together, Garak and Bashir

actually evolve and their character
and their friendship strengthens.

So yeah.

Kevin: I'm willing to call it now.

This is the best match
for the Elysian Kingdom.

It's interesting to me that this is
one of your favorite episodes of your

favorite series of Star Trek, and at
the start you were saying the Elysian

Kingdom was not the highest of the highs.

Like, of a series of strong episodes,
it was the least strong for you.

And is the difference really just
where in this series, these episodes

happened because by the time we play
Our Man Bashir, getting to see these

now super familiar characters and
actors pushed into a new place and

having fun with each other in a new
way, that is like it's working for the

audience on like three different levels.

Whereas in the Elysian Kingdom, it felt—
I don't wanna be unkind because I really

did enjoy this episode, but if I were
to try and criticize it, I would say

it felt a little self-indulgent, that
the actors were having more fun than

the audience, because they were getting
to play these one-off wild characters

with wild costumes, and we were like,
oh, we were just getting to know you.

Rob: Yeah, exactly.

And that core journey, it was
just the doctor's journey on

his own to find his daughter.

We didn't have that bond,
like with Bashir and Garak.

So maybe if—

Kevin: Yeah.

Hemmer, Hemmer and M'Benga, they
like in the moments where they

teamed up, it was sweet, but they
were very few, those moments.

Rob: Few, and we hadn't seen
that relationship build.

It would've been more powerful,
if instead of the end goal was to

find his daughter, what if he went
on this journey with his daughter?

So his daughter was there along
the way, as opposed to her being

the mystery that he had to solve.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: So that could have been this, their
final journey together was doing this

actually reenacting their adventure.

Kevin: Okay, cool.

I'm gonna move forward to
Star Trek Voyager, now.

I'm glad we're gonna come back to
DS9 for your favorite, because this

for me is the weakest of the bunch.

And I bring it just because it is such a
departure from the formula of this series.

And in that, it is perhaps the
most unusual episode of Star Trek

ever, and that's saying a lot.

I struggle to see something that
isn't almost not Star Trek as much

as this episode, which is season
five, episode 23, 11:59 which is a

story of captain Kathryn Janeway's
ancestor, who, on New Year's Eve, 2000.

So December 31st, 2000, gets
wrapped up in a we'll call it

a, a local zoning conflict?

She is driving across America
in a broken down old car.

And she barely makes it into
this town on fumes in Indiana.

And it just so happens that in this town
they are building what is to be called

the Millennium Gate, which is going to
be, built on earth, a experimental habitat

that is a prototype for future Mars.

So it's a self-contained biome.

And they're gonna build it in this town
in Iowa, but to do it they need to knock

down a bunch of local community buildings.

And there's one holdout, the
old man with the bookstore who

doesn't believe in technology.

He's not gonna sell!

He doesn't want to hear about
this future on other planets.

He thinks there's plenty of problems
to be solved right here on Earth.

And he's not going to sell.

This guy's name is Janeway.

And Kathryn Janeway's
ancestor ends up marrying him.

But that doesn't happen in this episode.

The framing device is in the future
on the, on the, on the Starship

Voyager, Kathryn Janeway is telling
the story of her ancestor and it

turns out she's got it all wrong.

The story has been passed down through
generations, by her family, and it

makes this person into a larger than
life hero, who single-handedly made the

Millennium Gate project come to life.

She lobbied for it.

She changed minds.

She did designs.

She was the driving force.

And then we see through flashback that
this impression is completely incorrect.

She was just a normal person.

She was a trained astronaut,
but she never flew.

She just happened to be in the
right place at the right time.

All she did was convince this guy
to make room for the future and

agree to sell his bookstore so
that the project could be built.

And, in the framing device, Janeway
discovers this truth, is disillusioned

that the past she believed she came from
was a myth and is depressed because of it.

And then the crew rallies around her
by, late one night over coffees, just

telling stories about their own ancestors
and their own mythical backgrounds,

and then convincing Janeway that the
fact that her ancestor inspired her

to become an explorer in Starfleet,
makes her a hero all by itself.

And almost the truth
almost doesn't matter.

It's the stories that
drive us that does matter.

This episode of Star Trek mostly
takes place in the year 2000, which

at the time this aired was only
one and a half years in the future.

So the, the things they were predicting
like the Millennium Gate, and there's

a, there's a quote I love, "We can email
every computer within a hundred miles.

It'll take just a few hours.

It's easy!"

they were, they were making up science
fiction about 1.5 years in the future.

And never before has Star Trek played
so close to the future with stuff

that they knew would be proven wrong.

And so immediately everything they set
up would become fictitious, um, past

cannon rather than hopeful future cannon.

There is no science fiction in this,
apart from the fact that people are on

a Starship in the future telling stories
about this, the framing device is in

our Star Trek universe, but the bulk
of this like three quarters of this

episode takes place in, effectively,
the here and now, about ordinary

people, driving cars and using laptops
and arguing about um, city planning.

And, uh, it is so weird.

Kate Mulgrew, she
underplays it beautifully.

It is different mannerisms
and a different personality.

She's a lot more low status.

And it's interesting.

I'm not sure it's a strong enough
characterization that I invested heavily

in the futures of any of these people.

And this is why I say
this is a weaker episode.

I feel like it really hinges on you caring
about these people in the year 2000.

And I don't really end up caring about
them by the end of the episode, sadly.

But it is beautifully produced.

The actual, like, cinematography
of snowy winter nights in Indiana

and a failing bookstore and
construction equipment, blockaded

by one man holding back the future.

It is beautifully shot.

It is a gorgeous episode to look at, but
ultimately I think it fails as a story.

Rob: Yeah.

I do remember that one vaguely
with my watching of Voyager.

And I always found that, we, as Star
Trek fans were very blessed, but a lot

of us are, sort of like, have seem to
have forgotten how lucky we were to get

an actor of the quality of Kate Mulgrew
for the time we had her on Voyager.

Kevin: And we still have
her today in Prodigy.

She's back!

Rob: Yes.

Voice over and all.

Give her her own series.

Come on.

Let's see.

Let's see.

Admiral Janeway.

You know, she's done her time
on Orange is the New Black.

She's ready to get back into it.

Kevin: Yeah, Admiral Janeway.

I don't know if you've seen the season
finale of Prodigy season one, but Admiral

Janeway, spoilers, makes an appearance.

Rob: Oh,

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: That's on my—

Kevin: In the flesh, not the hologram.

Rob: Oh, excellent, good.

That's what we want to hear.

Good work.

Well done, Star Trek.

But yeah, my number one is, yes, we
mentioned it earlier, from season seven,

it's the last great, fun episode before
we go into the heavy S H I T of the

final six or seven episodes of the final
season of DS9, Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang.

That is, and it— Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang
is one of my favorite episodes of Deep

Space Nine, of Star Trek of all time.

It is heist.

It is set in the 1960s in the holosuite,
cuz during the final couple of years

of Deep Space Nine, they introduce
the character of Vic Fontaine.

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: The lounge singer at Las
Vegas played by oh, James Darren

from The Time Tunnel *mwah!*

Kevin: What's The Time Tunnel?

I don't know…

that

Rob: Tunnel, great show from the sixties.

Basically forerunner to all the
big time travel shows later on.

Time Tunnel, basically, two guys
work at the military installation,

practicing time travel.

They get stuck in a machine
and they travel through time.

They're stuck in this time tunnel
and each episode, they land in a new

period of time and their scientists
and medical team back in modern

times are trying to pull them back.

Kevin: This sounds very familiar.

This sounds like Quantum
Leap before its time.

Rob: It's very much Quantum
Leap before its time.

It's the same company that did Land
of the Giants and stuff like that.

So yeah, it only ran for a season,

Kevin: I had no idea he
was a genre stalwart.

Rob: Yes he was.

And, yeah, so it was a good tip to the
hat to the sci-fi that came before.

So basically at this time,
the setup is Vic Fontaine's

holosuite is running all the time.

So he is a hologram that is
aware that he is a hologram.

He broke his programming, pretty
much, and he knows that he is just

a mix of photons and electrons
and light and stuff like that.

He is aware that he's on a, he is
a holodeck program on a spaceship

in the middle of a big universe.

And they all come to visit him
and it becomes the new Quark's.

Kevin: Poor Quark!

Rob: Poor Quark.

But he's got big plans ahead for him.

So it's been on all this time and
during that time, there's something

called a jack-in-the-box, which is if
it's open too long or it runs too long,

this new program is initiated to "mix
things up", I say in inverted commas.

So just outta the blue, Vic's
there, singing a song in

front of Julian and O'Brien.

Um, But then instantly everything changes.

Saucy dancers come out and there's
a lot more of a rough crowd and

it turns out that this program has
been initiated and Vic's program

has changed and he's lost his job.

And this gangster has taken over the
casino where Vic works and he isn't

allowed to work at any other casino.

So they get in contact with the
guy who created the program.

And the only way you can break
the program is actually within

the reality of the holosuite.

So they all get together, cuz they've
all of the crew of Deep Space Nine

have been affected in some way.

Nog has recently lost his legs,
spoilers air during the war and

Vic helped him go get over or deal
with his post-traumatic stress.

Kira and Odo finally get together
thanks to the help of Vic and his

sultry singing, all this type of stuff.

And so they all agree to help
Vic out, to come up with a heist.

And the only one hold out who has
never been into Vic's bar is Sisko.

And this relates back
to your second choice.

It takes a while for Sisko to reveal
to Cassidy, cuz Cassy loves going to

Vic's, why don't you want to go there?

Why don't you like it?

And Sisko reveals it's 1960s.

Kevin: Of course!

Rob: It's 1960s America.

Sure.

You'd let,

Kevin: You weren't welcome there.

Rob: …welcome there.

We're allowed to perform there.

We were allowed to be the janitors,
but we were definitely not allowed to

be a customer or anything like that.

And so it's a whole discussion
about this is what it should have

been and Sisko going, it's not
real and all this type of stuff.

But in the end, Cassidy sort like
convinces him that, this is what we can

do and where we are and where we've come.

And so Sisko helps out and
it's got this beautiful shot.

You've got like a brassy big band
version of the Star Trek theme, as

they slow motion walk through the
promenade, all dressed up in— Yeah.

And just as they walk in the shot,
the camera angle's close, you've got,

and Avery Brooks knows how to sell
it, just as he comes into shot in,

close up, he just flicks his collar.

Ah!

And they go in and all the thing of
usual heist movies happen that everything

doesn't go according to plan, but how
they improvise their way through it.

Don't wanna give too
much away, but I have!

At the end, you get to hear the
beautiful singing voice of Avery Brooks

as he sings along with James Darren
and they sing beautifully together.

The Best is Yet to Come.

Yeah I love it.

It's one of my favorite episodes.

There are some darker, deeper,
like Pale Moonlight is a great

episode, Beyond the Stars.

I love Trials and Tribble-ations,
all this great stuff.

Duet from season one, incredible
dark powerful episodes, the silliness

of Trials and Tribble-ations.

But this one for me, it's, so earnest.

It's so earnest.

There's so much time there going,
we need to do this for Vic.

We need to help Vic.

And they're also Star Trek earnest
about a hologram, which I love.

Kevin: Yeah.

It's another episode where like the big
picture story, the consequential stuff

in the season-long arc is put on pause

Rob: Again, it's that whole thing
it's, much to do about nothing, but

that investment, they put into this
hologram and it's played so beautifully.

It's a great change cuz everyone in
Star Trek for the most part speaks in a

similar way or they address each other in
a similar way, even if they are friends

or if they're enemies or if they're
lovers, Star Trek has a, especially

within the nineties had a small parameter
that they worked within, but bringing

in a character like Vic Fontaine opens
up just the way he speaks in that 1960s,

Vegas singer style, all the nicknames
and phrases just mixes up how they all

address it and having that balance of
them like Bashir and O'Brien speaking very

earnestly in 24th century dialogue to, Vic
Fontaine's "Hey, Pally, what's going on?"

It's a great fun episode before
we go into, the resolution of

seven seasons of Deep Space Nine.

It's the last fun episode before…

Kevin: I'm reminded – it's not a fun
episode, exactly – but I am reminded

of the third to last episode of Voyager
where the fate of Nelix is decided.

So this comedic character who lives in the
mess hall and like Vic Fontaine is like

the unofficial counselor for the crew.

And he helps people work
through their problems.

He doesn't really have a place in
the ultimate denouement of that

series of how they get home to Earth.

And so two episodes before the end,
they find his people living on an

asteroid colony of some kind, and
he makes the hard decision to,

stay with them, to stay behind.

And, and this character literally
gets off the ship two episodes

before the end of the series.

And yeah, it feels very much the
same of look, this is all going

somewhere, but we owe one of
our, one of our side characters,

almost, an ending of their own.

Rob: Yeah.

Yeah, and it's also that case of
all those elements that they used

in, Our Man Bashier of the gimmicks.

So it's all the gimmicks of,
and all the, of the format of a

heist movie, which are one of my
favorites, Ocean's 11, The Score,

all those type of great heist movies.

It's got all those elements there.

So you.

The lead in of how it's meant to go.

And then when it starts to
play out things go awry.

It's a, yeah, it's a cute
little mixing things up a bit.

So the characters put in that
situation and so how they play up,

whatever role they're playing is

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: a great deal of fun.

Kevin: Should I read anything into
the fact that when musing on what are

episodes of Star Trek that broke the
mold or broke the format, all three

of yours were holodeck on Deep Space,

Rob: Well, it's a, it is a case of, I
need to watch more than just, the original

movies and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

But it also that case of, especially
cuz I was thinking about it, within

the nineties, the holodeck became of
like the magic instrument that they

Kevin: It's the one impossible thing
that makes interesting things possible.

Rob: Exactly.

And so that means they could do all this
type of genre stuff, character swap around

and they could do scientific gobbledygook.

And so I'm there going, they didn't
have the technology yet in the

original series era or pre original
series for Strange New Worlds.

So how do they get to that point?

And they literally use the thing of it is
the "mysterious" (read in inverted commas,

magical) being within a mysterious – wink,
wink – magical mist, who can do all this

type of stuff, can completely change the
set, can completely change characters.

So that would be explained away in
Next Gen and stuff like that with the

holodeck, but here they don't have that.

So they go it's an omnipotent creature
that is intelligent so far and

advanced, we don't understand it.

So we perceive it as magical.

Kevin: Yeah.

Awesome.

Ah, what a marvelously varied.

Six episodes to go down memory

Rob: Very much so.

And thank you for giving me a list.

Giving me at least a
Cause and Effect to go

Kevin: yeah.

Rob: out.

Kevin: essential Cause
and Effect is essential.

We've got two episodes left of
Strange New Worlds this season.

I don't know about you, but I'm
not ready for it to be over.

Rob: No, No.

Yeah.

Are yeah.

You kidding me?

Come on.

Let's go back to the nineties era, let's
get 20 let's knock out 24 episodes, easy.

Kevin: Yes, please.

Rob: But I'm very much looking forward
to doing this again and, having our

debrief on the most recent episode and
what springs from our mind that connects

us back to the broader Trek universe.

Thank you,

Kevin: Likewise.

Thanks Rob.

Talk soon.

Rob: Kev.