Subspace Radio: a Star Trek podcast

Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

It's me, Kevin.

Rob: And it is me, Rob.

Kevin: and we are here today to
discuss Lower Decks season three,

episode five, our reflections.

Rob: "Reflections of the
way love used to be."

I've just had that stuck
in my head all day.

Kevin: I don't recognize that song
and it's no judgment on your singing

Rob: No, no, no.

I think it's a Diana Ross song.

Kevin: Not the sort of trivia
you were expecting to be

quizzed on in, in this podcast.

Rob: Look, you know what, we throw
each other curve balls all the time.

Pop culture is an expansive,
regenerating beast.

And that can involve
whatever we perceive it as.

Whether it's Diana Ross or whether
it is, you know, the antics

of Rutherford and his mind.

Kevin: What a perfect segue into this
week's episode, which seemed inevitable.

Rutherford's implant,
what's the deal with that?

They left it there just long enough
that I had honestly forgotten about it.

Rob: We've been focusing so
much on Boimler and Mariner.

Oh, by the way, let's focus
on Tendi and Rutherford.

He is the character in the background,
and then they did the old switcheroo,

and they went, now he's the main focus.

Kevin: He's only in the background because
they're not ready for us to get too close

to him and discover his secrets just yet.

We had seen the shadowy men looming
over him with the light behind them.

And so we knew there was
some secret, shadowy past.

But I don't know about you, Rob.

I feel like they did a remarkable job
of making a show of us finding more

out about Rutherford, but we actually
found out very little about him.

Except maybe like, what
a dick he used to be?

Rob: That's the main thing we found out.

We found out that 10 years ago
Rutherford was an absolute douche bag.

And we're very glad he's
all okily-dokily now.

He's all Flanders'd up.

Kevin: I had that same thought.

The difference between Old
Rutherford and New Rutherford

is a DNA injection of Flanders.

Rob: Which, you know, uh, when it
comes to genetic engineering within

this Federation is illegal, of course.

Kevin: Hmm.

Rob: One thing I noticed, you've
noticed in recent episodes, the quality

of the animation, particularly like
shots of the Cerritos and other ships.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: I was particularly impressed with
just certain shots and the sequence at

the end of, uh, Rutherford's battle in
his mind, a light from above shines down.

It's just a beautifully
put together scene.

The sequence of him ascending back
up into consciousness was beautifully

rendered and beautifully realized.

I was watching it going, this
is really good Star Trek.

It just so happens to be animated.

But it was done in that beautiful,
poignant way that in many live action

versions come out as quite clumsy.

Like with Torres going up against
her human and Klingon self

came a bit clumsy, but this,

Kevin: Oh yeah.

Rob: this was actually— There's
some magic stuff in there.

It could have been a little bit cheesy,
but it was a beautiful composition of

the shots and the sequences and the tone.

It was very affecting.

Kevin: They really knew how to
push at least my buttons and make

me really hate old Rutherford.

Like they bring out the Delta Flyer
and it's like, Ooh, the Delta flyer!

And he immediately starts making fun
about how lame the Delta Flyer is.

And it's like you shut
your mouth, old Rutherford.

The B plot of Boimler and Mariner um,
doing the recruitment booth on the planet,

I think, was the sweetener in the episode.

High comic value, relatively
small part of the episode.

I think I will look back on that as
my favorite part of this episode,

of just watching Boimler fiddle with
the model starship on the table and

accidentally break its engines off.

It was so good to watch these
two try to recruit for the

Federation, and come up against
every form of objection imaginable.

Rob: The conspiracy theorists, the
gamers who trap people inside games.

"Stop trapping people inside games!"

Kevin: Plenty of DS9 references
for you in all of that.

Rob: I was incredibly happy.

References to the Ferengi, to the Grand
Nagus's scepter, and yeah, you know

you're in pure Star Trek world when
the cool people are, the archeologists.

Kevin: That's Right.

Rob: Damn, I wish I'd be
as cool as an archeologist.

Kevin: I almost thought that like rogueish
archeologists could be our topic for

this episode, I look back and there's not
that many, they're just very prominent.

Like Vash in The Next Generation who
is briefly the captain's girlfriend

and then ends up running off with Q.

She's just this like
memorable recurring character.

I think that's who the character
in this episode is based on.

I think in my mind, Star Trek was
crowded with rogueish archeologists,

but it was really just the one.

Rob: Just one.

I particularly like that we
saw the genuine fear of Mariner.

That Mariner finally has been brought
down a peg and all that stuff that

wasn't really present in season one.

Like the fear in her eyes that she
doesn't want to go Starbase 80.

Kevin: I'll be honest with
you, I'm almost disappointed.

I had gotten used to Mariner being
untouchable and unflappable, and on

the one hand it is satisfying, but
it kind of makes her like every other

character of that type that we've seen.

And I had gotten used to
Mariner being a weirdo exception

that was afraid of nothing.

I can't let the mention of Butt Bugs go
by without highlighting that that is an

episode that I've mentioned previously
of The Next Generation called Conspiracy.

It was back when we were talking
about horror episodes of Star Trek,

and that is the TNG episode where
they went too far, with admirals of

Starfleet being possessed by what
is now forever known as a Butt Bug.

That episode ends with a
promise of that being picked up.

After the conspiracy is resolved, the
camera kind of sweeps out into space and

we hear the ominous signal of the aliens.

And meant to like tell
you they're gonna be back.

And they have never been back because
I think they knew they went too far.

That episode was not actually very good.

No one wants to see the Butt Bugs
again, but Lower Decks can bring that

sort of thing back as a punchline.

Rob: Um, what season was that of Next Gen?

Kevin: For the record, I'm guessing
season two and I'm looking it up.

Let's see if I'm right.

Season one, episode 25, right
at the end of the season.

Rob: Right.

Yes.

I thought it was, um, cuz I
haven't seen that, I thought

there was like the big menace but,
yeah, clearly it was Butt Bugs.

Kevin: But back to Rutherford.

We were inspired by his shadowy past,
that has yet to fully reveal itself to us.

Rob: That's true.

Kevin: We know that there are some
people who did something to him

and hope that people don't find out

Rob: And they've made him a nicer person
and a functioning member of society.

Oh, the darkness of the conspiracy.

Kevin: That's gonna be hilarious.

If after everything, it was a shadowy
experiment to try and make people nicer.

Rob: Look, I wouldn't be disappointed
if that's how it turns out.

Kevin: Not Completely outta the
realm of possibility, on this show.

But yes, it's sent us looking for other
examples of characters whose past was

initially hidden to us and that over the
course of multiple episodes, sometimes

multiple seasons or even an entire series,
we get to go on that arc of discovery

with the character and find out where
they're from, how they got to where they

are, and what the shadowy mystery is.

So do you have anything from
the original series, Rob?

Rob: I do not.

I do not.

Do you have anything from T N G?

Kevin: I do.

I have a character from
the Next Generation.

Rob: Look, after doing so many of
these, we are picking up a pattern.

I know what you can be leaning into and
you know exactly what I'd lean into.

Kevin: I knew exactly what to
steer clear of because I know

where you're going this, Rob.

But my first entry is Data, the Android
on the bridge of the Enterprise.

Very early in The Next Generation
they start exploring his background,

to the point where I suspect that
was like part of the character bible.

Not only is he an android on the
bridge of the Enterprise, he's the only

android, and that's a little mysterious.

It's not like the holographic doctor
we get in Voyager, where it is implied

that this is a standard feature
of every ship in the fleet now.

Data is an anomaly, and the
crew around him are figuring

out what to make of him as well.

Riker is asking curious questions
in the very first pilot.

What's your deal?

Why are you trying to
whistle like the humans do?

And so that mystery is planted early
in the character and they explore

it throughout the series from the
very first season to the very last.

I think Datalore, which is episode
13 of season one, is where this first

comes to a head, and the Enterprise
visits the planet Omicron Theta,

where Data was first constructed.

Data's creator.

Dr.

Noonian Soong worked there and
famously created the first Androids.

We return there and discover, in a
closet, the parts of Data's brother Lore,

who turns out to be an evil, slightly
imperfect, but emotional version of Data.

How did this come about?

What were the uh, events
that led to his creation?

Rob: It's just a gift of a
character that just grows.

And like from that early pilot episode,
they tell and show at the same time.

So Roddenberry described data
as, well, he's Pinnochio.

He wants to be a real boy.

And they say that I think within the
first five minutes of Riker meeting

him he goes, You're Pinocchio.

But how the character developed and grew.

And you find out the
basis for his creation.

And it's something that
evolved over decades.

They were bringing in new stuff, even
in the movies with how he deals with

emotion, how he with Insurrection,
how his malfunction is his morals

kicking in, going, what we are
doing to these people is wrong.

That type of stuff is really cool.

And to find out why there is only one
of him is a fascinating concept that

is something that you can dip into
every once in a while and then let the

brilliance of Brent Spiner just, go
wherever the hell he wants to take you.

Kevin: In season four, Data meets his
father, who it turns out is not dead.

He's just a very old, very made up
Brent Spiner, who before finally

shuffling off the mortal coil,
bestows Data with an emotion chip.

Data uses the emotion chip when it serves
the plot, leaves it on a shelf when they

would rather Data continue to be Data.

Rob: One of my favorite lines in Star
Trek history is in First Contact,

when the Borg have taken over the
Enterprise and Data has got his

emotion chip in, and they're walking.

I'm feeling all these emotions,
anxiety and fear and stuff like that.

And, Picard just goes best
if you turn off your chip.

And he goes, Yes, sir.

And then he goes, Data,
sometimes I envy you.

It's done so beautifully.

It's still—

Kevin: It's done so beautifully
and at the same time like to try

and explain that scene to someone
who has never watched Star Trek.

They are never gonna understand it.

It is the ultimate had to be there moment.

Rob: You're gonna have to have
watched, all these episodes

of the Next Generation series.

You need to have watched Generations, I'm
sorry, where he does his "Open Sesame!

Humor.

I love it."

You need all that to get to the payoff.

Kevin: Who's your first
character, Rob Lloyd?

Rob: My first character is from Deep
Space Nine, and we're looking at a

character who started off very dull
and boring and actually became more

and more interesting the more we
find out about their checkered past.

And I'm talking about
the great Julian Bashir.

Kevin: What?

Oh, you've shocked me.

Not the DS9 character, I
thought we would be looking at.

Maybe you've got another one in the oven.

Rob: That's my only DS9
character for this week.

Kevin: I thought for sure we
would be talking about Odo and,

and what is a changeling and
who are the changelings and all…

Rob: Look, that's a multi arc
episode type of exploration.

My, my love of Odo will
span this entire podcast.

Kevin: We'll find plenty of other
opportunities to talk about Odo.

Let's talk about our good doctor Julian.

Speaking of Data, by the way, Julian
Bashir reawakened Data's dream

subroutines that his father left to him.

Another one of those little
morsels of the past that enabled

him to blossom as a character.

Rob: Beautiful.

Look at that connection.

So Bashir came into it as
quite a green character.

Like he wanted to come out to
the frontiers of space, cuz

his life was too safe and easy.

Um, he was a bit of a hound dog.

Kevin: But a hapless one, like I feel
like at least at the beginning, his reach

exceeded his grasp by a fair amount.

Rob: Very much so.

He is not your, James, T.

Kirk, who is successful and
confident with the ladies.

Bashir is constantly tripping
over himself, and a bit more

grovely and weaselly than,
than he would like to let on.

But he's kind of like a nothing
character, you kind of ignore him.

And it isn't until Doctor Bashir, I
Presume, the episode where we meet

his parents, and we find out he was
not originally the brilliant, amazing,

incredible, medical mind that he is
and that he was genetically engineered.

Kevin: I like how you planted that
seed for us earlier in the episode

when talking about Rutherford's
personality, manipulation.

Rob: Arcs, I'm all about the arcs.

Kevin: Yes, genetically manipulated.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm
pretty sure that was the original

reestablishment of the status of
genetic manipulation in the Federation.

Like there was Khan, exiled
from Earth in the mid 1990s

and returned in Star Trek II.

But apart from that, it was just kinda
left there as a fact of the future of

humanity that we tried it once, genetic
manipulation, and we learned our lesson.

But they brought it back as a huge
wrinkle in the character of Julian Bashir.

Rob: Yes, it was like this
underground, black market type thing.

I mean, we all remember the nineties
about being big pants, big shirts,

and big genetic experiments.

That was how the nineties were for me.

I don't know.

How bout you, Kevin?

Kevin: Yeah.

Oh, uh, of course, uh, every weekend.

Rob: So yes, it was laid there, the
dark times of the 1990s, where genetic

manipulation got carried away and
there was great warfare and darkness

and so, to bring that back in, it's an
interesting concept to bring to Star Trek.

Cuz it seems Star Trek is a very pure,
optimistic, hopeful view and very much,

um, not as a derogatory term, but like
meat and potatoes version of sci-fi.

We're explorers and we are
doing good stuff and, you know,

we're about the utopian future.

Whereas genetic engineering gets into
that murky, dark cyber punky type

of William Gibson style of sci-fi.

So, ingraining that into this Star
Trek world is an interesting balance.

And I think they, they get that balance
quite nicely with Julian Bashir.

Kevin: It feels to me like a
substitute for racism in a way.

Star Trek is like, we cannot vilify races.

We are evolved beyond that.

We are a post racism society
in the 24th century, but those

genetic manipulation people, boy,
they are the garbage of humanity.

Rob: But how it is explored, these parents
who just wanted the best for their child,

but Julian didn't have a say in it.

And so he isn't the way
that he wants to be.

And so battles through the course of seven
seasons, how he comes to term with it.

And there are future episodes where other
genetically engineered characters are

brought in, and how they haven't coped
as well with their genetic enhancement,

cuz Bashir is the shining light.

It worked perfectly.

So there's just a, a hair's whisper
of difference between a success

with generic engineering and then
creating a misfit within society who

has to be imprisoned and researched
and doesn't have any freedom.

So yeah, I wanted to explore a character
who was not very interesting to begin

with, and this added layers to him.

And I mean Alexander Siddig is incredible,
and shows his range and quality as an

actor over the course of that season
of how he morally comes to terms with

what that means for his personality
and who he should have been or could

have been, and all that type of stuff.

And he handles it in a beautiful,
truthful, emotional way.

He's a great realistic actor.

He's not playing it for
a Star Trek genre style.

He's playing it, the real drama of it,
and it elevates Julian to a higher plane.

Kevin: It's a fascinating contrast to
Data, where clearly the mystery was

premeditated in the creation of Data's
character at the start of the series.

Whereas Julian Bashir, it feels much
more like you said, they wrote him as

kind of like the playboy doctor that
all the ladies would fall for, and that

it didn't really work on the screen.

And then he sat there as, I think you
said, a bit of a nothing character.

I'm sure they found it difficult to
create an interesting story because

their original plan for him didn't
seem to work, and they created this

new story for him that blossomed.

And not only was the story interesting
and satisfying, but it brought out

new colors in the character that
made us lean forward as an audience

and empathize with him more in ways
that he wasn't empathetic previously.

Rob: Very much so.

Like he had a deep, dark secret
and he was afraid to share it.

And that seemed to be,
a great way to do it.

Kevin: My next character
is from Star Trek Voyager.

And we are talking Seven of Nine.

Rob: Okay.

Oh, you don't wanna go with Harry Kim?

That's fine.

Okay.

Kevin: Nobody cares, Rob.

Nobody cares.

Rob: …bagged again!

Kevin: He does.

I feel so bad cuz I, I like the actor and
honestly, I like the character as well.

Everything he does is
perfectly genial and enjoyable.

Is the the version of the
character that has taken on a

life of its own in pop culture.

That is what we are bagging.

The actual onscreen character, the work
done by the actor has all my thumbs up.

Rob: Well, I'm very grateful that there
are some people out there who give

their thumbs up, uh, to Harry Kim.

So yes, let's look at the incredible
Seven of Nine played brilliantly by

untrained actor and model and just
brought into be a bit of eye candy and

she knocked it outta the frigging park.

Kevin: Freaking nailed it.

Rob: A standing ovation
for Jeri Ryan, please.

Kevin: Yes.

Premieres in the season three
finale and season four debut,

Scorpion part one and two.

The mystery of Seven's origin is
established in the very first episode

after that two parter, Season four,
episode two, The Gift, which is mostly

about Kes, but this is where Seven is
still all dressed up in her Borg, and this

is the episode where she gets her catsuit.

Rob: That's only used one episode.

It's in most of the publicity images.

Kevin: Oh, the original…

Rob: …silver one.

They only use it for like one
episode and then they put her

in, well, the more comfortable
and I do that in inverted commas.

yeah, other comfortable catsuits.

Kevin: Well in that episode, it is
established that she was originally Annika

Hansen, and was assimilated as a child,
and therefore her re-assimilation into

humanity will likely be challenging.

I don't know if you would call it a
mystery initially, but the idea that she

was assimilated as a child does plant that
seed of, well, what was the story there?

Rob: It's very tragic.

It's incredibly tragic.

Kevin: They pick up that thread just four
episodes later, so I feel like they had

this plotted out, at least to this extent.

Season four, episode six, The Raven
where Seven starts to hallucinate a

black bird and being chased down the
hallways of Voyager by Borg drones, and

gradually realizes she is reliving the
events of her assimilation as a child.

She ends up leaving Voyager and
tracing to the site of her family's

crashed ship, the Raven, and
therefore discovers her origin story.

It is heartbreaking.

It is implied to be heartbreaking.

I feel like in this episode, the initial
resolution of this story, there are

a couple of shots of like her father
being dragged away from camera by a Borg

drone, as a young girl screams for help.

It is mostly implied and the trauma is
there to be seen on Jeri Ryan's face.

But we don't actually get the full
story until the following season in

the two-parter Dark Frontier, season
five episodes 15 and 16, where the

crew of the Voyager plot a raid on a
Borg sphere to steal a transwarp coil

and use it to get home more quickly.

Seven is assigned the task of
reviewing her parents' logs, which

apparently they, collected from
the crash site in between scenes.

And it turns out her parents were
scientists studying the Borg.

And they followed a Borg cube through
a transwarp conduit into the Delta

Quadrant where they continued to shield
themself from detection and conduct

duck blind studies of Borg in their
natural habitat onboard the cube.

It all has that sense of foreboding,
of this can only end badly.

Rob: This is not gonna end well.

Kevin: And indeed it does.

As the technology fails them in a
critical moment, they end up fleeing

for their lives from a pursuing
Borg cube that shoots them down

and assimilates them, as a family.

It's kind of this three beat thing of
establishment of mystery, we understand

the broad strokes of the facts, and then
we actually get to go there and relive

it with, Seven in the following season.

It is not the central
mystery of the character.

Like I'd say when people think of
Seven of Nine, they don't think

first of the mystery of her origin.

They probably think first of whether
she will become a productive member of

the crew, whether she will take orders
from Captain Janeway and accept her as

the inevitable mother figure she needs.

That is probably what people think
of first with Seven of Nine and—

Rob: It was very much they were
setting her up as the rather

warped version of Eliza Doolittle.

So can we take this, you know, urchin
from the streets of the Delta Quadrant and

bring them into proper Federation society.

But as always with sci-fi, you
connect it back to a human element.

That's far more delicious and incredible
to witness the horror and the trauma and

the tragedy of all this lost opportunity.

And the hubris of the scientists,
who thought that they were in

many ways untouchable and putting
their daughter at risk just for

the fascination of the scientific
discovery about these creatures.

And she became the gift that
kept on giving and it's made even

more remarkable by the fact that,

Kevin: Untrained actor.

Rob: untrained actor who was brought
in purely because she was a model,

and Jeri Ryan goes, I got this.

I can…

Kevin: This happens really early
in connection with this storyline.

The moments where she is remembering
her past, or getting hints of Annika

Hansen, her whole presence changes.

Her whole voice changes.

She speaks in an emotional tone that
is not present most of the time.

And it is, it is not overplayed?

It is played subtly and truthfully and
touchingly, with a level of skill that I

would not expect from an untrained actor's
third, fourth episode of television.

Rob: Just incredible stuff and to
have her alongside some truly great,

experienced actors and you can see that
she's just springboarding off them.

What she's learning off Kate Mulgrew,
what she's learning off Robert Picardo

is just, you know, outstanding.

And so it wouldn't have worked
if she wasn't a good actor.

You would not believe any of this stuff.

If, you know, you'd be a bit
cringy, you'd be a bit, okay.

They're trying.

If she didn't knock it outta the park,
the tragedy and weight of her loss

is so much more powerful because she
just commits to it a hundred percent.

Kevin: Let's go to your last character,
which obviously is Elim Garak.

Rob: I do wanna talk about Garak,
cuz Garak is one of greatest

characters created in Star Trek,
and he doesn't get as much focus.

And his story arc is incredible.

Oh my God.

Oh—

Kevin: Another time.

Rob: With the Obsidian Order.

Kevin: Spies in Star Trek.

Rob: Love it.

Love it.

No, again, I'm dipping my toe
into my favorite of the new

series, Strange New Worlds.

And we're looking at yes, Una
Chin-Riley, or Number One, who didn't

have a name until this new series,
didn't even have a name for her

appearances in Discovery season two!

Kevin: They enjoyed that mystery, and
I'm almost disappointed they let it go.

Like, I feel like it would be a
delightful thing that only fans noticed

that she was never given a name.

They could play with that so many ways
of people like almost saying her name,

or almost seeing her name somewhere.

But I guess they felt like they
did it every way they could.

And then they finally, they
owed the person a name.

Rob: Exactly.

Kevin: …was be a regular character.

Rob: So they've added so much with a
character who just appeared in The Cage,

the rejected pilot of Star Trek, with Mrs.

Roddenberry herself, Majel Barrett.

And so they've recast it with
a wonderful Rebecca Romijn.

You wanna talk about an actor doing
an incredible job within a sci-fi

genre type thing, her work in the
first two X-Men film, ah, amazing.

Kevin: Mark my words, she has
more gravitas of command than even

Captain Pike does in this series.

Like, I would follow her into
battle before I would follow Captain

Pike, who, who is a bit of like the
nice dad, but I feel like when he

needs someone fired, he sends Una
Chin-Riley down to do the dirty work.

Rob: Yeah.

Gotta gotta get rid of
that guy over there.

Could you, uh, you
know, let him down easy.

I've gotta work on my pirate impressions!

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: So this is another
interesting way of doing things.

So with Data, they laid the groundwork to
reveal this character as they went along.

With Bashir, they had one idea that didn't
work, so they laid in this other track.

With Seven of Nine, it's not so much
a mystery, it's more of a, the reveal

of the tragedy of how they got there.

Whereas with this, they had a
character who's already appeared,

but they needed to take it more than
just being a title, and they needed

to build a character behind it.

So what they built in.

When in doubt, like they did with Bashir,
let's build in genetic engineering.

Not only do we give her a
name, we give her a species.

She's Illirian and the Illirians are
banned from the Federation because their

entire culture is founded on genetic
engineering and improving yourself.

So we find out through the course
of the first season, she has lied

to be in Starfleet, Pike finds this
out, and he defends his friend.

He's known her for years.

And he realizes she's not defined by
where she is from, but who she is.

And so much so that becomes the big
cliffhanger for the end of season

one, that her identity is revealed and
she has taken away by the Federation.

And Pike has got that look
in his eyes, determination,

he will get his friend back.

Kevin: How do you feel
about this storyline, Rob?

Rob: Look, I'm actually okay with it,
and it does create a good connection

between her and La'an, both being from
a genetic engineering type background

and there's a good connection between
them and there's some beautiful scenes

between the two of them, looking
upon everybody else within the ship.

One of my favorite moments in Sherlock,
the Steven Moffat version of Sherlock

Holmes, which I never really liked,
but there's a beautiful moment in

the season two where Holmes and his
brother Mycroft are sort of like

looking around at everyone and go,
how do these people function with

emotions and all that type of stuff.

And there's a similar moment between
the two of them and some great moments

of charm when they're going… when they
find out the competition, within the,

Kevin: Enterprise Bingo.

Rob: Enterprise Bingo.

Um, but that beautiful moment where
the two of them of these elevated

level of genetically enhanced
life forms are looking around

and going, how do they function?

Kevin: I have to admit, this storyline is
one of the aspects of Strange New Worlds

season one that I'm most ambivalent about.

Um, it is the, cognitive dissonance of…
Increasingly, with each season, with

each series, modern Star Trek is leaning
into the idea of inclusiveness, and that

diversity in all of its forms is something
we have learned to celebrate, and we

accept every person on their own merits.

That is like hammered into the
scenery with modern Star Trek in

a way that I firmly believe in.

And just like I was saying before
that the stigma against genetic

manipulation is like the substitute
for racism in the Star Trek universe,

in modern Star Trek I can barely bring
myself to believe that that sort of

prejudice would exist in that universe.

If you are so accepting of diversity in
all of its other forms, including like

holding your worst enemy to your chest
and making them a part of your crew,

how could you possibly sustain a blanket
grudge against anyone who would dare to

change their own genome in the name of
science or the betterment of the species?

I'm not sure I buy this
story in today's context.

But the more I sit on it, the more
I have to admit it was well written.

It was well played.

If you set aside the one impossible
to believe thing that people would

be prejudiced against genetic
manipulation, if you accept that one

impossible idea, then it's a great
story with great characters, and

maybe I should just get used to it.

Rob: I think you are warming up to it
just in the monologue you were just doing.

You were convincing yourself
as you were talking.

It was beautiful to sit
here and watch going.

I don't even need to be here,
but I'm happy to be the audience.

Kevin: Ultimately, what's gonna matter
to me is do they tell a worthwhile story

with it or this just a cheap way to add
a character's vulnerability to what seems

like an indestructible first officer.

Rob: Yes.

And I mean, they did have the episode
focus on the Illyrians, so obviously

we got a little taste of it, but again,
it'll be a case of finding out more

about the culture, finding out more
about Una, and finding out that backstory

of her and of her culture as well.

Like our tribute to David Warner, his
one speech about the Cardassian people

is more information than we received
over the entire seven years of their

appearances on Deep Space Nine, in many
ways, about how their culture evolved

and how they were saved by warfare.

So it's gonna be very interesting if
they can inject that level of, like

with the Kelpiens as well, how we found
out about how their race has evolved.

And that's what we need to do now with
the Illyrians, and we need to find

that tangible justification for why
the Federation is so opposed to it.

And this is putting it in the front
line of the storytelling, now,

cuz it's the cliffhanger of season
one is about getting her back.

So it's not just about getting
her back, but making her accepted

within the Starfleet community,
and why that prejudice is there.

Cause at the moment it's just
a case of, oh, it's wrong.

Kevin: I'm curious how big of a
thing they're going to make of this

because it was a twist in the very
final moments of that last episode.

And it could be that they're setting her
up for a season long arc, or it could be

one of those twists like Lower Decks did
to us this season, it's resolved in the

first 10 minutes of the following season.

Something that has caught my attention
is that between seasons one and two of

Strange New Worlds, they are publishing
a comic book miniseries called Strange

New Worlds: The Illyrian Enigma.

And the blurb for that, this is a,
a mini series that is kicking off

in December, and tells a story in
the gap between the two seasons:

"Commander Una Chin-Riley, first
officer and helmsman of the USS

Enterprise stands accused of unlawful
genetic manipulation by Starfleet.

Sparing no time, Captain Pike
and his crew set out in search of

evidence to prove her innocence."

Now, I assume they're not gonna
resolve this in a comic book because

that is not Star Trek's style.

If they put a question on screen, they
give you the answer on screen as well.

So this is probably going to be like
an interstitial story, adventure

offscreen that is completely
optional, and vaguely non-canonical.

But it is being co-written by one of
the uh, producers of the TV series.

So it is close to canon.

Rob: I assume we'll get back to the
season and they'll go, you know, all

the heavy lifting will be done in
the comic book and so they'll just

arrive going, what have you found?

Kevin: Yeah, I think you're right.

The other thing that's fascinating about
Una Chin-Riley's mystery is no matter what

happens, the crew of Deep Space Nine still
have to be scandalized by the discovery

that Julian Bashir is genetically
modified a hundred years from now.

So, how is this going to be
resolved in a way that leaves

space for the space racism to come.

Rob: Ah, space racism.

Kevin: Now we don't have to do our
episode about racism in Star Trek.

Rob: We'll just go off and watch
Star Trek VI, which is great.

Kevin: Well, we have ended our
investigation of mysterious

backgrounds with another character
just like Rutherford whose full

mystery has yet to be resolved.

Uh, so the, the mysterious
character backgrounds continue.

Rob: Don't you worry Odo and
Garak, we will get to you in

more detail in future episodes.

Kevin: Before we go this week, I did
wanna take a moment to mark the passing

of our very own Kai Winn of Bajor.

Louise Fletcher passed this past week.

And what an amazing actor.

I struggle to point to any other
recurring guest star in Star Trek

who was as formidable and celebrated
and actor as Louise Fletcher was.

Like, that is the big guns
showing up on your starbase.

It was amazing that was
willing to do that job.

Rob: It's a sad state of the industry,
isn't it, that an Oscar winning actor for

one of the most incredibly powerful and
understated performances in cinema history

couldn't get regular work and spent the
next three or four decades of their career

jumping about from TV work to TV work,
and barely getting any cinema work again.

Which we would look upon as Star
Trek fans going thank you so

much for slumming it with us, but
elevated the quality of the show.

I mean, there's so many incredible actors
on Deep Space Nine, in my opinion, more

so than many other Star Trek shows.

Just the quality of the actors
they have on there, and Louise

Fletcher is the perfect example.

Kai Win is not just a one note character.

From her very first appearance,
there are so many layers to her.

She's not just blind ambition.

And what they did with her
character in the future seasons

and stuff like that is incredible.

Just adding to all that she is.

Such a master of the craft.

And it's such a shame that her part
of popular culture is not being as

celebrated as it could, because she's
just a superstar of a performer.

And just the range and depth, some
of those lines that she delivered

to Nana Visitor as Kira, done with
such warmth and charm and calm, but

the venom behind it was incredible.

Kevin: The innocent smile and
the knife in the back at the…

Rob: Knife in the back.

And then the frailty she
shows herself later on.

Like she's such a powerful figure in the
early seasons, but then the vulnerability

she shows when her and Gul Dukat, who's
in disguise as a Bajoran – you have to be

there – shows her vulnerability as well.

Kevin: I love that they gave
her so much to do in this show.

I would not be surprised if they
wrote the character and went,

Wouldn't it be great if we could
get a Louise Fletcher type for this?

Wouldn't that be incredible?

Uh, does anyone know her agent's number?

She'll surely say no.

I really only know her from One
Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and

a very similar character, Nurse
Ratched in that seminal film.

likewise is the most evil villain
you can imagine, who is absolutely

convinced that she's doing the nicest
possible thing for everyone around her.

Rob: Star Trek was not a slum for her.

She did Exorcist II:
The Heretic, all right?

There are many levels to slumming
and, uh, we are high level slum

when it comes to Star Trek.

Kevin: They took that archetype of Nurse
Ratched of the smiling villain who is

absolutely convinced they're in the right.

And they gave us multiple seasons
of television to extend that story

and go, well, if that character is
true, then where does that take us?

And we get to see the vulnerability
that we never saw in Nurse Ratched.

We get to see her challenged in ways that
we never saw Nurse Ratched challenged.

And it is so much richer a character
and experience because of it.

So recognizing what she did well and
giving her an opportunity to build on

it, I love Star Trek for doing that.

Rob: The format of Deep Space Nine allowed
this character to not— If she appeared on

Next Generation, would just be a one off
episode and then gone, like David Warner.

But with Deep Space Nine being set in the
one location, the reoccurring appearance

and the growth and the development
of Kai Winn is the perfect example.

When you go, why set
Star Trek in one place?

Here, you get to see this
character grow and develop and

become this overarching villain.

But there is so much
more to them than that.

They become this 3D, living,
breathing entity that you can

sympathize with at some times,
be aggravated by, be angry with.

Louise Fletcher as Kai Winn justifies
why Deep Space Nine needed to be set

on a space station in one location.

You could not have had that glorious
development of a character if it was

just trekking from place to place.

Kevin: The memory alpha page for
Louise Fletcher calls out many of

her credits, and the fact that they
intersect with other long running guest

stars, and small players in Star Trek
cannon, because of course they did.

The one that stands out to me as
I'm scrolling right now is that

in 1994, Fletcher co-starred with
David Warner in the thriller Tryst.

Rob: Ah, well there you go.

That would be one of the
seek out and, uh, explore.

I'd be interested to see what
other, like C or D grade movies

she made in the eighties.

It's a real shame.

Just go through that and going, Oh,
scraping the barrel right there.

But she always brought it.

She's incredible in whatever she did.

Kevin: Kai Winn.

We salute you.

Rob: And go on with the Prophets
and, uh, may you walk with them.